The discussion over Mesmer/Necromancers is now just an excuse for bad teamplay.

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

But I'd rather cry about how I ran straight into scourge sewage and died.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

I'm sorry I can't hear you because I'm too far away from everyone else. Ooooh a butterf...

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

You can almost hear the screams...

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

See...and that's the thing....you're SUPPOSED to run into that sewage because that's how conquest actually WORKS since that sewage just happens to be where the capture point is!

Also, this "circle jerk" isn't as pronounced as people think it is. Scourge is broken, mirage is broken. All PoF specs are broken. Scourge and mirage just happen to be the more broken ones.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

The more "pronounced" ones finish faster. Those professions have gotten lowkey hate since Gw1 for their playstyles. As had Thief since beta. It's just that after Elite Specs, the issues that arouse were more prominent and people seized on a method to convey these earlier feelings.

I just think all this energy is better suited to trying to improve as a player and get the game.

Edit: spot the innuendo.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

It's way more important to win the fight and cap the node in your leisure than suicide onto the node. If your options are A: Give up the node but kill the scourge or B: run onto the node and die to the scourge immediately there's a very clear right answer here.

Like just a hypothetical if a scourge runs onto a point and you have to give it up but kill him after a 20 second fight that's like 5 points he got from holding the node vs. the 5 points you got from killing him plus you're probably going to hold the node much longer than he was able to. > @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

In other words, "get gud" and conform to the "meta", don't even think about changing the game. Put the burden on the players and not on the devs. Gotcha.

See, I've done that....I'm tired of it. I just pvp to farm gold and keep my guild company because there's literally nothing to play for. pvp is an abomination. Is it any wonder why so many pvp players have left? Look at all these broken builds. You call this fun?! pvp is powercreeped and braindead across the board.

I'm sorry, I don't see the point of this thread. I don't see why there should be this focus on the players instead of the devs, although I agree with you.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

During all 7 years of GW1, the mesmer was unholy oppressive only for an outstanding 3 months because of a change to a couple of Hex elites aimed to give the class more firepower in pve, it was an elite with hex/condi dmg on a 5s CD...wastrel's demise if I remember correct...but even during those 3 months the mesmer was not untouchable by any class and could be taken down in a fashionable way.

Another example of oppression was dervish with the avatar forms rework but again it took only 3 months to tone everything down

Comparing the balance of GW2 to anything close to GW1......it's pure heresy, like comparing the light of the sun(GW1) with a light bulb (GW2)

@JTGuevara.9018 said:@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

That wording was a pun. As was everything else in the response. But in all seriousness, players have already complained. The devs have a very obvious burden to address. While they are working on that, players are responsible for salvaging the situation. They can create metas, conform to others, adapt their previous playstyle, etc. Whatever they chose, they should try to play it well.

Further discussion should focus on how players can deal with the brokenness.

Clearly, concisely, and succinctly....what overcomes mesmer and scourge.? Videos of streamers would help. Git Gud, L2P...not answers. I'm here to learn so teach.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Clearly, concisely, and succinctly....what overcomes mesmer and scourge.? Videos of streamers would help. Git Gud, L2P...not answers. I'm here to learn so teach.Chrono bunker examples: condi thief, rifle deadeye (is it still after reworks? idk), Spellbreaker, condi mirage (depends on build), scourge depending on builds (chrono with an advantage here though). First things that come to my mind.

Scourge: Well, a lot of builds. Power mirage, druids (not sure after the nerf), any ranger / soulbeast build with a longbow. If there is no FB to support it, it's still squishy

Just the top of my head

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

This would have been a great post, if it wasn't posted by a Chronomancer main. Your class is broken and it should have been butchered weeks ago, it wasn't. Of course people are upset.

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Clearly, concisely, and succinctly....what overcomes mesmer and scourge.? Videos of streamers would help. Git Gud, L2P...not answers. I'm here to learn so teach.Chrono bunker examples: condi thief, rifle deadeye (is it still after reworks? idk), Spellbreaker, condi mirage (depends on build), scourge depending on builds (chrono with an advantage here though). First things that come to my mind.

We're still coming to the point you need mesmers and scourges to counter mesmer and scourges. Other builds do not counter these, since you can still easily fail against these, or have to fight off point.When one asks " what overcomes mesmer and scourge ", i'm waiting for builds that will easily win 1v1 or will make the scourge/mesmer not engage. That's what i'm calling a counter.

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Clearly, concisely, and succinctly....what overcomes mesmer and scourge.? Videos of streamers would help. Git Gud, L2P...not answers. I'm here to learn so teach.Chrono bunker examples: condi thief, rifle deadeye (is it still after reworks? idk), Spellbreaker, condi mirage (depends on build), scourge depending on builds (chrono with an advantage here though). First things that come to my mind.

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Most meta builds don't have a hard counter you are looking for. And that's why they are meta.

That's happening only since PoF mainly, and this is the reason why the game tend to be failing lately. In any game, meta builds are usually meta because they aren't hard to use and usually very efficient, but you also gotta know your counters. If there is exactly zero counter, there is something wrong.

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:You don't facetank a scourge on point. Same reason you don't facetank a full trap DH. Of course you will kite and fight off point here and there.

And that's the other problem since you could( and can still) actually facetank a full trap DH rather easily. As a warrior, if i ran in with shield block or endure, it'd be fine. If i'm doing this against a scourge, i end up getting 10 conditions.

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:Clearly, concisely, and succinctly....what overcomes mesmer and scourge.? Videos of streamers would help. Git Gud, L2P...not answers. I'm here to learn so teach.Chrono bunker examples: condi thief, rifle deadeye (is it still after reworks? idk), Spellbreaker, condi mirage (depends on build), scourge depending on builds (chrono with an advantage here though). First things that come to my mind.

I play core S/P thief which is perfect counter to both scourge and any mesmer.I bet your class can do the same if specced properly, and if not it seems to be l2p issue.

@JTGuevara.9018 said:@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

Pretty much, yeah... That's EXACTLY how metas evolve.

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Most meta builds don't have a hard counter you are looking for. And that's why they are meta.

It was the same in HoT btw. Scrapper, DH and condi chrono had no hard counters, just a few examples.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

As a melee how do i pressure the Scourge without entering his "sewage" exactly then? It covers the entire point on top of being duplicated on top of himself. I'm open to ideas.

Having to give them up the point almost for free simply because they stand on it and produce cancer passively around themselves is why people think Scourge is a bad design, it has nothing to do with numbers.

Mesmers aren't as bad imho, at least they're cooldown based and their pressure drops once they're out unlike Scourge who can just rotate their stuff endlessly, my main issue with them is that they turn the screen into a clusterfuck.

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:You don't facetank a scourge on point. Same reason you don't facetank a full trap DH. Of course you will kite and fight off point here and there.

Why would he follow you off point exactly? His job isn't to chase kills.

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@JTGuevara.9018 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shutdown it doesn't have to OP to cause lowkey hate. The only change was a shift away from disabling skills to interrupting or evading them. Assassin - > Thief produced similar nonsense with shadow form becoming stealth.

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Most meta builds don't have a hard counter you are looking for. And that's why they are meta.

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:You don't facetank a scourge on point. Same reason you don't facetank a full trap DH. Of course you will kite and fight off point here and there.

Its almost like running in and facetanking attacks is not a good strategy?

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:Most meta builds don't have a hard counter you are looking for. And that's why they are meta.

@rank eleven monk.9502 said:You don't facetank a scourge on point. Same reason you don't facetank a full trap DH. Of course you will kite and fight off point here and there.

Aside from Staff marks what else in the meta scourge build is unblockable?

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• I get that those professions are dominant in the Meta
• I get they are frustrating to play against (though they've been punishing people since Gw1).
• I get that Anet is responsible for balancing the game.

They are legitimate points. But it's turned into a circle jerk that absolves players from having to make proper team comp, strategies, rotations, etc.People should be discussing what they and their profession can do to deal with the current situation and let anet review the mountain of nerf suggestions.

You are too cynical.

I could have just as easily said nothing, and let upset people continue to yell at Anet while treating the situation as hopeless.After all, I am biased against those that lambast an entire class for some of its builds, especially the ones I don't play.

However, my primary frustration is losing unnecessarily in sPvP. I don't have any loyalty to enemy Mesmers when they decimate my trickling team. So what malevolent reason would I have for pointing out that the disappointment was weeks ago?

• Are there more nerf suggestions that Anet hasn't heard already?
• Should people not be trying to beat Mesmer/Scourge/Whatever in between balance patches?
• Should everyone just stop playing sPvP because nothing came be done?

My hope would be people come up with strategies, refine their rotation skills, maybe even create a new Meta.

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Clearly, concisely, and succinctly....what overcomes mesmer and scourge.? Videos of streamers would help. Git Gud, L2P...not answers. I'm here to learn so teach.

Conversion Holosmith is pretty solid against scourge on points. HLA pulses AoE condi conversion (large enough to cover most of a point if heat 50%+) and is a light field; thumper turret pulses AoE conversion and can disrupt him; if you run supply drop you can drop it on his head and have an AoE conversion pulsing on the point before you even step into his mess. Spectrum shield is a 2nd stunbreak (1st being rumble) for his fears and gives -50% incoming damage/condi damage for if your conversion gets overwhelmed (say if you got feared while using a conversion skill). It isn't an auto-win matchup, but it does a good job of countering what really sucks about fighting Scourge.