Please Anet No More Reworks

I know the devs had good intentions with the recent reworks to deadeye and mesmer and it's awesome to see more dev interactions. However these reworks have been a good example of "good on paper, bad in practice".

Mesmer has pretty much ruined pvp with it's clone spam, which also causes more lag. Deadeye is now both useless in pvp and pve, no longer even able to reach 30k with rifle on benchmarks.

Please Anet if it ain't broke....don't try to fix it.

Mesmer rework was pretty damn good for the class, it also made possible things that weren't there before for it IE Power DPS Chrono. It does need some tuning in PvP/WvW so the main thing you should complain about is the slow pace of PvP balance/tweaking. Gotta keep it real, bro.

Deadeye "rework" didn't really work out, I give you that, malice was basically made a non-mechanic and the whole spec is in a worse place overall.

Totally agree. I can't understand their reasons to do so... Because when you look for feedback on the forums, almost every single revenant is screaming for a rework of their profession, but what do they do? They rework something that didn't really need it. The same happens with other weapons in different professions.Honestly I did like more the deadeye elite specialization before the rework, now I don't even consider playing thief as it has just one good elite spec. while the other doesn't even count for me because it now feels so wrong to play it.I don't want to even talk about mesmers... that profession literally makes me want to quit structured PvP, and necromancers are kind of the same, there is just too much cluster in the screen with the scourge animations and the mesmer clones!

Anyways, at least they got better the feel of some renegade skills, but still spirits have kind of the same problem with those animations.

I actually thought a Mesmer elite spec (or even more intriguing, new or tangent core spec unlocks... Imagine if a mastery could be opened to grant you the ability to unlock a 4th line to the dueling spec) where it changed your phantasms to temporary aoe effects (similar to current) and leaving you the option of having your Phantasm build if you prefer it... That would have been ideal. I'm sure the current Mesmer is stronger, but strength isn't everything.

@"Lyger.5429" said:I know the devs had good intentions with the recent reworks to deadeye and mesmer and it's awesome to see more dev interactions. However these reworks have been a good example of "good on paper, bad in practice".

Mesmer has pretty much ruined pvp with it's clone spam, which also causes more lag. Deadeye is now both useless in pvp and pve, no longer even able to reach 30k with rifle on benchmarks.

Please Anet if it ain't broke....don't try to fix it.

Well that's the problem, pre-rework mesmer was broken. It had a self defeating mechanic, and that's reason enough to fix it. And just because its unbalanced does not mean that the rework was bad.

@OriOri.8724 said:

@"Lyger.5429" said:I know the devs had good intentions with the recent reworks to deadeye and mesmer and it's awesome to see more dev interactions. However these reworks have been a good example of "good on paper, bad in practice".

Mesmer has pretty much ruined pvp with it's clone spam, which also causes more lag. Deadeye is now both useless in pvp and pve, no longer even able to reach 30k with rifle on benchmarks.

Please Anet if it ain't broke....don't try to fix it.

Mesmer was not broken for 4+ years. Mirage just introduced a playstyle that was less than ideal.

No water mill has even been moved by still waters.

I say any change is better than none, as long as anything that goes wrong can be fixed later.

Continuous development demands change.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No water mill has even been moved by still waters.

I say any change is better than none, as long as anything that goes wrong can be fixed later.

Continuous development demands change.

There's a reason Coca-Cola doesn't change their formula anymore but rather introduces new flavors...

I think they SHOULD do more reworks, but they should test them far more, maybe invite trusted members of the community [under NDA just in case] to test out the changes and give feedback.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No water mill has even been moved by still waters.

I say any change is better than none, as long as anything that goes wrong can be fixed later.

Continuous development demands change.

I have a bit of a different take on change. First, change is inevitable. It happens. Change itself, change as a thing in itself, is neither good nor bad. However, change produces results that are usually either good or bad. Good change is good. Bad change is bad. Generally, change for the sake of change is bad.

@Ephemiel.5694 said:I think they SHOULD do more reworks, but they should test them far more, maybe invite trusted members of the community [under NDA just in case] to test out the changes and give feedback.

They last time Anet did this on any decent scale the participants (predictably) violated the trust placed in them.Nope.

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:I think they SHOULD do more reworks, but they should test them far more, maybe invite trusted members of the community [under NDA just in case] to test out the changes and give feedback.

Rather than try to keep things under wraps, why not just introduce a Test Server and let players get a feel for possible reworks when they should occur? One might say that would be way too much effort but then reworks should be rare.

@mindcircus.1506 said:

@Ephemiel.5694 said:I think they SHOULD do more reworks, but they should test them far more, maybe invite trusted members of the community [under NDA just in case] to test out the changes and give feedback.

When was that?

@"Lunateric.3708" said:Mesmer rework was pretty kitten good for the class, it also made possible things that weren't there before for it IE Power DPS Chrono. It does need some tuning in PvP/WvW so the main thing you should complain about is the slow pace of PvP balance/tweaking. Gotta keep it real, bro.

Deadeye "rework" didn't really work out, I give you that, malice was basically made a non-mechanic and the whole spec is in a worse place overall.

They didn't have to rework mes (not right away) because it was meta in all game modes. Plus chrono was meant to be a support spec not dps. They could have made another spec for that.

@Lyger.5429 said:I know the devs had good intentions with the recent reworks to deadeye and mesmer and it's awesome to see more dev interactions. However these reworks have been a good example of "good on paper, bad in practice".

Mesmer has pretty much ruined pvp with it's clone spam, which also causes more lag. Deadeye is now both useless in pvp and pve, no longer even able to reach 30k with rifle on benchmarks.

Please Anet if it ain't broke....don't try to fix it.

Anet only fixes things they find broken though ... it's not open to player opinion or interpretation.

@Lyger.5429 said:

@"Lunateric.3708" said:Mesmer rework was pretty kitten good for the class, it also made possible things that weren't there before for it IE Power DPS Chrono. It does need some tuning in PvP/WvW so the main thing you should complain about is the slow pace of PvP balance/tweaking. Gotta keep it real, bro.

Deadeye "rework" didn't really work out, I give you that, malice was basically made a non-mechanic and the whole spec is in a worse place overall.

Hold on here ... being meta in all game modes ... that doesn't indicate balance or 'things are fine' to me. Clearly, mesmer is doing alot better than most classes ... maybe too much so. i'm not surprised they have been getting some unwanted attention ... obviously mesmer players LIKE the current state of their profession, for reasons.

It's not that the reworks are bad, it's more of a case they're not properly tested by good players because of lack of PTR server and once they hit live, trying to balance or alter them beyond number tweaks takes months, if not years.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Lyger.5429 said:I know the devs had good intentions with the recent reworks to deadeye and mesmer and it's awesome to see more dev interactions. However these reworks have been a good example of "good on paper, bad in practice".

Mesmer has pretty much ruined pvp with it's clone spam, which also causes more lag. Deadeye is now both useless in pvp and pve, no longer even able to reach 30k with rifle on benchmarks.

Please Anet if it ain't broke....don't try to fix it.

@Lyger.5429 said:

@"Lunateric.3708" said:Mesmer rework was pretty kitten good for the class, it also made possible things that weren't there before for it IE Power DPS Chrono. It does need some tuning in PvP/WvW so the main thing you should complain about is the slow pace of PvP balance/tweaking. Gotta keep it real, bro.

Deadeye "rework" didn't really work out, I give you that, malice was basically made a non-mechanic and the whole spec is in a worse place overall.

Not opened to opinion? No that is wrong stop trying to censor others please there is no excuse for that behavior period, everyone has a right to express opinions about changes to the game where in the user agreement does it say that? Of course its opened to discussion and opinion, just like everything else.

Revenants more than any other classes NEEDS a significant overhaul, due to being 2-3 years behind in development, and still plagued by questionable design decisions.

But yeah, the top outlier Elementalist needs a significant nerf to be bought in line with other classes.

@Ephemiel.5694 said:

When was that?

Probably during the raid testing pre-HoT that certain high end pve guild were invited to participate in.

I do agree that a PTS is sorely needed in this game and I believe they have the tools to do it as proven by the beta weekends for PoF & HoT.

@Obtena.7952 said:

Hold on here ... being meta in all game modes ... that doesn't indicate balance or 'things are fine' to me. Clearly, mesmer is doing alot better than most classes ... maybe too much so. i'm not surprised they have been getting some unwanted attention ... obviously mesmer players LIKE the current state of their profession, for reasons.

It may not indicated balance but it definitely shows blatant favoritism.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No water mill has even been moved by still waters.

I say any change is better than none, as long as anything that goes wrong can be fixed later.

Continuous development demands change.

Yeah. Because their original formula had cocaine, they can't go back to that. They got a new patent, and they can't change the recipe or they will lose it.

And all those 'new flavors' are still change.

And the actual flavor of Coca-cola also changes from depending on the water used to make it, because different minerals give water a different taste. That's why when I tried US Coke it tasted like what I guess is kitten piss, compared to the delightful Coca-cola that is where I live. The temperature at which you drink it also changes the flavor.

There's nothing that is ever the same. Everything is always in constant change, except what's dead.

The end to change is the end of everything.

@Raine.1394 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No water mill has even been moved by still waters.

I say any change is better than none, as long as anything that goes wrong can be fixed later.

Continuous development demands change.

It is not. Because change is never for the sake of change. Change is either inevitable or intentional. In most cases for a game with many possible skills, classes or characters to use, the main reason to do it is when some of them are used too infrequently, and others too frequently. What some call "the meta". If the "meta" is too narrow, too limited, including too little diversity, change will be needed.

Then you have to identify why people do not use the things less used and used so much the things that are used too much. For example, people used druid for healing so much because they could bring both lots of damage buffing and healing at the same time. Solution? Pretty obvious, split that into two separate traits, just like they did recently.

For mesmer, people would not use illusions the way they were meant to e used, their either spammed them a lot for shatters or tried to keep the phantasms up at all times. Phantasms had to be taken off the illusion cap they shared with clones to let mesmer gameplay be more fluent and not have people stuck in two opposite behaviors.

Now, as I said before, once the changes are done, adjustments have to come after that. In the case of Mesmer illusion spam, phantasms need a cap too like clones. They should not share their cap with clones, but they need a cap of their own, or they'll be spammed way too much all over the place, cluttering the screen and making gameplay less fun and harder to watch.

"Do not do anything" never helps. "Do the right thing" does. The harder part is figuring out what's the right thing to do.

[accidental double post]

Mesmer is the template of what a good rework is, deadeye is not.

Also even pre-rework mesmer shat out clones like candy in WvW.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:There's a reason Coca-Cola doesn't change their formula anymore but rather introduces new flavors...Yeah. Because their original formula had cocaine, they can't go back to that. They got a new patent, and they can't change the recipe or they will lose it.And all those 'new flavors' are still change.

Also, high fructose cane syrup vs cane sugar, which have different flavor profiles (because different types of sugars predominate) is a significant contributor to the flavor profile.

There's nothing that is ever the same. Everything is always in constant change, except what's dead.

I can't source it, but "Biologists have a specialized term for something that never changes: dead" is an old fave. :)

(If it isn't obvious, I agree with the rest of the sentiment entirely.)

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No water mill has even been moved by still waters.

I say any change is better than none, as long as anything that goes wrong can be fixed later.

Continuous development demands change.

Completely beside the point since I said "anymore". Changing the formula because the needed to remove the cocaine in it is what would be considered a "necessary change". Changing malice because it is "bland" is what would be considered an "unnecessary change" or "change for change's sake".

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:And all those 'new flavors' are still change.

People that argue against overhauls like the recent ones don't dislike additions to the game. Removing options is the type of change being argued against.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:And the actual flavor of Coca-cola also changes from depending on the water used to make it, because different minerals give water a different taste. That's why when I tried US Coke it tasted like what I guess is kitten kitten, compared to the delightful Coca-cola that is where I live. The temperature at which you drink it also changes the flavor.

The type of water is inconsequential as the processes the company uses to remove impurities likely removes most artifacts in the water that could drastically change the flavor.

And it's funny you mentioned the regional differences. Frankly, coke flavor was a bad example for me to bring up had you done a simple google search. Coca-cola actually are changing the flavor of their coke in the US, but not for the sake of change. They are lowering the concentration of high fructose corn syrup to that of the levels of those in other countries, consequently reducing the calories. Likely the reason for their choice was decades of pressure linking regular consumption to various health issues. And they've been lowering the sweetness of the drink in increments for at least a year now.

Also, what does temperature at which you choose to drink something have to do with anything?

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:There's nothing that is ever the same. Everything is always in constant change, except what's dead.

The end to change is the end of everything.

Strawman. No one is advocating for static non-change.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:It is not. Because change is never for the sake of change.

Tell that to consumerists who will buy the latest iPhone, not because there is significant change in the phone or because their old phone is busted, but for the sake of change, hype and keeping up with the Jones'.

Your entire argument is from an unrelated tangent that doesn't argue anything against the OP.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:For mesmer, people would not use illusions the way they were meant to e used, their either spammed them a lot for shatters or tried to keep the phantasms up at all times. Phantasms had to be taken off the illusion cap they shared with clones to let mesmer gameplay be more fluent and not have people stuck in two opposite behaviors.

Because players can't be expected to choose what they deemed fitting for their own style of play? Explain in detail, why a trait could not be used to regulate phantasms being persistent or not (either it be a trait that makes phantasms persist or a trait that makes them not).

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Now, as I said before, once the changes are done, adjustments have to come after that. In the case of Mesmer illusion spam, phantasms need a cap too like clones. They should not share their cap with clones, but they need a cap of their own, or they'll be spammed way too much all over the place, cluttering the screen and making gameplay less fun and harder to watch.

So a solution to a problem that was created by a solution for a problem that wasn't actually a problem. This is the definition of whack-a-mole balance. You tell the readers of this thread right now that it isn't. I dare you.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:No water mill has even been moved by still waters.

I say any change is better than none, as long as anything that goes wrong can be fixed later.

Continuous development demands change.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:And all those 'new flavors' are still change.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:And the actual flavor of Coca-cola also changes from depending on the water used to make it, because different minerals give water a different taste. That's why when I tried US Coke it tasted like what I guess is kitten kitten, compared to the delightful Coca-cola that is where I live. The temperature at which you drink it also changes the flavor.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:There's nothing that is ever the same. Everything is always in constant change, except what's dead.

The end to change is the end of everything.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:It is not. Because change is never for the sake of change.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:For mesmer, people would not use illusions the way they were meant to e used, their either spammed them a lot for shatters or tried to keep the phantasms up at all times. Phantasms had to be taken off the illusion cap they shared with clones to let mesmer gameplay be more fluent and not have people stuck in two opposite behaviors.

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:Now, as I said before, once the changes are done, adjustments have to come after that. In the case of Mesmer illusion spam, phantasms need a cap too like clones. They should not share their cap with clones, but they need a cap of their own, or they'll be spammed way too much all over the place, cluttering the screen and making gameplay less fun and harder to watch.

Players can choose to do whatever they want, but if devs see them not doing what they were intended to do, you cannot be surprised when they keep doing changes aimed towards encouraging the intended behavior.

For example, dungeon paths used to be repeatable with the same rewards. What people did? Repeat the fastest one over and over.

That was not the intended way of doing them, so they made the rewards diminish over time. People still repeated the fastest one over and over.That still wasn't the intended way, so they split the rewards between a daily part and a diminishing part. People switched to repeating the 3 fastest ones over and over.Of course that was still bad, so the removed a lot of the daily and diminishing rewards, and put them back in a chest for doing 8 different ones. What people do now? At least 8 different ones, which is closer to the intended way.

A lot of "pointless changes" for many, and there's even people blaming the emptiness of dungeons to these when we know it's just that thre's way more things to do daily to focus on dungeons, after getting its collections.

A particular individual or group of individuals not seeing a problem does not make it less of a problem. If your whole argument is "If ain't broke don't fix it" then it's all pointless, because they weren't fixing something broken, they were changing something that wasn't used the way it was meant to be used.

The changes to mesmers were needed because the way it was being used wasn't the way it was meant to be used. And more changes are needed now because it's impossible to foresse how people will use them after, and now we see people is spamming too many phantasms because they no longer have a cap. But since they can't share the cap with clones, the solution is simple: A cap of their own.That's what needs to be done, not going back to the old version.