What could be the other spheres of the Elder Dragons?

There are 12 spheres in opposition. It's implied Kralkatorik's second sphere is Air and Jormag's is Spirit.But that still leaves Bubbles and PrimordiusCrystal - Bubbles1Air - Bubbles2Fire - IcePrimordius2 - SpiritPlant - DeathMind - Shadow

Which part of Kralkatorik is opposed by water and which part of Primordius by spirit/emotion?

I wouldn't consider them all opposites. Though there is the suggestion that Plant is opposite of Death (because "Plant=Life" apparently >.>) just as Fire opposes Ice would suggest Crystal has an opposite, the same isn't really true for the secondary spheres. Mind and Shadow, for example, don't really show any opposing features.

That said, other than the suggestions of Sky (I would say Sky over Air since the Zephyrite crystals consist of lightning, wind, and most importantly: Sun) and Spirit, it'd be hard to say.

This curious response by a dev could suggest the old theory that Kuunavang is a champion of the DSD may hold weight. Though there's a likely greater chance that Peter was referring less to Kuunavang in the thread and more to the OP's theory of Kuunavang being a DSD champion. Either way, if so, her ties to Celestial magic may indicate the DSD's second sphere being Stars.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I wouldn't consider them all opposites. Though there is the suggestion that Plant is opposite of Death (because "Plant=Life" apparently >.>) just as Fire opposes Ice would suggest Crystal has an opposite, the same isn't really true for the secondary spheres. Mind and Shadow, for example, don't really show any opposing features.

The other spheres seem like just positive/negative themes of the same concept i.e life/undeath, and heat/cold.

Mind/shadow could be dreams/nightmares, inspiration/fear, etc.

This sounds cheesy. But the principles behind the deadeye are similar to the dead Eye of Zhaitan. We hear of Mesmer transferring their mind to specialized phantasms, but we don't hear of them, or any other caster, enhancing their senses.

shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

Edit: Crystal is probably opposed to Steve's Water sphere (both Glint and Kraalkatorik found the Crystal Desert hospitable, deserts are lacking in water, crystals dissolve in water, etc.)

Edit 2: I'm inclined to think that Steve's secondary sphere is something nasty and Lovecraftian, like Madness. And that would probably oppose Mind fairly well.

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

There also a couple instances that Zhaitan’s minions are invisible, in this case these were Risen wraith during What Eye Beholds. They are roaming the ship until Traheane reveals with his necromancy.

I also notice Zhaitan has command of Orrian weapons, which seem to be animated. We only tend to find these in Orr, not sure if this is a trait of shadow magic or left over magic that the Orrians of Old used before the Cataclysm, which somehow got corrupted by Zhaitan.

The last point with shadow magic is how the Risen spawn. Certain times in the game, Story mode Arah being an example. The Risen just suddenly appear with black smoke on the airships, just before the Dragon champion fight, during the fight and also during the fight with Zhaitan. I also notice that if you run around Orr and kill the Risen, when they respawn they appear in exactly the same with the black shadowy smoke. There could be some other examples that I’m missing as well.

@"perilisk.1874" said:Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

Edit: Crystal is probably opposed to Steve's Water sphere (both Glint and Kraalkatorik found the Crystal Desert hospitable, deserts are lacking in water, crystals dissolve in water, etc.)

Edit 2: I'm inclined to think that Steve's secondary sphere is something nasty and Lovecraftian, like Madness. And that would probably oppose Mind fairly well.

We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

I would agree Crystal goes with Water. Dry vs wet, shore v sea, solute vs solvent fits in nicely with hot vs cold and life vs undeath. And the representation during the Forgotten Trials was a spring of damaging saltwater.

This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

The Giganticus Lupucus shadow walks to you. It feels like if undeath is the opposite of life, there should be some undeath equivalent of mind magic. Especially now in POF where we are running into awakened with diverse sentience. And Joko was able to raise and lower Talkhora's at will.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

@"perilisk.1874" said:Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

Kralkatorrik itself has a lot of "thunderstorm that causes darkness" stuff to it, with not much in the way of light (just red and purple lightning). So I wouldn't be so sure there.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

Not really sure about that, tbh, at least no direct influence. Especially the lightning bit.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

Every Elder Dragon is mentally tied to their minions. We see this in Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik just as well as with Zhaitan (in that order of revelation too), all long before some "Mind dragon" came about. The different Mordremoth has is that his domain of mind allows him to transfer his mind to other parts of his corruption and be capable of micromanaging telepathy with every minion as opposed to some generic "the minions hear their master's will while the dragon gets its minions' knowledge" stuff; Kralkatorrik seems to be using it to connect minions to each other mentally.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

We actually do not know they balance each other out. Hell, we don't know if Mordremoth and Zhaitan do, technically, it's just that the writing team of Season 3's Episodes 3 and 6 decided to put hints about it but we never got confirmation and, in all honesty, those hints make us question everything else we learn about the dragons' weaknesses in that season.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

I wouldn't relate the DSD to fear, since Zhaitan had a pretty heavy presence with fear. Hell, there's an entire story arc where Zhaitan is supposedly trying to utilize your fear to weaken the Commander (the Greatest Fear arc, named that by the playerbase for a very specific reason).

It would kind of be like stepping on toes if the DSD's original second sphere was some sort of fear/darkness and Zhaitan's second sphere was Shadows that include darkness and fear.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"perilisk.1874" said:Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

So I spent some time going through every Risen mob and recording all of the shadow steps and shadow references as well as certain teleports. There are a few enemies that appear to be using Mesmer teleports or blinks, I didn’t Include them.

Risen Nobles:

So all the Risen Nobles of every difficulty variety shadow step and have thief abilities, what different is that when they shadow step and find their target they drop an aoe weakness. Not sure why the Nobles are all thief characters, hard to say. Also Risen worshippers follow the same profile as the Nobles, but different name.

Risen Wraith:

Most variety of these guys as well as named entities have a teleport mechanic. Not sure if this based off of Elementalist or not. The names entities seem to use elementalist abilities, while the regular variety use necro abilities.

Risen Subjugator:

Necros andctgey use an ability called shadow orb. Simple Ranged attack. A certain Acolyte of Melandru also uses shadow orb.

Risen Contender:

Use a mix of warrior abilities and shadow steps.

Risen Attendant:

These guys shadowstep and use symbols.

Prince Nekandezzar:

Uses thief abilities including Shadow strike.

Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan:

SEZ teleports as well, not sure if he is designated to a profession, maybe Mesmer. Uses unique skills.

Giganticus Lupicus:

Uses Lupine Blast which Shadow Walks to opponent.

Just a note, Konig mentioned Fear as a possible application of shadow magic sphere, a lot of the Risen and I mean a lot use Fear in their attacks.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"perilisk.1874" said:Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

He is referring to the aspect of Sun.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

In prophecies, the Dark arts were not Dark magic combined with athletic ability. They were Blood magic, Death magic, and various techniques. With Deadeye we learned Shadow Magic was the name of a magical component of Shadow Arts. But it is not necessarily the only aspect.

We know of two types of Nightmares. Twisted nature spirits like Vaettirs and entities of the Mist like the Shadow army or Aatxe. Neither are souls per se.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

Ice is crystalline water. Fire is just gas and plasma. Lightning is plasma generated by the friction of ice in clouds. In addition, plants are made of water and crystals. Destroyer aren't even made of fire. The spheres are probably as literal as Air Magic.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

• Zhaitan retrieved knowledge/secrets from corpses, and bestowed abilities it did not possess. (Just like Joko/necros).
• Kralkatorrik's descendants can hear/transmit/store thoughts from/for all races. I assume something like crystal radios that can be tuned to neuroelectricity, a magical fMRI.
• Jormag can influence/bind will/emotion through the spirit.

These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

I looked into their Lovecraftian suggestion. And the minions of the DsD were described by Quaggan/Largos/Inquest as monstrous/horrific. Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

• The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
• Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

Not to put words in Konig’s mouth, but I believe he was referring to this from Gw1.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_damage

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"perilisk.1874" said:Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

But even the Aspects of Wind and Lightning are pretty bright, compared to the thunderstorms and sandstorms of the branded and Dragonbrand. And the closest thing to the Aspect of Sun we see Kralkatorrik using is the golden gale of fiery breath used to in the creation of the Dragonbrand during Edge of Destiny.

There's not much "brightness" in Kralkatorrik's use of the theorized Sky/Air sphere. Aspect of Sun or no.

This is very similar to how sylvari are very vibrant and bright colors, while Mordrem are very dull and dark colors.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts

is

Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

I never proclaimed anything about "dark arts" (which itself is a very ambiguous thing) - I said Shadow Arts. With the reference of Prophecies, I'm referring to, on top of what @"Tyson.5160" said, dark damage. In GW1, magical damage types were visible with the scepters and staves as uniquely different orbs launched out, and each type of damage had different strengths and weaknesses. These orbs were, naturally, magic, and had a very clear difference. They were all linked to: Holy (Light), Chaos, Fire, Cold (Ice), Lightning (Air), Dark and Shadow. For some reason, Dark and Shadow were different (mechanically, one ignored armor the other didn't), despite the orb attack being the same animation; there were more shadow damage attacks than dark (only one skill produced dark damage) while more weapons used dark rather than shadow damage.

Shadow Arts is a completely different thing from "dark arts" which is, more often than not, used to reference evil/forbidden magic, and not a specific type of magic like air magic or chaos magic. Shadow Arts is a discipline of assassins which combined shadow magic with athletic abilities. Much like we see with theives, hence their own trait line of the same name which deals with stealth and shadowstepping.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

I wouldn't call that "stretched" so much as "not scientific approach of molecules and atoms", really.

Which is downright common across all fantasy settings.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• Zhaitan retrieved knowledge/secrets from corpses, and bestowed abilities it did not possess. (Just like Joko/necros).
• Kralkatorrik's descendants can hear/transmit/store thoughts from/for all races. I assume something like crystal radios that can be tuned to neuroelectricity, a magical fMRI.
• Jormag can influence/bind will/emotion through the spirit.

Joko and necromancers do not gain the knowledge from corpses. They have to vocally tell such to the necromancer in question, if the undead is even capable of such. With risen, they didn't.

Glint is specifically stated to be unique in her telepathy. Aurene has this, but there's zero evidence Vlast did.

There is zero evidence Jormag can do such.

And you completely ignore Primordus, who is established to have a hive mind back in Eye of the North.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.That's not really true. We know for a fact, as provided by ArenaNet developers, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree is not her own doing, but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

Weaknesses are pretty damn important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses.> @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I looked into their Lovecraftian suggestion. And the minions of the DsD were described by Quaggan/Largos/Inquest as monstrous/horrific.To be fair, +EVERY+ dragon minion is described as monstrous, twisted, terrible and horrific.

"Gunnar's Hold fell to monsters of ice, and the Norn were driven southward into the empty territory that had once been held by the Dwarves."

"Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon's flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed."

"Risen from the ocean by the will of a powerful undead dragon, Orr no longer stands under human control. The beings roaming those lands are twisted, perverted remnants of Orr's once-magnificent culture."

"Though Arah lies in ruins, conquered by the dragon and its minions, those who venture onto Orrian soil say they have seen her spired towers, bedecked with rotted banners and guarded by twisted, draconian troops."

"This story began with a human soldier named Ronan whom, while separated from his patrol, discovered a cavern filled with strange seed-pods. This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled, clinging to a single seed to show his daughter when he returned home from war."https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

That's just one source, but there's many of them. Most references to dragon minions use some form of those words.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

Because dark energy is the type of magic.

Multiple practices can use a singular type of magic (aka type of energy), as we see all over. But it's uncommon if not downright never seen for two types of magic to house the same effects.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
• Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion. The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic".

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@"derd.6413" said:shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

And I was responding to a person that referenced shadow in terms of Gw2.

The Shadow damage type mechanic and it separation from the Dark damage type mechanic does not exist anymore.

Assassins practiced magic but it was not called Shadow magic. That term first existed with Deadeye. And is probably the reason the Dark arts were never called Dark magic.

At this point Thieves should be grouped with Necromancers and not Mesmers.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"perilisk.1874" said:Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

Undeath is still death and Mordrem is still life. Twisted light would still be counteracted by twisted darkness.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts

is

Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2.

The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently.

Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic.

Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• Zhaitan retrieved knowledge/secrets from corpses, and bestowed abilities it did not possess. (Just like Joko/necros).
• Kralkatorrik's descendants can hear/transmit/store thoughts from/for all races. I assume something like crystal radios that can be tuned to neuroelectricity, a magical fMRI.
• Jormag can influence/bind will/emotion through the spirit.

No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge.

Glint is specifically stated to be unique in her telepathy. Aurene has this, but there's zero evidence Vlast did.

Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it.

There is zero evidence Jormag can do such.

Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will.

And you completely ignore Primordus, who is established to have a hive mind back in Eye of the North.

Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.That's not really true. We know for a

fact

, as

provided by ArenaNet developers

, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

Transcending the body is not mutually exclusive with controlling an aetherial consciousness.

And Mordemoth's massive amounts "telepathy" is nothing like Glint & co. He connected a bunch of shit and used it to send impulses.

Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree is not her own doing, but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

The Pale Tree can attach her children to a mindscape, and see/influence the flow of information. She doesn't read minds.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I looked into their Lovecraftian suggestion. And the minions of the DsD were described by Quaggan/Largos/Inquest as monstrous/horrific.To be fair,

+EVERY+

dragon minion is described as monstrous, twisted, terrible and horrific. [snip]

Fair.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

Boons and conditions would imply otherwise. And if elemental energy can be divided into five and then divided again into aspects why not other stuff.

Spectral for steath and teleportation. Space for gravity.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
• Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion.The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic"

It definitely is magical terror when cast by Soulbeast. And black holes aren't shadows.There is an unrepresented natural darkness that is separate from Zhaitan. And wasn't inflicted on the living by Mordremoth.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses. The same way that Kralkatorrik is using Death Magic to create branded from corpses. We are not sure how Jormag made the Death/Plant magic Icebrood though. Likely Jormag can make Icebrood from the dead as well. The only dragon just seems to infuse his minions with the Death and Plant magic itself is Primordus, probably because he can create minions at a whim, though in theory he too should be able to raise the dead.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

After Mordremoth absorbed Death he began cloning the dead. He did not mix energies. He did not raise corpses. He did not restoreor transfer the original skills of his minions. Even clones could not access their counterparts abilities that fell outside his domain. And when they died he grew new ones.

Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

Yes, but he still used a corpse as fuel to make a minion. It wasn’t an undead minion, but he physically took a corpse, placed it in a Blighting pod and created a minion from it. Now what I think your saying is that Mordrem didn’t use Death Magic itself, which is true, but in terms of taking counterparts abilities, that I would have to disagree as the clones pretty use the exact same abilities that the original used. Take the Saurians or the Itzel Mordrem for example.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Undeath is still death and Mordrem is still life. Twisted light would still be counteracted by twisted darkness.Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2.

The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently.

Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic.

Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc.The previous game remains canon. So yes it is still canon.

Not saying the Deadeye hasn't honed shadow magic, I'm saying it's not the first to use it which you are.

Dark Arts is not a singular concept in Tyria. It is used equally to refer to necromancy as well as evil/forbidden magic (Anet really cannot be consistent enough here). For example

There were two primary dwarven factions. Deldrimor relics heal or empower users. The Stone Summit's relics tended towards the dark arts and demonic pacts.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Innkeeper_Klement

Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next.https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nulfastu_Earthbound

Given the description you use, you're likely thinking of the thief/assassin trait/attribute: Deadly Arts.

And no, Shadow Arts is more than focusing on infusing weapons with magic. There's some pretty obvious magic in [shadow]() [Arts](). In GW1, there were very few equipment-based skills in Shadow Arts. And in GW2, it's more about stealth than shadowstepping. Shadow Arts has always been "the magical attribute" for assassins, or "the magical traitline" for thieves. It is Deadly Arts that is more of a mixture of weapons infused with magic than direct casting.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge.Undead cannot mentally transfer their knowledge to their creator. This is a fact, proven by the fact that players don't learn everything they turn into a minions.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it.Crystallizing memory is not the same as reading thoughts or granting visions (the latter Glint never did, btw, and supposedly Aurene could only do due to making us her champion, how she did it to the rest of Dragon's Watch is unclear).

And if two beings out of thousands are the only ones to have a specific talent, then yes, it remains unique.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will.Which relates to the soul... how?

The Mists is not something restricted to the soul. For Havrouns, especially, since they can physically enter the Mists through the Spirits of the Wild powers, and the portal opened by injuring the Wolf Havroun allowed the Svanir to do exactly that.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity.And a natural "creature to entity" (or more accurately, "minion to dragon") mental bond is exactly what you denied to exist among Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik by presenting some obscure reference to how their own domains allow the transfer to knowledge and thoughts.

Kralkatorrik's newfound domain of Mind has zero influence on the fact that he already had this "minion to dragon" mental bond, and that Jormag, Zhaitan, and Primordus also have this.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.That's not really true. We know for a

fact

, as

provided by ArenaNet developers

, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree

is not her own doing,

but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

Wow, you're bad at this.

You've been proclaiming that the spheres balance each other out, because Jormag's and Primordus' do. But Jormag's and Primordus' are weaknesses, while Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's are not. There's nothing to suggest that Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's spheres must balance each other out, except for contradictory lines and mechanics that suggest this balancing is further weaknesses atop of their apparent weakness.

This means that either:a) "balancing spheres" are also "a secondary weakness" and that Jormag's and Primordus' primary, unique, weakness which is presented by the Novans has yet to be found; this would contradict the fact Mordremoth was even capable of eating Zhaitan's death sphere and that sylvari necromancers exist orb) the spheres don't actually balance each other out in pairs, and that Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's apparent "life and death" (or more accuturately, plant and undeath) are mere coincidence; this would contradict the fact that the Unstable Abomination was harmed by exposure to plant and undeath magic.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

As for elemental energy, that's just a categorization of multiple magical types. It's the same as grouping light, dark/shadow, and chaos magic into a singular "metaphysical magic".

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
• Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion.The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic"

And the one who brought up gravity as some sort of "darkness" magic was you, so why are you now disagreeing with yourself?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Undeath is still death and Mordrem is still life. Twisted light would still be counteracted by twisted darkness.Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2.

The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently.

Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic.

Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc.The previous game remains canon. So yes it is still canon.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge.Undead cannot mentally transfer their knowledge to their creator. This is a fact, proven by the fact that players don't learn everything they turn into a minions.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it.Crystallizing memory is not the same as reading thoughts or granting visions (the latter Glint never did, btw, and supposedly Aurene could only do due to making us her champion, how she did it to the rest of Dragon's Watch is unclear).

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will.Which relates to the soul... how?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity.And a natural "creature to entity" (or more accurately, "minion to dragon") mental bond is exactly what you denied to exist among Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik by presenting some obscure reference to how their own domains allow the transfer to knowledge and thoughts.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.That's not really true. We know for a

fact

, as

provided by ArenaNet developers

, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree

is not her own doing,

but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

• The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
• Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion.The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic"

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Daniel Handler.4816 said:Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

You could also make the argument with the Shadow of the Dragon using the Shadow Magic Sphere with what we have learned about the dragon’s and proximity when gaining certain abilities. This is potentially another sphere of Zhaitan’s that Mordremoth used without exploding as well. Especially if Mordremoth only gained a fixed amount of shadow magic and decided to imbued into one of his powerful Lieutenants.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

Minor note: This is not True, Mordrem Trolls are like Destroyer Trolls, they are still purely creations, not corruptions.

@"Tyson.5160" said:You could also make the argument with the Shadow of the Dragon using the Shadow Magic Sphere with what we have learned about the dragon’s and proximity when gaining certain abilities. This is potentially another sphere of Zhaitan’s that Mordremoth used without exploding as well. Especially if Mordremoth only gained a fixed amount of shadow magic and decided to imbued into one of his powerful Lieutenants.

Possible, though less Shadow of the Dragon itself and more the mordrem that spawns near it during the second encounter: Shadow Tendrils, Smothering Shadows, and Malformed Shadows. Though the later two (if not the first) could be argued to be magic summoned by the Shadow of the Dragon rather than independent mordrem.

All three basically look like mordrem minions with death shroud, not dissimilar to Death-Touched Destroyers (the wiki's image of that guy is with low post-processing so it doesn't show the shadow effect seen on them) and the Death-Branded Test Subject.

@STIHL.2489 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

Actually, that would be untrue. Both the model and confirmation by Scott McGough makes it clear that Mordrem Trolls (and Wolves) as seen in Silverwastes are corrupted animals. To quote:

Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything.