Is It Just Me Or Do Other Classes Do Thief Better?

I was playing pvp last night with a buddy we are both in gold 3 on the cusp of plat 1. During a game I was just watching mesmers and rangers and just other classes seem to be doing thief better than thief itself. Every class being self sufficient. Able to survive, deal damage, etc. Then I looked at my thief who has pretty much been put into a +1 role that really isn't needed since mesmers are just straight up better.

I watched a mesmer weave in and out of stealth and could not help but go man, they do that with just skills, and here I am the class archetype of attacking from the shadows and I have to blow a 40 second cooldown to gain stealth or most of my initiative.

We need help.

Sometimes, yeah.What I find to be most disturbing is the fact that Thief doesn't even have top dmg while having one of the lowest survibality, being super squishy, etc. I don't count shadowsteping away and escaping as one.When most other classes can do SO MUCH higher DMG than Thief does then why is Thief still the one with worse survivability than them? It doesn't make any sense, right now Thief is worse choice in anything.Thinking of going Thief? Why since Warrior has higher dmg, much higher survivability and with GS even good mobility? Still wanna go Thief? Why since Mesmer has higher dmg, higher survivability, higher evade rate, access to quite a bit of stealth and higher mobility.I just don't understand how is this a thing.Deadeye got quite a bit of rework and I can't tell if it was for the better or not, but I do know that whole Thief and Revenant too, need some very serious rethinking.

@Alatar.7364 said:Sometimes, yeah.What I find to be most disturbing is the fact that Thief doesn't even have top dmg while having one of the lowest survibality, being super squishy, etc. I don't count shadowsteping away and escaping as one.When most other classes can do SO MUCH higher DMG than Thief does then why is Thief still the one with worse survivability than them? It doesn't make any sense, right now Thief is worse choice in anything.Thinking of going Thief? Why since Warrior has higher dmg, much higher survivability and with GS even good mobility? Still wanna go Thief? Why since Mesmer has higher dmg, higher survivability, higher evade rate, access to quite a bit of stealth and higher mobility.I just don't understand how is this a thing.Deadeye got quite a bit of rework and I can't tell if it was for the better or not, but I do know that whole Thief and Revenant too, need some very serious rethinking.

That is pretty much where I am coming from. I told my buddy I was going to play my thief instead of my necro because I honestly love thief. It's always been my class regardless of MMO. But I just even ask myself. Why am I doing this? How come people complain so much about thief killing from stealth, but don't bitch about mesmer? Since when are cloth armor classes tankier than a thief with leather etc.

The other thing that gets me is what seems to be the sheer amount of CC that gets tossed out. Regardless of class I am playing it seems at times I get CCd and just have to sit there and die because I have no amount of stun breaks to counter it.

Welcome to the reason a lot of people stopped playing Thief in this game switching to another main, or quit the game entirely because Thief was the only prof they enjoyed. All the other prof do more damage, have better CC, and are easier to use than the Thief due to A-nets total disregard to Thief prof. Thief is treated like a second class prof in this game while prof like the Mesmer get buffed all the time while doing everything better than the Thief. It's the reason I stopped playing this game, so it's up to you whether or not you want to endure the ridicule of the Thief class OP.

@Doctor Hide.6345 said:Welcome to the reason a lot of people stopped playing Thief in this game switching to another main, or quit the game entirely because Thief was the only prof they enjoyed. All the other prof do more damage, have better CC, and are easier to use than the Thief due to A-nets total disregard to Thief prof. Thief is treated like a second class prof in this game while prof like the Mesmer get buffed all the time while doing everything better than the Thief. It's the reason I stopped playing this game, so it's up to you whether or not you want to endure the ridicule of the Thief class OP.

I play all game modes so I won't stop playing thief. I just hate seeing balance patches where thief gets nerfed for XYZ while other classes do the same thing better and don't get changed. The whole CC thing is easily fixed by putting a DR on consecutive stuns or if your break a stun giving you like 2s of immunity. I mean it is stupid there isn't already.

A good example of this is the Pulm Impact nerfs. Like why? You nerfed a skill that actually rewards player skill. I believe it was nerfed by 15% awhile ago and then another 29% which is almost 50%. Why?

@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 I would actually like to have an explanation on why PI was nerfed.

There a number of reasons a Thief might seem underwhelming when compared to other classes and at core is the design philosophy of the thief versus player perceptions when facing one.

As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. The reset of a fight due to stealth and mobility is because there a smaller health pool , less armor , no blocks, poorer overall healing, less in the way of immunities.

The "thief comes out of stealth and instant downs me" is another complaint this often leading to downtweaks in damage output. This is exactly how a thief is supposed to fight when using stealth. It quick in and out and very often all resources used in that singular attempt. If this attempt fails then the thief is forced to break off and "reset the fight". They can not stick around and trade blows . Now there a whole lot of attacks that can do huge damage but people inherently feel that "if I can see the guy before he downs me with that big attack then it fair" even if they die just as often and more to said attack.

Dodge spam/evade spam/stealth spam and weapon spam are other complaints. Thief does not have a high health pool and is flimsy to other classes. When a class is able to eat 8k in damage just because of higher health and then heal it up right away we as players facing him do not SEE spam because the mitigation is automatic. Thief is FORCED to dodge much more because they do not have that inherent health pool. Thief also does not have the same variety of mitigating skills. We have one block in a singular traitline. We have one passive evade on a 40 second cooldown in a singular traitline. If we do not take those specific traitlines then we have no blocks and no passive evades so rely even more on what we can gain access to more readily and that our dodges and our stealth.

We also have no stability sources meaning our only option when trying to avoid CC are those dodges or that stealth. We just can not ignore attacks because Stability up and running as other classes can.

To weapons and using a singular skill over and over again is another complaint. Again this by design. The big hitting skill is usually tied to one skill because INI controls all skills. It makes no sense to have a finite ini pool that uses 4 different skills for the same thing. People at the receiving end that make this complaint just do NOT understand the thief and do not understand that the thief is more often then not reacting TO what the person who he is attacking is doing. If that person is doing nothing , or can do nothing to counter a given attack then a thief will use that attack several times in a row.

Now as to "do other classes do thief better" ? I am not necessarily of that opinion. I do not think one can look at a singular aspect of a class and conclude that "because another class does THIS better" the thief has no role and is always second best. You have to look at the combination of ALL the facets of the builds together. Speaking in very general terms if there say 10 elements to a game of importance (ie Mobility, damage out , mitigation measures, sustain ) and so on and one class is number 3 in everything while another is number 1 in three of the elements and 10 in the others then the class that is number three in everything is not necessarily worse off. That does not mean I do not think there issues with thief that need to be addressed it just that when comparing class to class we have to look at it holistically.

Hmm. I guess it is matter of perception, and depends on which game mode we're considering.

I do know that a good friend of mine mains a Warrior. He admits he's not the twitchiest of gamers, average reflexes, emotional restraint etc. He's a smart cookie, mind, with a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. Then there's me, a twitchy SOB who licks windows.

Within the context of WvW/sPvP and Fractals, he finds he can get solid, consistent results from his Warrior - but he can't push it any further. I find I can really push my thief, currently a Deadeye, but it takes more effort to get results. The analogy he gave was driving an automatic car versus one with a manual one - if you can really drive, you'll get a lot more out of the manual, tho the automatic will certainly get the job done.

@Scud.5067 said:Hmm. I guess it is matter of perception, and depends on which game mode we're considering.

I do know that a good friend of mine mains a Warrior. He admits he's not the twitchiest of gamers, average reflexes, emotional restraint etc. He's a smart cookie, mind, with a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. Then there's me, a twitchy SOB who licks windows.

Within the context of WvW/sPvP and Fractals, he finds he can get solid, consistent results from his Warrior - but he can't push it any further. I find I can really push my thief, currently a Deadeye, but it takes more effort to get results. The analogy he gave was driving an automatic car versus one with a manual one - if you can really drive, you'll get a lot more out of the manual, tho the automatic will certainly get the job done.

I guess Warrior and Mes is an automatic car with access to manual paddles then...

@"babazhook.6805" said:

As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. The reset of a fight due to stealth and mobility is because there a smaller health pool , less armor , no blocks, poorer overall healing, less in the way of immunities.

I used to see that argument all the time levied at Paladins in WoW (which I mained, full disclosure)."Nerf Paladins because with bubbles and heals, we have to kill them 4 times before they are really dead"Which if you stop and think, means in a 1v1 situation an enemy managed to survive long enough to deplete the Paladin's health pool 4 times over before defeating them. Hardly an argument for nerfs imo.

I haven't taken my Daredevil into WvW or PvP yet, but in PvE, it comes down to very binary gameplay: dodge or die. While I can face tank a bit on my Guardian (who has a similar health pool as a Thief) but he has access to passive healing, reactive healing (+health on attack), 2 healing abilities, 1 healing ability via weapon use (Shield 5), and passive Aegis with 3 on use abilities that give Aegis . That equates to a lot of mitigation.

On my Daredevil, outside of his healing skill his only mitigation is a heal when evading attacks and through crits via Invigorating Precision, which if I didn't need, would gladly swap out for No Quarter for a significant DPS boost.

Yeah, once you play a Thief, it makes a bit more sense.

Imo it all boils down to poor stealth mechanics. Thief is super annoying (not saying good) so if they buffed the damage and or survivability then we could have the Mesmer problem x2.

But yeah it’s lame, I usually play thief/rogue etc type class in MMOs but just can’t justify it right now. Like trying deadeye vs soulbeast, it is just laughable how much more damage the soulbeast does while also being tankier.

I totally agree with everything said here!

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Hmm. I guess it is matter of perception, and depends on which game mode we're considering.

I do know that a good friend of mine mains a Warrior. He admits he's not the twitchiest of gamers, average reflexes, emotional restraint etc. He's a smart cookie, mind, with a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. Then there's me, a twitchy SOB who licks windows.

Within the context of WvW/sPvP and Fractals, he finds he can get solid, consistent results from his Warrior - but he can't push it any further. I find I can really push my thief, currently a Deadeye, but it takes more effort to get results. The analogy he gave was driving an automatic car versus one with a manual one - if you can really drive, you'll get a lot more out of the manual, tho the automatic will certainly get the job done.

lol well... =)

@Scud.5067 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Hmm. I guess it is matter of perception, and depends on which game mode we're considering.

I do know that a good friend of mine mains a Warrior. He admits he's not the twitchiest of gamers, average reflexes, emotional restraint etc. He's a smart cookie, mind, with a PhD in Mechanical Engineering. Then there's me, a twitchy SOB who licks windows.

Within the context of WvW/sPvP and Fractals, he finds he can get solid, consistent results from his Warrior - but he can't push it any further. I find I can really push my thief, currently a Deadeye, but it takes more effort to get results. The analogy he gave was driving an automatic car versus one with a manual one - if you can really drive, you'll get a lot more out of the manual, tho the automatic will certainly get the job done.

It's a very solid comparison hah.

@Dralor.3701 said:Imo it all boils down to poor stealth mechanics. Thief is super annoying (not saying good) so if they buffed the damage and or survivability then we could have the Mesmer problem x2.

But yeah it’s lame, I usually play thief/rogue etc type class in MMOs but just can’t justify it right now. Like trying deadeye vs soulbeast, it is just laughable how much more damage the soulbeast does while also being tankier.

The key difference and this was tested with my buddy is when a thief stealths. They will be revealed if they hit with their stealth attack or do any damage. A mesmer can weave stealth especially well on condi mirage. As condition ticks dont break stealth. I can't backstab someone and restealth immediately.

So you really wouldn't have mesmer x 3. IMHO

@"babazhook.6805" said:There a number of reasons a Thief might seem underwhelming when compared to other classes and at core is the design philosophy of the thief versus player perceptions when facing one.

As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. The reset of a fight due to stealth and mobility is because there a smaller health pool , less armor , no blocks, poorer overall healing, less in the way of immunities.

The "thief comes out of stealth and instant downs me" is another complaint this often leading to downtweaks in damage output. This is exactly how a thief is supposed to fight when using stealth. It quick in and out and very often all resources used in that singular attempt. If this attempt fails then the thief is forced to break off and "reset the fight". They can not stick around and trade blows . Now there a whole lot of attacks that can do huge damage but people inherently feel that "if I can see the guy before he downs me with that big attack then it fair" even if they die just as often and more to said attack.

Dodge spam/evade spam/stealth spam and weapon spam are other complaints. Thief does not have a high health pool and is flimsy to other classes. When a class is able to eat 8k in damage just because of higher health and then heal it up right away we as players facing him do not SEE spam because the mitigation is automatic. Thief is FORCED to dodge much more because they do not have that inherent health pool. Thief also does not have the same variety of mitigating skills. We have one block in a singular traitline. We have one passive evade on a 40 second cooldown in a singular traitline. If we do not take those specific traitlines then we have no blocks and no passive evades so rely even more on what we can gain access to more readily and that our dodges and our stealth.

We also have no stability sources meaning our only option when trying to avoid CC are those dodges or that stealth. We just can not ignore attacks because Stability up and running as other classes can.

To weapons and using a singular skill over and over again is another complaint. Again this by design. The big hitting skill is usually tied to one skill because INI controls all skills. It makes no sense to have a finite ini pool that uses 4 different skills for the same thing. People at the receiving end that make this complaint just do NOT understand the thief and do not understand that the thief is more often then not reacting TO what the person who he is attacking is doing. If that person is doing nothing , or can do nothing to counter a given attack then a thief will use that attack several times in a row.

Now as to "do other classes do thief better" ? I am not necessarily of that opinion. I do not think one can look at a singular aspect of a class and conclude that "because another class does THIS better" the thief has no role and is always second best. You have to look at the combination of ALL the facets of the builds together. Speaking in very general terms if there say 10 elements to a game of importance (ie Mobility, damage out , mitigation measures, sustain ) and so on and one class is number 3 in everything while another is number 1 in three of the elements and 10 in the others then the class that is number three in everything is not necessarily worse off. That does not mean I do not think there issues with thief that need to be addressed it just that when comparing class to class we have to look at it holistically.

This is a very thorough post and you are definitely correct. I guess my issue is in reality lack of mitigation to stuns etc tied along with our mediocre damage.

I carry three stun breaks on my utility bar. Without stability access it’s often the difference between life and death.

@saerni.2584 said:I carry three stun breaks on my utility bar. Without stability access it’s often the difference between life and death.

Hey Saerni, you have helped me before in game. If you don't mind could you hook me up with your build be it in game or whatever? Just curious as it just seems regardless of how much I dodge etc there is just so much cc it does not matter at all.

@"babazhook.6805" said:As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. ...

Depending on the context that is a perfectly justified complaint, in PvP being able to reset/disengage is fine because there is some degree of balance, because if I start losing on my thief and decide to disengage, then I am losing a capture point (normally), have just made ineffective use of my time with no contribution toward winning match, etc, essentially I am still getting punished for being outplayed / making mistake, even if I remain alive.

However if I am roaming in WvW then the fact I can reset a fight in most cases is completely broken because unlike PvP I am not punished for disengaging / resetting a fight I think I am losing, so essentially am not being punished for my bad play, mistakes or simply the other player outplaying me, that breaks a very fundamental rule of game design, especially when it comes to PvP type play - 'risk vs reward', which is of course why anyone who wants ezmode for roaming in WvW goes with thief (or mes).

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I carry three stun breaks on my utility bar. Without stability access it’s often the difference between life and death.

Not saying it’s enough lol. But I count Shadowstep as two stun breaks because of the return and it works for disrupting multiple chain cc builds. I’m also running Deadeye so Mercy rounds it out.

But I do run a more stealth oriented style so I’m probably avoiding some of the cc that way.

@saerni.2584 said:

@omgdracula.6345 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I carry three stun breaks on my utility bar. Without stability access it’s often the difference between life and death.

Interesting!

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. ...

wvw is basically a huge spvp map that works slower. if a thief keeps attacking you off an objective and resetting the fight, then move it to one and take it, flip a camp, a sentry or kill a dolyak, there you have the loss for the thief.

another point is what people roam with. in sPvP you do what the role of your build is. in WvW people dont care about this and think they can roam on any build, this results obviously in complains about the more optimal builds for the task. i mean you dont hear me complaining that i cannot run infront of the zerg healling my allies and drowning them in boons while curing their conditions for example, thats just not what my thief is supposed to do so i dont try to do that. mesmer and thief are indeed among the best solo roamers with serveral builds suited for this depending on roamingstyle. you may call it ezmode or simply picking a build suited for the task.what really is ezmode in roaming is taking some friends with you and that is what many do. running around in a little group of 3+ so no solo roamer can touch them unless they are terribly bad.the solo roamers job is to kill other solo roamers or ones that wish they were solo roamers , disrupting supply rountes , maybe scouting enemy troops and infiltrating structures. keeping them from doing that by forcing a reset is a loss for them.a group doing this together is ezmode because its safer but the fact that they are multiple players doing the job of one means they are inefficient there you go risk/reward.solo roaming on a nekro however has nothing to do with risk vs reward, its just stupid, just like a thief trying to heal.

tldr: if roamers would see WvW as a competitive mode, then resetting a fight would matter as much as in spvp.

@"Sylosi.6503" said:However if I am roaming in WvW then the fact I can reset a fight in most cases is completely broken because unlike PvP I am not punished for disengaging / resetting a fight I think I am losing, so essentially am not being punished for my bad play, mistakes or simply the other player outplaying me, that breaks a very fundamental rule of game design, especially when it comes to PvP type play - 'risk vs reward', which is of course why anyone who wants ezmode for roaming in WvW goes with thief (or mes).

I kinda disagree with that. My reasons would be:

• The game is not balanced for 1v1 in any way. Disengaging because you are losing is not "your bad play" only, but also a bad match up.
• If your build allow for disengage, its because you are sacrificing something to your build to make it happen. A thief without Shortbow, Shadow Step, Shadow Trap, Swiftness, Long term stealth and Unbound Dodge can't disengage anyone.

The whole risk vs reward on Pvp is also kinda overated IMO. I've being playing PvP RPG for years and the top builds are usually the "less risk, easy rewards" kinds.

"High risk, High rewards" builds are merely clutch builds on PvP.Before the risks and rewards, players give priority for stuff that works.

@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"babazhook.6805" said:As example the complaining "A thief can just reset a fight if in trouble". This argument should be a non starter . When a thief resets a fight it because they are in trouble, be it low on health or on INI and at the same time the person they are facing has the upper hand. If a thief "always resetting a fight" then the thief is obviously coming out second best in those encounters. ...

Well I see it entirely differently. When I am one of my warrior builds facing a thief build that just resets a fight i KNOW I can beat him because he is the one that breaks off the fight. There is no need for me to down him. If he just keeps running off I go on my way. It sort of like those guys that fight right at castle or keep portals that dash out, get some licks in and then run back inside when in trouble. Why should that bother me? I just go elsewhere.

Now If YOU are on any build from warrior to thief or Necromancer to Ranger and are roaming solo when you run into 4 guys that try and chase you down , are you goind o "stand and fight" or use the tools available to you to break off that fight and try and get away? If the latter then why shoudl a thief be forced to stay in a fight he not going to win?

It's not so much that thief is weak so much that the other professions have been powercreeped into absurdity and given the things which justified the thief being in its previous state.

ANet isn't designing professions/specs for the PvP environment and I don't think they have since before HoT. It's this reason I've stopped playing entirely. I'll come back when they can prove they're ready to make necessary, sweeping change to concepts that are just downright busted and not thought out in the PvP/WvW contexts.

There's really nothing more to say at this point. Our last balance patch was underwater changes for PvE balancing. Most of the previous patches and designs have been pertinent to PvE only with no regard for the implications to the competitive modes.