Souls and the Afterlife

I am curious, I have been working on personal projects and such dealing with Guild Wars and Tyria and I have been unsure about some things having to do with souls. We seem to have seen that souls go to the Underworld to be judged and from there sent out to their various afterlifes and such, am I correct in believing this?

My biggest concern revolves around souls that have been consumed. We have seen a lot of this throughout the history of the game, ranging from the Bloodstones to the Terrorweb Dryders to Balthazar and Dhuum. My question is, and we may have no answer for it, once a soul is consumed (unless the being that consumed it is destroyed) does that soul just get used up and cease to exist? Or is there a fate worse awaiting them? (I'm almost seeing a place where souls that have been drained of all their energy just languish in misery kind of like Joko's pit of no longer useful awakened.) Any thoughts or ideas?

in the Guild Wars franchise, "souls" is something very open and problematic to model. There are spirits of things like catapults and weapons.

in PoF history, The Departing theres mention to "soul extinction"

! The Judge: If you were to defeat the beast and claim its power, that life energy might be strong enough to reanimate your body.! The Judge: Allowing you to go back.! The Judge: But if you were to fail, the beast would consume your entirety.! The Judge: I could grant you no final reward or punishment. Your spirit would simply cease to be.!! https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Departing

I do understand that, you are probably right. Still, obviously just consuming a soul doesn't destroy it, because killing the soul eater releases a large amount of souls, so then you wonder how long it takes before the soul ceases to exist. It's just a hard pill to swallow that some of our beloved characters and friends may be lost forever.

@"Narcemus.1348" said:I do understand that, you are probably right. Still, obviously just consuming a soul doesn't destroy it, because killing the soul eater releases a large amount of souls, so then you wonder how long it takes before the soul ceases to exist. It's just a hard pill to swallow that some of our beloved characters and friends may be lost forever.

It may be a type of "fate worse than death" trope. Like the Lost souls in Beetleguise. They were a type of death for the dead but they still "existed" in some beleaguered form.

@"Narcemus.1348" said:We seem to have seen that souls go to the Underworld to be judged and from there sent out to their various afterlifes and such, am I correct in believing this?

Yes and no. This was largely the case presented in GW1, and believed by humans in GW2, but we've never heard of a non-human getting judged by Grenth and his envoys outside of the Domain of the Lost. However, there are cases where souls go to their rightful afterlife without being judged (or can even be hijacked from going to the Underworld by demonic forces).

My biggest concern revolves around souls that have been consumed. We have seen a lot of this throughout the history of the game, ranging from the Bloodstones to the Terrorweb Dryders to Balthazar and Dhuum. My question is, and we may have no answer for it, once a soul is consumed (unless the being that consumed it is destroyed) does that soul just get used up and cease to exist? Or is there a fate worse awaiting them? (I'm almost seeing a place where souls that have been drained of all their energy just languish in misery kind of like Joko's pit of no longer useful awakened.) Any thoughts or ideas?

It's ultimately unclear. From what we've seen, except possibly in cases like Dhuum, devouring a soul takes centuries to digest. In GW1, there was a quest where we save souls eaten 200 years ago. Just like with the Eater of Souls, if a demon or other similarly mortal entity is killed then the soul will be released. Beyond Dhuum, we've never really told of a case of a soul being finished devoured, and it's not something very easy to see.

It should be noted that the Bloodstone's a bit different than being eaten by a demon. The souls of those killed on the bloodstones were transferred into soul batteries, which seemed linked to the Realm of Torment once used to close the Door of Komalie given the description ("[...] time and their imprisonment has changed many of them. But not all of us were transformed into those hideous things. [...] thank you for releasing me from my eternal torture." mirrors Underworld quest dialogue "many souls which should not have been consigned to such a fate were cast down into the pit. Most have been lost forever, but a few remain who have not yet been driven to madness. I shall make it possible for them to escape the realm of torment.") and that we find Khilbron's soul in the Realm of Torment without anyone known to destroy that soul battery (especially given the Door remained closed).

So in a way, the souls can be transported and moved, they can also move on their own accord and travel through the mists.Also, they can be absorbed, or rather adsorbed into objects or other beings.Adsorption, since we encounter ghosts of 250 years ago in Bloodstone Fen, we free people from demons, and even Gorseval, which seems to be many smaller ghosts pretending to be one big scary entity, breaks down into its constituent ghosts.The interesting question is: What happens to the adsorbed entities? Since it's possible to restore them, there must have been some trace of them left, but hidden.

This supports my theory of how the forged work: Some poor ghosts are abducted from the mists and forced into a construct. This is similar to the Exalted, humans, who voluntarily move into a suit of armor and Belinda Delaqua, who moved into a greatsword. Does this technically make the Exalted undead, or does the constructed body fit more closely into golem territory?

If I'm understanding the adsorbtion article, that's talking about, effectively, coating Material A (the object/being) with Material B (the soul). Which wouldn't be true, since the soul is trapped inside the object or being.

As for exalted, they would be closer to golem territory, I imagine, as undead do not require a soul (the more intelligent ones, like Awakened, do seem to house souls however those like the Orrian undead from GW1, or Oberan's undead, show no sign of having souls, similarly minions created by players in both games show no sign of having souls). Similar creatures would be the Shiro'ken from Factions, which were made by Shiro Tagachi forcing souls into soul stones and used them to power suits of metal, stone, and bone.

@"Narcemus.1348" said:I am curious, I have been working on personal projects and such dealing with Guild Wars and Tyria and I have been unsure about some things having to do with souls. We seem to have seen that souls go to the Underworld to be judged and from there sent out to their various afterlifes and such, am I correct in believing this?

My biggest concern revolves around souls that have been consumed. We have seen a lot of this throughout the history of the game, ranging from the Bloodstones to the Terrorweb Dryders to Balthazar and Dhuum. My question is, and we may have no answer for it, once a soul is consumed (unless the being that consumed it is destroyed) does that soul just get used up and cease to exist? Or is there a fate worse awaiting them? (I'm almost seeing a place where souls that have been drained of all their energy just languish in misery kind of like Joko's pit of no longer useful awakened.) Any thoughts or ideas?

It seems to be psychological oblivion instead of misery. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/River_of_Souls these are souls drained of all their energy. They were said to have lost their existence and become mindless husks of spirit. And the demons that dammed the river feasted on the scraps of consciousness leftover.

It doesn't say what happened to them afterwards. But given that everyone experiences the Departing it's probably the same throughout. I would even venture all souls are composed of aether and memories like the Sylvari, and take similar amounts of time to be processed. After all Glint could use telepathy/memory crystals on everyone without the mind domain. And all faith magic generates either light/lightning/azureflame, elements of the sky, while channeling memories using chants, urns, etc.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"Narcemus.1348" said:I am curious, I have been working on personal projects and such dealing with Guild Wars and Tyria and I have been unsure about some things having to do with souls. We seem to have seen that souls go to the Underworld to be judged and from there sent out to their various afterlifes and such, am I correct in believing this?

My biggest concern revolves around souls that have been consumed. We have seen a lot of this throughout the history of the game, ranging from the Bloodstones to the Terrorweb Dryders to Balthazar and Dhuum. My question is, and we may have no answer for it, once a soul is consumed (unless the being that consumed it is destroyed) does that soul just get used up and cease to exist? Or is there a fate worse awaiting them? (I'm almost seeing a place where souls that have been drained of all their energy just languish in misery kind of like Joko's pit of no longer useful awakened.) Any thoughts or ideas?

Hmm, so the abyss seems to be where souls that have been drained are dumped, but what is interesting is that the souls that we find had been pulled out from the river still seem to be conscious and fine. Not like how the description makes it seem they should be.

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I am curious, I have been working on personal projects and such dealing with Guild Wars and Tyria and I have been unsure about some things having to do with souls. We seem to have seen that souls go to the Underworld to be judged and from there sent out to their various afterlifes and such, am I correct in believing this?

My biggest concern revolves around souls that have been consumed. We have seen a lot of this throughout the history of the game, ranging from the Bloodstones to the Terrorweb Dryders to Balthazar and Dhuum. My question is, and we may have no answer for it, once a soul is consumed (unless the being that consumed it is destroyed) does that soul just get used up and cease to exist? Or is there a fate worse awaiting them? (I'm almost seeing a place where souls that have been drained of all their energy just languish in misery kind of like Joko's pit of no longer useful awakened.) Any thoughts or ideas?

Do they have their memories/personality/etc, or do they display bits of humanity like Risen. The game takes a philosophical position that you stop existing when your sentience leaves. Your body and spirit can be stored for reuse but you are gone.Also the souls in the river with partial consciousness are eaten by demons, but the rest are likely vacant.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I am curious, I have been working on personal projects and such dealing with Guild Wars and Tyria and I have been unsure about some things having to do with souls. We seem to have seen that souls go to the Underworld to be judged and from there sent out to their various afterlifes and such, am I correct in believing this?

My biggest concern revolves around souls that have been consumed. We have seen a lot of this throughout the history of the game, ranging from the Bloodstones to the Terrorweb Dryders to Balthazar and Dhuum. My question is, and we may have no answer for it, once a soul is consumed (unless the being that consumed it is destroyed) does that soul just get used up and cease to exist? Or is there a fate worse awaiting them? (I'm almost seeing a place where souls that have been drained of all their energy just languish in misery kind of like Joko's pit of no longer useful awakened.) Any thoughts or ideas?

I feel like I recall the spirits celebrating after we free them all, but otherwise, I don't know how to answer that question

the soul can project the body and spirit.

and then materialism happened.

but those who still know the fundamentals can easily manipulate or replace the system.

@Narcemus.1348 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Narcemus.1348 said:I am curious, I have been working on personal projects and such dealing with Guild Wars and Tyria and I have been unsure about some things having to do with souls. We seem to have seen that souls go to the Underworld to be judged and from there sent out to their various afterlifes and such, am I correct in believing this?

My biggest concern revolves around souls that have been consumed. We have seen a lot of this throughout the history of the game, ranging from the Bloodstones to the Terrorweb Dryders to Balthazar and Dhuum. My question is, and we may have no answer for it, once a soul is consumed (unless the being that consumed it is destroyed) does that soul just get used up and cease to exist? Or is there a fate worse awaiting them? (I'm almost seeing a place where souls that have been drained of all their energy just languish in misery kind of like Joko's pit of no longer useful awakened.) Any thoughts or ideas?

I'd take a moment to stress that what's said in the gw.dat files are not strictly canon. It gives a hint on the nature of the River of Souls, but not a definitive case.

Given that the Gate of Pain mission was to remove the dam and let the river flow freely, it is unlikely that the spirits were actively wanting to get sent into some sort of storage abyss. Jutuk tells us "Before you can face Abaddon, you must first free the tormented souls in the river. Abaddon's allies and minions gain power from those souls. Break the dam that holds them back, and the souls will find their way home. That will help a great deal." Suggesting that they'd go to their rightful afterlife, and not some abyss. Throughout the mission, it's all talk about "freeing" and "saving" the spirits. Sending them into an abyss is not saving them.

And we now see a River of Souls in the Underworld, where the lore presented there is that it is a passage of souls which got redirected (again) to feed Dhuum this time around. Desmina states in Hall of Chains: "The spirits of the newly dead now flow up the River of Souls directly to the Hall of Judgment. To Dhuum."

Combine both missions, and it's suggested that the newly dead travel along the River of Souls to their rightful resting place. That twice (at least) the forces of Dhuum have blockaded / redirected the River of Souls for their own purposes. The abyss may be Dhuum's force's own "holding cell" for souls yet to be devoured, most likely, if it's at all still part of canon lore (there is literally no mention of an abyss other than that gw.dat mention and in Jadoth's cry to Abaddon for the "knowledge of the Abyss").

Even ignoring how trying to compare a fictional polytheistic pantheon to a monotheistic faith is foolhardy, you're literally proclaiming Jesus is evil here, which is... definitely an instigating move. Either way, it is not Dhuum who sits in the Hall of Judgment as judge, but instead Dhuum sits as prisoner within the Hall of Judgment. He overtook it for GW2, but for millennia it has been where he was chained for judgment, not as judge.

The "judge" of the Hall of Judgment was Grenth. That's why constant dialogue proclaims that Grenth "judges the dead" and one of Grenth's lieutenants is literally called The Judge.

There really is no biblical comparison for Dhuum afaik, as no being in Christianity is for total entropy of souls.

Further, Abaddon's very name actually comes from the Bible. In Revelations, it is the name of the Destroyer, the Angel of the Abyss.

"Dhuum sits as prisoner within the Hall of Judgment. "

imprisonment implies residency. and residency implies dominion. look at real world prison systems, they have an internal "government" there where there are prisoners ruling.

and you just contradicted what you said,

"The spirits of the newly dead now flow up the River of Souls directly to the Hall of Judgment. To Dhuum."

So if spirits go "To Dhuum", then it follows that Dhuum will judge them, no?

GW1 wiki

"Abaddon is the fallen God of Water and Secrets, and is the main antagonist in Guild Wars Nightfall."

Except, in Guild Wars 2 the souls flowing to Dhuum are being consumed by him in order to empower himself. That is from heresay, though, I haven't been able to find a group to actually play it with.

@"alcopaul.2156" said:"Dhuum sits as prisoner within the Hall of Judgment. "

eternal prisoner is synonymous to permanent resident. look at real world prison systems, they have an internal "government" there where there are prisoners ruling.There's a pretty huge difference between someone who lives in a house, and someone who's chained up in a house's basement while the house's owner is upstairs.

Hell, Dhuum doesn't rule the Underworld either. Grenth did, until he left, and after he left Grenth left the Seven Reapers in charge. Dhuum was trying to usurp reign, but never succeeded (though he was winning when we arrive).

@"alcopaul.2156" said:"The spirits of the newly dead now flow up the River of Souls directly to the Hall of Judgment. To Dhuum."

So if spirits go "To Dhuum", then it follows that Dhuum will judge them, no?Dhuum isn't judging the souls. He redirected the flow of spirits (they're not supposed to go there!) in order to eat them, thus empowering himself, or convert them into Nightmares to serve his army.

@"alcopaul.2156" said:GW1 wiki

"Abaddon is the fallen God of Water and Secrets, and is the main antagonist in Guild Wars Nightfall."This changes nothing of what I said. Just because he's the god of water doesn't make him equivalent of or inspired by John the Baptist...

@Narcemus.1348 said:Except, in Guild Wars 2 the souls flowing to Dhuum are being consumed by him in order to empower himself. That is from heresay, though, I haven't been able to find a group to actually play it with.The dialogue is up on the wiki, with both Desmina and Glenna.

who lives in the hall of Judgment? Dhuum. What is his domain? hall of Judgment. So Dhuum judges. It should be renamed Hall of Dhuum's Eatery if you are persisting on what you think.

Abaddon is God of Water. John The Baptist is the master of Water Baptism. John the Baptist knows water very well.

2 Corinthians 5:10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Jesus = Judge.

John = Abaddon. Jesus = Dhuum.

This makes just about as much sense as saying that a person imprisoned in a cell in a police precinct is obviously a police officer. Because they are being housed there. But this is the last time I will respond to your posts, because they are taking the discussion I created off topic and are not helping in the slightest. I would suggest others do the same. If anyone has any new light to shed on the subject of GW2 souls and the Afterlife, I would be glad to hear it, though.

Study this statement carefully.

Desmina states in Hall of Chains: "The spirits of the newly dead now flow up the River of Souls directly to the Hall of Judgment. To Dhuum."

to the Hall of Judgment. To Dhumm.

English grammar will say to you that the Hall of Judgment is Dhumm's domain.

@"alcopaul.2156" said:English grammar will say to you that the Hall of Judgment is Dhumm's domain.

No, actually, it just says that Dhuum is currently located at the Hall of Judgment, not that it is his domain. There's a pretty big difference.

But to use quotes, to hopefully end this:

"It's odd. I thought after you died, you were sent to the Hall of Judgment so that Grenth could choose your eternal fate. At first, I was relieved to find myself here instead, but...I don't want to be stuck here for eternity either."https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Clear_the_Chamber

"Now that we are free, we shall seek the judgment of Grenth. May he consider how we suffered here before choosing our fate in the Underworld."https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Slaves_of_Menzies

"Long have the bards sung of Grenth's defeat of Dhuum, the former ruler of the Underworld. With the help of the rebellious Reapers, Grenth usurped Dhuum's throne. But the books and songs only tell part of the tale. You see, Dhuum was not fully destroyed; Grenth was simply not powerful enough to slay him. Instead, he forced Dhuum into a state of dormancy and imprisoned him within the Hall of Judgment, trapped behind massive enchanted doors and layers of divine magic. There Dhuum remained, slumbering...waiting. But his torpor is not so heavy that Dhuum does not occasionally wake."https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Something_Wicked_This_Way_Comes

"The moment we have long dreaded has arrived! Dhuum is breaking free from the Hall of Judgment! Should he seize control of the Underworld, Dhuum's reign will be brutal and uncompromising, for he is the Final Death, and he does not tolerate resurrections or the undead. There is still one slim hope, a shadow of a chance to hinder Dhuum's return. Grenth's seven faithful Reapers will channel their energy in an attempt to force Dhuum back into dormancy. But the Ender of All is a powerful adversary, and the Reapers cannot face him alone. Protect the Reapers while they perform their grim task. At least one of the seven Reapers must survive to seal Dhuum within the Hall of Judgment."https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Nightman_Cometh

Player Character: How did Dhuum get free?Desmina: With every death, he grows stronger. Dhuum devoured souls for centuries to regain the power to break his bonds.Desmina: He then manipulated the river and corrupted much of the Underworld.Desmina: He's seizing territory to mount his escape to the mortal realm.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Desmina#Dialogue

This is just a minuscule part of all the dialogues throughout the game that state, very clearly, that a) Grenth, not Dhuum, judges the dead, and that b) the Hall of Judgment is Grenth's home, and Dhuum's prison.

Dhuum taking over the Hall of Judgment would be akin to Satan conquering the pearl gates. In this hypothetical situation, you would be saying that Satan is, in fact, none other than St. Peter.

If this post won't end your off-topic tirade that bares provoking religious arguments, I'll do as Narcemus said he'll do.

U can also say that it's Called the Hall of judgement cuz dhuum was judged there and not because He is judging anyone.

In a way it would make Sense for souls to cease existance After being devoured completly and the process of being consumed is the "worse than being dead" Part

This is true, I could definitely see that having everything that is you slowly ripped out of your soul over the course of centuries would be horrific. Though it should be noted that the spirits who are freed from these creatures never seem traumatized...

Since you actually decided to expand your argument for once...

@alcopaul.2156 said:But you're forgetting the fact that Dhuum is the Original Boss of The Hall of Judgment. He just switched places with Grenth.

Nope. Dhuum's home was a tower built in what is now the Chaos Plains. Grenth tore this tower, never named, down.

"Before the time of Grenth, when death was ruled by a cruel and unjust god, there stood a tower and a throne on this very plain. But Grenth rose up and destroyed the one called Dhuum and shattered down his tower, leaving only these storms of chaos as a reminder of the power once held dominion here. My vigil over these lands was broken for a time, and I can feel a resurgence of the old taint. Four horsemen approach, riders of Dhuum. Destroy them before they can reclaim this place and throw the underworld into chaos!"https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Four_Horsemen

@alcopaul.2156 said:So Tracing back, Dhumm is the Judge Originale.

Dhuum is the original god of death, but he did not judge. He sentenced all to ultimate oblivion, regardless of innocence.

That's not a judge. That's an executioner.

@alcopaul.2156 said:Dhuum and Abaddon? You may wonder, why they were overthrown?

Coz Jesus and John.Because Dhuum wanted to kill everyone. Because Abaddon declared war on the other gods.

Does Jesus wish for all life to cease? Did John want to overthrow the roman emperor?

No.

Your attempts to relate the two are so very loosely tied, they hardy hold weight. Grenth and Dhuum are pretty heavily inspired by the Grim Reaper, and Grenth similarly further inspired by Hades from Greek myth. Both of their appearances in GW1 hold ties to the Grim Reaper, with Grenth depicted as a man wearing a skull in a tattered robe, and Dhuum being literally a skeleton in a decrepit robe wielding a scythe.

Abaddon and John hold no similarity other than some, rather loose, ties to water. John may have been a baptist, but nothing in his story really relates him to water.

"Dhuum is the original god of death, but he did not judge. He sentenced all to ultimate oblivion, regardless of innocence."

HOW DO SENTENCING WORK? YOU JUDGE FIRST RIGHT?

LEL