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Will anything happen to make Ascalon great again?

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  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Justine.6351 said:
    While the story of the Human Kingdom of Ascalon is a sad one, lets not forget that every human that lived in the Kingdom of Ascalon is dead and gone by multiple generations. Sometimes history is just that, history.

    Well, you're half right.

  • dusanyu.4057dusanyu.4057 Member ✭✭✭

    To be honest the state of Ascalon does not bother mat all and i was a GW1 player. Lets look at this idea that the current State of the charr is a Retcon.
    Back in GW1 we were only exposed to one side of the story, Ascalons. We are told the Charr ate "Beasts" mention of early history is never mentioned because it is simply convenient for the war effort. It would be difficult to win a war if your warriors thing that the enemy might have a shred of "Humanity" or even worse might actually have a rightful claim to the land.

    We see this dehumanization of the enemy in Real life as well in WW2 propaganda which painted Japan as backwards and less than human (it was so bad when japan reliced there advanced for the time Ki-61 Hien fighter the allies thought it was a Italian design and gave it the reporting name "Tony")

    so it is not unbelievable at all that the "beast" char were capable of building great things and we never got a look at iron in GW1 at all although it would have been fun in missions like "The great northern wall" to walk into a row of Iron Legion War machines.

    As far as humanity ever retaking ascalon. it will never happen lore paints humanity as a dieing species pushed to one corner and locked in a battle with centaurs determend on their extermination and barely holding there own. Id they tried to reconquer Ascalon they would be mowed over by the char in a matter of days.

    And before you scream "But Ebonhawk" that was a siege upon a fortification and good fortifications can make all the difference in that kind of fighting (ebonhawk does not as far as a fortress goes it stinks on ice but let us pretend that it is as awesome as the game portrays it as" for example Corfe Castle (a masterpiece of fortification engineering) in 1643 a group of Parliamentarians about two to three hundred men tried to take the castle from Lady Mary Bankes, her daughters and Servants and a force of **Five men ** and they held the castle. Eventually Lady Bankes' ranks swelled to about 80 men ant the parliamentarians to 600. eventually the castle fell only because she was betrayed by someone from the inside.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bankes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfe_Castle

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    And before you scream "But Ebonhawk" that was a siege upon a fortification and good fortifications can make all the difference in that kind of fighting (ebonhawk does not as far as a fortress goes it stinks on ice but let us pretend that it is as awesome as the game portrays it as" for example Corfe Castle (a masterpiece of fortification engineering) in 1643 a group of Parliamentarians about two to three hundred men tried to take the castle from Lady Mary Bankes, her daughters and Servants and a force of **Five men ** and they held the castle. Eventually Lady Bankes' ranks swelled to about 80 men ant the parliamentarians to 600. eventually the castle fell only because she was betrayed by someone from the inside.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bankes
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfe_Castle

    To be fair Ebonhawke in game is a bit simplified in layout and fortification to fit into the fields of ruin map. It's probably more similar to this:

    M%C3%BCnchner_Stadtbefestigung
    Again, who thought that putting images into a forum for illustration purposes is a bad thing?!

    Except the wall part is actually a mountain, or rock formation, that is around 100 metres in height and fortified with arrow carts, ballistas, catapults, trebuchets, and even cannons imported from Kryta. The Hawkgates can actually be closed so that an attacker has to either blast a hole into the massive rock formation, or has to overcome the cities mountainous walls. Even Nox Darkheart didn't manage that. He and the Dark warband driven off by the defenders, before they could open the gates, or allow Iron Legion to occupy the wall. The defenders likely had (or still have) tunnels to quickly deploy troops, when the charr managed to overwhelm a position on the wall.
    And even with that wall, Ebonhawke would have fallen to lack of resources, if not for the Krytans, who kept supplying the City of Ebonhawke at their own cost.

    Lastly, whether or not Ascalon is currently great. The Legions are not really comparable to a military unit in the traditional sense, they are more like nation states in the early modern age. Just the Iron Legion on its own is competitive with Kryta economically and militarily. We couldn't visit the other legion's homelands for comparison, except for Flame Legion, who seem to be much smaller than Iron. The charr have water treatment plants, lots of forges, armories, factories, settlements, ranches, villages/fortresses, mines and other stuff. They do seem to lack the same sense of culture that the humans have, but this is partially rooted in their history, which doesn't compare to the ancient human history. Instead, you could compare the charr to the humans in other fantasy stories. They went from barbaric conquerors to settlers and explorers to successful states. What they lack in a sense of history, they make up for in technology.

  • @Silverkung.9127 said:
    Everything can rise and everything can fall.
    May be ANet will clear Charr story about how to handle ghost of ascalon,Flame legion,Separatist.
    Ascalon will be free or clean from they curse like Orr. . .but how and when.

    Maybe its like in Lotr the true king of Ascalon can set them free use them to his will but im sure none of the royal family survived.

  • @Imba.9451 said:
    Basically the title says it all.
    I find it extremly infuriating, that Ascalon became the mess that it is today. GW1 players started there, we all remember that it wasn't that scorched wasteland before. And now all the characters, most being good people, are bound in an endless cycle of reliving the terrors of war each and every day, while being scoffed at by the charr. I don't think they deserve it.
    (Same thing with the poor sunspears btw. I just started playing after i finished PoF half a year ago, played the new frac, and hated every second of it. It's like Anet hates humans.)

    Willing to make a human guild if your in.
    Ascalon Steel Legion
    Heroes of Ascalon! You have withstood the evil savagery of the Charr, and they have left nothing for you to fear. So raise high the black banners of vengeance—now is our time.
    We do not wither before the flames of war, for our resolve is like steel and only hardens with heat. Do not let these new foes forget who we are. Show them our strength and our unbending fury!

  • Wolfb.7025Wolfb.7025 Member ✭✭✭

    The lore says that Ascalon was inhabited by the Forgotten, but Charr fought and claimed it after the forgotten just retreated mysteriously. So yeah, Charr are the righteous owners since then.
    The humans then came and kicked Charr out of their territory, but Charr didn't gave up and reclaimed the land back after the Foefire, although with an apparently permanent ghostly predicament.

    As a Treaty-sympatizer Charr I got to admit that i'm worried about what comes to the future after we get rid with all the problems we got right now (Ancient dragons, branded, ghosts...) because, you know, Charr are very territorial species, driven to conquest and dominate new lands, the most probable thing that will happen is that we're going to spread out reclaiming new lands, but only Smodur knows what he's planning, and only the potential Khan-Ur will know what will be our next plan-of-action.
    Another thing that would happen is that all races gets to an agreement to live in peace, but a happy ending to GW2 would be lame and boring if you ask me and its more likely that some sort of conflict will continue on gw3 or something, peace never lasts forever.

    Years just pass like trains
    I wave but they don't sloow dooown~ don't slow doown~♪

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    As far as humanity ever retaking ascalon. it will never happen lore paints humanity as a dieing species pushed to one corner and locked in a battle with centaurs determend on their extermination and barely holding there own. Id they tried to reconquer Ascalon they would be mowed over by the char in a matter of days.

    I don't think that this depiction of humanity holds much weight anymore, to be honest, especially when we analyze the lore. Even in the pre-expansion days, this "dying race" idea lost a lot of steam. This idea is less rooted in "lore" and more an initial sales pitch meant to show how dire things have changed for humanity since the previous game, and meant to also build up some excitement for non-human races by taking humanity down a notch. The game depicts, however, humanity firmly holding their ground and fighting back as well. In order for the ball to bounce, the ball must first drop. This was essentially a brief 250-year setback for humanity. The charr were setback by over 1000 years out of Ascalon. Should we have written them off as a dying race too?

    Most of Kryta's struggles, for example, were artificially engineered from within to undermine the crown: e.g., Lord Beetlestone and the White Mantle. We are basically told that if Kryta sorted out its mess that it would be a fearsome kingdom that could easily hold its ground against foes. The tides essentially turn the moment that we put Lord Beetlestone under house arrest. As we uncover these nefarious plots, the Seraph and Shining Blade begin pressing an offensive and counterplot. And in the course of the game, though the maps are frozen in time, humanity soundly defeats the centaurs. The Seraph pushes back the centaurs on all fronts. We kill Ulgoth the Mighty of the Modniir, the leader of the Centaur Alliance. The White Mantle have finally been wiped out after 250 years. We have even killed the last Mursaat. Beetlestone and the nobles loyal to him have been publicly outed and defeated. This is the perfect opportunity that Queen Jenna will use to solidify her reign and authority. "Loyalists" will flock to her side. The commoners will uphold Queen Jennah as the one who succesfully protected them from the White Mantle assault. From a PR perspective, this was a total knockout win for Queen Jennah and the Royalists. Furthermore, Queen Jenna has brokered a peace treaty with the charr that both the Iron and Ash Legions also wanted, which gives Ebonhawke room to breathe.

    What "dying race"? The game gives humanity a springboard upward! Kryta is one of the few playable nations that is actually given a forward trajectory into their future through the course of the game. And consider that much like with the Lake Doric map, we know that there are regions we have not visited yet that Kryta likely still holds dominion over. In contrast, if we regard each charr legion as a "nation," we more or less see the totality of Iron Legion's territory. But it's wedged between the norn and Hoelbrak in the west; the Flame and Blood legions in the north; the Brand, the Blazeridge Steppes, and likely the Ash Legion to the east; and Ebonhawke and the Crystal Desert to the South.

    Ebonhawke held its own for centuries, and it will likely be expanding slowly outwards as part of the peace settlement. If (human) Ascalon is to be "great" again, it will likely need to look forward and not backwards for its greatness. It will likely become more cooperative with the Iron Legion, possibly creating a shared cross-species Ascalonian-identity. It does not even need expand northwards. It may have the territory between the Brand and the Blazeridge Mountains, but it also may consider expanding southwards to solidfy land trading routes between Tyria and Elona.

    Furthermore, Zhaitan raised Orr and the Source of Orr has been cleansed. Though a slow process, it's not hard to imagine a gradual recolonization of Orr by humanity or even other races. Will Orr ever be as grand as it once was? Probably not. But a lot of that magical allure was probably due to Zhaitain slumbering underneath.

    And unless something drastic has happened, we last left Cantha in human control too, with the tengu migrating out of Cantha.

    Meanwhile, humanity has consistently held the region of Elona in relative peace, even if under the reign of Palawa Joko. And with PoF, humanity is told by Kormir that humanity does not need the Gods to succeed as they had in the past. We are left with the impression that humanity will continue to survive and thrive on Tyria well into the future. The comparison often made is that the gods are like parents attempting to teach babies that they too can walk on their own. So if anything, this comparison only spells greater things for humanity in Tyria.

    Let's be honest here. If there was a Guild Wars 3 set another three-hundred-years or six-hundred-years or even nine-hundred-years in the future, which single race do you think ArenaNet would most definitely feature? It may be boring and conventional, but my bet is on humanity.

  • Let's be honest here. If there was a Guild Wars 3 set another three-hundred-years or six-hundred-years or even nine-hundred-years in the future, which single race do you think ArenaNet would most definitely feature?

    Asura - we are already yesterdays future today!!

  • Torzini.1523Torzini.1523 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd be all in favor for making Ascalon 'great' again... a great city of the Iron Legion, that is.

    Sorry, humans, your time there is done. Charr were there first, and charr will be there last.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's already better than it was when humans controlled it, so I don't know about this again business. Sounds like specieism to me.

  • @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Reusterr.6982 said:
    Willing to make a human guild if your in.
    Ascalon Steel Legion
    Heroes of Ascalon! You have withstood the evil savagery of the Charr, and they have left nothing for you to fear. So raise high the black banners of vengeance—now is our time.
    We do not wither before the flames of war, for our resolve is like steel and only hardens with heat. Do not let these new foes forget who we are. Show them our strength and our unbending fury!

    The Iron Legion has much more steel than a human guild could realistically handle. Plus, releasing the Ghosts of Ascalon into the Mists aligns with Iron interests, so you can at least solve that problem before committing suicide by charr. Also, a human faction openly fighting the Charr in Ascalon would nowadays call in Kryta to fight as an ally to the charr. This is a reciprocation of the charr assistance during Caudecus' White Mantle insurrection.
    With Flame Legion likely defeated, Iron allied with Blood and Ash, Ebonhawke in a campaign with the charr against ogres, where would your group get its manpower, funding, supplies, to even begin a campaign to liberate Ascalon?
    What allies would you be able to mobilize? Align with the ogres and Ebonhawke will hate your guts, Kryta's anti charr faction is pretty much dead. The Free City of Lion's Arch has roughly 14% charr population (taken from Playerbase Poll.), the Dredge will no longer trust any non dredge after Scarlet. Grawl make for unreliable allies, following whoever impresses them at the moment. You might be able to get one or two norn, but then their rivals would join the opposing side for an epic duel. The Inquest is just as likely to sell out and betray your human freedom fighters - no wait, that is an inevitability - once they got what they wanted.
    Elona has just experienced two conflicts (Balthazar, Sunspear uprising) and has an ongoing defense against the branded. The last thing they want right now is another conflict. And you still had to negotiate free passage through the Fields of Ruin, unless you like fighting the Ebon Vanguard.
    Most likely, your group is on their own, with little support and little resources, besides what they already have.

    And even if you managed to gather your loyal band of rebels and cuthroats, you'd still have to actually remove the Iron Legion from its own territory. As an early modern state, that's likely in the range of millions of charr (around 10-15). Their technology level is comparable to industrial England, while their actual weapons range from 19th century to pre WWI and they have retained some of their cossack level friendlyness from 250 years ago.

    If you ever wanted to test whether your unbending fury actually bends or breaks of chokes, this is it.
    Not only that, even if your companions started out loyal to your cause, how much slaughter could they handle? Could the group rationalize slaughtering a Fahrar? A Primus and all the Cubs? And if not, how would you deal with defectors?
    Would the group's ethos survive massacring Butcher's Block, Nageling, Smokestead?
    How would the self proclaimed freedom fighters react, if Seraph reinforcements called for them to lay down their arms?
    Or if they heard the news, that the Pact set out to stop a group of terrorists, that so far evaded capture by lawful authorities?

    And lastly, would the Ascalon you produce be greater than the Ascalon that currenty exists? Or would it be overrun by ogres, branded and harpies, turning into a depopulated crystalline wasteland?
    Right now, the former Kingdom of Ascalon houses a successor state, the Duchy of Ebonhawke, which is experiencing peace and has been granted a good amount of surrounding land, which the Iron Legion has ceded to it in the Human-Charr peace treaty. Human settlers are establishing new villages and farms, which will later grow into towns. Ebonhawke has the geography to become the gateway to Elona, allowing the humans to dominate regional trade.

    For now, it is better for everyone involved to stay peaceful and work together to prevent a magic induced cataclysm. Humans can worry about their former possessions much later.

    wow you put more thought into this then i did :P to be honest I'm new to GW and have been following the lore from GW1 and see the char as a evil force but from what you said they seem to be evolving into a good decent society but there not as evil as i thought. did not know the char let the humans come back to build towns.
    what i thought was a good intention could turn ugly fast but they seem to always do.
    i guess to was 250 years ago so no1 alive today was affected anyways.
    one thing i could not find is how kryta survived the attacks.

  • @Torzini.1523 said:
    I'd be all in favor for making Ascalon 'great' again... a great city of the Iron Legion, that is.

    Sorry, humans, your time there is done. Charr were there first, and charr will be there last.

    By the argument of "charr were there first", it should belong to the grawl, since the Forgotten and dwarves who held some sway in the land before charr are extinct (in Tyria, for the Forgotten at least).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    It's already better than it was when humans controlled it, so I don't know about this again business. Sounds like specieism to me.

    Mass amounts of industrial pollution is better than when humans controlled it? When humans controlled it, there was no pollution. It was the charr who caused the Searing, and it is the charr who are creating smelters and forges left and right in the land producing massive amounts of smoke, and their own smelters are suffering from mercury poisoning.

    @Reusterr.6982 said:
    one thing i could not find is how kryta survived the attacks.

    If by "the attacks" you mean the charr invasion, the TL;DR is they were saved by the mursaat, who turned into oppressive tyrants and were subsequently killed.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Lucius.2140Lucius.2140 Member ✭✭✭

    From what remember if the ghosts in Ascalon are gone, the Legion will push the peace with the humans. That could probably trigger an expansion, since the blood legion imperator is not in favor of the peace and leave us to the Charr Homelands, there was alredy some posts in reddit about they been the next expansion maps.

    Im a charr fan, so im hoping for it.

    For the Blood Legion! - 11 charr

  • Lucius.2140Lucius.2140 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lord Trejgon.2809 said:

    @Nicholas S Lin.6187 said:
    I would like human Ascalonian to return from Kryta and rebuild Ascalon City and the other major human cities like Serenity Temple and Fort Ranik. Realistically I would say that only Ascalon City will be multicultural and be like Lion's Arch - but ruled by a human council representing all cities of human-Ascalon: Ascalon City, Ebonhawke, Serenity Temple and Ashford(?). (PS: Note I chose Serenity Temple as a city as well since I believe it holds such an important cultural and religious significance to humans.)

    convincing charr to allow for this would be...... interesting task xD

    If it ends in a ingame event, the numerous humans will die, charrs are more organized an are better playing generally, it will be like a zerg vs a havoc group, lets do it xd.

    For the Blood Legion! - 11 charr

  • Lucius.2140Lucius.2140 Member ✭✭✭

    >

    Asura and charr because they are unique to the game, gw3 will need differentiation.

    For the Blood Legion! - 11 charr

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Torzini.1523 said:
    I'd be all in favor for making Ascalon 'great' again... a great city of the Iron Legion, that is.

    Sorry, humans, your time there is done. Charr were there first, and charr will be there last.

    By the argument of "charr were there first", it should belong to the grawl, since the Forgotten and dwarves who held some sway in the land before charr are extinct (in Tyria, for the Forgotten at least).

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    It's already better than it was when humans controlled it, so I don't know about this again business. Sounds like specieism to me.

    Mass amounts of industrial pollution is better than when humans controlled it? When humans controlled it, there was no pollution. It was the charr who caused the Searing, and it is the charr who are creating smelters and forges left and right in the land producing massive amounts of smoke, and their own smelters are suffering from mercury poisoning.

    @Reusterr.6982 said:
    one thing i could not find is how kryta survived the attacks.

    If by "the attacks" you mean the charr invasion, the TL;DR is they were saved by the mursaat, who turned into oppressive tyrants and were subsequently killed.

    You mean the pollution that they clean up after? Have you actually done the hearts in the area? A good portion are dedicated to cleaning it.

    Where we do see actual substantial pollution is Elona, which is a Human kingdom.

  • phs.6089phs.6089 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Imba.9451 said:
    I really hope so. The current state of Ascalon is just sad.
    I propose, in order to make Ascalon great again, to rebuild the great wall! And then make the charr pay for it! :D

    So you propose another war between humans and charrs? Interesting way to sort things up in Ascalon

    "There is always a lighthouse, there's always a man, there's always a city."

  • @Castigator.3470 said:

    @Reusterr.6982 said:
    Willing to make a human guild if your in.
    Ascalon Steel Legion
    Heroes of Ascalon! You have withstood the evil savagery of the Charr, and they have left nothing for you to fear. So raise high the black banners of vengeance—now is our time.
    We do not wither before the flames of war, for our resolve is like steel and only hardens with heat. Do not let these new foes forget who we are. Show them our strength and our unbending fury!

    The Iron Legion has much more steel than a human guild could realistically handle. Plus, releasing the Ghosts of Ascalon into the Mists aligns with Iron interests, so you can at least solve that problem before committing suicide by charr. Also, a human faction openly fighting the Charr in Ascalon would nowadays call in Kryta to fight as an ally to the charr. This is a reciprocation of the charr assistance during Caudecus' White Mantle insurrection.
    With Flame Legion likely defeated, Iron allied with Blood and Ash, Ebonhawke in a campaign with the charr against ogres, where would your group get its manpower, funding, supplies, to even begin a campaign to liberate Ascalon?
    What allies would you be able to mobilize? Align with the ogres and Ebonhawke will hate your guts, Kryta's anti charr faction is pretty much dead. The Free City of Lion's Arch has roughly 14% charr population (taken from Playerbase Poll.), the Dredge will no longer trust any non dredge after Scarlet. Grawl make for unreliable allies, following whoever impresses them at the moment. You might be able to get one or two norn, but then their rivals would join the opposing side for an epic duel. The Inquest is just as likely to sell out and betray your human freedom fighters - no wait, that is an inevitability - once they got what they wanted.
    Elona has just experienced two conflicts (Balthazar, Sunspear uprising) and has an ongoing defense against the branded. The last thing they want right now is another conflict. And you still had to negotiate free passage through the Fields of Ruin, unless you like fighting the Ebon Vanguard.
    Most likely, your group is on their own, with little support and little resources, besides what they already have.

    And even if you managed to gather your loyal band of rebels and cuthroats, you'd still have to actually remove the Iron Legion from its own territory. As an early modern state, that's likely in the range of millions of charr (around 10-15). Their technology level is comparable to industrial England, while their actual weapons range from 19th century to pre WWI and they have retained some of their cossack level friendlyness from 250 years ago.

    If you ever wanted to test whether your unbending fury actually bends or breaks of chokes, this is it.
    Not only that, even if your companions started out loyal to your cause, how much slaughter could they handle? Could the group rationalize slaughtering a Fahrar? A Primus and all the Cubs? And if not, how would you deal with defectors?
    Would the group's ethos survive massacring Butcher's Block, Nageling, Smokestead?
    How would the self proclaimed freedom fighters react, if Seraph reinforcements called for them to lay down their arms?
    Or if they heard the news, that the Pact set out to stop a group of terrorists, that so far evaded capture by lawful authorities?

    And lastly, would the Ascalon you produce be greater than the Ascalon that currenty exists? Or would it be overrun by ogres, branded and harpies, turning into a depopulated crystalline wasteland?
    Right now, the former Kingdom of Ascalon houses a successor state, the Duchy of Ebonhawke, which is experiencing peace and has been granted a good amount of surrounding land, which the Iron Legion has ceded to it in the Human-Charr peace treaty. Human settlers are establishing new villages and farms, which will later grow into towns. Ebonhawke has the geography to become the gateway to Elona, allowing the humans to dominate regional trade.

    For now, it is better for everyone involved to stay peaceful and work together to prevent a magic induced cataclysm. Humans can worry about their former possessions much later.

    if looking for allies i would ask the Norn and let them keep the land they capture around the north of Shiverpeak Mountains.

  • Genesis.8572Genesis.8572 Member ✭✭✭

    @Lucius.2140 said:
    Asura and charr because they are unique to the game, gw3 will need differentiation.

    You know it would be humans. Anything else is intellectually dishonest.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    You mean the pollution that they clean up after? Have you actually done the hearts in the area? A good portion are dedicated to cleaning it.

    Nah. In many cases, it's also the pollution that they also start.

    Where we do see actual substantial pollution is Elona, which is a Human kingdom.

    Not really.

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Mass amounts of industrial pollution is better than when humans controlled it? When humans controlled it, there was no pollution. It was the charr who caused the Searing, and it is the charr who are creating smelters and forges left and right in the land producing massive amounts of smoke, and their own smelters are suffering from mercury poisoning.

    And who is to say that human industry is better for the environment? If your argument is magic, let me remind you of the ecological damage Magic has done to Tyria, which includes Brand and Foefire, the Sinking and Rising of Orr, the Dragonbrand, the magical anomalies, the Crystal Desert, which was known as Crystal Sea, and that are only the events we know of. The Asura magitech is not exactly clean either, see Whitland Flats.

    As for mercury, the real world has an interesting precedent: In the earth near Belgrade lie major deposits of cinnabar. In medieval time, some of the outlying villages were known for their crazyness and the older locals say, that on especially hot summers, they observed a silvery rain. The last part may be due to old mines near Šuplja Stena, which existed since ancient times. Horgan will discover soon enough, that mercury is not good for his daggers, as the liquid metal builds amalgames, which tend to be soft, but at least they bind the quick silver, so it's safe to transport.
    In fact, Vermilion cinnabar pigment will likely be an export good by Iron Legion along with Arsenic Green, Cadmium Yellow, Lead White, Cobalt Blue and Purple. On the other hand, artists in Kryta and Lion's arch will like the pigments for their rich colour and fastness against sunlight.

    @Genesis.8572 said:
    Nah. In many cases, it's also the pollution that they also start.

    Where we do see actual substantial pollution is Elona, which is a Human kingdom.

    Not really.

    Hey, at least they clean up after themselves. Compare to the Inquest, who just leave their waste to contaminate Mt. Maelstrom, or the Flame Legion, who take Scorched Earth to its logical conclusion.
    Imagine Elona actually kickstarts a refinery to gain different chemicals from all the naphtha and the tar. This may fuel a charr automobile industry. Calling it now: Guild wars three will play in a modern age scenario! =)
    As for the dominant races in Tyria: Humans (Cultural) Charr(Military) Asura (Technology). The Norn will build a libertarian utopia in the mountains, while Sylvari are a wildcard.

  • Torzini.1523Torzini.1523 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    Too lazy to quote, so:

    As people have mentioned, cleaning up pollution is the subject of quite a few heart quests in the charr lands. Compare this to a group like the Inquest, whose experimental waste is literally destroying entire ecosystems. Big difference there.

    Also, the charr who caused the Searing are the Flame Legion... who present-day charr are fighting AGAINST. I feel like people forget that. Most charr hate the guts of the Flame Legion, who are the ones who actually destroyed Ascalon, just as much as humans do-- if not even moreso because they misled and enslaved half the race (the females) for decades, if not centuries. Non-Flame charr hate Flame and Searing-type magic with a passion.

    Charr today are not the same as the charr that GW1 fans love to hate. The modern-day charr nation has shaken off the shackles of the Flame Legion and continues to march forward technologically, militarily, ideologically, and culturally. They are now a stoically secular race who are seeking peace with their former enemies.They have developed miles in the lore of GW2, and I love them for it. I hope Anet will continue to show them love in the future.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @Lucius.2140 said:
    Asura and charr because they are unique to the game, gw3 will need differentiation.

    You know it would be humans. Anything else is intellectually dishonest.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    You mean the pollution that they clean up after? Have you actually done the hearts in the area? A good portion are dedicated to cleaning it.

    Nah. In many cases, it's also the pollution that they also start.

    Where we do see actual substantial pollution is Elona, which is a Human kingdom.

    Not really.

    Yes really, have you seen Elona? You've provided no actual evidence to counter what I said.

  • Rognik.2579Rognik.2579 Member ✭✭✭

    Eekasqueak, are you talking about the huge tar deposits everywhere? If so, that's more Joko's fault and his many Awakened soldiers everywhere. That doesn't make it better, but it does come back to a singular source.

  • Imba.9451Imba.9451 Member ✭✭✭

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    I don't think that this depiction of humanity holds much weight anymore, to be honest, especially when we analyze the lore. Even in the pre-expansion days, this "dying race" idea lost a lot of steam. This idea is less rooted in "lore" and more an initial sales pitch meant to show how dire things have changed for humanity since the previous game, and meant to also build up some excitement for non-human races by taking humanity down a notch. The game depicts, however, humanity firmly holding their ground and fighting back as well. In order for the ball to bounce, the ball must first drop. This was essentially a brief 250-year setback for humanity. The charr were setback by over 1000 years out of Ascalon. Should we have written them off as a dying race too?

    Most of Kryta's struggles, for example, were artificially engineered from within to undermine the crown: e.g., Lord Beetlestone and the White Mantle. We are basically told that if Kryta sorted out its mess that it would be a fearsome kingdom that could easily hold its ground against foes. The tides essentially turn the moment that we put Lord Beetlestone under house arrest. As we uncover these nefarious plots, the Seraph and Shining Blade begin pressing an offensive and counterplot. And in the course of the game, though the maps are frozen in time, humanity soundly defeats the centaurs. The Seraph pushes back the centaurs on all fronts. We kill Ulgoth the Mighty of the Modniir, the leader of the Centaur Alliance. The White Mantle have finally been wiped out after 250 years. We have even killed the last Mursaat. Beetlestone and the nobles loyal to him have been publicly outed and defeated. This is the perfect opportunity that Queen Jenna will use to solidify her reign and authority. "Loyalists" will flock to her side. The commoners will uphold Queen Jennah as the one who succesfully protected them from the White Mantle assault. From a PR perspective, this was a total knockout win for Queen Jennah and the Royalists. Furthermore, Queen Jenna has brokered a peace treaty with the charr that both the Iron and Ash Legions also wanted, which gives Ebonhawke room to breathe.

    What "dying race"? The game gives humanity a springboard upward! Kryta is one of the few playable nations that is actually given a forward trajectory into their future through the course of the game. And consider that much like with the Lake Doric map, we know that there are regions we have not visited yet that Kryta likely still holds dominion over. In contrast, if we regard each charr legion as a "nation," we more or less see the totality of Iron Legion's territory. But it's wedged between the norn and Hoelbrak in the west; the Flame and Blood legions in the north; the Brand, the Blazeridge Steppes, and likely the Ash Legion to the east; and Ebonhawke and the Crystal Desert to the South.

    Ebonhawke held its own for centuries, and it will likely be expanding slowly outwards as part of the peace settlement. If (human) Ascalon is to be "great" again, it will likely need to look forward and not backwards for its greatness. It will likely become more cooperative with the Iron Legion, possibly creating a shared cross-species Ascalonian-identity. It does not even need expand northwards. It may have the territory between the Brand and the Blazeridge Mountains, but it also may consider expanding southwards to solidfy land trading routes between Tyria and Elona.

    Furthermore, Zhaitan raised Orr and the Source of Orr has been cleansed. Though a slow process, it's not hard to imagine a gradual recolonization of Orr by humanity or even other races. Will Orr ever be as grand as it once was? Probably not. But a lot of that magical allure was probably due to Zhaitain slumbering underneath.

    And unless something drastic has happened, we last left Cantha in human control too, with the tengu migrating out of Cantha.

    Meanwhile, humanity has consistently held the region of Elona in relative peace, even if under the reign of Palawa Joko. And with PoF, humanity is told by Kormir that humanity does not need the Gods to succeed as they had in the past. We are left with the impression that humanity will continue to survive and thrive on Tyria well into the future. The comparison often made is that the gods are like parents attempting to teach babies that they too can walk on their own. So if anything, this comparison only spells greater things for humanity in Tyria.

    Let's be honest here. If there was a Guild Wars 3 set another three-hundred-years or six-hundred-years or even nine-hundred-years in the future, which single race do you think ArenaNet would most definitely feature? It may be boring and conventional, but my bet is on humanity.

    This WoT makes my inner humanity-fanboy having a nerdgasm. Thank you.

    I guess we can all agree that the current situation in Ascalon at least has potential for future events.

    Oh, and just to put fuel to the fire: Let's not foret that it was a Charr who, in order to get back the sword stolen from Ascalonians, freed the god of war and started the events in PoF. (Sorry, for stirring this up, but some people just like to see the world burn.)

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    Eekasqueak, are you talking about the huge tar deposits everywhere? If so, that's more Joko's fault and his many Awakened soldiers everywhere. That doesn't make it better, but it does come back to a singular source.

    Yeah I'm talking about the tar, Joko is technically human, or at least originally was though. Which is the point I'm making. It's far far more pollution than in Ascalon, a lot of which only comes from flame legion sabotage. Tar elementals etc, we see the charr set up water treatment machines to clean up pollution, which is better than we did post industrial revolution. The charr already working on cleaner industry shows that their progress will be much smoother environmentally. There is plenty if magical pollution from Asura and white mantle though... which is seen to be worse than industrial. Akin to radiation with more unpredictable effects. Look at the Thaumanova reactor or bloodstone fen or even Lake Doric.

  • Imba.9451Imba.9451 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    Eekasqueak, are you talking about the huge tar deposits everywhere? If so, that's more Joko's fault and his many Awakened soldiers everywhere. That doesn't make it better, but it does come back to a singular source.

    Yeah I'm talking about the tar, Joko is technically human, or at least originally was though. Which is the point I'm making. It's far far more pollution than in Ascalon, a lot of which only comes from flame legion sabotage. Tar elementals etc, we see the charr set up water treatment machines to clean up pollution, which is better than we did post industrial revolution. The charr already working on cleaner industry shows that their progress will be much smoother environmentally. There is plenty if magical pollution from Asura and white mantle though... which is seen to be worse than industrial. Akin to radiation with more unpredictable effects. Look at the Thaumanova reactor or bloodstone fen or even Lake Doric.

    So, you hold humans and Asura accountable on doings of the White mantle, Joko and the Inquest, while apologizing char pollution by accusing flame legion only? Sounds like specieism to me.

    Also, Joko can hardly be argued to be human anymore. He is an undead, with undead soldiers in an undead kingdom doing undead stuff to make to make the world undeadier. And noone actually stands in for that.

    There is no way around it, charr are the equivalent of human industrialization. They are closer to real-life humans than the humans in GW2 in many aspects. Charr are a juvenile race when it comes to discovering culture and conscience, overcompensating basically everything with "We are proud!" while we se how actually proud warriors can make a living in the norn.
    Actually, there are quite a few similarities between Norn and Charr, albeit with strong differences.
    1: Norn usually don't come together i unison, unless for a greater cause and to party hard. Charr are constantly bickering between their legions and don't really know how to chill.
    2: Norn value a strong body and spirit. They love to fight and compete. It's part of their culture. But when it's all said and done, they get down to earth, open a few kegs of beer and have fun. That last part is not nearly as strong in the charr, who seem constantly up for a fight.
    3: Norn hate false gods (Jormag), but they appreciate the superior forces that are part of GW2's nature (wich, in return, also makes them stronger), while Charr remind me of an angsty teen who just discovered atheism and needs everyone to know about it. They overcompensate for this by building MOAR GUNS. Wich causes pollution. And right now, more pollution than they can handle.
    As a race, Charr culture is in it's infancy. And it shows.
    And thats completely ignoring that they scorched whole ascalon in the first place.

  • Torzini.1523Torzini.1523 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Imba.9451 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Rognik.2579 said:
    Eekasqueak, are you talking about the huge tar deposits everywhere? If so, that's more Joko's fault and his many Awakened soldiers everywhere. That doesn't make it better, but it does come back to a singular source.

    Yeah I'm talking about the tar, Joko is technically human, or at least originally was though. Which is the point I'm making. It's far far more pollution than in Ascalon, a lot of which only comes from flame legion sabotage. Tar elementals etc, we see the charr set up water treatment machines to clean up pollution, which is better than we did post industrial revolution. The charr already working on cleaner industry shows that their progress will be much smoother environmentally. There is plenty if magical pollution from Asura and white mantle though... which is seen to be worse than industrial. Akin to radiation with more unpredictable effects. Look at the Thaumanova reactor or bloodstone fen or even Lake Doric.

    So, you hold humans and Asura accountable on doings of the White mantle, Joko and the Inquest, while apologizing char pollution by accusing flame legion only? Sounds like specieism to me.

    Also, Joko can hardly be argued to be human anymore. He is an undead, with undead soldiers in an undead kingdom doing undead stuff to make to make the world undeadier. And noone actually stands in for that.

    There is no way around it, charr are the equivalent of human industrialization. They are closer to real-life humans than the humans in GW2 in many aspects. Charr are a juvenile race when it comes to discovering culture and conscience, overcompensating basically everything with "We are proud!" while we se how actually proud warriors can make a living in the norn.
    Actually, there are quite a few similarities between Norn and Charr, albeit with strong differences.
    1: Norn usually don't come together i unison, unless for a greater cause and to party hard. Charr are constantly bickering between their legions and don't really know how to chill.
    2: Norn value a strong body and spirit. They love to fight and compete. It's part of their culture. But when it's all said and done, they get down to earth, open a few kegs of beer and have fun. That last part is not nearly as strong in the charr, who seem constantly up for a fight.
    3: Norn hate false gods (Jormag), but they appreciate the superior forces that are part of GW2's nature (wich, in return, also makes them stronger), while Charr remind me of an angsty teen who just discovered atheism and needs everyone to know about it. They overcompensate for this by building MOAR GUNS. Wich causes pollution. And right now, more pollution than they can handle.
    As a race, Charr culture is in it's infancy. And it shows.
    And thats completely ignoring that they scorched whole ascalon in the first place.

    Well, I for one would say the charr have a very good reason for hating gods, considering the Flame Legion once duped the entire race into following false and evil ones. I personally think their commitment to making something of themselves without being someone else's lapdog is something to admire.

    I also think they have a decent reason to be proud, considering their technological accomplishments, for one. ;)

    "They" didn't scorch Ascalon. The Flame Legion did. Centuries ago, I might add, so none of those charr are around anymore. When will you people figure that out lol.

    (Psssst. Modern-day charr hate the Flame Legion too.)

    And as has been mentioned repeatedly, we can see the charr cleaning up after their own pollution, or at least they make a good point of trying to. That's more than I can say of real-life human industrialisation, generally.

  • @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    You mean the pollution that they clean up after? Have you actually done the hearts in the area? A good portion are dedicated to cleaning it.

    Where we do see actual substantial pollution is Elona, which is a Human kingdom.

    There aren't that many hearts dealing with pollution, and most that do, it's picking up scraps to so they can be melted down, and gathering dud ammunition. In both cases, this isn't actually cleaning pollution, especially all the carbon monoxide they're spewing into the air. Beyond that, it's just trying to reverse Flame Legion pollution, not their own - in the charr's typical "I can kitten this land over, but you can't" mentality.

    And the massive amounts of tar in Elona isn't really humanity's fault so much as Joko's, who I may remind you, has still unknown origins. Though he's most likely human, he's kind of lived to the point of no longer being of common human mentality and the same goes for his Awakened. Elona isn't really a human kingdom during GW2's time, but an undead one. And undead care less about pollution than the living, regardless of race.

    The amounts of tar pollution in Elona will no doubt decrease dramatically now that Joko is dead, though over a period of time and not immediately. Though I won't be surprised if they forget to add in tar to new Elonian maps, like they forgot to leave Amnoon crystallized in Episode 3...

    @Castigator.3470 said:
    And who is to say that human industry is better for the environment? If your argument is magic, let me remind you of the ecological damage Magic has done to Tyria, which includes Brand and Foefire, the Sinking and Rising of Orr, the Dragonbrand, the magical anomalies, the Crystal Desert, which was known as Crystal Sea, and that are only the events we know of. The Asura magitech is not exactly clean either, see Whitland Flats.

    Human industry is a lot less industrial and just a bit more magical, and has shown no signs of strong pollution. Both the asura and the charr create massive amounts of pollution compared to their developments (I never did say asura magitech is clean, btw), and dredge aren't much better; humans, norn, kodan, and sylvari produce a lot less to minimal pollution.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    There is plenty if magical pollution from Asura and white mantle though... which is seen to be worse than industrial. Akin to radiation with more unpredictable effects. Look at the Thaumanova reactor or bloodstone fen or even Lake Doric.

    I wouldn't put the blame of the White Mantle fanatics who were dealing with forces beyond their knowledge on all of humanity. One example doesn't make humanity a highly pollutive race.

    This is especially so when you blame all charr pollution on Flame Legion alone. As @Imba.9451 said, your comment is rather speciesist.

    If you look at the non-evil factions, pollution levels among the player races can easily be ordered as (from most pollutive to least): charr, asura, human, norn, sylvari

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • @Imba.9451 said:
    3: Norn hate false gods (Jormag), but they appreciate the superior forces that are part of GW2's nature (wich, in return, also makes them stronger), while Charr remind me of an angsty teen who just discovered atheism and needs everyone to know about it. They overcompensate for this by building MOAR GUNS. Wich causes pollution. And right now, more pollution than they can handle.

    This isn't really accurate, tbh. Norn don't hate false gods, so much as hate Jormag specifically because of what Jormag, specifically, has done to nornanity. They don't have any issues with the grawl idols or the like (though some do consider them good hunts) so long as those false gods and their followers do not bother them.

    Charr, similarly, do not hate gods "just because", but the first real non-charr threat they faced were servants of the Six (Forgotten), and the first group of individuals who managed to push them back did so with the Six's backing (humanity). There's even legends about how the Khan-Ur was assassinated by the gods (other stories claim by humans; the truth remains unclear). Later on, the Flame Legion enslaved the other charr under the pretense of gods. So the charr basically relate everything bad that's happened to them as "because of gods", and they're not entirely wrong. But on top of that, as icing for the cake, the charr also have this age-old bestial view of "everything stronger than us is an enemy" and the first strongest beings they encountered were the Six Gods.

    The charr are not atheists, btw, but antitheist. The difference being that atheists believe "there is/are no god(s)" while antitheist believe "god(s) is/are the enemy". While the charr chant of Eye of the North is an atheist statement, their views and meanings outside the Flame Legion (in general) are antitheist.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Imba.9451Imba.9451 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Imba.9451 said:
    3: Norn hate false gods (Jormag), but they appreciate the superior forces that are part of GW2's nature (wich, in return, also makes them stronger), while Charr remind me of an angsty teen who just discovered atheism and needs everyone to know about it. They overcompensate for this by building MOAR GUNS. Wich causes pollution. And right now, more pollution than they can handle.

    This isn't really accurate, tbh. Norn don't hate false gods, so much as hate Jormag specifically because of what Jormag, specifically, has done to nornanity. They don't have any issues with the grawl idols or the like (though some do consider them good hunts) so long as those false gods and their followers do not bother them.

    Charr, similarly, do not hate gods "just because", but the first real non-charr threat they faced were servants of the Six (Forgotten), and the first group of individuals who managed to push them back did so with the Six's backing (humanity). There's even legends about how the Khan-Ur was assassinated by the gods (other stories claim by humans; the truth remains unclear). Later on, the Flame Legion enslaved the other charr under the pretense of gods. So the charr basically relate everything bad that's happened to them as "because of gods", and they're not entirely wrong. But on top of that, as icing for the cake, the charr also have this age-old bestial view of "everything stronger than us is an enemy" and the first strongest beings they encountered were the Six Gods.

    The charr are not atheists, btw, but antitheist. The difference being that atheists believe "there is/are no god(s)" while antitheist believe "god(s) is/are the enemy". While the charr chant of Eye of the North is an atheist statement, their views and meanings outside the Flame Legion (in general) are antitheist.

    True that, my wording was bad.

    What I basically wanted to say: Norn are generally more accepting than charr. Live and let live. And they don't have this "We don't need supernatural deities!"-atitude. They brawl, but they also live in harmony with the spirits of the wild.

    The way you described it actually makes the charr seem like an abused child. Dunno if thats better than what I wrote though.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    You mean the pollution that they clean up after? Have you actually done the hearts in the area? A good portion are dedicated to cleaning it.

    Where we do see actual substantial pollution is Elona, which is a Human kingdom.

    There aren't that many hearts dealing with pollution, and most that do, it's picking up scraps to so they can be melted down, and gathering dud ammunition. In both cases, this isn't actually cleaning pollution, especially all the carbon monoxide they're spewing into the air. Beyond that, it's just trying to reverse Flame Legion pollution, not their own - in the charr's typical "I can kitten this land over, but you can't" mentality.

    And the massive amounts of tar in Elona isn't really humanity's fault so much as Joko's, who I may remind you, has still unknown origins. Though he's most likely human, he's kind of lived to the point of no longer being of common human mentality and the same goes for his Awakened. Elona isn't really a human kingdom during GW2's time, but an undead one. And undead care less about pollution than the living, regardless of race.

    The amounts of tar pollution in Elona will no doubt decrease dramatically now that Joko is dead, though over a period of time and not immediately. Though I won't be surprised if they forget to add in tar to new Elonian maps, like they forgot to leave Amnoon crystallized in Episode 3...

    @Castigator.3470 said:
    And who is to say that human industry is better for the environment? If your argument is magic, let me remind you of the ecological damage Magic has done to Tyria, which includes Brand and Foefire, the Sinking and Rising of Orr, the Dragonbrand, the magical anomalies, the Crystal Desert, which was known as Crystal Sea, and that are only the events we know of. The Asura magitech is not exactly clean either, see Whitland Flats.

    Human industry is a lot less industrial and just a bit more magical, and has shown no signs of strong pollution. Both the asura and the charr create massive amounts of pollution compared to their developments (I never did say asura magitech is clean, btw), and dredge aren't much better; humans, norn, kodan, and sylvari produce a lot less to minimal pollution.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    There is plenty if magical pollution from Asura and white mantle though... which is seen to be worse than industrial. Akin to radiation with more unpredictable effects. Look at the Thaumanova reactor or bloodstone fen or even Lake Doric.

    I wouldn't put the blame of the White Mantle fanatics who were dealing with forces beyond their knowledge on all of humanity. One example doesn't make humanity a highly pollutive race.

    This is especially so when you blame all charr pollution on Flame Legion alone. As @Imba.9451 said, your comment is rather speciesist.

    If you look at the non-evil factions, pollution levels among the player races can easily be ordered as (from most pollutive to least): charr, asura, human, norn, sylvari

    There's 1 or 2 cleaning up after Flame Legion pollution, far more of the chart cleaning up their own. All this tells me is you haven't actually done all the hearts or don't remember. I've done all the ascalon maps to completion quite a few times and without even looking it up I can think of at least 3 that deal with directly cleaning it. I used flame legion as an example of Charr who don't clean up after themselves. Just like Inquest, or White Mantle or Joko. Like it or not Joko does count as human, you're severely overexaggerating charr pollution because like Imba you're still caught up in the mindset that Humans r best from GW1 and seem bitter about the second game.

    Comparing a race's evil faction to another's evil faction is perfectly fair, even nightmare court pollutes in the form of brambles and such. Svanir it's just an extension of dragon corruption. White Mantle and Inquest show the two biggest examples of pollution /among race's antagonist factions/. You and Imba are taking it and running with it to affirm your biases.

    Also here's three direct examples, water treatment in Diessa plateau, cleaning up tar to help fishermen in Plains of Ashford, cleaning the lake of tar in fire heart rise, including an event to repair water filtration devices. Those are direct examples of Charr cleaning up after themselves that have nothing to do with picking up scraps or ammo.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Imba.9451 said:
    The way you described it actually makes the charr seem like an abused child. Dunno if thats better than what I wrote though.

    Well, the "abuse" came after they tried to take every other kid's toys using that analogy.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    There's 1 or 2 cleaning up after Flame Legion pollution, far more of the chart cleaning up their own. All this tells me is you haven't actually done all the hearts or don't remember. I've done all the ascalon maps to completion quite a few times and without even looking it up I can think of at least 3 that deal with directly cleaning it.

    Please, do cite them, because every "lake cleaning" operation I can think of (and the three you cited are the three I've had on my mind the entire discussion) is cleaning up after Flame Legion. The only other "clean up heart/event" is picking up scrap metal to melt down, or picking up dud bombs from target practice, all for the use of smelting down (aka making more carbon monoxide). There are no air filtering attempts of cleaning up all the smog they're producing, which has been my primary focus in argument that you continue to ignore.

    And I'm saying the Iron Legion don't completely clean up after themselves either. See, once again, the situation of all the smoke they produce. Yes, they pick up scraps and they clean the water, to a degree, but they're still polluting.

    Hell, they have a dump of rusting giant metal cogs right outside their largest city, with absolutely no effort to clean that up. And when they abandoned Sapper's Delve, they didn't even bother to take loose scrap and weapons with them, they just left it as it was, allowing the ogres to take it to make weapons and making humans clean up after them.

    Like it or not Joko does count as human,

    Ignoring the fact that we don't even know if Joko was originally human, when one's mentality has changed so drastically from the norm of society as Joko's had, the norm of society cannot be blamed for that one's actions.

    you're severely overexaggerating charr pollution because like Imba you're still caught up in the mindset that Humans r best from GW1 and seem bitter about the second game.

    Charr are my favorite playable race. My main is a charr. This is so incorrect and biased that it's actually funny in the saddest of ways.

    Comparing a race's evil faction to another's evil faction is perfectly fair, even nightmare court pollutes in the form of brambles and such. Svanir it's just an extension of dragon corruption. White Mantle and Inquest show the two biggest examples of pollution /among race's antagonist factions/.

    Yes, that is correct. It is indeed fair to compare a race's evil faction to another race's evil faction. However, you are comparing the charr's evil faction to the other races' entirety. You blame all of humanity as polluters, yet the ones who pollute are the evil factions. Yet at the same time, you don't blame charr as polluters, despite pointing out that their evil faction are.

    In other words: you're comparing a race's evil faction (Flame Legion) to a race as a whole (humans).

    Also here's three direct examples, water treatment in Diessa plateau, cleaning up tar to help fishermen in Plains of Ashford, cleaning the lake of tar in fire heart rise, including an event to repair water filtration devices. Those are direct examples of Charr cleaning up after themselves that have nothing to do with picking up scraps or ammo.

    All three of those are cleaning up after the Flame Legion, not after themselves.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • By the races combined... I AM CAPTAIN TYRIA!

    Sorry, I couldn't help myself.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Imba.9451 said:
    The way you described it actually makes the charr seem like an abused child. Dunno if thats better than what I wrote though.

    Well, the "abuse" came after they tried to take every other kid's toys using that analogy.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    There's 1 or 2 cleaning up after Flame Legion pollution, far more of the chart cleaning up their own. All this tells me is you haven't actually done all the hearts or don't remember. I've done all the ascalon maps to completion quite a few times and without even looking it up I can think of at least 3 that deal with directly cleaning it.

    Please, do cite them, because every "lake cleaning" operation I can think of (and the three you cited are the three I've had on my mind the entire discussion) is cleaning up after Flame Legion. The only other "clean up heart/event" is picking up scrap metal to melt down, or picking up dud bombs from target practice, all for the use of smelting down (aka making more carbon monoxide). There are no air filtering attempts of cleaning up all the smog they're producing, which has been my primary focus in argument that you continue to ignore.

    And I'm saying the Iron Legion don't completely clean up after themselves either. See, once again, the situation of all the smoke they produce. Yes, they pick up scraps and they clean the water, to a degree, but they're still polluting.

    Hell, they have a dump of rusting giant metal cogs right outside their largest city, with absolutely no effort to clean that up. And when they abandoned Sapper's Delve, they didn't even bother to take loose scrap and weapons with them, they just left it as it was, allowing the ogres to take it to make weapons and making humans clean up after them.

    Like it or not Joko does count as human,

    Ignoring the fact that we don't even know if Joko was originally human, when one's mentality has changed so drastically from the norm of society as Joko's had, the norm of society cannot be blamed for that one's actions.

    you're severely overexaggerating charr pollution because like Imba you're still caught up in the mindset that Humans r best from GW1 and seem bitter about the second game.

    Charr are my favorite playable race. My main is a charr. This is so incorrect and biased that it's actually funny in the saddest of ways.

    Comparing a race's evil faction to another's evil faction is perfectly fair, even nightmare court pollutes in the form of brambles and such. Svanir it's just an extension of dragon corruption. White Mantle and Inquest show the two biggest examples of pollution /among race's antagonist factions/.

    Yes, that is correct. It is indeed fair to compare a race's evil faction to another race's evil faction. However, you are comparing the charr's evil faction to the other races' entirety. You blame all of humanity as polluters, yet the ones who pollute are the evil factions. Yet at the same time, you don't blame charr as polluters, despite pointing out that their evil faction are.

    In other words: you're comparing a race's evil faction (Flame Legion) to a race as a whole (humans).

    Also here's three direct examples, water treatment in Diessa plateau, cleaning up tar to help fishermen in Plains of Ashford, cleaning the lake of tar in fire heart rise, including an event to repair water filtration devices. Those are direct examples of Charr cleaning up after themselves that have nothing to do with picking up scraps or ammo.

    All three of those are cleaning up after the Flame Legion, not after themselves.

    You're turning it into me comparing it to the race's whole and you haven't provided any source for pollution they aren't cleaning up. Try actually playing the game maybe, because the sources I gave aren't flame legion. You strike me as someone who reads about stuff without actually playing much, let alone actually completing the Ascalon maps and paying attention.

    I know I'm biased against Sylvari and Humans, but it's also very clear you're just as biased if not more against Charr and Asura so I don't think this will actually get anywhere. I'm actually willing to admit it though.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 6, 2018

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    You're turning it into me comparing it to the race's whole

    Because that's exactly what you did:

    Yeah I'm talking about the tar, Joko is technically human, or at least originally was though. Which is the point I'm making. It's far far more pollution than in Ascalon, a lot of which only comes from flame legion sabotage. Tar elementals etc, we see the charr set up water treatment machines to clean up pollution, which is better than we did post industrial revolution. The charr already working on cleaner industry shows that their progress will be much smoother environmentally. There is plenty if magical pollution from Asura and white mantle though... which is seen to be worse than industrial. Akin to radiation with more unpredictable effects. Look at the Thaumanova reactor or bloodstone fen or even Lake Doric.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/673475/#Comment_673475

    You say asura and humans are pollutive, claiming such because Inquest, Joko, and White Mantle are pollutive. "Which is the point I'm making."

    I'm not twisting words or putting any in your mouth. That was your own post.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    and you haven't provided any source for pollution they aren't cleaning up.

    Uh, actually, I did. Twice.

    Hell, they have a dump of rusting giant metal cogs right outside their largest city, with absolutely no effort to clean that up. And when they abandoned Sapper's Delve, they didn't even bother to take loose scrap and weapons with them, they just left it as it was, allowing the ogres to take it to make weapons and making humans clean up after them.

    I, however, have not given a link about the air pollution because there's no actual link for the thousands of chimneys throughout Ascalon. Go to any charr town and you'll see them, however. Such as in this picture of the Town of Nageling: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:Town_of_Nageling.jpg Four such chimneys there, and not even a forge.

    And I cannot link to the non-existent air purifying attempts in Ascalon because, well, they don't exist. But the attempts to remove pollution is on you, not me.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Try actually playing the game maybe, because the sources I gave aren't flame legion.

    Ohhhhkay, right. Let me prove you wrong on all three occasions.

    The first you cited was Lake Feritas, which has the heart Help Strum Bassclash secure Lake Feritas that's about cleaning up the tar. The heart NPC says this:

    PC: I'm not doing anything. Want help?
    Strum Bassclash: There's so much to do. We have to keep our eyes open for Flame Legion tricks, for one. I also heard recently that there are drakes bothering the fishermen. I'm not sure where to start.
    PC: What's that about the Flame Legion?
    Strum Bassclash: They show up regularly to try and pollute the lake. You've never seen so many tar elementals. They are a menace.

    Then there is also the event Clear the lake of tar elementals, which begins with this:

    Champion Flame Legion Shaman: Rise my minions and foul the waters of this lake. Show them the power of Baelfire!
    Nexum Stoneclash: Legionnaire! Did you see those Flame Legion down there, corrupting Lake Feritas? There's tar everywhere.

    Second "source" you cited was Blackblade Lake, specifically the southern portion is where the water cleaning occurs, near Ebonshore Plant. In the middle of the lake is the event Prevent the Flame Legion from completing a ritual to pollute Blackblade Lake, which is pretty self-explanatory by the title. The Flame Legion are trying to pollute the lake.

    It should be noted that the Iron Legion there are not cleaning the lake, they're processing it. That's their drinking water. They do clean what they process, for health reasons obviously, but they're not actively cleaning the like unlike the first and third sources.

    Moving on, the third source you presented is Fuller Cistern. Here we have the event Protect Brakkurn and Jhalles while they repair machinery to keep the legions' supply line running and the heart Assist Engineer Verutum which both involve fixing and using machines that clean up tar, as mentioned by Engineer Verutum. So, like the first, this is the Iron Legion cleaning up after the Flame Legion, not themselves.

    I know I'm biased against Sylvari and Humans, but it's also very clear you're just as biased if not more against Charr and Asura so I don't think this will actually get anywhere. I'm actually willing to admit it though.

    Yes, I am biased against charr, because someone biased against charr would have a charr as a main and consider them my favorite race. -rollseyes-

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yes, I am biased against charr, because someone biased against charr would have a charr as a main and consider them my favorite race. -rollseyes-

    This is me not believing you because nothing you have ever said actually indicates this, if anything you act like you favor humans with how caught up you are over their gods.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    Yes, I am biased against charr, because someone biased against charr would have a charr as a main and consider them my favorite race. -rollseyes-

    This is me not believing you because nothing you have ever said actually indicates this, if anything you act like you favor humans with how caught up you are over their gods.

    If anything Konig is one of the most knowledgeable lore masters in this game; i think i know alot of tidbits but Konig knows FAR more about stuff that most people dont even think about that its crazy.

    while the Flame legion burned all of Ascalon, it was King Adelbern who decided to completely end humanity's claim to Ascalon(sure he turned them into eternal ghosts), by destroying his entire kingdom.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Wrecking_Yard The Charr have started recycling old equipment, machines, and weapons for re use which will benefit the environment quite a bit, and while the map hasnt changed to show anything it wouldnt surprise me if they had finally got around to smelting tose massive gears down because that is a ton of iron/steel sitting around it would be far more useful elsewhere.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contain_the_growth_of_the_Dragonbrand I find it highly unlikely that Humans alone would be able to contain the brand as well as the Charr have, and while they didnt make the brand, they are for sure trying to clean it up, as much as possible.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Join_the_Iron_Legion_in_tearing_down_the_Ascalonian_wall Tearing down the wall left by the Ascalon, or trying to. While it may seem odd, the Charr have allowed Ascalon to return to even more of a natural state than Humanity ever did. By destroying all the Cities, walls, and other means that Humanity tries to harness nature and have one big city and mostly tent camps, Ascalon has rejuvenated itself. Eventually yes i could see the Plains of Ashford becoming one big massive Iron Legion settlement, but i dont see them doing that to the other maps as it would bring issues to their food supply, tree supply(Which from what ive seen on the maps the Charr are already doing something weve only started doing and thats planting trees for the sole purpose of cutting them down after a few years.), and their water supply which they do try pretty hard to keep pure.

    Another large thing is that while "cleaning up after their evil faction" may seem small, its leaps ahead of what other races are currently doing, on top of that, cleaning up after the flame legion is probably one of the largest clean up operations in the world, after the searing, even though its been 250 years(Ascalon wouldnt have started to regrow until after the flame legion was pushed back to where they are, and even now they have a large presence) Ascalon wouldnt be able to start healing itself to the point it has without a lot of aid, and a massive replanting operation. I get that nature is great at healing itself, but when you completely eliminate all the plants which is what the searing did, would take a long time to heal without help, ive seen it often enough IRL when it comes to fields that have been retired from farming use.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    Yes, I am biased against charr, because someone biased against charr would have a charr as a main and consider them my favorite race. -rollseyes-

    This is me not believing you because nothing you have ever said actually indicates this, if anything you act like you favor humans with how caught up you are over their gods.

    If anything Konig is one of the most knowledgeable lore masters in this game; i think i know alot of tidbits but Konig knows FAR more about stuff that most people dont even think about that its crazy.

    while the Flame legion burned all of Ascalon, it was King Adelbern who decided to completely end humanity's claim to Ascalon(sure he turned them into eternal ghosts), by destroying his entire kingdom.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Wrecking_Yard The Charr have started recycling old equipment, machines, and weapons for re use which will benefit the environment quite a bit, and while the map hasnt changed to show anything it wouldnt surprise me if they had finally got around to smelting tose massive gears down because that is a ton of iron/steel sitting around it would be far more useful elsewhere.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contain_the_growth_of_the_Dragonbrand I find it highly unlikely that Humans alone would be able to contain the brand as well as the Charr have, and while they didnt make the brand, they are for sure trying to clean it up, as much as possible.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Join_the_Iron_Legion_in_tearing_down_the_Ascalonian_wall Tearing down the wall left by the Ascalon, or trying to. While it may seem odd, the Charr have allowed Ascalon to return to even more of a natural state than Humanity ever did. By destroying all the Cities, walls, and other means that Humanity tries to harness nature and have one big city and mostly tent camps, Ascalon has rejuvenated itself. Eventually yes i could see the Plains of Ashford becoming one big massive Iron Legion settlement, but i dont see them doing that to the other maps as it would bring issues to their food supply, tree supply(Which from what ive seen on the maps the Charr are already doing something weve only started doing and thats planting trees for the sole purpose of cutting them down after a few years.), and their water supply which they do try pretty hard to keep pure.

    Another large thing is that while "cleaning up after their evil faction" may seem small, its leaps ahead of what other races are currently doing, on top of that, cleaning up after the flame legion is probably one of the largest clean up operations in the world, after the searing, even though its been 250 years(Ascalon wouldnt have started to regrow until after the flame legion was pushed back to where they are, and even now they have a large presence) Ascalon wouldnt be able to start healing itself to the point it has without a lot of aid, and a massive replanting operation. I get that nature is great at healing itself, but when you completely eliminate all the plants which is what the searing did, would take a long time to heal without help, ive seen it often enough IRL when it comes to fields that have been retired from farming use.

    All of that seems to support what I've been trying to say though, that the Charr do in fact clean up after their own industry.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    Yes, I am biased against charr, because someone biased against charr would have a charr as a main and consider them my favorite race. -rollseyes-

    This is me not believing you because nothing you have ever said actually indicates this, if anything you act like you favor humans with how caught up you are over their gods.

    If anything Konig is one of the most knowledgeable lore masters in this game; i think i know alot of tidbits but Konig knows FAR more about stuff that most people dont even think about that its crazy.

    while the Flame legion burned all of Ascalon, it was King Adelbern who decided to completely end humanity's claim to Ascalon(sure he turned them into eternal ghosts), by destroying his entire kingdom.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Wrecking_Yard The Charr have started recycling old equipment, machines, and weapons for re use which will benefit the environment quite a bit, and while the map hasnt changed to show anything it wouldnt surprise me if they had finally got around to smelting tose massive gears down because that is a ton of iron/steel sitting around it would be far more useful elsewhere.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contain_the_growth_of_the_Dragonbrand I find it highly unlikely that Humans alone would be able to contain the brand as well as the Charr have, and while they didnt make the brand, they are for sure trying to clean it up, as much as possible.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Join_the_Iron_Legion_in_tearing_down_the_Ascalonian_wall Tearing down the wall left by the Ascalon, or trying to. While it may seem odd, the Charr have allowed Ascalon to return to even more of a natural state than Humanity ever did. By destroying all the Cities, walls, and other means that Humanity tries to harness nature and have one big city and mostly tent camps, Ascalon has rejuvenated itself. Eventually yes i could see the Plains of Ashford becoming one big massive Iron Legion settlement, but i dont see them doing that to the other maps as it would bring issues to their food supply, tree supply(Which from what ive seen on the maps the Charr are already doing something weve only started doing and thats planting trees for the sole purpose of cutting them down after a few years.), and their water supply which they do try pretty hard to keep pure.

    Another large thing is that while "cleaning up after their evil faction" may seem small, its leaps ahead of what other races are currently doing, on top of that, cleaning up after the flame legion is probably one of the largest clean up operations in the world, after the searing, even though its been 250 years(Ascalon wouldnt have started to regrow until after the flame legion was pushed back to where they are, and even now they have a large presence) Ascalon wouldnt be able to start healing itself to the point it has without a lot of aid, and a massive replanting operation. I get that nature is great at healing itself, but when you completely eliminate all the plants which is what the searing did, would take a long time to heal without help, ive seen it often enough IRL when it comes to fields that have been retired from farming use.

    All of that seems to support what I've been trying to say though, that the Charr do in fact clean up after their own industry.

    Which is exactly what i was doing, i was just going way out of my way to provide what i believe as proof, and i really wanna see if Konig has any thoughts on it as well.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Torzini.1523Torzini.1523 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    Yes, I am biased against charr, because someone biased against charr would have a charr as a main and consider them my favorite race. -rollseyes-

    This is me not believing you because nothing you have ever said actually indicates this, if anything you act like you favor humans with how caught up you are over their gods.

    If anything Konig is one of the most knowledgeable lore masters in this game; i think i know alot of tidbits but Konig knows FAR more about stuff that most people dont even think about that its crazy.

    while the Flame legion burned all of Ascalon, it was King Adelbern who decided to completely end humanity's claim to Ascalon(sure he turned them into eternal ghosts), by destroying his entire kingdom.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Wrecking_Yard The Charr have started recycling old equipment, machines, and weapons for re use which will benefit the environment quite a bit, and while the map hasnt changed to show anything it wouldnt surprise me if they had finally got around to smelting tose massive gears down because that is a ton of iron/steel sitting around it would be far more useful elsewhere.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contain_the_growth_of_the_Dragonbrand I find it highly unlikely that Humans alone would be able to contain the brand as well as the Charr have, and while they didnt make the brand, they are for sure trying to clean it up, as much as possible.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Join_the_Iron_Legion_in_tearing_down_the_Ascalonian_wall Tearing down the wall left by the Ascalon, or trying to. While it may seem odd, the Charr have allowed Ascalon to return to even more of a natural state than Humanity ever did. By destroying all the Cities, walls, and other means that Humanity tries to harness nature and have one big city and mostly tent camps, Ascalon has rejuvenated itself. Eventually yes i could see the Plains of Ashford becoming one big massive Iron Legion settlement, but i dont see them doing that to the other maps as it would bring issues to their food supply, tree supply(Which from what ive seen on the maps the Charr are already doing something weve only started doing and thats planting trees for the sole purpose of cutting them down after a few years.), and their water supply which they do try pretty hard to keep pure.

    Another large thing is that while "cleaning up after their evil faction" may seem small, its leaps ahead of what other races are currently doing, on top of that, cleaning up after the flame legion is probably one of the largest clean up operations in the world, after the searing, even though its been 250 years(Ascalon wouldnt have started to regrow until after the flame legion was pushed back to where they are, and even now they have a large presence) Ascalon wouldnt be able to start healing itself to the point it has without a lot of aid, and a massive replanting operation. I get that nature is great at healing itself, but when you completely eliminate all the plants which is what the searing did, would take a long time to heal without help, ive seen it often enough IRL when it comes to fields that have been retired from farming use.

    Good points, especially the one about how the charr trying to tear down the wall of Ascalon is actually allowing the land to start healing itself. I hadn't thought of that.

    Is it just me, or do humans have a habit of massively overreacting and committing mass harakiri when the charr attack them? Adelbern's response to the Foefire, the Cataclysm of Orr. Pretty sure both kingdoms would've been much better off just accepting the charr as their supreme overlords. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:

    Yes, I am biased against charr, because someone biased against charr would have a charr as a main and consider them my favorite race. -rollseyes-

    This is me not believing you because nothing you have ever said actually indicates this, if anything you act like you favor humans with how caught up you are over their gods.

    As someone who played with Konig as far back as 2013? Yes. His main was, and to the best of my knowledge, still is, a charr necromancer.

    Liking charr as a race and liking the human lore from GW1 are not incompatible, you know. I know a lot of people like to make dramatic declarations of taking sides in charr vs. human, but that doesn't mean that every commenter sees it that way.

    (Granted, the rest of this post might undermine my own impartiality...)

    @Torzini.1523 said:

    Also, the charr who caused the Searing are the Flame Legion... who present-day charr are fighting AGAINST. I feel like people forget that. Most charr hate the guts of the Flame Legion, who are the ones who actually destroyed Ascalon, just as much as humans do-- if not even moreso because they misled and enslaved half the race (the females) for decades, if not centuries. Non-Flame charr hate Flame and Searing-type magic with a passion.

    Charr today are not the same as the charr that GW1 fans love to hate. The modern-day charr nation has shaken off the shackles of the Flame Legion and continues to march forward technologically, militarily, ideologically, and culturally. They are now a stoically secular race who are seeking peace with their former enemies.They have developed miles in the lore of GW2, and I love them for it. I hope Anet will continue to show them love in the future.

    I'm going to be that person, but it's worth noting that the charr in GW2 are whitewashing history a bit here. The Shaman caste were the ones calling the shots back then. The Flame Legion was the first to bend the knee, the most closely tied to the shamans, and the only one not to give up the ghost after Kalla's successful revolution... but as of the start of GW1, all four legions had become more-or-less willing collaborators.

    Normally, that doesn't matter. The revolutionaries and the allied legions descended from them, as you pointed out, have in many ways put that history behind them, and that makes it unfair to continue to hold them responsible for the actions of their ancestors. But the Searing, and the conquest of Ascalon as a whole, is a distinct exception. Pyre Fierceshot, father of the revolution, grandfather of the modern charr culture, was proud of his sire's role in the Searing, occasionally to the point of gloating. Bonfaaz Burntfur, the Flame Legion shaman who performed the Searing, is held as a national hero of the Iron Legion to this day. The modern charr can't be absolved of culpability when they still treasure it as one of the proudest moments of their heritage.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Torzini.1523Torzini.1523 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

    I'm going to be that person, but it's worth noting that the charr in GW2 are whitewashing history a bit here. The Shaman caste were the ones calling the shots back then. The Flame Legion was the first to bend the knee, the most closely tied to the shamans, and the only one not to give up the ghost after Kalla's successful revolution... but as of the start of GW1, all four legions had become more-or-less willing collaborators.

    Normally, that doesn't matter. The revolutionaries and the allied legions descended from them, as you pointed out, have in many ways put that history behind them, and that makes it unfair to continue to hold them responsible for the actions of their ancestors. But the Searing, and the conquest of Ascalon as a whole, is a distinct exception. Pyre Fierceshot, father of the revolution, grandfather of the modern charr culture, was proud of his sire's role in the Searing, occasionally to the point of gloating. Bonfaaz Burntfur, the Flame Legion shaman who performed the Searing, is held as a national hero of the Iron Legion to this day. The modern charr can't be absolved of culpability when they still treasure it as one of the proudest moments of their heritage.

    I will accede that point. I've recently come back from a rather long break from Guild Wars and won't pretend to remember everything about its lore, charr lore included. Now that you mention it, I seem to remember a charr NPC (don't remember which one, again, hazy memory) proudly recalling his Searing-era ancestor who was an Axe Fiend,.

    Yeah, wholesale slaughter of innocents is bad. There's no way the Searing can be painted as morally good and I'm in no way arguing that position, but from a realistic standpoint, there was no other way for charr to reclaim the land that the humans had originally stolen from them in the first place. So in that sense alone I'd argue that it wasn't completely unjustified. That's neither here nor there though.

    On the whole, that's one of the great things about how Anet has handled the charr vs. human conflict - it's far from a black and white issue, as wars often are in MMOs, but is instead quite nuanced with both sides having committed rights and wrongs.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Aaron just beat me to the mark - there is really no excusing the Searing. It was over a thousand years since the charr last held Ascalon, and yet they considered it justified to employ what was essentially a magical nuke which devastated both the environment (it doesn't seem to have fully recovered even now) and the civilian population. In addition to "reclaiming their land", the charr also attempted genocide on human nations in lands the charr didn't even have that historical claim to.

    Imagine if, in the real world, nations saw the loss of territory last held twelve centuries ago as justification for war. It'd be a madhouse even if WMDs didn't enter the picture.

    It's also not something you can just attribute to the Flame Legion. Yes, it was the Flame Legion that actually did it, but as Aaron pointed out, most modern charr still approve of the Searing. They disapprove of the Flame Legion using religion as a method of control over the charr, but while they might not like the titans, the majority still appear to approve of what the Flame Legion did to Ascalon (and intended to do to Orr and Kryta) with that power. In their defence, though, it's worth remembering that most adult charr are still used to thinking of humans as a faceless enemy rather than as people - that attitude might change as the peace settles.

    With all that said, though, similar comments could be made about any effort by humans to push the charr out of Ascalon. The charr there have called Ascalon home for generations now, and apart from a lack of remorse for a genocide performed by their ancestors, the modern charr are largely blameless for said genocide. Forcing the charr out now would be behaving little better than the charr did two and a half centuries ago.

    Besides, if humans are in an expansionist mood, they'd have much more justification in looking to reclaim Orr.

    @Genesis.8572 said:

    @dusanyu.4057 said:
    As far as humanity ever retaking ascalon. it will never happen lore paints humanity as a dieing species pushed to one corner and locked in a battle with centaurs determend on their extermination and barely holding there own. Id they tried to reconquer Ascalon they would be mowed over by the char in a matter of days.

    I don't think that this depiction of humanity holds much weight anymore, to be honest, especially when we analyze the lore. Even in the pre-expansion days, this "dying race" idea lost a lot of steam. This idea is less rooted in "lore" and more an initial sales pitch meant to show how dire things have changed for humanity since the previous game, and meant to also build up some excitement for non-human races by taking humanity down a notch. The game depicts, however, humanity firmly holding their ground and fighting back as well. In order for the ball to bounce, the ball must first drop. This was essentially a brief 250-year setback for humanity. The charr were setback by over 1000 years out of Ascalon. Should we have written them off as a dying race too?

    Pretty much this. The 'dying race' trope was something that was mostly said by ruder members of other races that believed/hoped that their race would be the one to achieve primacy after the humans died off, and the fact of the matter is that humanity's position is bouncing back. The main threats to Kryta (apart from the global threats that apply to everyone) are either gone or beaten back. Elona is (SPOILERS) on the track to returning to being genuinely under human control with Joko's consumption by Aurene. It's hard to say how long it will take for Elona to recover from Joko's rule or how the Awakened will respond to Joko's defeat (or whether the ghosts of the Primeval Kings will play a part in Elonian politics now that they've shown that they're capable of leaving their tomb and travelling long distances). It seems quite likely, however, that an alliance between Kryta and Elona would form, and such an alliance could well match or even exceed the allied charr legions in capability to project power (keeping in mind that the charr still have a number of problems in their own lands).

    Politically speaking, though, humans starting a new war against the charr to reclaim Ascalon seems unlikely. One of the ironies of charr-human relations was that it was essentially the qualities that they have in common and which they would otherwise respect in one another that kept them fighting for so long, but fighting together against common enemies can easily change that, and that's happened in recent Tyrian history again and again.

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    (aka making more carbon monoxide)

    Carbon dioxide. Monoxide is not stable enough to last long. Fortunately, you can accelerate plant growth using carbon dioxide, so it's not like the world is ruined. In fact, as long as the legions use wood and charcoal instead of fossil fuels, there's little reason to worry about the tyrian climate. The only hard limit would be their ability to grow trees, and since tyrian saplings take two hours to regrow (empirical value), they should be able to farm wood fairly reliably.

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    Normally, that doesn't matter. The revolutionaries and the allied legions descended from them, as you pointed out, have in many ways put that history behind them, and that makes it unfair to continue to hold them responsible for the actions of their ancestors. But the Searing, and the conquest of Ascalon as a whole, is a distinct exception. Pyre Fierceshot, father of the revolution, grandfather of the modern charr culture, was proud of his sire's role in the Searing, occasionally to the point of gloating. Bonfaaz Burntfur, the Flame Legion shaman who performed the Searing, is held as a national hero of the Iron Legion to this day. The modern charr can't be absolved of culpability when they still treasure it as one of the proudest moments of their heritage.

    Actually, I don't hold it against them. In fact, to claim they are guilty of the Searing, because they hold Burntfur in high regard is untenable. Charr player characters give a good perspective on this when they say "Those were harsh times". Burtfur, his cub, grandcub, etc. They are long gone. The reverence he recieves is similar to the reverence of Vlad III Voivode (Duke) of Wallachia, who had something of a no tolerance policy to people who crossed him. Generally speaking those who attempted to replace him with his brother Radu. Yet I don't hold modern Romanians responsible for what happened in Târgoviște* in 1457. Doing so makes little sense, considering most** of them were not alive during that time and I really doubt that that there are many people in general, who would take scourged earth that far.

    *(The town had supported Radu.)
    **(Can never be too sure.)

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    Double Post, please remove.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Dante.1763 said:
    while the Flame legion burned all of Ascalon, it was King Adelbern who decided to completely end humanity's claim to Ascalon(sure he turned them into eternal ghosts), by destroying his entire kingdom.

    The Flame Legion may have been provided the methods, but it was the shaman caste - who were cross-legion - that performed the Searing rituals, and it was all four legions who approved of the methods (even if they were being led by Flame). Aaron went into more detail there, so I'll leave it there. Plus, it is not Flame nor humans who are building the industrial waste producer that is the Black Citadel - that's a lot of fumes, which has been my main argument, coming out of that city alone.

    @Dante.1763 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Wrecking_Yard The Charr have started recycling old equipment, machines, and weapons for re use which will benefit the environment quite a bit, and while the map hasnt changed to show anything it wouldnt surprise me if they had finally got around to smelting tose massive gears down because that is a ton of iron/steel sitting around it would be far more useful elsewhere.

    The Wrecking Yard is one of the few places I was unmentioningly referring to when I said they picked up scrap metal for smelting. But even that place produces air pollution - pollution exists in more form than tar in water and scrap metal lying about.

    And as I pointed out before, the charr do have a tendency to completely abandon forts that are of no longer use to them, be it due to peace talks or due to encroaching brand, and they leave all the scrap metal there.

    @Dante.1763 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Contain_the_growth_of_the_Dragonbrand I find it highly unlikely that Humans alone would be able to contain the brand as well as the Charr have, and while they didnt make the brand, they are for sure trying to clean it up, as much as possible.

    The charr actually aren't containing the Brand at all. If you go to Sentinel's Perch, the NPCs there all talk about how the Dragonbrand is slowly encroaching and spreading and the Sentinels are powerless to stop it - all they can stop is the Branded, by killing them, which humans do as well (the Sentinels even ask for Vanguard assistance in that). I'd call this a tie between human and charr - between all races, really, given that everyone actively fights dragon minions, and aside from sylvari, none have been capable of reversing dragon corruption in the land.

    @Dante.1763 said:
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Join_the_Iron_Legion_in_tearing_down_the_Ascalonian_wall Tearing down the wall left by the Ascalon, or trying to. While it may seem odd, the Charr have allowed Ascalon to return to even more of a natural state than Humanity ever did. By destroying all the Cities, walls, and other means that Humanity tries to harness nature and have one big city and mostly tent camps, Ascalon has rejuvenated itself. Eventually yes i could see the Plains of Ashford becoming one big massive Iron Legion settlement, but i dont see them doing that to the other maps as it would bring issues to their food supply, tree supply(Which from what ive seen on the maps the Charr are already doing something weve only started doing and thats planting trees for the sole purpose of cutting them down after a few years.), and their water supply which they do try pretty hard to keep pure.

    I would disagree greatly here. While they are tearing down a part of the wall, the entire purpose is to allow passage for their war tanks, and such passages will become roads, it's not for the regrowth of Ascalon or the like. By all accounts, they're only wanting to tear down that one section of the wall, given the complete and total lack of tearing down other portions of the Great Northern Wall.

    As to the ruined towns/cities part, many charr settlements are built atop of human ruins, like Fort Kinar. The ruins which are not built atop of, are actually left alone (though one can argue that this is due to the presence of the ghosts); though some are kept for historical purposes (such as the ruins of Rin). And ruins themselves (or even your average human structure) don't add to air pollution, while smelters and other fume-producing structures (aka your average charr structure) that get built will, be they built atop those ruins or not.

    @Dante.1763 said:
    Another large thing is that while "cleaning up after their evil faction" may seem small, its leaps ahead of what other races are currently doing, on top of that, cleaning up after the flame legion is probably one of the largest clean up operations in the world, after the searing, even though its been 250 years(Ascalon wouldnt have started to regrow until after the flame legion was pushed back to where they are, and even now they have a large presence) Ascalon wouldnt be able to start healing itself to the point it has without a lot of aid, and a massive replanting operation. I get that nature is great at healing itself, but when you completely eliminate all the plants which is what the searing did, would take a long time to heal without help, ive seen it often enough IRL when it comes to fields that have been retired from farming use.

    I wouldn't say it's "leaps ahead what other races are doing" because the other races are doing the exact same thing. Humans are cleaning up after White Mantle, bandits, centaurs, and Toxic Alliance; sylvari clean up after Inquest and Nightmare Court; asura clean up after Inquest court and their own krewes.

    As for the whole regrowth in 250 years being impossible naturally... I'll just point out that ArenaNet has a constant issue with sense of time passage. They constantly treat 200 years as "ancient" and "archaic" in dialogue, and nature has unrealistically changed (for that scope of time) by itself elsewhere between the two games. This no doubt derives from an issue many Americans seem to have with this problem of sense of time and how long it is until something is "old" - probably because of how young the nation is overall. As an American, I can only say that I've met many who fall to this, even family. So I wouldn't put much weight on the drastic changes between games being a sure sign of artificial alteration.

    I will note that I am not saying that charr are massive polluters or aren't responsible for the pollution they produce. I'm saying that they're not "better than humans" at pollution, who produce a pretty bare minimum of pollution. If you exclude the White Mantle and Flame Legion, which two groups produce more pollution in the air, water, or land? There aren't any need to set up filtering devices in Kryta (except where the Toxic Alliance struck), or to clean up the waters, or to pick up scrap metals (except that one skritt heart, off the top of my head). Yet we got many such things in Ascalon. The charr may try to pick up after themselves, but humans don't even show the need to get random hire help to do that.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • kasoki.5180kasoki.5180 Member ✭✭✭

    @Torzini.1523 said:

    Yeah, wholesale slaughter of innocents is bad. There's no way the Searing can be painted as morally good and I'm in no way arguing that position, but from a realistic standpoint, there was no other way for charr to reclaim the land that the humans had originally stolen from them in the first place. So in that sense alone I'd argue that it wasn't completely unjustified. That's neither here nor there though.

    On the whole, that's one of the great things about how Anet has handled the charr vs. human conflict - it's far from a black and white issue, as wars often are in MMOs, but is instead quite nuanced with both sides having committed rights and wrongs.

    Ehmm.... Genocide is definitely not morally grey. And is absolutely not legitimized because somebody "stole" "your" land 1000 years ago. Humans held Ascalon for far longer than Charr ever did and left much greater impact upon it.

    Just because you have "obsession" with certain territory and consider it rightfully "yours" that doesn't mean that any tactics or strategy is acceptable. Especially since that is the land Charr took from others and only held it for like 1/10 of its history.

    From a realistic standpoint, what Charr did was mass war crime and would be considered ultimate cassus belli in modern world. There is absolutely no way to legitimize it

  • Imba.9451Imba.9451 Member ✭✭✭
    edited September 7, 2018

    @Torzini.1523 said:

    Yeah, wholesale slaughter of innocents is bad. There's no way the Searing can be painted as morally good and I'm in no way arguing that position, but from a realistic standpoint, there was no other way for charr to reclaim the land that the humans had originally stolen from them in the first place. So in that sense alone I'd argue that it wasn't completely unjustified. That's neither here nor there though.

    On the whole, that's one of the great things about how Anet has handled the charr vs. human conflict - it's far from a black and white issue, as wars often are in MMOs, but is instead quite nuanced with both sides having committed rights and wrongs.

    We already discussed the point of "reclaiming their land" severeal times, and I greatly agree with Konig here: By that chain of logic, neither humans nor charr have that claim, but Grawles.
    Charr like to depict the searing as "reclaiming their homeland", but let's be real here: Charr are a conquering race. First or not, Charr would have expanded there nontheless, as seen by ther advances towards Orr (wich got stopped by Kilbron) and Kryta (Where they got their kitten kicked by the Mursaat). Ascalon and the wall were in their way, and since they were a very advanced civilization, the only resort Charr could fall back to was nuking them, in order to spread further.
    Noone argues in favor of the Grawles. My assumption is, that noone does because they are stupid and built nothing worth pointing out, neither culturally nor architecture. And the game doesn't give us any reason to believe the charr did.
    Compare that to Ascalonians.

    We could even go full Godwins law here, as the actual conversation leads that way right now. As a german, I can assure you, the moment someone brags about having ancestors that actively helped to commit the atrocoties during WWII, he would get more than a discomforted look (Unless he is around right wing extremeists).

    @kasoki.5180 said:

    Ehmm.... Genocide is definitely not morally grey. And is absolutely not legitimized because somebody "stole" "your" land 1000 years ago. Humans held Ascalon for far longer than Charr ever did and left much greater impact upon it.

    This.
    And, as I said, this Genocide didn't happen in order to "reclaim their homeland", but to conquer. Ascalon was in the way, and after the Charr got beaten on all other fronts (altho Orr kinda beat itself, too...), they stay in Ascalon, live under the shaman caste for a long time until they get "woke", start a revolution and begin stating that the searing was to "reclaim" their homeland.
    Charr Propaganda at it's best.

    Although you have to give credit to Anet. Without that writing, I couldn't enjoy this discussion :)