(Deadeye) Am I over-rating Improvisation?

..on a rifle DE (DA/TR/DE), with three utility skill categories?

Formerly, I'd go for Improvisation in my Might sharing DE build. I'm often enough on the occasion a skill category does refresh, it can be a good, nay great thing. However, on the current rifle DE is that with our relatively easy stealth access and the options the rifle offers I'm finding less of a need for a lucky skill recharge. Things die when approached properly and if they don't, relying on RNG to bail me out is perhaps a crutch.

And yet at the back of my mind, I know Improvisation is still a great skill choice.

Still, I've been playing with Executioner for the last week or so and for predominately ranged, pressure play, things have been working out really well. Its not as theoretically sexy as Improvisation, but on the rifle DE, especially one who tends to lay more shots rather than one mega-shot, that extra damage is rather nice. And it is reliable.

So, what do you think, those that actually use Improvisation - is it time for me to move on? Am I over valuing the skill on the rifle DE? Obviously I'd enjoy spending more weeks playing between the two and I hope you good folks can chip in with your experience.

I switch between them pretty often. Hovering around the generic Conquest build Executioner+Be Quick is a tight opener that leaves less room for things to go wrong or less time for them to react. Improv is still a good short term sustain though with something like One in the Chamber staggering it out until it's time to close in or get away. Plus, stolen skill does it's thing as long as you have something targeted and at range and out of line of site if your target is in line of site and they can be stealthed or popped off while you're on your ass from knockdown or whatever. Both are awesome but I probably use Executioner most of the time.

My choice is between Potent Poison and Improv. Improv gets you more stolen skills but that is somewhat redundant with One in the Chamber. The skill refresh is also redundant somewhat with Payback (although that won’t work as well in WvW/PvP).

So I’d say you are better off taking the Executioner/Potent Poison oath merely because Deadeye has both parts of improv in more consistent (if less powerful) versions.

That said, I do think improv improves sustain so if you don’t need the damage and want more survivability you have that option.

Yes, impro is gabage for deadeye because mark and imrpo have bad cooldown synchronization. 17 sec mark and 20 sec impro..

Hmm, I've not explored One in the Chamber, preferring Malicious Intent, with which I can quickly hit maximum Malice.

Thank you both for your input. Thinking about it more, Improvisation does allow me to generate Might quicker when coupled with Fire for Effect, bring me to 17 -23 Might at the very start of the fight/after DT , 25 shortly after, a good portion of which I can share.

Perhaps the question is, would you rather start out stronger, quicker, or have more kick when the target is below 50%. Though the increase in Might sharing make Improvisation more suiting a Might share build.

@Urejt.5648 said:Yes, impro is gabage for deadeye because mark and imrpo have bad cooldown synchronization. 17 sec mark and 20 sec impro..

I hear you. This one the main reasons I've started to look elsewhere.

Perhaps I can move away from focusing on getting max stacks of Might asap - and sharing.

Tho I do like sharing!

Hmm

EDIT:

On one hand, yes 20 second internal CD on Impro means, with DE Mark refreshing on kill, we may be getting less bang for our buck. On the flip side, using stolen skills twice synergizes very well with FfE, grant a chunk (and sharing) a chunk of Might early in (and during an extended) fight.

I personally find that Potent Poison is a better choice even when using a Power build in WvW. It's not about the condition damage but it's about the long duration of the -33% heal on target.

In my opinion, -33% heal is more than 20% damage boost from Executioner without the health threshold requirement. Seeing my target heal all the way back up after hitting 50% health makes Executioner less and less appealing to me.

Improvisation lost its appeal when it gained an ICD and with the addition of two more utility types (physical and cantrip). So expecting Improvisation to reset anything is never a good idea. Not to mention, with Trickster the two Trick skills I use (Withdraw and Scorpwire) are both under 20s CD, so Improv is not a good pick. Also the fact that F2 has a casting time makes using it a DPS drop so using it twice is not ideal.

Both Exec and Improv have annoying hoops we have to jump through and Potent Poison is the most reliable trait.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:I personally find that Potent Poison is a better choice even when using a Power build in WvW. It's not about the condition damage but it's about the long duration of the -33% heal on target.

In my opinion, -33% heal is more than 20% damage boost from Executioner without the health threshold requirement. Seeing my target heal all the way back up after hitting 50% health makes Executioner less and less appealing to me.

Improvisation lost its appeal when it gained an ICD and with the addition of two more utility types (physical and cantrip). So expecting Improvisation to reset anything is never a good idea. Not to mention, with Trickster the two Trick skills I use (Withdraw and Scorpwire) are both under 20s CD, so Improv is not a good pick. Also the fact that F2 has a casting time makes using it a DPS drop so using it twice is not ideal.

Both Exec and Improv have annoying hoops we have to jump through and Potent Poison is the most reliable trait.

Thank you - an interesting read.

I think it makes more sense to just take CS over DA if not using Improv.

Mark is required to be applied at the start of the fight so it's not like you're healing with Mug, and the damage gains from just EW and Mug if opting out of Executioner are less than CS when you look at the sheer damage DE offers, and Executioner doesn't really work with DE because the entire spec is basically designed to one-shot people.

It seems like a huge investment for what basically amounts to some weakness uptime. And with silent scope, shadow meld, and shadowstep for kiting and maintaining range to prevent getting hit to begin with, what exactly are you gaining from the weakness, anyways? Panic Strike isn't exactly winning the DE fights.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:I personally find that Potent Poison is a better choice even when using a Power build in WvW. It's not about the condition damage but it's about the long duration of the -33% heal on target.

In my opinion, -33% heal is more than 20% damage boost from Executioner without the health threshold requirement. Seeing my target heal all the way back up after hitting 50% health makes Executioner less and less appealing to me.

Improvisation lost its appeal when it gained an ICD and with the addition of two more utility types (physical and cantrip). So expecting Improvisation to reset anything is never a good idea. Not to mention, with Trickster the two Trick skills I use (Withdraw and Scorpwire) are both under 20s CD, so Improv is not a good pick. Also the fact that F2 has a casting time makes using it a DPS drop so using it twice is not ideal.

Both Exec and Improv have annoying hoops we have to jump through and Potent Poison is the most reliable trait.

I think some of us did the math one time and determined that the ELITE skills were not factored in if one did not take any of the Elites as far as reset goes. In other words if in CORE thre 5 types. If you take one of the slites there 6 types. The "reset" of a skill on cooldown is less a factor then it was before given if you in an elite you get a lower percent chance and there more variance now in utilities taken (I always found if just one utility reset it not that big a deal but if two reset it well worth it)

The major reason I would stay improv would be the double stolen item usage.

@Scud.5067 said:_..on a rifle DE (DA/TR/DE), with three utility skill categories?

@DeceiverX.8361 said:I think it makes more sense to just take CS over DA if not using Improv.

Mark is required to be applied at the start of the fight so it's not like you're healing with Mug, and the damage gains from just EW and Mug if opting out of Executioner are less than CS when you look at the sheer damage DE offers, and Executioner doesn't really work with DE because the entire spec is basically designed to one-shot people.

It seems like a huge investment for what basically amounts to some weakness uptime. And with silent scope, shadow meld, and shadowstep for kiting and maintaining range to prevent getting hit to begin with, what exactly are you gaining from the weakness, anyways? Panic Strike isn't exactly winning the DE fights.

Oh well op, try all the different builds tonight and see which ones look good on paper and which ones you're actually confident with when you dive into a fight.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:I think it makes more sense to just take CS over DA if not using Improv.

Mark is required to be applied at the start of the fight so it's not like you're healing with Mug, and the damage gains from just EW and Mug if opting out of Executioner are less than CS when you look at the sheer damage DE offers, and Executioner doesn't really work with DE because the entire spec is basically designed to one-shot people.

It seems like a huge investment for what basically amounts to some weakness uptime. And with silent scope, shadow meld, and shadowstep for kiting and maintaining range to prevent getting hit to begin with, what exactly are you gaining from the weakness, anyways? Panic Strike isn't exactly winning the DE fights.

The weakness is of greatest help against any class that can port to and or uses Range . IE it works best against Longbow rangers or d/p thief. Fights have gone overhwelmingly in my favor just because I got weakness on with the steal and their opening attacks have a number of fumbles. It of less use against classes that rely less on that burst or range albeit the Poison nice against Warrior.

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:I personally find that Potent Poison is a better choice even when using a Power build in WvW. It's not about the condition damage but it's about the long duration of the -33% heal on target.

In my opinion, -33% heal is more than 20% damage boost from Executioner without the health threshold requirement. Seeing my target heal all the way back up after hitting 50% health makes Executioner less and less appealing to me.

Improvisation lost its appeal when it gained an ICD and with the addition of two more utility types (physical and cantrip). So expecting Improvisation to reset anything is never a good idea. Not to mention, with Trickster the two Trick skills I use (Withdraw and Scorpwire) are both under 20s CD, so Improv is not a good pick. Also the fact that F2 has a casting time makes using it a DPS drop so using it twice is not ideal.

Both Exec and Improv have annoying hoops we have to jump through and Potent Poison is the most reliable trait.

Yes, you're right. That sentence was poorly written. I didn't mean to imply that the chances become 1:7. It's 1:5 for Core and 1:6 if Elite is chosen.

Cheers all - great stuff. Appreciated.

@babazhook.6805 said:The major reason I would stay improv would be the double stolen item usage.

Yeah, this is where my head's been at. The reset is a nice boon, but its frosting on the cake.

@Scud.5067 said:Cheers all - great stuff. Appreciated.

@babazhook.6805 said:The major reason I would stay improv would be the double stolen item usage.

Aye, this is my primary usage of it. The reset is an afterthought and the double stolen item is what I need it for, though I am in the midst of trying to find a way to get more usage out of the reset without anything clashing.