What could be the other spheres of the Elder Dragons? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

What could be the other spheres of the Elder Dragons?

Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
edited May 31, 2018 in Lore

There are 12 spheres in opposition. It's implied Kralkatorik's second sphere is Air and Jormag's is Spirit.
But that still leaves Bubbles and Primordius
Crystal - Bubbles1
Air - Bubbles2
Fire - Ice
Primordius2 - Spirit
Plant - Death
Mind - Shadow

Which part of Kralkatorik is opposed by water and which part of Primordius by spirit/emotion?

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Comments

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    I wouldn't consider them all opposites. Though there is the suggestion that Plant is opposite of Death (because "Plant=Life" apparently >.>) just as Fire opposes Ice would suggest Crystal has an opposite, the same isn't really true for the secondary spheres. Mind and Shadow, for example, don't really show any opposing features.

    That said, other than the suggestions of Sky (I would say Sky over Air since the Zephyrite crystals consist of lightning, wind, and most importantly: Sun) and Spirit, it'd be hard to say.

    This curious response by a dev could suggest the old theory that Kuunavang is a champion of the DSD may hold weight. Though there's a likely greater chance that Peter was referring less to Kuunavang in the thread and more to the OP's theory of Kuunavang being a DSD champion. Either way, if so, her ties to Celestial magic may indicate the DSD's second sphere being Stars.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I wouldn't consider them all opposites. Though there is the suggestion that Plant is opposite of Death (because "Plant=Life" apparently >.>) just as Fire opposes Ice would suggest Crystal has an opposite, the same isn't really true for the secondary spheres. Mind and Shadow, for example, don't really show any opposing features.

    The other spheres seem like just positive/negative themes of the same concept i.e life/undeath, and heat/cold.
    Mind/shadow could be dreams/nightmares, inspiration/fear, etc.

    This sounds cheesy. But the principles behind the deadeye are similar to the dead Eye of Zhaitan. We hear of Mesmer transferring their mind to specialized phantasms, but we don't hear of them, or any other caster, enhancing their senses.

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

    Edit: Crystal is probably opposed to Steve's Water sphere (both Glint and Kraalkatorik found the Crystal Desert hospitable, deserts are lacking in water, crystals dissolve in water, etc.)

    Edit 2: I'm inclined to think that Steve's secondary sphere is something nasty and Lovecraftian, like Madness. And that would probably oppose Mind fairly well.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

    I’ve been trying to figure out Zhaitan’s shadow magic sphere for a while now. I too thought that perhaps his ability to gain knowledge from his minions was a trait of the shadow magic sphere.

    There also a couple instances that Zhaitan’s minions are invisible, in this case these were Risen wraith during What Eye Beholds. They are roaming the ship until Traheane reveals with his necromancy.

    I also notice Zhaitan has command of Orrian weapons, which seem to be animated. We only tend to find these in Orr, not sure if this is a trait of shadow magic or left over magic that the Orrians of Old used before the Cataclysm, which somehow got corrupted by Zhaitan.

    The last point with shadow magic is how the Risen spawn. Certain times in the game, Story mode Arah being an example. The Risen just suddenly appear with black smoke on the airships, just before the Dragon champion fight, during the fight and also during the fight with Zhaitan. I also notice that if you run around Orr and kill the Risen, when they respawn they appear in exactly the same with the black shadowy smoke. There could be some other examples that I’m missing as well.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

    Edit: Crystal is probably opposed to Steve's Water sphere (both Glint and Kraalkatorik found the Crystal Desert hospitable, deserts are lacking in water, crystals dissolve in water, etc.)

    Edit 2: I'm inclined to think that Steve's secondary sphere is something nasty and Lovecraftian, like Madness. And that would probably oppose Mind fairly well.

    We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

    I would agree Crystal goes with Water. Dry vs wet, shore v sea, solute vs solvent fits in nicely with hot vs cold and life vs undeath. And the representation during the Forgotten Trials was a spring of damaging saltwater.

    This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

    I’ve been trying to figure out Zhaitan’s shadow magic sphere for a while now. I too thought that perhaps his ability to gain knowledge from his minions was a trait of the shadow magic sphere.

    There also a couple instances that Zhaitan’s minions are invisible, in this case these were Risen wraith during What Eye Beholds. They are roaming the ship until Traheane reveals with his necromancy.

    I also notice Zhaitan has command of Orrian weapons, which seem to be animated. We only tend to find these in Orr, not sure if this is a trait of shadow magic or left over magic that the Orrians of Old used before the Cataclysm, which somehow got corrupted by Zhaitan.

    The last point with shadow magic is how the Risen spawn. Certain times in the game, Story mode Arah being an example. The Risen just suddenly appear with black smoke on the airships, just before the Dragon champion fight, during the fight and also during the fight with Zhaitan. I also notice that if you run around Orr and kill the Risen, when they respawn they appear in exactly the same with the black shadowy smoke. There could be some other examples that I’m missing as well.

    The Giganticus Lupucus shadow walks to you. It feels like if undeath is the opposite of life, there should be some undeath equivalent of mind magic. Especially now in POF where we are running into awakened with diverse sentience. And Joko was able to raise and lower Talkhora's at will.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

    I’ve been trying to figure out Zhaitan’s shadow magic sphere for a while now. I too thought that perhaps his ability to gain knowledge from his minions was a trait of the shadow magic sphere.

    There also a couple instances that Zhaitan’s minions are invisible, in this case these were Risen wraith during What Eye Beholds. They are roaming the ship until Traheane reveals with his necromancy.

    I also notice Zhaitan has command of Orrian weapons, which seem to be animated. We only tend to find these in Orr, not sure if this is a trait of shadow magic or left over magic that the Orrians of Old used before the Cataclysm, which somehow got corrupted by Zhaitan.

    The last point with shadow magic is how the Risen spawn. Certain times in the game, Story mode Arah being an example. The Risen just suddenly appear with black smoke on the airships, just before the Dragon champion fight, during the fight and also during the fight with Zhaitan. I also notice that if you run around Orr and kill the Risen, when they respawn they appear in exactly the same with the black shadowy smoke. There could be some other examples that I’m missing as well.

    The Giganticus Lupucus shadow walks to you. It feels like if undeath is the opposite of life, there should be some undeath equivalent of mind magic. Especially now in POF where we are running into awakened with diverse sentience. And Joko was able to raise and lower Talkhora's at will.

    Yeah there is a few Risen mobs that use shadow step, like the Risen nobles but it seems like they are more thief like characters because they also use thief abilities too, which is kinda odd for nobles, but who knows. Now that we learned that Kralkatorrik has absorbed some of Mordremoth’s mind Sphere, let’s hope one of the Dragon’s absorbs the Shadow sphere, so we have some clue what this sphere does.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

    Kralkatorrik itself has a lot of "thunderstorm that causes darkness" stuff to it, with not much in the way of light (just red and purple lightning). So I wouldn't be so sure there.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Not really sure about that, tbh, at least no direct influence. Especially the lightning bit.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

    Every Elder Dragon is mentally tied to their minions. We see this in Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik just as well as with Zhaitan (in that order of revelation too), all long before some "Mind dragon" came about. The different Mordremoth has is that his domain of mind allows him to transfer his mind to other parts of his corruption and be capable of micromanaging telepathy with every minion as opposed to some generic "the minions hear their master's will while the dragon gets its minions' knowledge" stuff; Kralkatorrik seems to be using it to connect minions to each other mentally.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

    We actually do not know they balance each other out. Hell, we don't know if Mordremoth and Zhaitan do, technically, it's just that the writing team of Season 3's Episodes 3 and 6 decided to put hints about it but we never got confirmation and, in all honesty, those hints make us question everything else we learn about the dragons' weaknesses in that season.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

    I wouldn't relate the DSD to fear, since Zhaitan had a pretty heavy presence with fear. Hell, there's an entire story arc where Zhaitan is supposedly trying to utilize your fear to weaken the Commander (the Greatest Fear arc, named that by the playerbase for a very specific reason).

    It would kind of be like stepping on toes if the DSD's original second sphere was some sort of fear/darkness and Zhaitan's second sphere was Shadows that include darkness and fear.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

    Kralkatorrik itself has a lot of "thunderstorm that causes darkness" stuff to it, with not much in the way of light (just red and purple lightning). So I wouldn't be so sure there.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Not really sure about that, tbh, at least no direct influence. Especially the lightning bit.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

    Every Elder Dragon is mentally tied to their minions. We see this in Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik just as well as with Zhaitan (in that order of revelation too), all long before some "Mind dragon" came about. The different Mordremoth has is that his domain of mind allows him to transfer his mind to other parts of his corruption and be capable of micromanaging telepathy with every minion as opposed to some generic "the minions hear their master's will while the dragon gets its minions' knowledge" stuff; Kralkatorrik seems to be using it to connect minions to each other mentally.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

    We actually do not know they balance each other out. Hell, we don't know if Mordremoth and Zhaitan do, technically, it's just that the writing team of Season 3's Episodes 3 and 6 decided to put hints about it but we never got confirmation and, in all honesty, those hints make us question everything else we learn about the dragons' weaknesses in that season.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

    I wouldn't relate the DSD to fear, since Zhaitan had a pretty heavy presence with fear. Hell, there's an entire story arc where Zhaitan is supposedly trying to utilize your fear to weaken the Commander (the Greatest Fear arc, named that by the playerbase for a very specific reason).

    It would kind of be like stepping on toes if the DSD's original second sphere was some sort of fear/darkness and Zhaitan's second sphere was Shadows that include darkness and fear.

    So I spent some time going through every Risen mob and recording all of the shadow steps and shadow references as well as certain teleports. There are a few enemies that appear to be using Mesmer teleports or blinks, I didn’t Include them.

    Risen Nobles:

    So all the Risen Nobles of every difficulty variety shadow step and have thief abilities, what different is that when they shadow step and find their target they drop an aoe weakness. Not sure why the Nobles are all thief characters, hard to say. Also Risen worshippers follow the same profile as the Nobles, but different name.

    Risen Wraith:

    Most variety of these guys as well as named entities have a teleport mechanic. Not sure if this based off of Elementalist or not. The names entities seem to use elementalist abilities, while the regular variety use necro abilities.

    Risen Subjugator:

    Necros andctgey use an ability called shadow orb. Simple Ranged attack. A certain Acolyte of Melandru also uses shadow orb.

    Risen Contender:

    Use a mix of warrior abilities and shadow steps.

    Risen Attendant:

    These guys shadowstep and use symbols.

    Prince Nekandezzar:

    Uses thief abilities including Shadow strike.

    Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan:

    SEZ teleports as well, not sure if he is designated to a profession, maybe Mesmer. Uses unique skills.

    Giganticus Lupicus:

    Uses Lupine Blast which Shadow Walks to opponent.

    Just a note, Konig mentioned Fear as a possible application of shadow magic sphere, a lot of the Risen and I mean a lot use Fear in their attacks.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

    Kralkatorrik itself has a lot of "thunderstorm that causes darkness" stuff to it, with not much in the way of light (just red and purple lightning). So I wouldn't be so sure there.

    He is referring to the aspect of Sun.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

    In prophecies, the Dark arts were not Dark magic combined with athletic ability. They were Blood magic, Death magic, and various techniques. With Deadeye we learned Shadow Magic was the name of a magical component of Shadow Arts. But it is not necessarily the only aspect.

    We know of two types of Nightmares. Twisted nature spirits like Vaettirs and entities of the Mist like the Shadow army or Aatxe. Neither are souls per se.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Not really sure about that, tbh, at least no direct influence. Especially the lightning bit.

    Ice is crystalline water. Fire is just gas and plasma. Lightning is plasma generated by the friction of ice in clouds. In addition, plants are made of water and crystals. Destroyer aren't even made of fire. The spheres are probably as literal as Air Magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Somehow Zhaitan could gain all your knowledge and secrets through your corpse even though he isn't the Mind dragon.

    Every Elder Dragon is mentally tied to their minions. We see this in Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik just as well as with Zhaitan (in that order of revelation too), all long before some "Mind dragon" came about. The different Mordremoth has is that his domain of mind allows him to transfer his mind to other parts of his corruption and be capable of micromanaging telepathy with every minion as opposed to some generic "the minions hear their master's will while the dragon gets its minions' knowledge" stuff; Kralkatorrik seems to be using it to connect minions to each other mentally.

    • Zhaitan retrieved knowledge/secrets from corpses, and bestowed abilities it did not possess. (Just like Joko/necros).
    • Kralkatorrik's descendants can hear/transmit/store thoughts from/for all races. I assume something like crystal radios that can be tuned to neuroelectricity, a magical fMRI.
    • Jormag can influence/bind will/emotion through the spirit.

    These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We know Kralktorrik and Bubbles balance each other out. Air probably goes with one of the latter's spheres.

    We actually do not know they balance each other out. Hell, we don't know if Mordremoth and Zhaitan do, technically, it's just that the writing team of Season 3's Episodes 3 and 6 decided to put hints about it but we never got confirmation and, in all honesty, those hints make us question everything else we learn about the dragons' weaknesses in that season.

    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    This would place Air with Bubbles second sphere. Which I also believe would be something Lovecraftian. Sun/air/lightning cannot penetrate the pitch black abyss of the deep sea. And someone needs to alter gravity, solidify darkness, and summon nightmares/shades. Zhaitan only feared, gave eyesight/stealth/shadowstepping to the undead and read the mind of corpses. There was only undeath, never physical horror.

    I wouldn't relate the DSD to fear, since Zhaitan had a pretty heavy presence with fear. Hell, there's an entire story arc where Zhaitan is supposedly trying to utilize your fear to weaken the Commander (the Greatest Fear arc, named that by the playerbase for a very specific reason).

    It would kind of be like stepping on toes if the DSD's original second sphere was some sort of fear/darkness and Zhaitan's second sphere was Shadows that include darkness and fear.

    I looked into their Lovecraftian suggestion. And the minions of the DsD were described by Quaggan/Largos/Inquest as monstrous/horrific. Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

    • The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
    • Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.
  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

    In prophecies, the Dark arts were not Dark magic combined with athletic ability. They were Blood magic, Death magic, and various techniques. With Deadeye we learned Shadow Magic was the name of a magical component of Shadow Arts. But it is not necessarily the only aspect.

    We know of two types of Nightmares. Twisted nature spirits like Vaettirs and entities of the Mist like the Shadow army or Aatxe. Neither are souls per se.

    Not to put words in Konig’s mouth, but I believe he was referring to this from Gw1.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_damage

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

    Kralkatorrik itself has a lot of "thunderstorm that causes darkness" stuff to it, with not much in the way of light (just red and purple lightning). So I wouldn't be so sure there.

    He is referring to the aspect of Sun.

    I know what he was referring to. I'm not an idiot.

    But even the Aspects of Wind and Lightning are pretty bright, compared to the thunderstorms and sandstorms of the branded and Dragonbrand. And the closest thing to the Aspect of Sun we see Kralkatorrik using is the golden gale of fiery breath used to in the creation of the Dragonbrand during Edge of Destiny.

    There's not much "brightness" in Kralkatorrik's use of the theorized Sky/Air sphere. Aspect of Sun or no.

    This is very similar to how sylvari are very vibrant and bright colors, while Mordrem are very dull and dark colors.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

    In prophecies, the Dark arts were not Dark magic combined with athletic ability. They were Blood magic, Death magic, and various techniques. With Deadeye we learned Shadow Magic was the name of a magical component of Shadow Arts. But it is not necessarily the only aspect.

    We know of two types of Nightmares. Twisted nature spirits like Vaettirs and entities of the Mist like the Shadow army or Aatxe. Neither are souls per se.

    I never proclaimed anything about "dark arts" (which itself is a very ambiguous thing) - I said Shadow Arts. With the reference of Prophecies, I'm referring to, on top of what @Tyson.5160 said, dark damage. In GW1, magical damage types were visible with the scepters and staves as uniquely different orbs launched out, and each type of damage had different strengths and weaknesses. These orbs were, naturally, magic, and had a very clear difference. They were all linked to: Holy (Light), Chaos, Fire, Cold (Ice), Lightning (Air), Dark and Shadow. For some reason, Dark and Shadow were different (mechanically, one ignored armor the other didn't), despite the orb attack being the same animation; there were more shadow damage attacks than dark (only one skill produced dark damage) while more weapons used dark rather than shadow damage.

    Shadow Arts is a completely different thing from "dark arts" which is, more often than not, used to reference evil/forbidden magic, and not a specific type of magic like air magic or chaos magic. Shadow Arts is a discipline of assassins which combined shadow magic with athletic abilities. Much like we see with theives, hence their own trait line of the same name which deals with stealth and shadowstepping.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Not really sure about that, tbh, at least no direct influence. Especially the lightning bit.

    Ice is crystalline water. Fire is just gas and plasma. Lightning is plasma generated by the friction of ice in clouds. In addition, plants are made of water and crystals. Destroyer aren't even made of fire. The spheres are probably as literal as Air Magic.

    I wouldn't call that "stretched" so much as "not scientific approach of molecules and atoms", really.

    Which is downright common across all fantasy settings.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • Zhaitan retrieved knowledge/secrets from corpses, and bestowed abilities it did not possess. (Just like Joko/necros).
    • Kralkatorrik's descendants can hear/transmit/store thoughts from/for all races. I assume something like crystal radios that can be tuned to neuroelectricity, a magical fMRI.
    • Jormag can influence/bind will/emotion through the spirit.

    Joko and necromancers do not gain the knowledge from corpses. They have to vocally tell such to the necromancer in question, if the undead is even capable of such. With risen, they didn't.

    Glint is specifically stated to be unique in her telepathy. Aurene has this, but there's zero evidence Vlast did.

    There is zero evidence Jormag can do such.

    And you completely ignore Primordus, who is established to have a hive mind back in Eye of the North.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.

    That's not really true. We know for a fact, as provided by ArenaNet developers, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

    Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree is not her own doing, but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses.> @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I looked into their Lovecraftian suggestion. And the minions of the DsD were described by Quaggan/Largos/Inquest as monstrous/horrific.

    To be fair, +EVERY+ dragon minion is described as monstrous, twisted, terrible and horrific.

    "Gunnar's Hold fell to monsters of ice, and the Norn were driven southward into the empty territory that had once been held by the Dwarves."

    "Only a few years ago, yet another dragon erupted from the northern mountains and flew south over the Charr territory of Ascalon. The land directly below the path of the dragon's flight was corrupted, becoming a crater of horror. The ground blackened from the dragon's presence and any creatures caught within the wind of its breath twisted and changed."

    "Risen from the ocean by the will of a powerful undead dragon, Orr no longer stands under human control. The beings roaming those lands are twisted, perverted remnants of Orr's once-magnificent culture."

    "Though Arah lies in ruins, conquered by the dragon and its minions, those who venture onto Orrian soil say they have seen her spired towers, bedecked with rotted banners and guarded by twisted, draconian troops."

    "This story began with a human soldier named Ronan whom, while separated from his patrol, discovered a cavern filled with strange seed-pods. This cavern was protected by terrible plant creatures, so he fled, clinging to a single seed to show his daughter when he returned home from war."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Movement_of_the_World

    That's just one source, but there's many of them. Most references to dragon minions use some form of those words.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

    Because dark energy is the type of magic.

    Multiple practices can use a singular type of magic (aka type of energy), as we see all over. But it's uncommon if not downright never seen for two types of magic to house the same effects.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
    • Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.

    The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion. The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic".

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @derd.6413 said:
    shadow (in terms of magic in gw2) would be stealth and shadowsteppig. you can't make mind and shadow opposites without sounding pretentious and stretching their definitions. the secondary sphere's are probably one of those things anet didn't really think about but 'sounded cool so let's put it in anyway'

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Nightmare Shadow creatures have been in Gw2 since launch. As had Zhaitan's specialized minions for eyesight and stealth.
    Shadow magic has only been referenced since Deadeye. What Shadow Arts and Dark Arts contain is anyone's guess but it's not relevant to this discussion. The dragon spheres aren't based on the division of human schools.

    Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

    In prophecies, the Dark arts were not Dark magic combined with athletic ability. They were Blood magic, Death magic, and various techniques. With Deadeye we learned Shadow Magic was the name of a magical component of Shadow Arts. But it is not necessarily the only aspect.

    We know of two types of Nightmares. Twisted nature spirits like Vaettirs and entities of the Mist like the Shadow army or Aatxe. Neither are souls per se.

    Not to put words in Konig’s mouth, but I believe he was referring to this from Gw1.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shadow_damage

    And I was responding to a person that referenced shadow in terms of Gw2.

    The Shadow damage type mechanic and it separation from the Dark damage type mechanic does not exist anymore.

    Assassins practiced magic but it was not called Shadow magic. That term first existed with Deadeye. And is probably the reason the Dark arts were never called Dark magic.

    At this point Thieves should be grouped with Necromancers and not Mesmers.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @perilisk.1874 said:
    Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based.

    Kralkatorrik itself has a lot of "thunderstorm that causes darkness" stuff to it, with not much in the way of light (just red and purple lightning). So I wouldn't be so sure there.

    He is referring to the aspect of Sun.

    There's not much "brightness" in Kralkatorrik's use of the theorized Sky/Air sphere. Aspect of Sun or no.

    This is very similar to how sylvari are very vibrant and bright colors, while Mordrem are very dull and dark colors.

    Undeath is still death and Mordrem is still life. Twisted light would still be counteracted by twisted darkness.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Shadow magic has been around since Prophecies, actually, and holds no (known) relation to Nightmares. Nightmares are basically souls twisted into monstrous and animalistic forms best we can tell. Shadow magic (and the shadow damage type mechanic) has been tied to both necromancers and assassins since day one. Shadow Arts is Shadow Magic, but assassins combine magic and athletic ability hence "arts".

    In prophecies, the Dark arts were not Dark magic combined with athletic ability. They were Blood magic, Death magic, and various techniques. With Deadeye we learned Shadow Magic was the name of a magical component of Shadow Arts. But it is not necessarily the only aspect.

    We know of two types of Nightmares. Twisted nature spirits like Vaettirs and entities of the Mist like the Shadow army or Aatxe. Neither are souls per se.

    I never proclaimed anything about "dark arts" (which itself is a very ambiguous thing) - I said Shadow Arts. With the reference of Prophecies... [snip]
    Shadow Arts is a completely different thing from "dark arts" which is, more often than not, used to reference evil/forbidden magic, and not a specific type of magic like air magic or chaos magic.

    I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2.

    The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently.

    Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic.

    Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Also, all spheres are stretched. If we took ice and fire literally they would have influence over crystals, water, and lightning.

    Not really sure about that, tbh, at least no direct influence. Especially the lightning bit.

    Ice is crystalline water. Fire is just gas and plasma. Lightning is plasma generated by the friction of ice in clouds. In addition, plants are made of water and crystals. Destroyer aren't even made of fire. The spheres are probably as literal as Air Magic.

    I wouldn't call that "stretched" so much as "not scientific approach of molecules and atoms", really.

    Which is downright common across all fantasy settings.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • Zhaitan retrieved knowledge/secrets from corpses, and bestowed abilities it did not possess. (Just like Joko/necros).
    • Kralkatorrik's descendants can hear/transmit/store thoughts from/for all races. I assume something like crystal radios that can be tuned to neuroelectricity, a magical fMRI.
    • Jormag can influence/bind will/emotion through the spirit.

    Joko and necromancers do not gain the knowledge from corpses. They have to vocally tell such to the necromancer in question, if the undead is even capable of such. With risen, they didn't.

    No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge.

    Glint is specifically stated to be unique in her telepathy. Aurene has this, but there's zero evidence Vlast did.

    Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it.

    There is zero evidence Jormag can do such.

    Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will.

    And you completely ignore Primordus, who is established to have a hive mind back in Eye of the North.

    Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.

    That's not really true. We know for a fact, as provided by ArenaNet developers, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

    Transcending the body is not mutually exclusive with controlling an aetherial consciousness.

    And Mordemoth's massive amounts "telepathy" is nothing like Glint & co. He connected a bunch of kitten and used it to send impulses.

    Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree is not her own doing, but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

    The Pale Tree can attach her children to a mindscape, and see/influence the flow of information. She doesn't read minds.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I looked into their Lovecraftian suggestion. And the minions of the DsD were described by Quaggan/Largos/Inquest as monstrous/horrific.

    To be fair, +EVERY+ dragon minion is described as monstrous, twisted, terrible and horrific. [snip]

    Fair.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

    Because dark energy is the type of magic

    Multiple practices can use a singular type of magic (aka type of energy), as we see all over. But it's uncommon if not downright never seen for two types of magic to house the same effects.

    Boons and conditions would imply otherwise. And if elemental energy can be divided into five and then divided again into aspects why not other stuff.

    Spectral for steath and teleportation. Space for gravity.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
    • Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.

    The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion.
    The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic"

    It definitely is magical terror when cast by Soulbeast. And black holes aren't shadows.
    There is an unrepresented natural darkness that is separate from Zhaitan. And wasn't inflicted on the living by Mordremoth.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses. The same way that Kralkatorrik is using Death Magic to create branded from corpses. We are not sure how Jormag made the Death/Plant magic Icebrood though. Likely Jormag can make Icebrood from the dead as well. The only dragon just seems to infuse his minions with the Death and Plant magic itself is Primordus, probably because he can create minions at a whim, though in theory he too should be able to raise the dead.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses...

    After Mordremoth absorbed Death he began cloning the dead. He did not mix energies. He did not raise corpses. He did not restore
    or transfer the original skills of his minions. Even clones could not access their counterparts abilities that fell outside his domain. And when they died he grew new ones.

    Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses...

    After Mordremoth absorbed Death he began cloning the dead. He did not mix energies. He did not raise corpses. He did not restore
    or transfer the original skills of his minions. Even clones could not access their counterparts abilities that fell outside his domain. And when they died he grew new ones.

    Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere.

    Yes, but he still used a corpse as fuel to make a minion. It wasn’t an undead minion, but he physically took a corpse, placed it in a Blighting pod and created a minion from it. Now what I think your saying is that Mordrem didn’t use Death Magic itself, which is true, but in terms of taking counterparts abilities, that I would have to disagree as the clones pretty use the exact same abilities that the original used. Take the Saurians or the Itzel Mordrem for example.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Undeath is still death and Mordrem is still life. Twisted light would still be counteracted by twisted darkness.

    Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2.

    The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently.

    Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic.

    Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc.

    The previous game remains canon. So yes it is still canon.

    Not saying the Deadeye hasn't honed shadow magic, I'm saying it's not the first to use it which you are.

    Dark Arts is not a singular concept in Tyria. It is used equally to refer to necromancy as well as evil/forbidden magic (Anet really cannot be consistent enough here). For example

    There were two primary dwarven factions. Deldrimor relics heal or empower users. The Stone Summit's relics tended towards the dark arts and demonic pacts.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Innkeeper_Klement

    Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nulfastu_Earthbound

    Given the description you use, you're likely thinking of the thief/assassin trait/attribute: Deadly Arts.

    And no, Shadow Arts is more than focusing on infusing weapons with magic. There's some pretty obvious magic in Shadow Arts. In GW1, there were very few equipment-based skills in Shadow Arts. And in GW2, it's more about stealth than shadowstepping. Shadow Arts has always been "the magical attribute" for assassins, or "the magical traitline" for thieves. It is Deadly Arts that is more of a mixture of weapons infused with magic than direct casting.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge.

    Undead cannot mentally transfer their knowledge to their creator. This is a fact, proven by the fact that players don't learn everything they turn into a minions.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it.

    Crystallizing memory is not the same as reading thoughts or granting visions (the latter Glint never did, btw, and supposedly Aurene could only do due to making us her champion, how she did it to the rest of Dragon's Watch is unclear).

    And if two beings out of thousands are the only ones to have a specific talent, then yes, it remains unique.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will.

    Which relates to the soul... how?

    The Mists is not something restricted to the soul. For Havrouns, especially, since they can physically enter the Mists through the Spirits of the Wild powers, and the portal opened by injuring the Wolf Havroun allowed the Svanir to do exactly that.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity.

    And a natural "creature to entity" (or more accurately, "minion to dragon") mental bond is exactly what you denied to exist among Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik by presenting some obscure reference to how their own domains allow the transfer to knowledge and thoughts.

    Kralkatorrik's newfound domain of Mind has zero influence on the fact that he already had this "minion to dragon" mental bond, and that Jormag, Zhaitan, and Primordus also have this.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.

    That's not really true. We know for a fact, as provided by ArenaNet developers, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

    Transcending the body is not mutually exclusive with controlling an aetherial consciousness.

    And Mordemoth's massive amounts "telepathy" is nothing like Glint & co. He connected a bunch of kitten and used it to send impulses.

    Take a moment and realize that you did not even respond to anything I've said.

    Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree is not her own doing, but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

    The Pale Tree can attach her children to a mindscape, and see/influence the flow of information. She doesn't read minds.

    Never said she read minds. I merely stated that the Dream of Dreams is not part of Mordremoth's domain of Mind magic. Which you didn't deny. Once more, for the third time now, you've not even responded to what I was saying.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Which is... exactly... my point...

    Wow, you're bad at this.

    You've been proclaiming that the spheres balance each other out, because Jormag's and Primordus' do. But Jormag's and Primordus' are weaknesses, while Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's are not. There's nothing to suggest that Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's spheres must balance each other out, except for contradictory lines and mechanics that suggest this balancing is further weaknesses atop of their apparent weakness.

    This means that either:
    a) "balancing spheres" are also "a secondary weakness" and that Jormag's and Primordus' primary, unique, weakness which is presented by the Novans has yet to be found; this would contradict the fact Mordremoth was even capable of eating Zhaitan's death sphere and that sylvari necromancers exist or
    b) the spheres don't actually balance each other out in pairs, and that Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's apparent "life and death" (or more accuturately, plant and undeath) are mere coincidence; this would contradict the fact that the Unstable Abomination was harmed by exposure to plant and undeath magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

    Because dark energy is the type of magic

    Multiple practices can use a singular type of magic (aka type of energy), as we see all over. But it's uncommon if not downright never seen for two types of magic to house the same effects.

    Boons and conditions would imply otherwise. And if elemental energy can be divided into five and then divided again into aspects why not other stuff.

    Spectral for steath and teleportation. Space for gravity.

    Per boons and conditions: that's pure mechanics that has gotten simplified in order to avoid the massive amounts of hexes and enchantments presented by GW1. Not every spell that provides burning likely actually sets someone on natural fire. Besides which, there's multiple ways to make someone bleed or to poison someone, but that doesn't mean the form of bloodletting or poisoning is going to be the same.

    As for elemental energy, that's just a categorization of multiple magical types. It's the same as grouping light, dark/shadow, and chaos magic into a singular "metaphysical magic".

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
    • Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.

    The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion.
    The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic"

    It definitely is magical terror when cast by Soulbeast. And black holes aren't shadows.
    There is an unrepresented natural darkness that is separate from Zhaitan. And wasn't inflicted on the living by Mordremoth.

    Again see above's "per boons and conditions", but the ocean's abyssal darkness is not magical at all.

    And the one who brought up gravity as some sort of "darkness" magic was you, so why are you now disagreeing with yourself?

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses...

    After Mordremoth absorbed Death he began cloning the dead. He did not mix energies. He did not raise corpses. He did not restore
    or transfer the original skills of his minions. Even clones could not access their counterparts abilities that fell outside his domain. And when they died he grew new ones.

    Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere.

    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.
    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Undeath is still death and Mordrem is still life. Twisted light would still be counteracted by twisted darkness.

    Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2.

    The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently.

    Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic.

    Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc.

    The previous game remains canon. So yes it is still canon.

    Not saying the Deadeye hasn't honed shadow magic, I'm saying it's not the first to use it which you are.

    Dark Arts is not a singular concept in Tyria. It is used equally to refer to necromancy as well as evil/forbidden magic (Anet really cannot be consistent enough here). For example

    There were two primary dwarven factions. Deldrimor relics heal or empower users. The Stone Summit's relics tended towards the dark arts and demonic pacts.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Innkeeper_Klement

    Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nulfastu_Earthbound

    Given the description you use, you're likely thinking of the thief/assassin trait/attribute: Deadly Arts.

    And no, Shadow Arts is more than focusing on infusing weapons with magic. There's some pretty obvious magic in Shadow Arts. In GW1, there were very few equipment-based skills in Shadow Arts. And in GW2, it's more about stealth than shadowstepping. Shadow Arts has always been "the magical attribute" for assassins, or "the magical traitline" for thieves. It is Deadly Arts that is more of a mixture of weapons infused with magic than direct casting.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge.

    Undead cannot mentally transfer their knowledge to their creator. This is a fact, proven by the fact that players don't learn everything they turn into a minions.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it.

    Crystallizing memory is not the same as reading thoughts or granting visions (the latter Glint never did, btw, and supposedly Aurene could only do due to making us her champion, how she did it to the rest of Dragon's Watch is unclear).

    And if two beings out of thousands are the only ones to have a specific talent, then yes, it remains unique.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will.

    Which relates to the soul... how?

    The Mists is not something restricted to the soul. For Havrouns, especially, since they can physically enter the Mists through the Spirits of the Wild powers, and the portal opened by injuring the Wolf Havroun allowed the Svanir to do exactly that.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity.

    And a natural "creature to entity" (or more accurately, "minion to dragon") mental bond is exactly what you denied to exist among Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik by presenting some obscure reference to how their own domains allow the transfer to knowledge and thoughts.

    Kralkatorrik's newfound domain of Mind has zero influence on the fact that he already had this "minion to dragon" mental bond, and that Jormag, Zhaitan, and Primordus also have this.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.

    That's not really true. We know for a fact, as provided by ArenaNet developers, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

    Transcending the body is not mutually exclusive with controlling an aetherial consciousness.

    And Mordemoth's massive amounts "telepathy" is nothing like Glint & co. He connected a bunch of kitten and used it to send impulses.

    Take a moment and realize that you did not even respond to anything I've said.

    Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree is not her own doing, but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

    The Pale Tree can attach her children to a mindscape, and see/influence the flow of information. She doesn't read minds.

    Never said she read minds. I merely stated that the Dream of Dreams is not part of Mordremoth's domain of Mind magic. Which you didn't deny. Once more, for the third time now, you've not even responded to what I was saying.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Which is... exactly... my point...

    Wow, you're bad at this.

    You've been proclaiming that the spheres balance each other out, because Jormag's and Primordus' do. But Jormag's and Primordus' are weaknesses, while Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's are not. There's nothing to suggest that Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's spheres must balance each other out, except for contradictory lines and mechanics that suggest this balancing is further weaknesses atop of their apparent weakness.

    This means that either:
    a) "balancing spheres" are also "a secondary weakness" and that Jormag's and Primordus' primary, unique, weakness which is presented by the Novans has yet to be found; this would contradict the fact Mordremoth was even capable of eating Zhaitan's death sphere and that sylvari necromancers exist or
    b) the spheres don't actually balance each other out in pairs, and that Mordremoth's and Zhaitan's apparent "life and death" (or more accuturately, plant and undeath) are mere coincidence; this would contradict the fact that the Unstable Abomination was harmed by exposure to plant and undeath magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

    Because dark energy is the type of magic

    Multiple practices can use a singular type of magic (aka type of energy), as we see all over. But it's uncommon if not downright never seen for two types of magic to house the same effects.

    Boons and conditions would imply otherwise. And if elemental energy can be divided into five and then divided again into aspects why not other stuff.

    Spectral for steath and teleportation. Space for gravity.

    Per boons and conditions: that's pure mechanics that has gotten simplified in order to avoid the massive amounts of hexes and enchantments presented by GW1. Not every spell that provides burning likely actually sets someone on natural fire. Besides which, there's multiple ways to make someone bleed or to poison someone, but that doesn't mean the form of bloodletting or poisoning is going to be the same.

    As for elemental energy, that's just a categorization of multiple magical types. It's the same as grouping light, dark/shadow, and chaos magic into a singular "metaphysical magic".

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
    • Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.

    The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion.
    The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic"

    It definitely is magical terror when cast by Soulbeast. And black holes aren't shadows.
    There is an unrepresented natural darkness that is separate from Zhaitan. And wasn't inflicted on the living by Mordremoth.

    Again see above's "per boons and conditions", but the ocean's abyssal darkness is not magical at all.

    And the one who brought up gravity as some sort of "darkness" magic was you, so why are you now disagreeing with yourself?

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses...

    After Mordremoth absorbed Death he began cloning the dead. He did not mix energies. He did not raise corpses. He did not restore
    or transfer the original skills of his minions. Even clones could not access their counterparts abilities that fell outside his domain. And when they died he grew new ones.

    Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere.

    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.
    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

    You could also make the argument with the Shadow of the Dragon using the Shadow Magic Sphere with what we have learned about the dragon’s and proximity when gaining certain abilities. This is potentially another sphere of Zhaitan’s that Mordremoth used without exploding as well. Especially if Mordremoth only gained a fixed amount of shadow magic and decided to imbued into one of his powerful Lieutenants.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

    Minor note: This is not True, Mordrem Trolls are like Destroyer Trolls, they are still purely creations, not corruptions.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    You could also make the argument with the Shadow of the Dragon using the Shadow Magic Sphere with what we have learned about the dragon’s and proximity when gaining certain abilities. This is potentially another sphere of Zhaitan’s that Mordremoth used without exploding as well. Especially if Mordremoth only gained a fixed amount of shadow magic and decided to imbued into one of his powerful Lieutenants.

    Possible, though less Shadow of the Dragon itself and more the mordrem that spawns near it during the second encounter: Shadow Tendrils, Smothering Shadows, and Malformed Shadows. Though the later two (if not the first) could be argued to be magic summoned by the Shadow of the Dragon rather than independent mordrem.

    All three basically look like mordrem minions with death shroud, not dissimilar to Death-Touched Destroyers (the wiki's image of that guy is with low post-processing so it doesn't show the shadow effect seen on them) and the Death-Branded Test Subject.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

    Minor note: This is not True, Mordrem Trolls are like Destroyer Trolls, they are still purely creations, not corruptions.

    Actually, that would be untrue. Both the model and confirmation by Scott McGough makes it clear that Mordrem Trolls (and Wolves) as seen in Silverwastes are corrupted animals. To quote:

    Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

  • Eekasqueak.7850Eekasqueak.7850 Member ✭✭✭

    Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    You could also make the argument with the Shadow of the Dragon using the Shadow Magic Sphere with what we have learned about the dragon’s and proximity when gaining certain abilities. This is potentially another sphere of Zhaitan’s that Mordremoth used without exploding as well. Especially if Mordremoth only gained a fixed amount of shadow magic and decided to imbued into one of his powerful Lieutenants.

    Possible, though less Shadow of the Dragon itself and more the mordrem that spawns near it during the second encounter: Shadow Tendrils, Smothering Shadows, and Malformed Shadows. Though the later two (if not the first) could be argued to be magic summoned by the Shadow of the Dragon rather than independent mordrem.

    All three basically look like mordrem minions with death shroud, not dissimilar to Death-Touched Destroyers (the wiki's image of that guy is with low post-processing so it doesn't show the shadow effect seen on them) and the Death-Branded Test Subject.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

    Minor note: This is not True, Mordrem Trolls are like Destroyer Trolls, they are still purely creations, not corruptions.

    Actually, that would be untrue. Both the model and confirmation by Scott McGough makes it clear that Mordrem Trolls (and Wolves) as seen in Silverwastes are corrupted animals. To quote:

    Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

    I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

    Minor note: This is not True, Mordrem Trolls are like Destroyer Trolls, they are still purely creations, not corruptions.

    Actually, that would be untrue. Both the model and confirmation by Scott McGough makes it clear that Mordrem Trolls (and Wolves) as seen in Silverwastes are corrupted animals. To quote:

    Mordremoth’s corruption is analogous to weeds and moss invading a garden and totally taking it over. The invader (for the purposes of this analogy, the weeds and moss) claims the nutrients and resources that would otherwise go to the existing plants, surrounds and envelops the native plants and digests them/converts them into more raw material it can use to grow, and then spreads outward, colonizing as it goes. The invader continues to get stronger and expand while the native plants are choked out/starved/digested and wither away. This sort of overwhelming growth/colonization can also be seen in the bodies of its minions like the Mordrem Wolf or Mordrem Troll (who were originally something else before they became Mordremoth minions—I’d call out an analogy to Alan Moore’s excellent classic Swamp Thing story, “The Anatomy Lesson,” where the creature’s original body is slowly replaced by plant material until you have essentially a plant version of the original that has the same general form but not necessarily the same function); there are also things like the Mordrem Vine Crawlers and Tendril Roots, which Mordy basically crafted from scratch using the plant material at hand.

    I stand corrected.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 3, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life.

    I don't think so. For starters, that wouldn't be cloning, not really, and more importantly, we see some cases where there are more clones than there are originals. Both for living and dead. Diarmid is a good example, though not exactly clone in appearance (unless she was one ugly b****), she is killed numerous times, probably a dozen times in total at least. Logan and Zojja also have multiple clones. This seems to me to be the core of what made Mordremoth such a huge threat - that he could take one powerful individual and create dozens of lookalike mordrem using their capabilities. That, and his ability to spread so much further faster and claim more territory in singular swaths of activity.

    At the end of that bit, Scott also states that some mordrem are created "from scratch" using plant materials. Though he specifies the vine minions in the latter, I imagine this goes to vinetooths, the flower-like Vinewraths and Thrashers, and the clone mordrems as well.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything.

    Balthazar was no longer a god. He had no god magic, as confirmed by Kormir. He was a former god.

    The magic that Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Meaning it would be a mixture of Primordus', Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and one of the four schools of magic (likely Preservation).

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life.

    I don't think so. For starters, that wouldn't be cloning, not really, and more importantly, we see some cases where there are more clones than there are originals. Both for living and dead. Diarmid is a good example, though not exactly clone in appearance (unless she was one ugly b****), she is killed numerous times, probably a dozen times in total at least. Logan and Zojja also have multiple clones. This seems to me to be the core of what made Mordremoth such a huge threat - that he could take one powerful individual and create dozens of lookalike mordrem using their capabilities. That, and his ability to spread so much further faster and claim more territory in singular swaths of activity.

    At the end of that bit, Scott also states that some mordrem are created "from scratch" using plant materials. Though he specifies the vine minions in the latter, I imagine this goes to vinetooths, the flower-like Vinewraths and Thrashers, and the clone mordrems as well.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything.

    Balthazar was no longer a god. He had no god magic, as confirmed by Kormir. He was a former god.

    The magic that Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Meaning it would be a mixture of Primordus', Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and one of the four schools of magic (likely Preservation).

    I guess he was talking more about the analogy about swamp thing then about the actual Mordrem.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I forgot about this quote, I imagine he is talking about the Mordrem that is created from corpses. I guess the plant eats the dead flesh and replace it with plant life.

    I don't think so. For starters, that wouldn't be cloning, not really, and more importantly, we see some cases where there are more clones than there are originals. Both for living and dead. Diarmid is a good example, though not exactly clone in appearance (unless she was one ugly b****), she is killed numerous times, probably a dozen times in total at least. Logan and Zojja also have multiple clones. This seems to me to be the core of what made Mordremoth such a huge threat - that he could take one powerful individual and create dozens of lookalike mordrem using their capabilities. That, and his ability to spread so much further faster and claim more territory in singular swaths of activity.

    At the end of that bit, Scott also states that some mordrem are created "from scratch" using plant materials. Though he specifies the vine minions in the latter, I imagine this goes to vinetooths, the flower-like Vinewraths and Thrashers, and the clone mordrems as well.

    @Eekasqueak.7850 said:
    Aurene absorbed a bunch of god magic so it's hard to say what abilities she might develop. For all we know the magic she absorbed was like white light, the combination of all the 'spectrums' that make up the rest of the dragons and it granted her a little if everything.

    Balthazar was no longer a god. He had no god magic, as confirmed by Kormir. He was a former god.

    The magic that Aurene and Kralkatorrik absorbed came from the Maguuma Bloodstone, Primordus, and Jormag. Meaning it would be a mixture of Primordus', Jormag's, Zhaitan's, Mordremoth's, and one of the four schools of magic (likely Preservation).

    Vinetooths (Vineteeth?) were a custom job by Mordremoth if I’m remembering the Exalted dialogue exactly. Designed specifically to take out Exalted and claim their masks. I’ve wonder if Mordremoth resorts to cloning process as a faster way to produce minions. Perhaps we only see only so few Vineteeth because they take Mordremoth long to create, maybe just like the Pale Tree took a while to produce Sylvari.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan.

    It's sun, lightning and wind. Plasma, plasma, and gas moving under via the heat of plasma. The opposite would be a blackhole. If you splitting Druid between light and tides/black holes.

    Shadow is the name of the sphere, the space between light and darkness, and another word for spectre. Darkness is still available, perhaps not that word itself, but concept is

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I'm aware of the damage types from the previous game. They aren't canon anymore and the person I had responded to specifically asked in terms of Gw2.

    The Deadeye honed Shadow magic over the last decades. Just like the Zephyr. yrites honed Air magic. And the rangers honed Nature magic. It doesn't mean those principles didn't exist but they were organized differently.

    Shadow Magic is undoubtedly part of the Dark Arts. Life steal, darkness that blinds/binds/poisons, marking others for death, taking away sanity, etc is not good magic.

    Shadow arts is when you focus that on physicality/infusing weapons instead of casting. So you shadowstep instead of teleporting etc.

    The previous game remains canon. So yes it is still canon.

    Not saying the Deadeye hasn't honed shadow magic, I'm saying it's not the first to use it which you are.

    The previous damage types are not canon sources of what an object was. The graphics/substances have been updated with a new perspective.

    Even so, it was not called shadow magic back then. Shadow damage was only in Necromancer traitlines, and Shadow Arts used spells as mechanic term. Dark energy was and is still used but Deadeyes are the first to use the term "shadow magic". And what those non-scholars say is as impressive as if Guardians started saying light magic.

    Dark Arts is not a singular concept in Tyria. It is used equally to refer to necromancy as well as evil/forbidden magic (Anet really cannot be consistent enough here). For example

    There were two primary dwarven factions. Deldrimor relics heal or empower users. The Stone Summit's relics tended towards the dark arts and demonic pacts.
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Innkeeper_Klement

    Once a great, northen nature spirit, Nulfastu descended into the dark arts in an attempt to destroy his brethren and usurp their powers. When his intentions were revealed, the other spirits struck down Nulfastu, binding his incorporeal body to this realm and his spirit powers to the next.
    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Nulfastu_Earthbound

    Given the description you use, you're likely thinking of the thief/assassin trait/attribute: Deadly Arts.

    The description I gave is of the shadow arts/deadeye traitline and the mechanics they are associated with. This includes uses shadows to steal life, and poison people.

    I consider them practitioners of the metaphorical Dark Arts and the Aggression school. Shadow manipulation geared around assassination/theft doesn't fit elsewhere.

    And no, Shadow Arts is more than focusing on infusing weapons with magic. There's some pretty obvious magic in Shadow Arts. In GW1, there were very few equipment-based skills in Shadow Arts. And in GW2, it's more about stealth than shadowstepping. Shadow Arts has always been "the magical attribute" for assassins, or "the magical traitline" for thieves. It is Deadly Arts that is more of a mixture of weapons infused with magic than direct casting.

    I wasn't factoring in other traitlines. But is there a Deadly Magic? Wouldn't that just be shadow arts applied to weaponry like everything Ranger does is Nature magic?

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    No undead should be capable of it. The soul s we see in the Departed, it holds knowledge.

    Undead cannot mentally transfer their knowledge to their creator. This is a fact, proven by the fact that players don't learn everything they turn into a minions.

    Correct. But soul comprehension w/e contains some mind-esque element that allows you to remove the mind, selectively change one's control over their body, and return original skills. We didn't see this amongst the Mordrem.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Vlast could crystallize memory. And it's not unique of two or more entities have it.

    Crystallizing memory is not the same as reading thoughts or granting visions (the latter Glint never did, btw, and supposedly Aurene could only do due to making us her champion, how she did it to the rest of Dragon's Watch is unclear).

    They are all a form of thought transmission to another without a hive mind. The Mind Dragon only being able to send impulses through the Dream is more Vulcan mind melding than telepathy. And he was silent for the majority of races.

    And if two beings out of thousands are the only ones to have a specific talent, then yes, it remains unique.

    The Dragons were six beings out of thousands. It's rare that the 2.5 entities that showed a particular power would all be descendants of the one with electromagnetic powers while the Pale Tree can't directly speak to non-Sylvari without an Avatar.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Beyond the emotional effect he has, there is frozen Mists spike that bound a Havroun and allowed Svanir open portals at will.

    Which relates to the soul... how?

    The Mists is not something restricted to the soul. For Havrouns, especially, since they can physically enter the Mists through the Spirits of the Wild powers, and the portal opened by injuring the Wolf Havroun allowed the Svanir to do exactly that.

    They froze Mists, bound his spirit with it

    Styrr Frostblade: With Solvi's power at my command, I can open as many portals as I need!

    and began invoking him. Essentially a binding ritual. And that falls under preservation/spirit magic. As do many skills related to emotions or will.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Because the experiments on Kralkatorik's Mind enhanced minions indicate creature to creature not creatures to entity.

    And a natural "creature to entity" (or more accurately, "minion to dragon") mental bond is exactly what you denied to exist among Jormag, Zhaitan, and Kralkatorrik by presenting some obscure reference to how their own domains allow the transfer to knowledge and thoughts.

    You misunderstand my point. All dragons have mental abilities having to do with minion control. However, on top of that they have manipulations absent in Mordremoth. He cannot return/remove the mind, transmit thoughts unconnected, or control behavior.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    These would all be things one expects of the Mind domain. However, Mordremoth and the PT only learn things, transmit thoughts, and send influences through their connection. It would seem Mind is not telepathy but the aetherial consciousness that develops between body, soul and spirit.

    That's not really true. We know for a fact, as provided by ArenaNet developers, that Mordremoth's domain of mind gave him the ability to transcend his body to make more of his corruption his "body". This is the entire premise of the climax of Heart of Thorns and why we mind-dive into the Dream of Dreams. It's also pretty heavily stated that Mordremoth had performed massive amounts of telepathy with his minions and the sylvari, thus why they're left confused and disorganized, unlike the risen who went on as normal with Zhaitan's death.

    Transcending the body is not mutually exclusive with controlling an aetherial consciousness.

    And Mordemoth's massive amounts "telepathy" is nothing like Glint & co. He connected a bunch of kitten and used it to send impulses.

    Take a moment and realize that you did not even respond to anything I've said.

    I'll be clearer. No one doubts Mordremoth was capable of Astral projection and forming mental connections. Or that he could send thoughts via wyld hunts.

    The link you provided did not say anything about telepathy it mentions a consciousness. This is not mutually exclusive with anything I said.

    I believe as far as Nature Magic is concerned, he's a telepath. But he's more Poison Ivy than Professor Xavier. A Plant Mesmer/Ranger that spoke via sensations plants could interpret.

    The Sylvari heard it as a voice. I imagine the Sylvan hound received something more rudimentary from the empathic bond.

    It is not telepathy.

    It is the immaterial consciousness and bonds we make in life, physically represented by the non spectral Magenta our brain creates
    vs

    the tunnel of light our brain creates as we die and the places the soul goes.

    Furthermore, everything you attached to the Pale Tree is not her own doing, but the Dream of Dreams' doing, and it must be stressed that as proven by Malyck and the White Stag, the Dream of Dreams is not something unique to Mordremoth and his minions.

    The Pale Tree can attach her children to a mindscape, and see/influence the flow of information. She doesn't read minds.

    Never said she read minds. I merely stated that the Dream of Dreams is not part of Mordremoth's domain of Mind magic. Which you didn't deny. Once more, for the third time now, you've not even responded to what I was saying.

    Why would I deny that? It isn't.

    The magic is in connecting to it and sending impulses along it.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Which is... exactly... my point...

    Cool? Is it also that spheres cancel out as the corruptive substance/magic, not the extrusion during sleep and death?

    I believe the dragons that physically coat to the degree of Primordius and Jormag become vulnerable. But it is not automatically a weakness. I do not believe Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape. And I imagine there is some way to subvert it for the other set.

    It's also possible Novans were just wrong on uniqueness.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Dark energy can be used by two different types of magic. Why can't this be another basalt situation?

    Because dark energy is the type of magic

    Multiple practices can use a singular type of magic (aka type of energy), as we see all over. But it's uncommon if not downright never seen for two types of magic to house the same effects.

    Boons and conditions would imply otherwise. And if elemental energy can be divided into five and then divided again into aspects why not other stuff.

    Spectral for steath and teleportation. Space for gravity.

    Per boons and conditions: that's pure mechanics that has gotten simplified in order to avoid the massive amounts of hexes and enchantments presented by GW1. Not every spell that provides burning likely actually sets someone on natural fire. Besides which, there's multiple ways to make someone bleed or to poison someone, but that doesn't mean the form of bloodletting or poisoning is going to be the same.

    As for elemental energy, that's just a categorization of multiple magical types. It's the same as grouping light, dark/shadow, and chaos magic into a singular "metaphysical magic".

    Just like grouping dark and shadow.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • The darkness of the abyss is not artificially produced. Pet sharks don't use necromancy to fear enemies, I imagine multi-tentacled horrors have an easier time.
    • Also gravity has yet to be represented. And controlling pressure/floating is perfect for an entity from the ocean.

    The former isn't magic at all, so there'd be no need to name the sphere for it which was the entire discussion.
    The latter wouldn't need to be tied to horror/fear/darkness at all. Could be called, idk, "Space/Spacial Magic"

    It definitely is magical terror when cast by Soulbeast. And black holes aren't shadows.
    There is an unrepresented natural darkness that is separate from Zhaitan. And wasn't inflicted on the living by Mordremoth.

    Again see above's "per boons and conditions", but the ocean's abyssal darkness is not magical at all.

    And the one who brought up gravity as some sort of "darkness" magic was you, so why are you now disagreeing with yourself?

    Natural as in created via Nature magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Weaknesses are irrelevant, the Dragons balance out by spheres. The combination of the Dream and specialized minions didn't cleanse Orr. Nor does the white light analogy involve crystalline resonance.

    Weaknesses are pretty kitten important, given that the only confirmed "balance out by spheres" are stated weaknesses

    Not really. Jormag didn't explode by absorbing Plant or Life he just couldn't mix them. Similarly Mordremoth had no problem with absorbing Death, he just never physically used it like the other Dragons.

    Mordremoth used Death Magic, like Zhaitan used Death Magic. Making minions out of corpses...

    After Mordremoth absorbed Death he began cloning the dead. He did not mix energies. He did not raise corpses. He did not restore
    or transfer the original skills of his minions. Even clones could not access their counterparts abilities that fell outside his domain. And when they died he grew new ones.

    Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere.

    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

    Which is not unusual.

    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

    Which clones were also undead?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

    Which clones were also undead?

    They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned.

    The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

    Which clones were also undead?

    They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned

    It doesn't mean they used corpses. It's not like corruption was instant before Zhaitan. Svanir/Icebrood can become incredibly ice-like and disfigured while still being alive. The same is probably true of parasitic fungi. And even if the host dies, the corpse was a trellis/fertilizer.

    The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well.

    Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature. Like other dragons have done.

    Using death magic to understand corpses is separate from using plant magic to copy them. There is nothing imbued with the matter or energy of both. Nor do any clones exhibit orginal abilities.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    This has gotten too long so I'm going to be selective in my responses (sadly, still too long):

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan.

    It's sun, lightning and wind. Plasma, plasma, and gas moving under via the heat of plasma. The opposite would be a blackhole. If you splitting Druid between light and tides/black holes.

    Shadow is the name of the sphere, the space between light and darkness, and another word for spectre. Darkness is still available, perhaps not that word itself, but concept is

    Firstly, I'm pretty sure you're being far more scientific than necessary. This isn't the fine tuned molecules of nature, these are elemental concepts of magic. From that perspective, the opposite of sky is... earth.

    But you detracted from the very initial argument. Which was "since Glint and Zephyrite magic are all bright, then if the DSD is Kralk's opposite then it must be related to darkness." My point the whole time has been that this is a massive misnomer - Glint and Zephyrite magic are bright, but Kralkatorrik's is dark in comparison. In the same light, Pale Tree and sylvari magic is bright, while Mordremoth's is dark. It's a typical "good = bright; evil = dark" modifier and holds no sway over the actual spheres.

    Now, I could (and have) agreed with the notion that the DSD's second sphere may be related to gravity, though I would hardly call it "darkness" or "shadow" since that is literally Zhaitan's, but instead call it Spacial (since gravity wells and the like are all related to space) or even Celestial (this would mirror Kuunavang if the old "Kuunavang = DSD champ" rings true).

    Shadow, in the concept of GW2, is not "the space between light and darkness" but another name for darkness. Like with the plasma stuff, you're going too scientific and too specific..

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The previous damage types are not canon sources of what an object was. The graphics/substances have been updated with a new perspective.

    GW1 is still canon, both appearances and mechanics (where mechanics and lore intermingle).

    Just because things have changed in the 250 years does not negate what was.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Correct. But soul comprehension w/e contains some mind-esque element that allows you to remove the mind, selectively change one's control over their body, and return original skills. We didn't see this amongst the Mordrem.

    I would say we did, given that the mordrem hylek (best example) do utilize the exact same skills as their non-mordrem counterparts. The Mordrem Guard don't really seem to use non-mordrem capabilities, and this is indeed weird. But we also see some necromantic abilities throughout various mordrem, primary example being the leeching thrashers who have a heavy use of life steal.

    We also see a number of mordrem with stealth, so if Zhaitan's domain of shadow = shadow magic as we see among thieves, this would explain that atop of the Shadow Tendrils/Smothering Shadows fought alongside the Shadow of the Dragon.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The Dragons were six beings out of thousands. It's rare that the 2.5 entities that showed a particular power would all be descendants of the one with electromagnetic powers while the Pale Tree can't directly speak to non-Sylvari without an Avatar.

    There's no evidence that there were thousands like the Elder Dragons, but Glint and her children are not like the Elder Dragons but regular dragons like Kuunavang and Rotscale.

    The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    They froze Mists, bound his spirit with it

    That's literally never said. I just checked. The "froze Mists" part. They did bind his spirit with it, but that holds no relation to the before mention that Jormag communicates with his minions through command of souls.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The Sylvari heard it as a voice. I imagine the Sylvan hound received something more rudimentary from the empathic bond.

    It is not telepathy.

    Scarlet and Aerin literally had a conversation with the voice in their head. And IIRC, other sylvari/Mordrem Guard in HoT do too.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Cool? Is it also that spheres cancel out as the corruptive substance/magic, not the extrusion during sleep and death?

    I believe the dragons that physically coat to the degree of Primordius and Jormag become vulnerable. But it is not automatically a weakness. I do not believe Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape. And I imagine there is some way to subvert it for the other set.

    It's also possible Novans were just wrong on uniqueness.

    I have no clue what you were saying (and nothing indicates that Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape? That was Omadd's machine).

    As for the unique weakness, the Forgotten also say this during The Way Forward.

    Josso Essher: Each has a distinct flaw.
    Josso Essher: Mordremoth, for example, dominates thought. But its most powerful asset—its mind—is also its greatest liability.
    Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    Mordrem Trolls, and Sylvari are analogous to any other ED's usage of their primary sphere.

    1) Mordrem Wolves and Mordrem Trolls would be corrupted living beings and possibly corpses corrupted, especially the wolves.

    Which is not unusual.

    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

    Which clones were also undead?

    First part: But that would mean Mordremoth corrupt the dead. Ergo, "mixed his and Zhaitan's magic". Second part: It's not that the clones were undead, but that the clones were made from the dead. Something that was apparently impossible for him prior to absorbing Zhaitan's magic. That means he was utilizing Zhaitan's magic with his own, ergo mixing magic.

    Which based on the whole "counteracting spheres" would mean that Mordrem should have been exploding left and right.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

    Which clones were also undead?

    They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned

    It doesn't mean they used corpses. Svanir/Icebrood can become incredibly ice like and disfigured while still being alive. The same is probably true of parasitic fungi and even if the host dies, that's just fertilizer.

    The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well.

    Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature. Like other dragons have done.

    Using death magic to understand corpses is separate from using plant magic to copy them.

    Each dragon has it’s own way of generating minions, that method doesn’t change. Do you see Primordus creating minions from the dead since he has obtained the death spectrum? No, however he infuses his destroyers with that new magic, probably because he simply creates minions and doesn’t need a source like Jormag or Kralkatorrik do.

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    2) Cloning the dead was Mordremoth mixing energies.

    Which clones were also undead?

    They weren’t, however you could argue that the trolls and the wolves were corrupted corpses as Konig mentioned

    It doesn't mean they used corpses. Svanir/Icebrood can become incredibly ice like and disfigured while still being alive. The same is probably true of parasitic fungi and even if the host dies, that's just fertilizer.

    The point I was making was that Mordremoth physically used the death magic spectrum, by making minions from the dead, similiar to Zhaitan also making minions from the dead. Before this Mordremoth had to place living creatures in his Mordrem Pods which meant that he had to take prisoners to produce more minions. Getting the Death spectrum gave Mordremoth more options for minion creation because he could use dead corpses as well.

    Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature. Like other dragons have done.

    Using death magic to understand corpses is separate from using plant magic to copy them.

    Each dragon has it’s own way of generating minions, that method doesn’t change. Do you see Primordus creating minions from the dead since he has obtained the death spectrum? No, however he infuses his destroyers with that new magic, probably because he simply creates minions and doesn’t need a source like Jormag or Kralkatorrik do.

    "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature."

    There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc.

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

    You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it.

    Clones are physically separate from the "source".

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature."

    There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc.

    The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what Shadow Tendrils are. They're Dragon Tendrils (aka large Jungle Tendrils) with shadow (and death?) magic in them.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

    You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it.

    Clones are physically separate from the "source".

    Regardless of physical connection, it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere. The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    This has gotten too long so I'm going to be selective in my responses (sadly, still too long):

    Fair.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Except that the hypothetical domain of sky/air is not light. And even if it were, darkness = shadow = Zhaitan.

    It's sun, lightning and wind. Plasma, plasma, and gas moving under via the heat of plasma. The opposite would be a blackhole. If you splitting Druid between light and tides/black holes.

    Shadow is the name of the sphere, the space between light and darkness, and another word for spectre. Darkness is still available, perhaps not that word itself, but concept is

    Firstly, I'm pretty sure you're being far more scientific than necessary. This isn't the fine tuned molecules of nature, these are elemental concepts of magic. From that perspective, the opposite of sky is... earth.

    But you detracted from the very initial argument. Which was "since Glint and Zephyrite magic are all bright, then if the DSD is Kralk's opposite then it must be related to darkness." My point the whole time has been that this is a massive misnomer - Glint and Zephyrite magic are bright, but Kralkatorrik's is dark in comparison. In the same light, Pale Tree and sylvari magic is bright, while Mordremoth's is dark. It's a typical "good = bright; evil = dark" modifier and holds no sway over the actual spheres.

    Now, I could (and have) agreed with the notion that the DSD's second sphere may be related to gravity, though I would hardly call it "darkness" or "shadow" since that is literally Zhaitan's, but instead call it Spacial (since gravity wells and the like are all related to space) or even Celestial (this would mirror Kuunavang if the old "Kuunavang = DSD champ" rings true).

    Shadow, in the concept of GW2, is not "the space between light and darkness" but another name for darkness. Like with the plasma stuff, you're going too scientific and too specific.

    • In terms of plasma. The Zephyrite crystals are used to power the Photon Forge. Weaver refers to Fire+Air as plasma.
    • If fire is not the opposite of water then air has probably shifted meaning as well.
    • The initial argument wasn't about the brightness of magic, but the physical illumination of the aspects. Natural bioluminescence and fire may glow, but their users haven't shaped light/lightning.
    • Shadows can't hurt people from a scientific perspective. Zhaitain embodies the metaphysical shadow of death, the tunnel of light we see as we die, etc.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The previous damage types are not canon sources of what an object was. The graphics/substances have been updated with a new perspective.

    GW1 is still canon, both appearances and mechanics (where mechanics and lore intermingle).

    Just because things have changed in the 250 years does not negate what was.

    The retcon of holiness, the combination of shadow/dark, paragon's not using blue lightning/fire, the addition of several fields, etc make what magical scepters did not 100% canon beyond whether the aftereffect like being burned, shocked etc. Were dark scepters using demonic, shadow, mental, or celestial darkness?

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Correct. But soul comprehension w/e contains some mind-esque element that allows you to remove the mind, selectively change one's control over their body, and return original skills. We didn't see this amongst the Mordrem.

    I would say we did, given that the mordrem hylek (best example) do utilize the exact same skills as their non-mordrem counterparts. The Mordrem Guard don't really seem to use non-mordrem capabilities, and this is indeed weird. But we also see some necromantic abilities throughout various mordrem, primary example being the leeching thrashers who have a heavy use of life steal.

    We also see a number of mordrem with stealth, so if Zhaitan's domain of shadow = shadow magic as we see among thieves, this would explain that atop of the Shadow Tendrils/Smothering Shadows fought alongside the Shadow of the Dragon.

    Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline.

    The Shadow of the Dragon existed before the death of Zhaitain. The smothering shadows are called that because they can be buffed by and disrupt Divine Fire. The spark of Ascension, which is another mental phenomena.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The Dragons were six beings out of thousands. It's rare that the 2.5 entities that showed a particular power would all be descendants of the one with electromagnetic powers while the Pale Tree can't directly speak to non-Sylvari without an Avatar.

    There's no evidence that there were thousands like the Elder Dragons, but Glint and her children are not like the Elder Dragons but regular dragons like Kuunavang and Rotscale.

    The scions can replace their father/patriarch/others of his class, just like Grenth could replace Dhuum. It is very likely Glint & co do not have the body of a regular dragon. The only major difference is their crystal/air magic does not come with enslavement to a compulsive hunger.

    The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3.

    Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    They froze Mists, bound his spirit with it

    That's literally never said. I just checked. The "froze Mists" part. They did bind his spirit with it, but that holds no relation to the before mention that Jormag communicates with his minions through command of souls.

    You are correct. I assumed they froze it. Its "corrupted Mists" which could be anything really. Also the telepathic-esque association I made was with mind control.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The Sylvari heard it as a voice. I imagine the Sylvan hound received something more rudimentary from the empathic bond.

    It is not telepathy.

    Scarlet and Aerin literally had a conversation with the voice in their head. And IIRC, other sylvari/Mordrem Guard in HoT do too.

    Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races?

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Cool? Is it also that spheres cancel out as the corruptive substance/magic, not the extrusion during sleep and death?

    I believe the dragons that physically coat to the degree of Primordius and Jormag become vulnerable. But it is not automatically a weakness. I do not believe Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape. And I imagine there is some way to subvert it for the other set.

    It's also possible Novans were just wrong on uniqueness.

    I have no clue what you were saying (and nothing indicates that Taimi's machine can hook into a mindscape? That was Omadd's machine).

    His Mind was not located in a physical dimension. She knew the location of Primordius/Jormag, and how to collect their magic.

    As for the unique weakness, the Forgotten also say this during The Way Forward.

    Josso Essher: Each has a distinct flaw.
    Josso Essher: Mordremoth, for example, dominates thought. But its most powerful asset—its mind—is also its greatest liability.
    Josso Essher: Kralkatorrik's unique strength—its power to crystalize objects—is also its singular weakness.

    Well using the eternal alchemy to mix and match via an irreplacable invention is not a distinct flaw. It's interesting they say Mordremoth dominated thought.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature."

    There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc.

    The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what Shadow Tendrils are. They're Dragon Tendrils (aka large Jungle Tendrils) with shadow (and death?) magic in them.

    Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them.
    Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

    You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it.

    Clones are physically separate from the "source".

    Regardless of physical connection, it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere. The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres.

    The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    Again, going to cut out arguments I feel are being derailing.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • If fire is not the opposite of water then air has probably shifted meaning as well.
    • The initial argument wasn't about the brightness of magic, but the physical illumination of the aspects. Natural bioluminescence and fire may glow, but their users haven't shaped light/lightning.
    • Shadows can't hurt people from a scientific perspective. Zhaitain embodies the metaphysical shadow of death, the tunnel of light we see as we die, etc.
    • Why would water be fire's opposite in the first place? Because water is used to put fire out? But so is dirt (and that's actually more important). Water is used because it is a coolant, and is reducing the heat of fire. In this sense, ice - the extreme of coolant - would be used against fire/lava - the extreme of hot. This isn't really a shifted meaning.
    • The initial statement was, to quote, "Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalkatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based." but there really isn't much literal "light based" in it. No more so than fire is "light based".
    • And like I said, drop the scientific perspective. This is a fantasy setting, where the perception tends to veer towards what is visible to the naked eye, and what was once believed during medieval eras. Besides that, shadows - equivalent to "lack of light" - can be harmful in that wandering through the dark, you cannot see what can harm you. Being submerged in total darkness can also leave people grasping towards sanity. Zhaitan was more than the "shadow of death", he was literally exploiting fears. And if suspicion holds true, his shadow domain allowed him access to stealth and teleportation (shadowstepping) among other things.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline.

    The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart. I never established that animals aren't magicians (we actually know of many natural species which utilize magic - chak and skelk at the very least, but drakes and wyverns are likely, and we got many "psuedo elementals" like aqua/fire stalkers, sand lions, rock dogs, etc.).

    I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The Shadow of the Dragon existed before the death of Zhaitain. The smothering shadows are called that because they can be buffed by and disrupt Divine Fire. The spark of Ascension, which is another mental phenomena.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them.
    Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce.

    No, the Dragon Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon. And while the Shadow of the Dragon existed within the Dream before Zhaitan's death, it did not exist in Tyria. The Shadow Tendrils are very different from Dragon Tendrils in that they are literally enwrapped in shadow. Their very existence is what prompted the player theories that Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic (which no doubt led to Anet going that route in the end thus creating confusion and potential plotholes).

    And Zhaitan doesn't control Nightmares. Nowhere do we ever see Aatxes under his employ. The closest we get is the Priest of Grenth utilizing the Temple of Grenth's magic to summon Shades. But in the same light, every temple was used to summon twisted variations of that god's magic.

    Zhaitan, however, as stated did control illusions and clones, which are the creation of refracting light... shadows, if you will. Zhaitan has had the heaviest use of mesmers among his forces than any other Elder Dragon. This may hint that half of mesmer's magic comes from Shadow Magic (whoever said that a profession is limited to one type of magic? Given Elementalists/Rangers using four types, no one!)

    Furthermore, the Smothering Shadows are called such because they are literally shadows. And Divine Fire is more than part of Ascension which in turn is far more than mere mental phenomenal (it is literally the unlocking of one's potential and allowing them to see those who hide partway into the Mists like souls and mursaat; this is more soul-based than mind-based).

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3.

    Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important.

    "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree
    Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease.

    Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races?

    Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack.

    By all evidence, he wouldn't be capable of communicating with Malyck's branch of sylvari either.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Well using the eternal alchemy to mix and match via an irreplacable invention is not a distinct flaw. It's interesting they say Mordremoth dominated thought.

    That's not really what Taimi's Machine did, it was simply exposing the other to its weakness in beam energy form, the same way the Warbeast did to Kralkatorrik. No shaking or stirring required.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom.

    Debatable, and all evidence points against your conclusion, but regardless of that much, Mordremoth still absorbed the magic himself. Magic that, by all means, should make him go boom based on the existence of the Unstable Abomination and how it was killed.

    Thus creating the massive contradiction that we have presented. The Unstable Abomination died due to a mixing of death and plant; Mordremoth mixed death and plant but suffered no ill side effects. The Unstable Abomination shows that death and plant were weak to each other; Novans and Forgotten proclaim every Elder Dragon have one specific unique weakness and that Mordremoth's was his mind while (per devs) Zhaitan's was his reliance on specialized minions.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature."

    There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc.

    The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what Shadow Tendrils are. They're Dragon Tendrils (aka large Jungle Tendrils) with shadow (and death?) magic in them.

    Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them.
    Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

    You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it.

    Clones are physically separate from the "source".

    Regardless of physical connection, it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere. The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres.

    The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom.

    Ok so, why wasn’t Primordus making Risen and Mordrem then... why did Jormag make an Icebrood when he could have made a Risen or a Mordrem?

    Mordremoth is still using those energies though, he is using the death spectrum so he can make minions from the dead.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    • If fire is not the opposite of water then air has probably shifted meaning as well.
    • The initial argument wasn't about the brightness of magic, but the physical illumination of the aspects. Natural bioluminescence and fire may glow, but their users haven't shaped light/lightning.
    • Shadows can't hurt people from a scientific perspective. Zhaitain embodies the metaphysical shadow of death, the tunnel of light we see as we die, etc.
    • Why would water be fire's opposite in the first place? Because water is used to put fire out? But so is dirt (and that's actually more important). Water is used because it is a coolant, and is reducing the heat of fire. In this sense, ice - the extreme of coolant - would be used against fire/lava - the extreme of hot. This isn't really a shifted meaning.

    Because water was moist/cold while fire was dry/hot. The moist/hot air and the dry/cold earth could help or hurt their adjacent elements. Dirt smothered fire, but charcoal burns and rocks melt. If https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twin_Strike is separated by quality to achieve spheres of cold water vs hot fire, then what we call water is actually its moist quality. And dry fire was absorbed into the air sphere to make sun/lightning/wind.

    But that's too complicated. I assume the spheres are just canceling out by processes. Plant can oppose death, etc.

    • The initial statement was, to quote, "Air is probably the opposite of Shadow. Zephyrite skills (which are Glint's magic (which is Kraalakatorik's magic)) are somewhat "light" based." but there really isn't much literal "light based" in it. No more so than fire is "light based".
    • And like I said, drop the scientific perspective. This is a fantasy setting, where the perception tends to veer towards what is visible to the naked eye, and what was once believed during medieval eras.

    Besides that, shadows - equivalent to "lack of light" - can be harmful in that wandering through the dark, you cannot see what can harm you. Being submerged in total darkness can also leave people grasping towards sanity. Zhaitan was more than the "shadeow of death", he was literally exploiting fears. And if suspicion holds true, his shadow domain allowed him access to stealth and teleportation (shadowstepping) among other things.

    Magiscience is a large aspect of this fantasy. Holosmiths create light-based constructs/fields using a photon forge that runs on sun crystals. Like sun spirits they illuminate/burn without depending on flames.

    Ignoring real science, solar magic could be opposed by lunar magic, tides/celestial shadow/etc. Idk.

    Zhaitan's shadow is less elemental, more of a counterpoint to the light of faith than the sun.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline.

    The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart...

    So no spellcasting outside Mordremoth domain.

    I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality.

    I don't see why not.

    Based on GWEN, illusion magic is about inducing the aether into hardening and/or directly influencing the mind. I would assume phantasms/clones are just ethereal constructs that project imagery. It's probably much less taxing when you aren't going for indestructible barriers. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal

    Reality manipulation/stealth is under chaos magic and since https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Stavemaster_Adryn teleports/portals it's likely part of Mind magic too.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The Shadow of the Dragon existed before the death of Zhaitain. The smothering shadows are called that because they can be buffed by and disrupt Divine Fire. The spark of Ascension, which is another mental phenomena.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them.
    Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce.

    No, the Dragon Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon. And while the Shadow of the Dragon existed within the Dream before Zhaitan's death, it did not exist in Tyria. The Shadow Tendrils are very different from Dragon Tendrils in that they are literally enwrapped in shadow. Their very existence is what prompted the player theories that Mordremoth ate Zhaitan's magic (which no doubt led to Anet going that route in the end thus creating confusion and potential plotholes).

    Are they attached to a creature with shadow in its name? Do they display any abilities of the domain?

    And Zhaitan doesn't control Nightmares. Nowhere do we ever see Aatxes under his employ. The closest we get is the Priest of Grenth utilizing the Temple of Grenth's magic to summon Shades. But in the same light, every temple was used to summon twisted variations of that god's magic.

    I believe he summons shadow fiends. Also what is an Orrian Scout. It says undead but it's entirely spectral.

    Zhaitan, however, as stated did control illusions and clones, which are the creation of refracting light... shadows, if you will. Zhaitan has had the heaviest use of mesmers among his forces than any other Elder Dragon. This may hint that half of mesmer's magic comes from Shadow Magic (whoever said that a profession is limited to one type of magic? Given Elementalists/Rangers using four types, no one!)

    Where does it say illusions are refracting light? Also, forgive me, but when did Zhaitan ever control clones except via servitor?

    No one is limited by type of magic, but they would be by school. Shadow wouldn't have been in two Bloodstones. It makes more sense for them to refine chaos magic.

    Furthermore, the Smothering Shadows are called such because they are literally shadows. And Divine Fire is more than part of Ascension which in turn is far more than mere mental phenomenal (it is literally the unlocking of one's potential and allowing them to see those who hide partway into the Mists like souls and mursaat; this is more soul-based than mind-based).

    They are definitely made of bark. Literal shadows are in Menzies army. And sight and one's potential while alive are both mind.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3.

    Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important.

    "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree
    Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease.

    Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave.

    That makes no sense given that he must also convert Sylvari. If Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are telepathic its very limited outside close proximity, unless one is connected. Which brings us to....

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races?

    Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack.

    Then it's minor telepathy and major empathy.

    By all evidence, he wouldn't be capable of communicating with Malyck's branch of sylvari either.

    Ditto.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Well using the eternal alchemy to mix and match via an irreplacable invention is not a distinct flaw. It's interesting they say Mordremoth dominated thought.

    That's not really what Taimi's Machine did, it was simply exposing the other to its weakness in beam energy form, the same way the Warbeast did to Kralkatorrik. No shaking or stirring required.

    One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom.

    Debatable, and all evidence points against your conclusion, but regardless of that much, Mordremoth still absorbed the magic himself. Magic that, by all means, should make him go boom based on the existence of the Unstable Abomination and how it was killed.

    Thus creating the massive contradiction that we have presented. The Unstable Abomination died due to a mixing of death and plant; Mordremoth mixed death and plant but suffered no ill side effects. The Unstable Abomination shows that death and plant were weak to each other; Novans and Forgotten proclaim every Elder Dragon have one specific unique weakness and that Mordremoth's was his mind while (per devs) Zhaitan's was his reliance on specialized minions.

    Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture.

    Also regardless of whether I correctly matched opposites or not we should have some idea of what's in the leftover domains. There aren't that many options.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature."

    There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc.

    The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what Shadow Tendrils are. They're Dragon Tendrils (aka large Jungle Tendrils) with shadow (and death?) magic in them.

    Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them.
    Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

    You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it.

    Clones are physically separate from the "source".

    Regardless of physical connection, it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere. The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres.

    The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom.

    Ok so, why wasn’t Primordus making Risen and Mordrem then... why did Jormag make an Icebrood when he could have made a Risen or a Mordrem?

    Mordremoth is still using those energies though, he is using the death spectrum so he can make minions from the dead.

    Kralkatorrik makes an undead minion to brand it. Mordremoth makes an undead minion to clone it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature."

    There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc.

    The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what Shadow Tendrils are. They're Dragon Tendrils (aka large Jungle Tendrils) with shadow (and death?) magic in them.

    Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them.
    Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

    You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it.

    Clones are physically separate from the "source".

    Regardless of physical connection, it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere. The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres.

    The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom.

    Ok so, why wasn’t Primordus making Risen and Mordrem then... why did Jormag make an Icebrood when he could have made a Risen or a Mordrem?

    Mordremoth is still using those energies though, he is using the death spectrum so he can make minions from the dead.

    Kralkatorrik makes an undead minion to brand it. Mordremoth makes an undead minion to clone it.

    I think we are over complicating things here. We have to remember what the dragon’s main spheres are. Mordremoth is plant and mind. He got use of the death sphere, which to me is simply a bonus sphere to work with.

    With Mordremoth, he can simply create a minion, aka Vinetooth or he can clone them, which is apparently his preferred method as it’s faster. I imagine in previous dragon rises, Mordremoth would have to capture prisoners as fuel for his minion creation. This is his given nature as the Jungle Dragon. The dead could not be placed in a Blighting pod to create minions. The ability to use the dead in minion creation was completely unique to Zhaitan. Fast forward to Gw2. Mordremoth absorbs a portion of the death sphere from Zhaitan as the other elder dragon’s got a piece too. He can now throw dead bodies into blister pods and create minions.

    Primordus doesn’t corrupt living things, at least what we have seen in game. So you would think giving Primordus the death sphere would go to waste. Instead he augments his minions with the death sphere.

    Kralkatorrik can now brand the dead as before he could not. Had he flown over a dead corpse before it would get crystallized much like the landscape.

    Jormag should now in theory be able to make Icebrood from the dead.

    DSD seems to have abilities like Primordus and can produce minions, I imagine the DSD will augment his minions with death magic as well.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2018

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Because water was moist/cold while fire was dry/hot.

    Not really. I mean, you have warm and hot water all the time.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline.

    The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart...

    So no spellcasting outside Mordremoth domain.

    Hylek Mordrem use stealth and shadowstep, that's magic. Thrashers use life stealing, that's magic. Both of which are thief and necromancer traits, suggested to tie in directly to Zhaitan's spheres.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality.

    I don't see why not.

    Based on GWEN, illusion magic is about inducing the aether into hardening and/or directly influencing the mind. I would assume phantasms/clones are just ethereal constructs that project imagery. It's probably much less taxing when you aren't going for indestructible barriers. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal

    Reality manipulation/stealth is under chaos magic and since https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Stavemaster_Adryn teleports/portals it's likely part of Mind magic too.

    The problem is that only refers to a small portion of mesmer magic, and most importantly, never touches things like phantasms and stealth which is the two primary forms mesmer magic that we see common across risen.

    Besides that, ether/aether (more often the former spelling than the latter) is suggested to be a raw form of magic, and not something unique to mesmer magic in the first place.

    Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic.

    Hell, the presence of sylvari necromancers like Trahearne and Killeen are proof that plant and death shouldn't be canceling each other out.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Are they attached to a creature with shadow in its name? Do they display any abilities of the domain?

    The Shadow of the Dragon is named such because its first appearance was in the Dream of Dreams, where it was treated as the collective Elder Dragons' influence on Tyria as depicted by the Dream and Nightmare. Its name has nothing to do with literal shadows, nor does its nature beyond the metaphorical aspect.

    Mordremoth made it a real mordrem in Tyria, and while we see nothing referencing shadows in the first fight, we see it all over in the second fight even before the divine torch was used against it. These Shadow Tendrils are not directly connected to the Shadow of the Dragon, nor were the Dragon Tendrils (as the Shadow of the Dragon flies about), however, being literally wrapped in magical shadow shows that yes, it shows abilities of the domain.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    I believe he summons shadow fiends. Also what is an Orrian Scout. It says undead but it's entirely spectral.

    Zhaitan himself does not summon shadow fiends. The only risen to do so is the Risen Priest of Grenth at the temple. Orrian Scouts have the appearance of Risen Drakes under the influence of Spectral Armor, which is the closest thing necromancy has to stealth.

    Nightmares are souls which have been tormented and twisted into animalistic forms. We see Dhuum turn a small army of humanoid souls into spider-shaped nightmares in Hall of Chains even. Risen are not Nightmares.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Where does it say illusions are refracting light? Also, forgive me, but when did Zhaitan ever control clones except via servitor?

    No one is limited by type of magic, but they would be by school. Shadow wouldn't have been in two Bloodstones. It makes more sense for them to refine chaos magic.

    Don't recall exactly where the refracting light came from, but it was S1 I believe.

    Where does Zhaitan have any direct show of magic except via servitor and the form of which their corruption takes? Or any Elder Dragon for that matter?

    People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    They are definitely made of bark. Literal shadows are in Menzies army. And sight and one's potential while alive are both mind.

    If you're referring to the wiki's image, the model that appears during the Shadow of the Dragon fight differs from the three models encountered during Hearts and Minds. The Shadow of the Dragon Smothering Shadows are, literally, mordrem menders in Death Shroud effect. Malformed Shadows are tiny Teragriffs in, similarly, the Death Shroud effect.

    Shadow Army are Nightmares, see above for what they are - not shadows.

    I disagree that the ability to look partway into the Mists is mental and not spiritual. Everything about Ascension and Weh no Su is treated as spiritual.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3.

    Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important.

    "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree
    Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease.

    Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave.

    That makes no sense given that he must also convert Sylvari. If Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are telepathic its very limited outside close proximity, unless one is connected. Which brings us to....

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races?

    Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack.

    Then it's minor telepathy and major empathy.

    Mordremoth didn't convert willing servants. He brainwashed them, tricked them into believing his whispers were their own thoughts.

    In other words, Jormag whispers "Yo dawg, my name's Jormag and I heard you're looking for power. I can give it to you. You in?" in his own voice.

    While Mordremoth goes "Why are those guys looking at you funny? They don't trust you because you're sylvari. Sylvari were made to serve Mordremoth. I was made to serve Mordremoth. I should serve Mordremoth." in the victim's voice.

    Only when the attempt to convince sylvari that the whispers are their own thoughts fail does he go to more brute force methods that we witness as sylvari PCs in HoT. Occam and a few other NPCs comment on this throughout HoT.

    And then those he could, he just outright corrupted, like any non-Jormag Elder Dragon does.

    And it wasn't empathy. We literally hear him using telepathy. There's also Dream and Nightmare story bits which suggest that the Pale Tree is capable of direct telepathy too, not empathy.

    Empathy does seem to exist among sylvari with plants (and animals?) through the Dream, but the sharing of emotions is not literally whispering thoughts into someone's mind.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy.

    Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter?

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture.

    But magic is absorbed through the body.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Also regardless of whether I correctly matched opposites or not we should have some idea of what's in the leftover domains. There aren't that many options.

    Honestly, there could be. Depends on if they stick to the common tropes or go less common.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Because water was moist/cold while fire was dry/hot.

    Not really. I mean, you have warm and hot water all the time.

    Well of course. But the historical origins of the four elements is much earlier, and much less scientific, than the medieval era. They wanted it to map onto the four seasons. The correlation was definitely off, but at least they picked up on temperature and meteorological events.
    Air is hot/moist, and associated with spring
    Fire is hot/dry, and was associated with summer
    Earth is cold/dry, and was associated with autumn.
    Water is cold/moist and was associated with winter.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Are the Hylek/Thrashers using abilities of their species? Or spellcasting? You've established that animals aren't magicians. So that would include creatures like jaguars/vampire bat. Also, dark hallucinations and mind based stealth exist within the Mesmer discipline.

    The hylek do use the abilities of their species and what they were trained for (they're exact duplicates of their non-mordrem counterparts). Thrashers have no (known) non-mordrem counterpart...

    So no spellcasting outside Mordremoth domain.

    Hylek Mordrem use stealth and shadowstep, that's magic. Thrashers use life stealing, that's magic. Both of which are thief and necromancer traits, suggested to tie in directly to Zhaitan's spheres.

    We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    I would not link the Mind domain to everything mesmers can do. There is an abnormal level of mesmers that focus on stealth and illusions within the risen - so much so that I would suspect that they, like thieves, utilize shadow magic. The telepathic and mental alterations of mesmers I would list under mind magic, but not the phantasms, clones, and other illusions which are altering the refraction of light in reality more than one's perception of reality.

    I don't see why not.

    Based on GWEN, illusion magic is about inducing the aether into hardening and/or directly influencing the mind. I would assume phantasms/clones are just ethereal constructs that project imagery. It's probably much less taxing when you aren't going for indestructible barriers. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Research_Journal

    Reality manipulation/stealth is under chaos magic and since https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Legendary_Stavemaster_Adryn teleports/portals it's likely part of Mind magic too.

    The problem is that only refers to a small portion of mesmer magic, and most importantly, never touches things like phantasms and stealth which is the two primary forms mesmer magic that we see common across risen.

    It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid.

    And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard.

    Besides that, ether/aether (more often the former spelling than the latter) is suggested to be a raw form of magic, and not something unique to mesmer magic in the first place.

    >

    It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with.

    Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic.

    Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago.

    Hell, the presence of sylvari necromancers like Trahearne and Killeen are proof that plant and death shouldn't be canceling each other out.

    Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Are they attached to a creature with shadow in its name? Do they display any abilities of the domain?

    The Shadow of the Dragon is named such because its first appearance was in the Dream of Dreams, where it was treated as the collective Elder Dragons' influence on Tyria as depicted by the Dream and Nightmare. Its name has nothing to do with literal shadows, nor does its nature beyond the metaphorical aspect.

    >

    Mordremoth made it a real mordrem in Tyria, and while we see nothing referencing shadows in the first fight, we see it all over in the second fight even before the divine torch was used against it. These Shadow Tendrils are not directly connected to the Shadow of the Dragon, nor were the Dragon Tendrils (as the Shadow of the Dragon flies about), however, being literally wrapped in magical shadow shows that yes, it shows abilities of the Domain.

    It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Where does it say illusions are refracting light? Also, forgive me, but when did Zhaitan ever control clones except via servitor?

    No one is limited by type of magic, but they would be by school. Shadow wouldn't have been in two Bloodstones. It makes more sense for them to refine chaos magic.

    Don't recall exactly where the refracting light came from, but it was S1 I believe.

    Where does Zhaitan have any direct show of magic except via servitor and the form of which their corruption takes? Or any Elder Dragon for that matter?

    Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does.

    People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do.

    The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks.

    Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy.
    There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    The Pale Tree actually can. It was established that she uses the Avatar to put other races at ease, because humans, asura, norn, and charr find it very awkward to talk to a tree and hear a voice in the wind. This is a very similar concept to EDI in ME3, where she mentions that although crew members can talk to her anywhere on the ship, they prefer to talk to her robotic body she acquired early in ME3.

    Source perhaps? And why did Mordremoth never do so? You would think influencing the more popular races would be important.

    "I am not as I appear to you. This small body is but a manifestation I use to put visitors at ease. My entire being stretches deep into this world and out into the Dream. I am more than you can imagine."
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Avatar_of_the_Tree
    Similar dialogue is said at the conclusion of each chapter 1 sylvari PC, and was mentioned in interviews and articles about the sylvari pre-release. She doesn't create the avatar to communicate, but to put visitors at ease.

    Mordremoth likely wouldn't have bothered because he doesn't want to convert like Jormag does, he wanted to enslave.

    That makes no sense given that he must also convert Sylvari. If Mordremoth and the Pale Tree are telepathic its very limited outside close proximity, unless one is connected. Which brings us to....

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Through Wyld Hunts on an empathic race. Why didn't he speak with other races?

    Because his communication was through the Dream of Dreams, which other races lack.

    Then it's minor telepathy and major empathy.

    Mordremoth didn't convert willing servants. He brainwashed them, tricked them into believing his whispers were their own thoughts.

    In other words, Jormag whispers "Yo dawg, my name's Jormag and I heard you're looking for power. I can give it to you. You in?" in his own voice.

    While Mordremoth goes "Why are those guys looking at you funny? They don't trust you because you're sylvari. Sylvari were made to serve Mordremoth. I was made to serve Mordremoth. I should serve Mordremoth." in the victim's voice.

    Only when the attempt to convince sylvari that the whispers are their own thoughts fail does he go to more brute force methods that we witness as sylvari PCs in HoT. Occam and a few other NPCs comment on this throughout HoT.

    And then those he could, he just outright corrupted, like any non-Jormag Elder Dragon does.

    And it wasn't empathy. We literally hear him using telepathy. There's also Dream and Nightmare story bits which suggest that the Pale Tree is capable of direct telepathy too, not empathy.

    Empathy does seem to exist among sylvari with plants (and animals?) through the Dream, but the sharing of emotions is not literally whispering thoughts into someone's mind.

    Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences.

    Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity.

    It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy.

    Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter?

    Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture.

    But magic is absorbed through the body.

    Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Also regardless of whether I correctly matched opposites or not we should have some idea of what's in the leftover domains. There aren't that many options.

    Honestly, there could be. Depends on if they stick to the common tropes or go less common

    Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 18, 2018

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk.

    Mordrem Snipers, Hylek (even the Zintl Hylek), Quetzal, Vinetooths. They all have stealth abilities, but it doesn't seem to be "prowling/camouflage" since some can stealth in the middle of combat, and utilize similar techniques to thieves (particularly itzel hylek's means of stealthing mirrors Blinding Powder. I don't think they can just be attributed as cameleon-level stuff.

    As for the others: And? Because animals have mechanics which mirror spells, does not 1) negate them from being spells, and 2) does not mean other, completely unrelated creatures of magic have innate non-magical abilities that mirror but are not magical spells.

    You constantly say mordrem do not utilize death/shadow spheres because we see no death or shadow magic, and unlike risen the mordrem never utilize the original's abilities. I've provided multiple examples of all three cases, yet you argue "doesn't count!"

    Mordrem Guard Snipers, mordrem hylek, Vinetooths - they utilize stealth. Shadow magic.
    Mordrem Shadowleaper, Mordrem Guard Stalkers - they utilize shadowstepping. Shadow magic.
    Shadow Tendrils, Smothering Shadows, Malformed Shadows - they are literally covered in shadows. Shadow magic.
    Mordrem Guard Tormentors, Leeching Thrashers, Entanglers - they utilize necromancy (life steal, etc.). Death magic.
    Mordrem Restorers, Menders, Preservers, Healers, Heralds, Vinetenders, and Blocker - they use guardian/healing magic, not plant/mind magic.
    Corrupted Sylvari - some are elementalists, not plant/mind magic.

    There's plenty of examples that the mordrem themselves utilize shadow and death magic. That they're not limited to just plant and mind magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid.

    And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard.

    Conjure Phantasm is messing with people's minds to see ghosts. It's not spawning illusionary phantasms as GW2 classifies them.

    I fail to see magic used via a golem is faith magic... I mean, it's asura magic for starters, which is pretty heavily not classified as guardian magic. Guardians may use "light magic", but it isn't the manipulation of visible/invisible light. Also, guardians do not stealth. And illusions are not faith. I don't even get where you come up with that.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with.

    Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic.

    Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago.

    Holy contradictions, batman!

    You've been arguing from the beginning that "mordrem do not use death/shadow magic!" And that they do not have their original abilitie.s This has been your argument since day 1. Now you're suddenly saying "oh, he could be using post-Zhaitan magic!"

    As to the aether stuff, we literally have no source on what aether/ether is in Tyria. Literally, no source. At all.

    The best we have is the Halloween scavenger hunt, that the Dream is partially made of it (though for all we know this could be non-literal), and a much-hated and already partially-contradicted interview with Angel McCoy, and Anet has stated that "non-official releases are pseudo-canon until in the game" meaning anything from that interview is subject to change.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture.

    And yet, Taimi proclaims that everyday magic is dragon magic. And yet, Season 3 that constantly presents these contradictions that I have been pointing out as being contradictions, proclaim that your argument should be false. Yet you say it isn't.

    You're not disagreeing with me here anymore, even though you started to.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth.

    It happens once. Means it happens.

    They're not hallucinations. They're physical entities we can smash with a blade.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does.

    Not really. Firstly, those are not illusions. By either dictionary definition, or by GW magic meaning. They're manifestations of the mind in a mindscape. Secondly, because we're fighting in a mindscape, there's a case of "what you think of becomes reality", at least to a degree. With Mordremoth, this was the Blighted NPCs.

    They're not really illusions. Not in the same sense as mesmer magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do.

    The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks.

    >

    Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy.
    There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow.

    I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. Ice magic was split between schools? That's more or less what I said. Shadow magic wasn't split between schools? Okay, sure... maybe. Your point?

    I said we don't know what the relation between the four schools and the supposed 12 spectrums is. Presuming that the two are two different classifications of all magic, then there will not only be multiple spectrums per school, but a heavy chance of spectrums being part of multiple schools.

    Even then, we have no evidence to proclaim that shadow magic was never split between multiple schools. In theory, necromancers, mesmers, and assassins all could have utilized it in some form. Equally in theory, mesmers may have only adopted it after schools had become so needless due to the excessive magic in the world, meaning that comparisons to GW1 is pointless.

    We know for a fact that magic had changed in the past 250 years due to more magic being in the ambient world than in the bloodstones. We know this had been a gradual change, and this is why dual professions were possible back in GW1.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences.

    Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity.

    It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers.

    Mordremoth didn't communicate using sensations though. He used actual words.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy.

    Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter?

    Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter.

    I don't think you understand what Taimi's Machine actually did.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture.

    But magic is absorbed through the body.

    Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in.

    -points to Taimi's comment about all magic being dragon magic; points to the Unstable Abomination; points to Mordremoth still utilizing the death sphere-

    It got nothing to do with the magic beign corruptive. Obviously it would be in the same state whether Mordremoth ate it and used it to make minions, or Jormag ate it and used it to make minions.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters.

    Not really. After all, do you know any mortal that utilizes zephyrite skills-like magic, or crystal magic, without the aid of a dragon? And given that we see no relation between Jormag and Primordus' supposed second spheres besides ice, fire, and earth (the latter could be stretched to actually be Kralkatorrik's earth I guess) and their minions, thus cannot relate such to mortal magic, there's a wide scope of magic that is used by mortals but not by any dragon.

    This would suggest that there's more than 12 spheres of magic, and just that the Elder Dragons merely utilize a non-total amount of magical types.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk.

    Mordrem Snipers, Hylek (even the Zintl Hylek), Quetzal, Vinetooths. They all have stealth abilities, but it doesn't seem to be "prowling/camouflage" since some can stealth in the middle of combat, and utilize similar techniques to thieves (particularly itzel hylek's means of stealthing mirrors Blinding Powder. I don't think they can just be attributed as cameleon-level stuff.

    As for the others: And? Because animals have mechanics which mirror spells, does not 1) negate them from being spells, and 2) does not mean other, completely unrelated creatures of magic have innate non-magical abilities that mirror but are not magical spells.

    You constantly say mordrem do not utilize death/shadow spheres because we see no death or shadow magic, and unlike risen the mordrem never utilize the original's abilities. I've provided multiple examples of all three cases, yet you argue "doesn't count!"

    Mordrem Guard Snipers, mordrem hylek, Vinetooths - they utilize stealth. Shadow magic.
    Mordrem Shadowleaper, Mordrem Guard Stalkers - they utilize shadowstepping. Shadow magic.
    Shadow Tendrils, Smothering Shadows, Malformed Shadows - they are literally covered in shadows. Shadow magic.
    Mordrem Guard Tormentors, Leeching Thrashers, Entanglers - they utilize necromancy (life steal, etc.). Death magic.
    Mordrem Restorers, Menders, Preservers, Healers, Heralds, Vinetenders, and Blocker - they use guardian/healing magic, not plant/mind magic.
    Corrupted Sylvari - some are elementalists, not plant/mind magic.

    There's plenty of examples that the mordrem themselves utilize shadow and death magic. That they're not limited to just plant and mind magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid.

    And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard.

    Conjure Phantasm is messing with people's minds to see ghosts. It's not spawning illusionary phantasms as GW2 classifies them.

    I fail to see magic used via a golem is faith magic... I mean, it's asura magic for starters, which is pretty heavily not classified as guardian magic. Guardians may use "light magic", but it isn't the manipulation of visible/invisible light. Also, guardians do not stealth. And illusions are not faith. I don't even get where you come up with that.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with.

    Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic.

    Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago.

    Holy contradictions, batman!

    You've been arguing from the beginning that "mordrem do not use death/shadow magic!" And that they do not have their original abilitie.s This has been your argument since day 1. Now you're suddenly saying "oh, he could be using post-Zhaitan magic!"

    As to the aether stuff, we literally have no source on what aether/ether is in Tyria. Literally, no source. At all.

    The best we have is the Halloween scavenger hunt, that the Dream is partially made of it (though for all we know this could be non-literal), and a much-hated and already partially-contradicted interview with Angel McCoy, and Anet has stated that "non-official releases are pseudo-canon until in the game" meaning anything from that interview is subject to change.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture.

    And yet, Taimi proclaims that everyday magic is dragon magic. And yet, Season 3 that constantly presents these contradictions that I have been pointing out as being contradictions, proclaim that your argument should be false. Yet you say it isn't.

    You're not disagreeing with me here anymore, even though you started to.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth.

    It happens once. Means it happens.

    They're not hallucinations. They're physical entities we can smash with a blade.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does.

    Not really. Firstly, those are not illusions. By either dictionary definition, or by GW magic meaning. They're manifestations of the mind in a mindscape. Secondly, because we're fighting in a mindscape, there's a case of "what you think of becomes reality", at least to a degree. With Mordremoth, this was the Blighted NPCs.

    They're not really illusions. Not in the same sense as mesmer magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do.

    The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks.

    >

    Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy.
    There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow.

    I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. Ice magic was split between schools? That's more or less what I said. Shadow magic wasn't split between schools? Okay, sure... maybe. Your point?

    I said we don't know what the relation between the four schools and the supposed 12 spectrums is. Presuming that the two are two different classifications of all magic, then there will not only be multiple spectrums per school, but a heavy chance of spectrums being part of multiple schools.

    Even then, we have no evidence to proclaim that shadow magic was never split between multiple schools. In theory, necromancers, mesmers, and assassins all could have utilized it in some form. Equally in theory, mesmers may have only adopted it after schools had become so needless due to the excessive magic in the world, meaning that comparisons to GW1 is pointless.

    We know for a fact that magic had changed in the past 250 years due to more magic being in the ambient world than in the bloodstones. We know this had been a gradual change, and this is why dual professions were possible back in GW1.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences.

    Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity.

    It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers.

    Mordremoth didn't communicate using sensations though. He used actual words.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy.

    Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter?

    Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter.

    I don't think you understand what Taimi's Machine actually did.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture.

    But magic is absorbed through the body.

    Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in.

    -points to Taimi's comment about all magic being dragon magic; points to the Unstable Abomination; points to Mordremoth still utilizing the death sphere-

    It got nothing to do with the magic beign corruptive. Obviously it would be in the same state whether Mordremoth ate it and used it to make minions, or Jormag ate it and used it to make minions.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters.

    Not really. After all, do you know any mortal that utilizes zephyrite skills-like magic, or crystal magic, without the aid of a dragon? And given that we see no relation between Jormag and Primordus' supposed second spheres besides ice, fire, and earth (the latter could be stretched to actually be Kralkatorrik's earth I guess) and their minions, thus cannot relate such to mortal magic, there's a wide scope of magic that is used by mortals but not by any dragon.

    This would suggest that there's more than 12 spheres of magic, and just that the Elder Dragons merely utilize a non-total amount of magical types.

    I think if we start seeing branded stealthing and shadow stepping, Konig, we can confirm generally what the Shadow Magic sphere looks like, the same can be said for other dragon minions as well.

  • Daniel Handler.4816Daniel Handler.4816 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    We train to spot the stealth techniques of the Coztic and other animals/plants/fungi, placing it closer to prowling/camouflage than melding with shadows/death. Vampire bats life steal and stepping/teleportation techniques occur naturally in smokescale/skelk.

    Mordrem Snipers, Hylek (even the Zintl Hylek), Quetzal, Vinetooths. They all have stealth abilities, but it doesn't seem to be "prowling/camouflage" since some can stealth in the middle of combat, and utilize similar techniques to thieves (particularly itzel hylek's means of stealthing mirrors Blinding Powder. I don't think they can just be attributed as cameleon-level stuff.

    And it is spotted like mushrooms etc all the same while stealth elsewhere goes unnoticed.

    As for the others: And? Because animals have mechanics which mirror spells, does not 1) negate them from being spells, and 2) does not mean other, completely unrelated creatures of magic have innate non-magical abilities that mirror but are not magical spells.'

    You constantly say mordrem do not utilize death/shadow spheres because we see no death or shadow magic, and unlike risen the mordrem never utilize the original's abilities. I've provided multiple examples of all three cases, yet you argue "doesn't count!"

    Learned spellcasting abilities, not the biological adaptation of the local flora/fauna, or life/mind. Zhaitain was obvious, and across all schools. Joko's not even an Elder Dragon and he performs much better than Mordremoth.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It doesn't have to touch on phantasms because https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Conjure_Phantasm already categorized them. It just had to establish that illusion magic can be solid.

    And while the refractive/reflective component of anything, as well as stealth, wasn't mentioned until GW2. That doesn't point to shadow magic. It points to an https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aetheric cloak which if Mesmers couldn't do on their own would be with faith magic. They use light/light fields to swift/reflect/steath (curtain and veil) and the stealth uses a prismatic understanding. A mixture could occur while everyone was learning a little preservation magic post GWEN, and perhaps Mesmers found out how to inspire invisibility. Illusions already bestowed 100% faith, getting light to comply shouldn't be that hard.

    Conjure Phantasm is messing with people's minds to see ghosts. It's not spawning illusionary phantasms as GW2 classifies them.

    That was retconned around the same time as the calendar getting 5 days. Now illusions always existed outside the mind and making an individual see a ghost is secret high-level stuff known only by the Mesmer Collective. As a result, the Shrines of Lyssa summons phantasm, some of which even teleport and life steal. As well as summoning portals.

    I fail to see magic used via a golem is faith magic... I mean, it's asura magic for starters, which is pretty heavily not classified as guardian magic. Guardians may use "light magic", but it isn't the manipulation of visible/invisible light. Also, guardians do not stealth. And illusions are not faith. I don't even get where you come up with that.

    Whether or not magic replicated by alchemy has an alternative classification, the reality is that you can use aether to bend light to achieve stealth. Mesmer stealth is based on a prismatic understanding, and light. Thief stealth is based on shadow forms and darkness.

    In the unlikely instance Mesmers couldn't shape an aetheric cloak that bent light, they could inspire themselves with the belief they/others are invisible and have faith in that. Guardians use mystic tomes, etc for the memories, Mesmers can manufacte them.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It permeates the Mists and forms the Dream. It's probably closer to being a fifth element. Every mage, and aetheric assembly device, can construct substances from ether. Elementalists can recycle it from spells.Only mesmers directly induce it instead of conjuring from it. Probably because it's the mind that manipulates ether to begin with.

    Also, the fallacy in using Adryn in your argument is that as a post-Zhaitan's death Mordrem Guard, he could be using non-Mind and non-Plant magic. And as a Mordrem Guard, and therefore sylvari, he could utilize any form of magic.

    Nature magic, elemental weaving, and chronos are the only ones who've bent gravity. And he is a clone of a Sylvari, the real Adryn died long ago.

    Holy contradictions, batman!

    You've been arguing from the beginning that "mordrem do not use death/shadow magic!" And that they do not have their original abilitie.s This has been your argument since day 1. Now you're suddenly saying "oh, he could be using post-Zhaitan magic!

    ??? The Legendary clones died long ago and are constantly remade. They all have powers not held by regular mortals that are mind/plant in nature. So does Adryn, I don't see the confusion.

    As to the aether stuff, we literally have no source on what aether/ether is in Tyria. Literally, no source. At all.

    The best we have is the Halloween scavenger hunt, that the Dream is partially made of it (though for all we know this could be non-literal), and a much-hated and already partially-contradicted interview with Angel McCoy, and Anet has stated that "non-official releases are pseudo-canon until in the game" meaning anything from that interview is subject to change.

    Distortion works by focusing the aether around oneself. There were elementals from it. The aetheric assembly device uses it to construct matter and other aetheric devices use it for teleportation or stealth. I don't see why this interview would be pseudo-canon:

    In Tyria, “aether” refers to the metaphysical substance that occupies the spaces between matter and energy; analogous to the vacuum of space between planets as well as the space between protons and neutrons (if said vacuum of space had a magical presence to it). It is not a definable and measurable thing like ley lines, which represent the actual flow of magical energy through and across Tyria.

    As such, aether is one aspect of the magic mortals or Elder Dragons use. It is part of the magical/physical structure of the universe, but unavailable for direct study—sort of like dark matter: there is something there, a presence that includes a magical aspect, which we can observe and verify from the effects it produces, but so far no one can reproducibly locate, measure, or study it. They’ve only learned how to tap it. If tapping a source of power you don’t entirely understand sounds dangerous to you, that’s because it is.

    It's a raw magical substance found in, not made of, raw magic.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Elementalists can weave together every element. And Kurzick Juggernauts exist. The opposition of spheres comes from the transformative aspect of corruption that is not present in regular magic. It eats at each other, creating ley instead of a mixture.

    And yet, Taimi proclaims that everyday magic is dragon magic. And yet, Season 3 that constantly presents these contradictions that I have been pointing out as being contradictions, proclaim that your argument should be false. Yet you say it isn't.

    And everyday squares are rectangles. It's not a contradiction. It's a categorical grouping.

    You're not disagreeing with me here anymore, even though you started to.

    I don't believe I did to begin with. We just switched back and forth between calling it spheres or magic too many times. I don't think a Mordrem will die when exposed to or casting ambient/bloodstone death or shadow magic. But using the corruptive spheres are another matter.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    It only occurred one time, in only one fight in LS2. Never again, not even as a reference by Taimi during her comments on absorption. We saw dark hallucinations to match the name of the enemy, not shadow magic. Those same creatures have a normal appearance in the later expansion, including our fight with Mordremoth.

    It happens once. Means it happens.

    They're not hallucinations. They're physical entities we can smash with a blade.

    No. You struck the plants. Which are just as solid as any other of their kind in HoT. Your blade did not catch on the nightmarish aura, the shadowy substance did not touch you, nor did these creatures shadowstep or stealth. They are as much shadow as the bioluminescent thrashers are death. ANET went with the animation they had.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Zhaitan does not make illusions during his fight with us. Mordremoth does.

    Not really. Firstly, those are not illusions. By either dictionary definition, or by GW magic meaning. They're manifestations of the mind in a mindscape. Secondly, because we're fighting in a mindscape, there's a case of "what you think of becomes reality", at least to a degree. With Mordremoth, this was the Blighted NPCs.

    If we're going by dictionary definition then his mastery of the occipital lobe suffices. The control over the other lobes/Blighted NPCs is extra. Otherwise Pale Tree's summoning avatars in and out of the dream without having absorbed death or shadow is enough.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    People aren't really limited by schools though. Even by GW1 that limitation was bare. And given that magic was collectively put into one Bloodstone, we do not know how the spectrum of magic was divided into the schools - the two are not mutually exclusive nor are one confined to another outright. Especially given that we see necromancers use ice magic just as elementalists do.

    The ice sphere has been split since core Gw1, elementalists do not separate it from water magic nor necromancers from death magic. Likewise for the fire sphere and elementalists/paragon/monks.

    >

    Shadow was never split in Gw1. And Gw2 mirrors the illusion + fireball/doctorate explanation of Angel McCoy.
    There is indirect usage by nature magic/engineering. But there isn't active usage outside one's lane, especially not to the degree of the ice or fire split. People may have co-opted the techniques but the added stepping and dark fields are ostensibly not shadow.

    I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue here. Ice magic was split between schools? That's more or less what I said. Shadow magic wasn't split between schools? Okay, sure... maybe. Your point?

    I said we don't know what the relation between the four schools and the supposed 12 spectrums is. Presuming that the two are two different classifications of all magic, then there will not only be multiple spectrums per school, but a heavy chance of spectrums being part of multiple schools.

    Even then, we have no evidence to proclaim that shadow magic was never split between multiple schools. In theory, necromancers, mesmers, and assassins all could have utilized it in some form. Equally in theory, mesmers may have only adopted it after schools had become so needless due to the excessive magic in the world, meaning that comparisons to GW1 is pointless. We know for a fact that magic had changed in the past 250 years due to more magic being in the ambient world than in the bloodstones. We know this had been a gradual change, and this is why dual professions were possible back in GW1.

    Dual professions didn't mix skills and were phased out as education grew more complex.
    During this point people willingly adopted simple healing magic. There is no simple shadowstepping/stealth. Unless dark energy manipulation is somehow essential to stepping, teleportation, or invisibility there is no reason to learn shadow magic beyond the techniques. It easier to just cast things with the set of energies one spent decades taming. And it goes both ways. Deadeye doesn't alter their senses with mind magic because they found a way with shadow.

    As far as how the spectrum fits into school I have a theory. The fenstone contained a lunacy inducing, space-time warping, crystal generating magenta magic that could diverge into five spheres https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unstable_Magic resembling the conditions chaos storms/winds/vortexes posses. 250 years ago chaos abilities were just a part of domination magic and the non-mind parts weren't evident.

    Perhaps each school is defined by the spectrums in high concentration. Humans can't filter magic as well as chak so much smaller amounts of other domains could get included without anyone noticing until more ambient magic reveals their presence in previous spells. This would allow elite specializations to be specializations within one discipline while enabling the effects to branch out without another doctorate. Eg Firebrand didn't learn elementalist magic to conjure water.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Empaths communicate using translated sensations to converse with plants and animals in the absence of thoughts. Mordremoth only spoke with plants from a distance using a link that passes feelings/experiences.

    Whether you call that telepathy or not, it was severely limited by distance. He/PT only converse with non-plant creatures when they are attached to the Dream, or in incredibly close proximity.

    It makes more sense mind bonds require eyesight to make temporarily, and touch to make permanent. So Jennah needed the window in Ebonhawke or Logan's hand. And Mordremoth didn't squandered an opportunity to influence thousands of possible soldiers.

    Mordremoth didn't communicate using sensations though. He used actual words.

    Jormag and Glint & co send words. Mordremoth didn't speak in a fake accent, he sent the sensation of a Wyld Hunt and used it to hijack our internal monologue. It was mind control being used to achieve telepathy. Thoughts aren't inherent motivators, and the other beings he controls, like insects, wolves, plants, etc, don't have them.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    One would think Mordremoth is outside of the realm of beam energy.

    Given he still has a physical body (or bodies) he wouldn't be, but he wasn't affected by Taimi's Machine so why does that matter?

    Because it wouldn't be a weakness, his physical body could always be regrown. That being said I doubt the Forgotten fortold Omadd's machine and it's deus ex machina is gone, so it doesn't matter.

    I don't think you understand what Taimi's Machine actually did.

    It reversed their energies using the Eternal Alchemy and sent them towards the bodies of the opposite dragons. That would not work on Mordremoth.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Perhaps the mind could absorb what the body could not. And thus he could comprehend corpses but his body could never make any mixture.

    But magic is absorbed through the body.

    Then perhaps the magic dragons release when they die isn't corruptive. It's what they cast and cover their bodies in.

    -points to Taimi's comment about all magic being dragon magic; points to the Unstable Abomination; points to Mordremoth still utilizing the death sphere-

    It got nothing to do with the magic beign corruptive. Obviously it would be in the same state whether Mordremoth ate it and used it to make minions, or Jormag ate it and used it to make minions.

    All squares are rectangles. The Unstable Abomination wasn't exuded on sleep or death. His mind is not his body, and what he learns is not added beyond plant/mind. Similarly Kralkatorik resurrects, brands, and hive minds his minions. He doesn't add plant or shadow.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    Even with less common we just have to account for mortal spellcasters.

    Not really. After all, do you know any mortal that utilizes zephyrite skills-like magic, or crystal magic, without the aid of a dragon? And given that we see no relation between Jormag and Primordus' supposed second spheres besides ice, fire, and earth (the latter could be stretched to actually be Kralkatorrik's earth I guess) and their minions, thus cannot relate such to mortal magic, there's a wide scope of magic that is used by mortals but not by any dragon.

    Druids move as wisps of light. Updrafts and riding the lightning are staples of air. Mirages/Earth elementalists are crystal users.
    Drakkar's whispers and disrupts Jora/Svanir connection to Bear, the Wolf Havroun spirit is bound by SoS. Binding rituals are part of preservation. The opposite of spirit is lifeless substance, and Primordius minions are spawned without conversion or growth. Just like Elemental conjures/constructs from destruction.

    There isn't going to be a 1:1 in animations between mortals and Dragons, but we can get the effects and themes down.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    >

    All squares are rectangles. The Unstable Abomination wasn't exuded on sleep or death. His mind is not his body, and what he learns is not added beyond plant/mind. Similarly Kralkatorik resurrects, brands, and hive minds his minions. He doesn't add plant or shadow.

    We haven’t seen Kralkatorrik make use of plant or shadow magic yet. If we start seeing branded shadowsrep or stealth, which is an attribute that the branded lacked previous then we will know he has made use of shadow magic.

  • @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:
    "Physically using the death spectrum to make minions would be raising the undead or creating a death touched creature."

    There is no Mordremoth equivalent of https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Touched_Destroyer , https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death-Branded_Lieutenant, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Undead_Larva etc.

    The first and second are basically normal minions who have a death shroud effect. That is 100% what Shadow Tendrils are. They're Dragon Tendrils (aka large Jungle Tendrils) with shadow (and death?) magic in them.

    Shadow Tendrils are Jungle Tendrils of the Shadow of the Dragon, which existed before Zhaitan died. They are not plants with shadow magic in them.
    Zhaitan controls fear and nightmarish entities like shadow fiends and Aatxe. He does not control dark hallucinations or any other darkness Mesmer's produce.

    @Daniel Handler.4816 said:

    In theory Jormag should now be able to create icebrood from corpses as well, and it’s hard to say how the abomination was created in bitter frost, but you’ll notice it still looks like icebrood, the same can be said about the branded wyvern making minions from the dead devourers, they don’t appear as undead devourers, but branded devourers. The same can be said for Mordremoth, his method doesn’t change, his sources for minions does.

    You can certainly raise the dead to corrupt it.

    Clones are physically separate from the "source".

    Regardless of physical connection, it's been confirmed that the dead cannot be used without Zhaitan's death sphere. The same way Kralkatorrik can brand the dead and Primordus can make his minions green thanks to the death sphere, Mordremoth can clone the dead. They're all cases of Elder Dragons using the death (and shadow?) spheres.

    The physical connection is the whole point. Mordremoth can use the death sphere to understand the dead. He can create clones using that information. He doesn't resurrect the dead to turn them into plants or add death to his plants. Nothing goes boom.

    Ok so, why wasn’t Primordus making Risen and Mordrem then... why did Jormag make an Icebrood when he could have made a Risen or a Mordrem?

    Mordremoth is still using those energies though, he is using the death spectrum so he can make minions from the dead.

    Kralkatorrik makes an undead minion to brand it. Mordremoth makes an undead minion to clone it.

    I think we are over complicating things here. We have to remember what the dragon’s main spheres are. Mordremoth is plant and mind. He got use of the death sphere, which to me is simply a bonus sphere to work with.

    With Mordremoth, he can simply create a minion, aka Vinetooth or he can clone them, which is apparently his preferred method as it’s faster. I imagine in previous dragon rises, Mordremoth would have to capture prisoners as fuel for his minion creation. This is his given nature as the Jungle Dragon. The dead could not be placed in a Blighting pod to create minions. The ability to use the dead in minion creation was completely unique to Zhaitan. Fast forward to Gw2. Mordremoth absorbs a portion of the death sphere from Zhaitan as the other elder dragon’s got a piece too. He can now throw dead bodies into blister pods and create minions.

    Primordus doesn’t corrupt living things, at least what we have seen in game. So you would think giving Primordus the death sphere would go to waste. Instead he augments his minions with the death sphere.

    Kralkatorrik can now brand the dead as before he could not. Had he flown over a dead corpse before it would get crystallized much like the landscape.

    Jormag should now in theory be able to make Icebrood from the dead.

    DSD seems to have abilities like Primordus and can produce minions, I imagine the DSD will augment his minions with death magic as well.

    Yes. Plant and mind. He didn't add death to the former, the clones were his minions, not the blueprints. Nor did he create death-touched Mordrem.

    He used death magic with the mind and learned about the inner workings of the sources for clones. He couldn't transfer the soul between them like, Zhaitan and Joko could do for artifacts, elementals, golems, etc. But he could understand the physiology enough to direct the rapid production of exact biological copies.

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