PVE - Is malice now useless for p/p deadeye ?

With malice no longer providing a damage increase, is it now useless for p/p deadeyes ? It seems like only a rifle deadeye can make use of malice now. I only use the p/p deadeye in pve.

It's not useless per say since Malicious Sneak Attack uses the malice. The problem is the lack of ability to stealth to use it without wasting a skill slot just for the stealth. Basically, P/P needs a total rework with the new DE changes to even use the new system effectively which is why I recommended Silent Scope also cloak if you are using P/P when you roll. At least, P/P will be able to use the sneak attack at that point without wasting a slot.

Dagger dagger also doesnt use malice. Basically no decent damage build is using malice unless you're just playing for fun and say to heck with caring about performance.

Good thing a second weapon set exists that could offer you access to stealth and the rest.

@Blocki.4931 said:Good thing a second weapon set exists that could offer you access to stealth and the rest.

That should not be needed or required though. If their goal is to have sneak attack be used for all weapons, all weapons should have easy access to stealth either as a trait or a skill used for that weapon. Saying just use another weapon set is a cheap cop out excuse.

P/P pretty well needs Mali 7 now and if in PVE you really do not need LOTS of stealth , just some. Trait SMELD and that gives two stealths in 45 seconds which is an extra 21 INI in that time period. I do not see SMELD as a waste of a slot in any case when in Pve. You have to put something in the ELITE slot and I really do not see why any of the other elites would be preferred.

As far as the other 3 utility slots go , the DE spec offers good choices for PVE in a p/p build. You likely would want RFI as one but for the other two outside the heal when one compares what available from DD to DE as far as P/P builds go , I find DE has better suited utilities

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Good thing a second weapon set exists that could offer you access to stealth and the rest.

Why should every playstyle cover every possibility? A second weapon set can be used to set things up etc. It's like you're not making use of some part of your kit and that doesn't seem very good to me. What's worse off is taking 1 pistol in 1 set and the other in the second set and then just weapon swapping to make use of sigils/traits to restore initiative or whatever

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Good thing a second weapon set exists that could offer you access to stealth and the rest.

If their main focus for DE now is stealth, then yes every weapon set should allow the possibility of stealth easy. Relying on another weapon set to set it up is poor design since each weapon should be a stand alone. Good or not to you doesn't matter because that is not in the best interest of P/P which has been quite stale for a while now. It needs a better rework, and the DE rework is showing light on its flaws.

Yes, that style of P in one and P in the other also needs some work as well, but relying on other weapon sets is not the answer. If they want the players to use stealth now with every weapon set, they need to provide easy enough tools without relying on stupid 45 second cds like Shadow Meld. It needs to be easier to access and more fluent if that truly is their goals.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:Good thing a second weapon set exists that could offer you access to stealth and the rest.

It's like you could almost argue that, had they not changed malice at all, this disruption wouldn't have occurred and that the purpose of the change was merely for the sake of change.

@Zalavaaris.5329 said:Dagger dagger also doesnt use malice. Basically no decent damage build is using malice unless you're just playing for fun and say to heck with caring about performance.

It does, you just don't want to stack it. One of the reasons that dagger/dagger has pulled ahead compared with pre-patch numbers despite the nerfs to group buffs (which, tbh, was badly needed and we need further nerfs on spirits and banners imo) is that Backstab gains a 10-30% DPS boost each time it is used. That with Perfectionist and Iron Sight pushes the total buff to Backstab beyond the 21% of old maximum Malice.

The only problem is that you want to ignore the new Malice stacking mechanic and the synergistic M7 trait. It is bad design.

As for the topic at hand, yes. There isn't much point to Malice for P/P exclusive builds in PvE due to the weird hybrid nature of the weapon and Malicious Sneak Attack having little improvement above Sneak Attack and the difficulty of accessing stealth with P/P.

Thank you all. I did not see the new malicious sneak attack skills added to thief but it still looks like I won't be using it often seeing how it adds torment. I play a power unload build :)

@Haziq.3907 said:Thank you all. I did not see the new malicious sneak attack skills added to thief but it still looks like I won't be using it often seeing how it adds torment. I play a power unload build :)

The torment from Malicious Sneak Attack is completely inconsequential, yes. One unload cycle does more damage than that will ever do. Especially to a power build, but to any build, really.

So, yes, to answer the OP: Yes, Malice is completely useless for a P/P Deadeye.

The fact that ArenaNet has changed this elite spec to completely eliminate the usefulness of its generated resource is beyond me. I can't believe this got past QA.

Yeah pretty much... I miss the damage bonus of max malice for Unload.

Malice is completely useless to me now. The elite spec went from mediocre but still fun to bad and unfun. Now I have to wait several months for the chance that they'd revisit and re-balance. To think I was so surprised and happy back when they patched Malice to not reset on mark refresh. They dun screwed everything up now.

Have you tried using Mercy?

It converts the Malice to initiative, break stun, and allows you to mark again. It's great for using M7 multiple times a fight.

Malice is not useless now. It's a lot more fun to play with and has allowed me to pick up d/d and d/p for the beefy backstabs. Sorry that the super cheese one button p/p build was killed.

@uraldum.8513 said:Sorry that the super cheese one button p/p build was killed.

A spec's/weapon's shortcomings or inadequacies are not the fault of the player base... they're the fault of the game developers. There's no sense in getting pissy with those of us who enjoy playing with a particular weapon and pointing out things that don't work effectively (like Malice being useless for us now).

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@uraldum.8513 said:Sorry that the super cheese one button p/p build was killed.

You are kinda right, but you should just know that this build requires no skill. That is all. So I do not mind if Malice does not work for that build anymore.

Malice might be useless, but marking your target still gives 10% damage buff from Iron Sight. And Shadow arts can trait your steal skill to stealth you so you can use malice if you want to sacrifice a dps trait line instead of a utility. But not particularly fond of the changes

Torment on the sneak attack is NOT mediocore in a condition build. It can easily deal 6000+ damage from one skill use in a pure condition build. That it not as much as "unload" is immaterial as it condition. In a purely power build it does less in the way of damage to be sure, but that is the nature of weapons shared between damage types.

If you do not want 21 extra initiative in a 20 second period then do not take any stealth utilities and you will not get it. You will have some 7 less potential unloads in that period. Added to that you have less potential uses of the other skills outside the UNLOAD which exists in the set. With the Iron sight add and Premed the real loss to damage out from p/p is around 6 percent. This easily made up for by dumping malice via stealth to fuel in more INI. Added to due to might even that 6 percent old style eaten away at via torment. In a build with NO condition damage might will usually be perma stacked to 25 stacks (and easier to keep there because of a higher pool of INI with "built in " boon duration). This results in your torment running full duration off sneak attack doing around 2200 against a moving target. This eats away a great chunk of that 6 percent.

Claiming "malice does nothing" is like complaining that your Coupon for "free bacon and cheese" on a burger does nothing when the location selling the Bacon and Cheese Burger no longer charges extra for the same.

I have always used p/p as a supplement to my alternative weapon. With these changes this works MUCH better and what I can do with that higher ini pool when switching between the sets is much more effective. If i do stay in p/p for any length of time for whatever reasons , that higher INI pool gives much more flexibility within the set as well simply by using the Elite Smeld to dump malice once it stacked. If in open world PVE you can in fact drop TR entirely now and take DA and CS instead using the INI return via the DE spec to churn out significant damage. Here the Combo of mercy and Smeld for multipe resets of Malice to lever Mali 7 will all but DOUBLE your INI pool over a given time period.

@Specialka.7290 said:You are kinda right, but you should just know that this build requires no skill. That is all. So I do not mind if Malice does not work for that build anymore.

You may not mind it, but I do. It's a generated resource, the primary resource available to the Deadeye... it should do something.

@babazhook.6805 said:Torment on the sneak attack is NOT mediocore in a condition build.

For open world PvE, a P/P build is a power build, not a condition build. I can do ten times the damage of a fully Malice-loaded attack with the torment debuff by Unloading once.

Again, this is a resource that was working fine in the last build... this patch removed that. People may complain that P/P is a very low-skill type of weapon combo but (A) it's a lot of fun and (B) it used Malice as a builder to increase damage on a target. Now all of that is gone. They could fix this very easily by allowing the Deadeye trait that grants stealth to a dodge roll using a rifle to also include the pistol... voila, problem solved.

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@Specialka.7290 said:You are kinda right, but you should just know that this build requires no skill. That is all. So I do not mind if Malice does not work for that build anymore.

@babazhook.6805 said:Torment on the sneak attack is NOT mediocore in a condition build.

It does not need it. Deal with it. Rifle DE got bigger problem and should be fixed first.

@Specialka.7290 said:

@Cameryn.5310 said:

@Specialka.7290 said:You are kinda right, but you should just know that this build requires no skill. That is all. So I do not mind if Malice does not work for that build anymore.

@babazhook.6805 said:Torment on the sneak attack is NOT mediocore in a condition build.

Or you can fix both at the same by adding the stealth roll for P/P as well which will make it easier to access the sneak attack which is the main focus for the rework. Both are important whether you want to agree to it or not, also drop the aggressive deal with it act. I get it that you don't like the P/P from all the posts I have seen, but denying people that want P/P at least usable is not the way to go due to misplaced hate for P/P.

@"Specialka.7290" said:It does not need it. Deal with it. Rifle DE got bigger problem and should be fixed first.

Well that's really nice, isn't it? "Deal with being unhappy, you're screwed." I am certainly glad you're not in charge of this game.

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:Or you can fix both at the same by adding the stealth roll for P/P as well which will make it easier to access the sneak attack which is the main focus for the rework. Both are important whether you want to agree to it or not, also drop the aggressive deal with it act. I get it that you don't like the P/P from all the posts I have seen, but denying people that want P/P at least usable is not the way to go due to misplaced hate for P/P.

Exactly. The fact is, there are a LOT of thieves who play with the dual pistols weapon set, as evidenced by the people who have posted in this forum as an example. I sincerely doubt ArenaNet would put a weapon option into the game and then completely disregard it... that's not the way they operate here.

Like it or not, P/P is a GREAT weapon set for open world PvE (I don't PvP or WvW) and the deadeye spec gives the P/P thief a great range steal option. It was working perfectly FINE before last week's revamp. And the stealth roll would certainly fix the issue I (and others) have now.

You do not need to have a great build for Open world.

I do not understand what ppl finds fun in a one button build. I tried it for a few hours, but it is even more boring than the malice system with rifle before the patch.