What's difference between S/D Thief and S/D Daredevil?

I've been getting into PvP and WvW with Thief a lot. A guildie told me to try out S/D Thief and it was great, but I kinda started missing the 3 evades plus the Unhindered Combatant trait.Looked trough a page called Metabattle and couldn't find a S/D DD build and was just wondering why. DD trait gives you some damage from Havoc Mastery (or you could take Brawler's Tenacity for more heals), condi removal when evading with Escapist's Absolution (with DD and Signet of Agility you basically get around 4 dodges) and Unhindered Combatant gives a longer dash + condi cleanse (or you could go Bounding Dodger for more damage). So was thinking you could just swap Acrobatics for Daredevil.The way I see it Daredevil gives you way more survivability and damage than Acrobatics, but then again I'm still kinda a noob thief so I'm looking for someone who could explain this.

@"Patkus.9178" said:I've been getting into PvP and WvW with Thief a lot. A guildie told me to try out S/D Thief and it was great, but I kinda started missing the 3 evades plus the Unhindered Combatant trait.Looked trough a page called Metabattle and couldn't find a S/D DD build and was just wondering why. DD trait gives you some damage from Havoc Mastery (or you could take Brawler's Tenacity for more heals), condi removal when evading with Escapist's Absolution (with DD and Signet of Agility you basically get around 4 dodges) and Unhindered Combatant gives a longer dash + condi cleanse (or you could go Bounding Dodger for more damage). So was thinking you could just swap Acrobatics for Daredevil.The way I see it Daredevil gives you way more survivability and damage than Acrobatics, but then again I'm still kinda a noob thief so I'm looking for someone who could explain this.

Acrobatics is mainly to help them brawl a bit more during a fight. With Instant Reflexes can save them if they get burst or whatever. Plus Swinder's Equilibrium recharges steal for them since they have a sword; which makes it exclusive for them. Using steal a lot more will add to the style making it more beneficial if you use it.With DD, however you lose all that. Yeah you can dodge a bit more and things but the dmg is not much to make it a meta style with S/D.

However, I am a D/P DD so I am telling you from my point of view. And I will let the S/D correct me.

Just remember this... play whatever makes it fun for you and not let people ruin the game for you. If you like it then you have to put effort in to make it work for you. But since it's not "META" you will have a disadvantage.

Trickery and Deadly Arts are good together and great together with Steal and Acro is good with sword/Steal and the concentration is a bonus with the boons you'll take from sword and Steal. Daredevil has better feedback loop with acro and staff or fits like a glove with DA and Trick with d/p.

@Patkus.9178 said:I've been getting into PvP and WvW with Thief a lot. A guildie told me to try out S/D Thief and it was great, but I kinda started missing the 3 evades plus the Unhindered Combatant trait.Looked trough a page called Metabattle and couldn't find a S/D DD build and was just wondering why. DD trait gives you some damage from Havoc Mastery (or you could take Brawler's Tenacity for more heals), condi removal when evading with Escapist's Absolution (with DD and Signet of Agility you basically get around 4 dodges) and Unhindered Combatant gives a longer dash + condi cleanse (or you could go Bounding Dodger for more damage). So was thinking you could just swap Acrobatics for Daredevil.The way I see it Daredevil gives you way more survivability and damage than Acrobatics, but then again I'm still kinda a noob thief so I'm looking for someone who could explain this.

Daredevil may seem like it can give you more survivability, but Acrobatics is the better choice. The reason for that is that Pain Response cleanses damaging conditions when struck as long as your health is below the 75% threshold, Feline Grace gives you vigor when you evade an attack, Swindler's Equilibrium increases the damage on swords and resets your steal skill when you evade an attack and Upper Hand gives you health regeneration and initiative gain when you evade an attack.

Notice the number of times I said 'when you evade an attack'? That sums up the s/d weapon set in a nutshell. It's a weapon set that focuses on evasion and it's the reason why it benefits a lot from Acrobatics. The reason why d/p works better with Daredevil is because d/p doesn't have Infiltrator's Return that cleanses a condition, the swiftness you get from dodging or the amount of evasion s/d gives you. Daredevil gives the d/p thief a third dodge to make it somewhat compete with the evasion from s/d, also the healing skill Channeled Vigor gives you endurance.

Using Deadeye with s/d isn't a bad idea, but you'll be losing a lot of the utility you need to survive as a thief, such as the damage increase for swords, the steal skill reset, vigor etc.

If you're going DrD for S/D you're not replacing Acro with DrD, you're replacing DA. It's meant to be less bursty - more survivability.

The main difference between da/acro/trickery and da/trickery/daredevil is your rotational speed.While you're taking dash (taking bound with S/D is complete bs) you're being uncatchable unless you allow to catch yourself and you're giving up some perfect steal synergy as a trade off. Having dash on top of sword mobility allows you to be as fast at transition between points as mesmer portal appear to be. The issues is that your main ability - steal, where you put 5 major traits out of 9, is on 21 sec cd with no access to reengage in case you missed it. And as dash thief you want to have a kill every steal you hit.

On the other hand, if you're looking at core S/D, swindler's equilibrium puts your steal on effectively 14 sec cd, which adds a lot of value to your other steal traits (improvisation, mug, bountiful, sleight of hand etc.). So basically, by being core you enhance your steal-related trait investments.

Again, the only reason to take acrobatics traitline is swindler's equilibrium trait which empower any sword thief build with big steal invesments.Not only S/d benefit from it. I play core S/P with the same trait distribution and have a huge success with it.

@dDuff.3860 said:The main difference between da/acro/trickery and da/trickery/daredevil is your rotational speed.While you're taking dash (taking bound with S/D is complete bs) you're being uncatchable unless you allow to catch yourself and you're giving up some perfect steal synergy as a trade off. Having dash on top of sword mobility allows you to be as fast at transition between points as mesmer portal appear to be. The issues is that your main ability - steal, where you put 5 major traits out of 9, is on 21 sec cd with no access to reengage in case you missed it. And as dash thief you want to have a kill every steal you hit.

On the other hand, if you're looking at core S/D, swindler's equilibrium puts your steal on effectively 14 sec cd, which adds a lot of value to your other steal traits (improvisation, mug, bountiful, sleight of hand etc.). So basically, by being core you enhance your steal-related trait investments.

Again, the only reason to take acrobatics traitline is swindler's equilibrium trait which empower any sword thief build with big steal invesments.Not only S/d benefit from it. I play core S/P with the same trait distribution and have a huge success with it.

Personally I find that taking Don't stop in the Acro line is also a big payoff for s/d thief. You become all but immune to movement impairing conditions and with the swiftness add on #2 lots of swiftness. In essence outside the added range of a dodge via Unhindered, you are getting unhindered while using Core (or DE). That #2 removes a movement impairing and an added condition on use is quite significant. (dependent on how you fight this can be as good as EA at condition removal)

there is nothing that daredevil offers that acro dosent in terms of suitability so its better to go acro instead of DD because of swindles.

Why not going Acro Trickery Daredevil?I dunno about pvp, but I think in wvw it works nicely.

You lose the damage that deadly arts offers, but if you go sword/dagger you have to run acro in my opinion.

Going acro trick dd is solid for me. Not meta, but solid.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Why not going Acro Trickery Daredevil?I dunno about pvp, but I think in wvw it works nicely.

You lose the damage that deadly arts offers, but if you go sword/dagger you have to run acro in my opinion.

Going acro trick dd is solid for me. Not meta, but solid.

Because using Agro with Daredevil is just overusage of Vigor and Swiftness, etc. It's like instead of 3 trait lines you took only two.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Why not going Acro Trickery Daredevil?I dunno about pvp, but I think in wvw it works nicely.

You lose the damage that deadly arts offers, but if you go sword/dagger you have to run acro in my opinion.

Going acro trick dd is solid for me. Not meta, but solid.

You may as well just play staff and drop Tr for CS while using Upper Hand, though.

Acro + S/D is taken for SwEq in Acro + Improvisation in DA + four different utility skill types, all of which provide negation/evasion = 80% chance to reset at minimum two utilities and 40% chance to reset a 3-condi-cleanse every 10s on average.

For my part I am partial to Trickery/SA/DD because I'm a special snowflake who has to do things different.

I specialise in boon ripping and stealth attacks with S/D

You'd be surprised how much passive damage reduction you get from this build (20% with Weakening Strikes and Rending Shade/an additional 10% with Unhindered Combatant) combined with Trickery allows you to stealth weave (For an additional 25% damage reduction from Resilience of Shadows) And while I am aware that as a Thief I may not ever have the full durability of a warrior/guardian 45-55% damage reduction on top of stacked vitality is nothing to shake a stick at

Skills are dependant on the situation but I generally go between HiS or Signet for my healskill, and Signets of might or agility, Bandit's Defense, and Haste. Ultimate skill is again dependent on my situation.

With this build I obviously sacrifice damage for boon control and survivability, but the damage is within acceptable levels for solo content and the survivability means you won't die just because someone shook a stick at you in pvp. Can't confirm how successful it'd be in a raid tho, depends on if you need a boon ripper or not.

@Patkus.9178 said:I've been getting into PvP and WvW with Thief a lot. A guildie told me to try out S/D Thief and it was great, but I kinda started missing the 3 evades plus the Unhindered Combatant trait.

That is weird because if I would use S/D with DD, I would pick Bounding instead of Dash. The only real reason is that you can do Flanking Strike->Bound->Larcenous Strike with the 10% damage boost. Dash puts you too far from the target most of the time.

The two things I like about DD when using S/D are Channeled Vigor and Bandit's Defense. The former is the best heal skill in my opinion and the latter is the best stun break. You can't find those in Core builds.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Patkus.9178 said:I've been getting into PvP and WvW with Thief a lot. A guildie told me to try out S/D Thief and it was great, but I kinda started missing the 3 evades plus the Unhindered Combatant trait.

OMG I totally forgot channeled vigor exists!

Playing acro really makes me miss Bandit's Defense, but losing condition removal on evade is what hurts me the most.