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How long should you take to clear daily fractals?

tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭
edited June 6, 2018 in Fractals, Dungeons & Raids

Hello everyone,

While doing Fractal of the Mists daily (CM's + T4 + Recs), I've noticed that some class have become extremely recurrent to what we see in daily T4, CM's and Recs and I've wanted to question if some changes could be possible in order to make other class more viable (I'm mostly referring to support class) and make the game more enjoyable.

This post talks about the following topics:

  • Clearing times: I've divided Looking for Group (LFG) groups in 5 different categories and explain how each group complete the fractals in a given time. With this, I attempt to make a distinction between what I believe is "Try Hard Mode", "Acceptable speed" and "Quite slow" clearing speed.

  • Reccuring and forgotten class: I highlight, what I believe is the current meta comp and point out, how does it affect the class that are "in" and "out" of the meta.

  • Boons and Utilities: I look at the boons, conditions and utilities that each different class bring to a party. I have only looked at Meta, Support and Power class. With this, I hope to show how some class are outperforming others.

  • Speed clear and elitism: Furthermore, I'd like to highlight that, this game shows high possibilities for elitism fast clear and strategies, but doesn't give option to do so more than 1h, 2h a day in it's daily content (by this I'm saying that for a lot of player that enjoy HL PvE, once you've done your daily fotm and weekly raid clear I truly do not know what those players are supposed to do, if not go to PvP but that's an entirely different game mode.

Edit:
-Title change: original title "How does elitism destroys game mode", and the one after that was "Is fractal clear time important?"
-Last edit: 01/06/2018 (added the section support class to "Boon and Meta comp")
-Last edit: 05/06/2018 (added Necromancer to "Recurring and forgotten class"; added the topic "Why look at clearing times?"
-Last edit 06/06/2018 (added Radiance signet share variant to boons section of the Support Firebrand to the section "Boon and Meta comp")
-Last edit 06/06/2018 (changed the introduction and removed "note:" of introduction part; previously indicating to skip to "Recurring and forgotten class"; after multiple edits, most sections have became important to this posts)


What are Fractal of the Mists?

Fractals of the Mists (FotM) are a special type of dungeons, they becomes available to player at level 80 and can be completed daily for rewards. There are 15 different 'fractals' (mini-dungeons) which can be played at different difficulty level. There are 4 tiers, each tier is more difficult (1 being the easiest, 4 the hardest). Higher level fractals gives better rewards, but requires higher Agony Resistance (AR).

-Tier 1 Initiate (level 1-25) requires 17AR
-Tier 2 Adept (level 26-50) requires 61AR
-Tier 3 Expert (level 51-75) requires 106AR
-Tier 4 Master (level 76-100) requires 150AR

There are three type of daily fractals (17 chests in total):

  • Tier N, which award 12 chests – There are 3 different daily Tier N fractals and completing higher tier will automatically award lower tier fractals chests.
  • Recommended, which award 3 chests – There are 3 daily Recommended, one in each of the lower tier fractals (Tier 1 to Tier 3)
  • CM's, which award 2 chests – There are currently 2 fractals which include a Challenge Mode (100 and 99)

Because the daily rewards gives a good amount of gold players tend to do them daily. However, there is a huge gap between


T4 clearing times & the 5 different group levels

I will only talk about Tier 4 fractal group and how I think there are different group level and the difference between them. Most players who do fractals daily are doing T4 fractals, and those who aren't there yet, will reach it fairly quickly, as it is now relatively fast to acquire Ascended Gear and infuse it with +9 infusion in order to get 150AR to do all different fractals level.

In my opinion there are 5 different fractal group which you can find while doing daily CM's / T4 / Recs (link to Google spreadsheet here)

  • Level 1 (Meta)
    Comp: Chrono, Warrior (banner), 2x Weaver and Druid
    CM's: 20-30 min
    T4: 15-30 min
    This gives you the fastest clearing speed. Weaver currently have the highest DPS in Fractals and the fact that there are power let you use different sigils for different encounter.

  • Level 2 (Power class)
    Comp: Chrono, Warrior (banner), 2x Power class and Druid
    CM's: 30-40 min
    T4: 15-30 min

  • Level 3 (Synergise class)
    Comp 1: Chrono, Warrior (banner), Holosmith, 1x Condi class and Druid
    Comp 2: Chrono, Warrior (banner) or Druid, 3x Scourge
    Comp 3: Chrono, Warrior (banner), 1x Power DPS, 1x Condi DPS and Druid
    CM's: 30-40 min
    T4: 20-40 min
    It's quite rare to see those group in the LFG, if they appear, it will most likely be a group of friend or a Guild who just need 1 or 2 extra player, and they most likely can't or don't want to run a Weaver comp, but still enjoy doing CM's + T4 on there preferred class. Hence the 40+ kp requirement is not accurate.

  • Level 4 (Chrono + Druid)
    Comp: Chrono, 3x Any DPS and Druid
    CM's: generally don't do them
    T4: 30-80 min

  • Level 5 (Whatever group)
    Comp: 4x Any Class, 1x Druid
    CM's: generally don't do them
    T4: 40-120 min
    Those comps generally run a druid for might + healing but do not really care about the overall efficiency of the group or just 'play for fun'

As you can see, Level 1 to 3 are relatively viable in completing daily fotm fairly quickly. There can however be a massive gap between level 1 & 2 group (see Boons and Meta further down), however you will most likely not be able to experience the difference (or very rarely) if you join a LFG group.


Why look at clearing times?

I believe it is important to look at clearing times, for the following reasons. First, it gives you a global view on how fast each group clear fractals daily. Second, it shows you what class in particular are in those different group levels. And Third, it also shows you what comp or class are not in those levels.

While, I believe that the answer to How long should you take to clear daily fractals? will vary with each player and that there might not be a correct answer. I do believe that each "Role" in FotM should be available to be played on multiple class. I will however, only accentuate my arguments on the role that I believe currently have potential to be played on other class. Here hence, me referring to the 'healer support' class.


Recurring and forgotten class

ArenaNet did a very good job at balancing the different DPS, however my point is that as you aim to always improve your clearing time or be more 'elitist' until you reach a level that is good enough for you ^^ the amount of class you can play in fotm decline. I don't mean that condi class should become 'more viable', nor would I wish so. I think that it make sense to have power class upscale in fotm. The possibility to min/max your class for every encounter through the use of Sigils and Infusion for those who wishes to do so, is far better in my opinion. Conditions class can be played in raids and other game mode. However as it is possible to see above, some class are still very recurring and I don't understand why it needs to be so.

Recurring classes:

  • Chrono: or Boon Support; Currently provide the most boons in the game, while giving a bunch of utility, I think it is very hard to replace this class or create other class which could take up this role, and it may not be necessary.

  • Warrior: or Utility Support; Really good improvement have been done to the warrior class, it is now possible to play either Condi Berserker, Core Warrior (with discipline for quick weapon swap <3 Anet) or Spellbreaker. Although it is just one class it is a lot of fun to play. Arguably Revenant/Renegade could be another alternative.

  • Druid: or Healer Support; Although a lot of rework to druid has been done and that it is now possible to Run one druid with another healer in Raids, I still don't understand why it is still the only viable support/healer option in Fractal of the Mists. Even if spotter is not really relevant anymore and that in order to provide might his healing have strongly been reduced. I think that the other healing class (Firebrand, Herald, Tempest) which are just sitting there should be playable.

And further down the line; a.k.a forgotten DPS classes:

  • Thief: Thief are really good in dungeons, due to their skip possibilities but are completely MIA (missing in action) when it comes to Fractal of the Mists. Condi aren't that good in Fractals as the condi stacks up too slowly, and power thief.... are..... let's say a good way to be kicked from a group. Or that to be viable it would take you such a level of dedication (18 +9+5 power infusion; Sigils for each boss encounter; Fractal God +7% dmg) as a 'default requirement' to even show up in fotm that the effort don't feel rewarded.

  • Revenant/Renegade: I'm not too sure what to say about this class, it looked great when HoT was release, with PoF it seems to have a lot of potential. But is apparently completely forgotten for 5man content. Am I not seeing the number and actually no-one play this class so it would be a waste of time and ressources to even make this class playable or is it something else?

  • Necromancer/Reaper: I initially did not include this class in "the forgotten class" as I remember seeing multiple Reaper in FotM during HoT. But after reading multiple comment on how there are no Necromancer in FotM, I decided to include it. And I then came to realise that if you remove the condi spec from Scourge, Necromancer, seems like an all round class, which seems to be able to do everything but does not belong in a specific category. I'm not entirely sure of the viability of Support Scourge, nor do I think condi Scourge is really realistic for FotM. There should exist a viable Power Reaper build available for Necromancer players. Maybe there already is, (Please do quote and refer me to video or forums/reddit post if there is already such a spec) I've seen quite a few Power Reaper recently in PVP.


Boon and Meta comp

First let's review the possible boons and condition with each class brings to daily fotm and then I'll explain how it is possible to best use those information to make up different team comp and how I think possible solution for each class to be played can be found based on those statistics. I will only look at Level 1 Meta comp here (as described above) and reference back to dT website for the other class, as their Guide are the best I could find so far.

If you wish to look further more into it, you can find the link to Discretize [dT] Build Guides for Fractals here

Level 1 (Meta)

  • Chrono (Chaos/insp)
    Boons: (12) Quickness, Alacrity, Might, Fury, Retaliation, Protection, Swiftness, Regeneration, Vigor, Aegis, Stability, Resistance
    Conditions: (1) Vulnerability

  • Warrior (Banner)
    Boons: (0)
    Boons 2: (3) Banner of Discipline, Banner of Strength, Empower Allies (270 power, 170 condition dmg, 170 ferocity, 170 precision)
    Conditions: (1) Vulnerability

  • Weaver (Power DPS)
    Boons: (4) Might, Fury, Swiftness, Protection
    Conditions: (3) Weakness, Vulnerability, Blind

  • Druid (boon/support)
    Boons: (7) Might, Fury, Regeneration, Swiftness, Protection, Vigor, Stability
    Boons 2: (5) All utility spirits (count as 2) Frost, Sun, Storm, Stone; Glyph of empowerment, Spirit of Nature, Spotter (100 precision, 5+10% damage)
    Conditions: (3) Weakness, Vulnerability, Blind

Other power DPS class still viable Level 1 to Level 2

  • Spellbreaker (Power)
    Boons: (0)
    Conditions: (2) Weakness, Vulnerability

  • Chronomancer (Power)
    Boons: (0)
    Conditions: (1) Vulnerability

  • Holosmith (Power)
    Boons: (0)
    Conditions: (4) Vulnerability, Blind, Crippled, Immobile

  • Dragonhunter (Power)
    Boons: (2) Retaliation, Aegis
    Conditions: (3) Vulnerability, Blind, Crippled

If you were to now look at the support class

  • Firebrand (Support)
    Boons: (11) Aegis, Quickness, Might, Fury, Stability, Vigor, Regen, Resistance, Swiftness, Protection, Retaliation
    Boons 2: Valor (1) Strength in Numbers (100 toughness) or Radiance (2-3) Wrath of Justice, Perfect Inscriptions, Bane Signet, Signet of Mercy, Signet of Wrath (432 condition, 216 power, 216 healing)
    Conditions: (5) Bleeding, Burning, Crippled, Weakness, Immobilize

  • Herald (Support)
    Boons: (5) Fury, Protection, Regeneration, Might, Swiftness
    Boons 2: (2) Facet of Nature, Project Tranquility, Assassin's Presence (150 Ferocity, 33% outgoing boon duration)
    Conditions: (4) Weakness, Vulnerability, Blind, Alacrity

  • Tempest (Support)
    Boons: (5) Regeneration, Protection, Might, Swiftness, Vigor
    Boons 2: (2) Aura, Superspeed
    Conditions: (8) Blind, Bleeding, Crippled, Burning, Immobilized, Chilled, Stuns, Weakness

If you now compare Druid to other support class. I think it is safe to say that only Herald offers some kind of competition to druid, by giving 150 Ferocity +33% outgoing boon duration. Arguably, the Chrono could then run full berserker (leadership runes) illu/duelling instead of chaos/insp and make up for the 100 precision, 5+10% damage loss from the Druid. But let's be realistic here. Chrono can still run a Hybrid build with a Druid and you are almost already running full berserker in Fractals anyway, since potion gives you increase boon duration.

Actually, as soon as you unlock the Druid spec. I think, Anet, should grant you the title 'God walking amongst mere support class'.

Now you could say "Druid is fine and the title 'God walking amongst mere mortals' should be given, upon creation of a Warrior (270 power, 170 condition dmg, 170 ferocity, 170 precision)". But I am leaving this topic alone, because while banner warrior damage is still pretty high, you are still giving up a lot of utility as a DPS class, and end up doing less damage than other DPS class. However Druid by being completely overpowered leaves no room for other support class.

I believe Druid and Warrior gives a good comparison point , in terms of where does the Druid spec stand? Is it a Healing support class or is it a DPS support class? And depending on the answer I believe some adjustment needs to be made. In my opinion, Druid is currently both and this is an issue.


Possible solution

Although there are no major problem with Fractal of the Mists, beside Druid being overly used and Thief + Renegade being completely forgotten. I believe, a solution should be found in how does a team synergise as one. We are currently seeing debut of such thing at Desmina, Sabetha and Dhuum CM with the use of Epi bounce from the Scourge class.

My immediate thoughts on the subject would be:

  • DPS Class: are arguably good.
    I don't see a major issue with Weaver being overly powered for the people that want to do speed clear run, while other power class still fall within the level 2 clearing speed (see "Gap between players" above)

  • Firebrand, Tempest, Herald (healer/support): should bring a damage modifier somewhat matching the ones of Druid, or offer some possible synergy with other class.
    With the release of Path of Fire and all the work, which has been done towards new support class I believe it would be a mistake to leave things the way they are. Amazing support class are just waiting there to be viable in 5 man content.

  • Druid: I think druid should give less boon and not have access to ALL core ranger availability.

  • Thief: I think class such as thief, should have more skip possibilities in Fotm. Thief was/is still great in dungeon and provides lots of amazing skip which increase the completion time of the dungeon, even though he doesn't necessarily bring much DPS. Maybe this is not possible, as it would require too many changes to Fractals and that other class might still be able to do it anyway through the use of blast combo. But I think it's a bit sad if you really like the class and cannot play it in the thing that is done the most daily, at a playable "power class level" a.k.a. level 2 power dps class.

  • Revenant/Renegade: Same thing for revenant, I think it should be playable in daily fotm, because right now, it's level 3-4, while Thief is level 4-5.


Furthermore, I find truly amazing the amount of min/maxing, which daily Fractal of the Mists can bring it's player to do and I truly enjoy this part of the game (possible skip, possible ways to improve clear times, etc...) However I feel like once I am done with the daily clear which the fastest you are, the less time consuming it becomes (this is positive I think), I truly don't know what to do next. I don't know if anyone else think like me haha.

Just some idea from the top of my heads.

  • There could be some leaderboard of some sort, with each speed clear being season based. Like the PvP season. Possible rewards/title could be given out at the end of the season.
  • An upscaling difficulty mode, which could be completed with a different level of difficulty at the end like what we see in Diablo 3 mostly.
  • Some special rewards obtainable through achieving special clear times only. (Even though given that people already know the fractals it might be too easy)

Basically, if there could be some kind of competitive PVE content for low scale party 5man etc... I've played a lot of MMORPG, and I think this game has really a massive potential regarding min maxing etc...

OR....... This is Guild Wars right....
Maybe the 'Guild aspect' could be exploited towards that end :D

PS: I also wanted to make a poll regarding what class do people like to play the most, how they regard fractals etc... but I'm not too sure how to do so with 'Markdown'. If anyone know please let me know.

Thank you for reading

<1

Comments

  • steki.1478steki.1478 Member ✭✭✭

    How does elitism in Fractal of the Mists destroys game modes?

    What does class balance have to do with elitism though? Whats destroyed?

    Most of people will always want to fastest possible clear and they'll take whatever classes can achieve that. Then there's other type of people who just want a casual run so you can join on any class and any build. There's no elitism in setting up your own rules in your own parties.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This again, huh

  • There will always be best option. That beeing said support clases have enormous gap in between them. I think that condi quickness fb is held back by renegade. Give renegade some offensive ultility (like low uptime huge dps boost) and we might see other options. Right now anything else then a druid is usless in raids since you play druid for buffs and not healing so other healers will never be meta

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    Elitism has existed since the game launched with the earliest example that I can think of being the CoF P1 farms. The same solution back then remains applicable today; use the LFG to create the group how you want it to be.

  • This thread kinda all over the place or am I just getting sleepy? Anyway.

    I do play Fotm less due to personal project but everytime I play (using renegade. "unplayable" class). People still join me and finish dailies it in reasonable amount of time most of the time. Pugs are unpredictable for me. Sometimes all "meta" class join but they're so bad. Sometimes I got weird comp like 3 necros but it's end up being a pretty good run.
    Different experience like this kinda make this game mode somewhat enjoyable.

    In the end. I don't really see current class balance as a Fotm problem.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    Elitism has existed since the game launched with the earliest example that I can think of being the CoF P1 farms. The same solution back then remains applicable today; use the LFG to create the group how you want it to be.

    Actually my initial thought when making this post was that, I remember when I was still discovering the game, I enjoyed making new classes, gearing them and then trying them out in Fractals of the Mists, as dungeons are not much of a challenge anymore, and it is hard to find a group so fractals seemed the best place where to 'play the class'. However now, I have learned most class (almost) and whenever I join a 100 + kp group I almost feel bad to the group to bring any other dps than a weaver. Or a fully optimized power class (infusion +9+5, Night/Night sigils, impact + slaying sigils etc...) but that requires a lot of investment in one character + the available bag slots.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    @Takoyakii.2146 said:
    This thread kinda all over the place or am I just getting sleepy? Anyway.
    In the end. I don't really see current class balance as a Fotm problem.

    Okay, but wouldnt you want to be able to play any other support class than druid?

    But maybe my title is wrong as well.

  • Voltekka.2375Voltekka.2375 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Personally, I dont care if people bring meta builds in FotM. Anything works, as long as we do the dailies within a reasonable time frame. Wipes can be expected, too. Power nec, condi engi, heal rev, power rev, tempest, I honestly dont care if people play half well and have basic knowledge of the mechanics. And every day, I can honestly say, they deliver. And it is fun.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    @tim.4596 said:
    Actually my initial thought when making this post was that, I remember when I was still discovering the game, I enjoyed making new classes, gearing them and then trying them out in Fractals of the Mists, as dungeons are not much of a challenge anymore, and it is hard to find a group so fractals seemed the best place where to 'play the class'.

    You can still "play how you want" even T4s. Just join "Daily T4s" and such stuff or open an own lfg.

    However now, I have learned most class (almost) and whenever I join a 100 + kp group I almost feel bad to the group to bring any other dps than a weaver.

    Those groups are different from the usual fractal experience. They are playing the high end. Those groups ARE NOT "discovering the game". You need to make a difference here!

    Or a fully optimized power class (infusion +9+5, Night/Night sigils, impact + slaying sigils etc...) but that requires a lot of investment in one character + the available bag slots.

    You can really exclude that from your equation and don't need to worry. A lot of 100+ kp cm runs are filled with players that also raid and they won't use night or slaying sigils because those don't work in raids. Also, only very dedicated raiders and fractal players have +9 +5 infusion. Those don't make a difference in pugs because the runs are far from being perfect or near speed runs where those stats can or would matter. In pugs you'll barely see optimal dps numbers and as such the stat difference is negligible.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    double post - delete pls

  • Djahlat.9610Djahlat.9610 Member ✭✭
    edited May 30, 2018

    leave Druid alone we got enough knee-jerk nerfs as is thanks (◡ ‿ ◡ ✿)

    Edit: and by that I mean if you want balancing, I think you should focus on leveling up the playing field for other classes rather than bringing druid down.

  • Eramonster.2718Eramonster.2718 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    A very long read on your thoughts about fractal :). Tad long to the point & is the OP a question?

    Just some idea from the top of my heads.

    • There could be some leaderboard of some sort, with each speed clear being season based. Like the PvP season. Possible rewards/title could be given out at the end of the season.
    • An upscaling difficulty mode, which could be completed with a different level of difficulty at the end like what we see in Diablo 3 mostly.
    • Some special rewards obtainable through achieving special clear times only. (Even though given that people already know the fractals it might be too easy)

    Edit :

    @tim.4596 said:

    @Takoyakii.2146 said:
    This thread kinda all over the place or am I just getting sleepy? Anyway.
    In the end. I don't really see current class balance as a Fotm problem.

    Okay, but wouldnt you want to be able to play any other support class than druid?

    But maybe my title is wrong as well.

    To priortize clear speed, you need damage; which leads us to might stacks and other boons. Mesmer + druid setup covered that part extremely well atm. Any competative DPS not necessarily tempest with the duo setup(mes + dr) will be able to clear it within your given time frame. Group wipe is the biggest downtime.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Actually my initial thought when making this post was that, I remember when I was still discovering the game, I enjoyed making new classes, gearing them and then trying them out in Fractals of the Mists, as dungeons are not much of a challenge anymore, and it is hard to find a group so fractals seemed the best place where to 'play the class'.

    You can still "play how you want" even T4s. Just join "Daily T4s" and such stuff or open an own lfg.

    Yes but why would I want to join a T4 group only and take the same time that I would with a fully optimized group to do CM's + T4?

    Actually, I have done that, but I would generally wait another week before doing it again, because I dont want to spend 2h in fotm.

    Maybe I should use video to illustrate video to better illustrate my point, and actually compare those numbers live.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:
    Although there are no major problem with Fractal of the Mists beside Druid being overly used and Thief + Renegade being completely forgotten.
    ...

    • Druid: I think druid should give less boons, which could potentially allow other support/healer class to bring those boons instead and allow the chrono to play a more offensive build. Which might make up for the 100 precision and 5+10% damage modifier of the druid.

    I find it rather curious that you hit druid quite a few times, yet seem to ignore the spec that's a much worse offender to balance: chrono.

    Praise delta!

  • ProtoGunner.4953ProtoGunner.4953 Member ✭✭✭

    Holy kitten, some people must have a lot of time to spare to post such lengthy posts. I like the dedication though.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭
    edited May 31, 2018

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    I find it rather curious that you hit druid quite a few times, yet seem to ignore the spec that's a much worse offender to balance: chrono.

    I ignored chrono as I cant see any class atm that could potentially replace it. There were some thread about how Firebrand + Renegade could replace chrono, but that's two class to make up for one, so I just simply couldn't imagine it. Firebrand mostly do damage based on condition and the current condi + boon duration gear are really bad. So you pretty much have to run commander or minstrel, or seraph, but that's pretty bad imo.

  • Cerioth.7062Cerioth.7062 Member ✭✭✭

    I am confused over the times. My clears for dailies normally dont take longer than 30-45 min with whatever group anyway...

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    I find it rather curious that you hit druid quite a few times, yet seem to ignore the spec that's a much worse offender to balance: chrono.

    I ignored chrono as I cant see any class atm that could potentially replace it. There were some thread about how Firebrand + Renegade could replace chrono, but that's two class to make up for one, so I just simply couldn't imagine it. Firebrand mostly do damage based on condition and the current condi + boon duration gear are really bad. So you pretty much have to run commander or minstrel, or seraph, but that's pretty bad imo.

    FB/Ren being condi specs is certainly an issue for fractals, but apart from that, I think you're seriously underestimating the potential of this combo if the Devs finally did proper support balancing. Being two classes is a non-issue, since they replace the druid at the same time. Also, the currently available gear works very well for FB - depending on whether you need heals in addition to quickness or not, viper or seraph gear do the job well enough to give 100% quickness uptime at still very reasonable dps. It's rather the renegade which has a serious problem in the gear department, having no set that properly combines condi damage, expertise and concentration (and, ideally, healing power). With such gear, some small improvements on FB/Ren's clunkiness and some nerfs to the chrono's monstrously overblown boon spam and utility arsenal, we'd have a competitive alternative.

    Praise delta!

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:
    Yes but why would I want to join a T4 group only and take the same time that I would with a fully optimized group to do CM's + T4?

    I don't know. Why would you? Some players just don't run CMs and I think that's the majority of T4 people. Sometimes I join random 99 CM groups and they are - although a lot of them play "meta" or similar to meta - so much worse than specifically adjusted groups for a full clear. There is a lot of skill difference between players and that's ok. In my static raid guild we clear all wings but I won't take more than the half of them into my daily CM+T4+Rec routine because they are just not used to fast clear or meta strategies. Of course they will be able to if they invest the time that's not the thing here but now take into consideration that there are a lot of T4 players out there that also don't raid and therefore will be less skilled in fractals as well. We should let those players play their own pace. It's enough room for everybody in fracs!

    Actually, I have done that, but I would generally wait another week before doing it again, because I dont want to spend 2h in fotm.

    Yeah, that's why we have different LFGs and if you respect them you'll most likely have a nice experience within the groups you are joining. (I can speak for myself considering the last 8 months with the above mentioned daily routine).

    Maybe I should use video to illustrate video to better illustrate my point, and actually compare those numbers live.

    Why should you? Things are clear to the people here in the forums. It's the player base out there you want to aim for but those almost never listen/read stuff besides ingame messages. And that's totally fine.

  • No mention of the poor necromancers.....

  • or engineers, for that matter....

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭

    Another change of the thread title? Seriously....

    And the answer is: As long as you personally wish. Be it fast and sober or several hours. There is no defined answer.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @Oogabooga.3812 said:
    No mention of the poor necromancers.....

    Necromancer are fine aren't they? I mean you can play condi scourge it's not amazing but it's more viable than power herald/rev or power thief.

    or engineers, for that matter....

    Power holosmith is good and completely playable. It's probably at the same level of power dps spellbreak atm and cheaper to gear than spb as it only use one set of weapon rifle like the elementalist. So you can easily get Night/Night, Impact/Force and all slaying sigils fairly easily. It's a really good class in raid too like Weaver so it's worth the infusion investment. Especially since they introduced fractal titles, you dont need a whole set of +9 +5 anymore +7 +5 mixed with some +5 +5 should do the trick.

    You can check out discretize holosmith build.

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @Vinceman.4572 said:
    Another change of the thread title? Seriously....

    Yes, I changed the title quite a lot sorry. I noticed that my original title "How does elitism in fractal destroy game modes?" wasn't in direct relation to the topic.

    And the answer is: As long as you personally wish. Be it fast and sober or several hours. There is no defined answer.

    My initial argument was that elitism, or what I call elitism, destroys game modes, as it set the time, to how fast you should clear daily fotm. And therefore, how does it make some class unplayable (support class).

    If you take both Open World and PvP content apart. You are left with FotM and Dungeons as 5man content. While I believe Dungeons are amazing and that most class can be played into it, they are mostly aimed towards new player and their difficulties with the release of HoT and PoF became outdated. Fractals of the Mists then become your only 'challenging' option. And for this very reason, I believe you should be able to play what ever class, you want to play in it.

    In my post above, I categorised the LFG into 5 different level and demonstrated (maybe poorly) how level 1 to 3 clear time are "Good Enough" and how level 4-5 clear times are "Quite slow". This is due in my opinion that removing 1 or 2 core class from a comp (either warrior, chrono or druid) affect your clearing time too much.

    Then my main reflection was that, if I want to play certain class (Support: Firebrand, Tempest, Herald or DPS: Thief, Revenant) at a PvE level, which I enjoy, the game content is simply missing. Hence my suggestion that ALL support class should be viable in fractals and that there should be more challenging 5man content.

    • By 'viable', I mean that playing any NON-CORE CLASS in a 5man team comp, shouldn't send you back to level 4-5. When looking at the current playable classes, support classes other than druid seems to be lacking with most, hence my accentuation on Druid and my suggestion to make perfectly good support classes who are just sitting there 'viable'.
    • By 'challenging', I mean that a 5man team comp in order to progress through challenging content should have a certain amount of buff or synergy available from the game–alacrity, quickness, 25 might, fury etc...
  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm mostly doing fractals with some friends. We almost always need 2 random people, but we manage t4s and recs in approx. 45-60 minutes. We'd kinda like to try out cms, but that ain't working well, since we aren't using some meta-setup. We actually have a dps/support-hybrid-chrono, a scourge and me as soulbeast, so for most people, that's already too much cdps. Diversity in fractals is certainly a problem, even more so than in raids.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 1, 2018

    @tim.4596 said:
    And for this very reason, I believe you should be able to play what ever class, you want to play in it.

    And you are able to without having time issues. (reason read below)

    In my post above, I categorised the LFG into 5 different level and demonstrated (maybe poorly) how level 1 to 3 clear time are "Good Enough" and how level 4-5 clear times are "Quite slow". This is due in my opinion that removing 1 or 2 core class from a comp (either warrior, chrono or druid) affect your clearing time too much.

    And that's nonsense. Clearing time in pugs mostly depends on experience compared with skill level. Take 5 scourges or as for me 4 scourges 1 druid that know the levels by heart. Their clearing time won't be very much slower than the usual meta pug. I bet it won't be longer than additional 5 minutes per fractal. Over the past years I ran T4 fracs with pugs without a chrono, without a druid and without weavers - yesterday without a warrior. Groups are only struggling when players are not familiar with tactics/encounters. I even had smooth CM runs with condi setups because those players knew what they were doing. Best example is Sublimatio, I'd rather pick her on condi scourge for 100 CM than the 20 kp weaver pulling 6k average dps. But since you never know whom to get you ask for the best you can possibly get.
    Heck I had a "quasi static" for both CMs + T4s over a month consisting of 2-3 condi players often without a chrono. And we were able to achieve "Leave No Heros Behind" a couple of times although we didn't really try it after already having it.

    Then my main reflection was that, if I want to play certain class (Support: Firebrand, Tempest, Herald or DPS: Thief, Revenant) at a PvE level, which I enjoy, the game content is simply missing. Hence my suggestion that ALL support class should be viable in fractals and that there should be more challenging 5man content.

    • By 'viable', I mean that playing any NON-CORE CLASS in a 5man team comp, shouldn't send you back to level 4-5. When looking at the current playable classes, support classes other than druid seems to be lacking with most, hence my accentuation on Druid and my suggestion to make perfectly good support classes who are just sitting there 'viable'.
    • By 'challenging', I mean that a 5man team comp in order to progress through challenging content should have a certain amount of buff or synergy available from the game–alacrity, quickness, 25 might, fury etc...

    Your "viable" is targeting the top level in fractal play which is 100 and 99 CM only. In the usual T4s everything is viable and a lot is "good" to clear T4s in an acceptable time frame (below 40 minutes). It's way more often the player behind the keyboard that is not capable to execute levels properly. And that also counts for a lot of meta players. I advise you to set up 50 meta groups for Thaumanova only and you'll see that a lot will have problems at Subject 6 for example. The reason this won't happen to 50 CMs + Thaumanova groups is that they are far ahead in terms of skill & experience.

  • AliamRationem.5172AliamRationem.5172 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It doesn't matter all that much what class you play as long as you have some idea of the basic mechanics, can stay on your feet reasonably well, deal decent damage and CC when required. T4 aren't so difficult that you must be a top notch player in a perfect group comp to get through them.

    Just make your intentions clear regarding what sort of players you want in your group when you list in LFG and you shouldn't have any problems. I prefer to play my Mirage if I fractal at all and I don't particularly want to argue with members of my group about whether or not I'd be more useful playing chrono. So when I list I usually give some indication that I'd rather take a little longer than listen to someone else's ideas on how everyone else is underperforming the entire run (e.g. "Chill run", etc.).

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    It doesn't matter all that much what class you play as long as you have some idea of the basic mechanics, can stay on your feet reasonably well, deal decent damage and CC when required. T4 aren't so difficult that you must be a top notch player in a perfect group comp to get through them.

    Well true, but I was referring to a rather advanced fractal community, who do fractals on a daily basis haha, so CC shouldn't be an issue in fact I believe non Meta group often CC more than Meta group, simply because Meta group are too focused on doing their 'rotation' and doing damage to care to CC haha. So it's generally all left to the chrono to do everything. Superior Sigil of Paralyzation on Chrono for fractal is not a plus it's mandatory :D.

    Just make your intentions clear regarding what sort of players you want in your group when you list in LFG and you shouldn't have any problems. I prefer to play my Mirage if I fractal at all and I don't particularly want to argue with members of my group about whether or not I'd be more useful playing chrono. So when I list I usually give some indication that I'd rather take a little longer than listen to someone else's ideas on how everyone else is underperforming the entire run (e.g. "Chill run", etc.).

    I like your spirit, but I wouldn't have the patience to do such runs :).

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    And for this very reason, I believe you should be able to play what ever class, you want to play in it.


    And you are able to without having time issues. (reason read below)

    I can't really come to agree with this and will explain below.

    In my post above, I categorised the LFG into 5 different level and demonstrated (maybe poorly) how level 1 to 3 clear time are "Good Enough" and how level 4-5 clear times are "Quite slow". This is due in my opinion that removing 1 or 2 core class from a comp (either warrior, chrono or druid) affect your clearing time too much.


    And that's nonsense. Clearing time in pugs mostly depends on experience compared with skill level. Take 5 scourges or as for me 4 scourges 1 druid that know the levels by heart. Their clearing time won't be very much slower than the usual meta pug. I bet it won't be longer than additional 5 minutes per fractal. Over the past years I ran T4 fracs with pugs without a chrono, without a druid and without weavers - yesterday without a warrior. Groups are only struggling when players are not familiar with tactics/encounters. I even had smooth CM runs with condi setups because those players knew what they were doing. Best example is Sublimatio, I'd rather pick her on condi scourge for 100 CM than the 20 kp weaver pulling 6k average dps. But since you never know whom to get you ask for the best you can possibly get.
    Heck I had a "quasi static" for both CMs + T4s over a month consisting of 2-3 condi players often without a chrono. And we were able to achieve "Leave No Heros Behind" a couple of times although we didn't really try it after already having it.

    Well, 4 scourges and 1 druid, would be fine in my opinion, because of how they synergise with one another, and possibly running a support firebrand instead of a druid might even be better. But this might be the only scenario allowing such things. Support/boon Firebrand can provide up to 11 boons on his own and 4 different conditions, so since you'd be lacking quickness from removing the chrono, it would be better than the druid; 100 precision and 5+10% damage modifier.

    But you would have to test this against:
    -Chrono, Warrior, Druid and 2x Scourge
    -Chrono, Warrior, 3 Scourge

    However this 4 scourges comp because of epi bounce synergise well, but I don't think you could say the same of let's say 4 random condition class without quickness and alacrity, it would just be awful to play. And warrior add (270 power, 170 condition dmg, 170 ferocity, 170 precision), so I can't really imagine a group going through main boss of the fractals without those. And as GW2 has demonstrated, higher damage makes everything easier, because it allows you to shorten boss fights (less mechanics to dodge) and in some cases even skip boss mechanics altogether.
    For instance on the 2nd boss of 99CM if you have two weaver in your group and pre-stack 25 Might, you are able to skip the add spawn entirely. So.... no need to do dodge, no chance to spawn add, generally he won't even have time to spawn poison and you have already divided your chance of wiping by 50%.

    Your "viable" is targeting the top level in fractal play which is 100 and 99 CM only. In the usual T4s everything is viable and a lot is "good" to clear T4s in an acceptable time frame (below 40 minutes). It's way more often the player behind the keyboard that is not capable to execute levels properly. And that also counts for a lot of meta players. I advise you to set up 50 meta groups for Thaumanova only and you'll see that a lot will have problems at Subject 6 for example. The reason this won't happen to 50 CMs + Thaumanova groups is that they are far ahead in terms of skill & experience.

    For Thaumanova, let's take the example of Subject 6 you actually have 3 different ways to kill the boss.
    -The first way, dps the boss slowly, and kill the adds as they come towards the boss.
    -The second way is to wait for the first block and then burst him down to 0.
    -The third way is to pre-stack 25 Might (you need a really good group for this and your Chrono + Druid should be DPS), you instantly CC the boss and Burst him down during the CC phase.

    I've done all three way, but mostly do the 2nd way. I can't recall running the third one with a full pug group or most of the time if we tried it failed.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭

    @tim.4596 said:
    Well, 4 scourges and 1 druid, would be fine in my opinion, because of how they synergise with one another, and possibly running a support firebrand instead of a druid might even be better. But this might be the only scenario allowing such things. Support/boon Firebrand can provide up to 11 boons on his own and 4 different conditions, so since you'd be lacking quickness from removing the chrono, it would be better than the druid; 100 precision and 5+10% damage modifier.

    But you would have to test this against:
    -Chrono, Warrior, Druid and 2x Scourge
    -Chrono, Warrior, 3 Scourge

    However this 4 scourges comp because of epi bounce synergise well, but I don't think you could say the same of let's say 4 random condition class without quickness and alacrity, it would just be awful to play. And warrior add (270 power, 170 condition dmg, 170 ferocity, 170 precision), so I can't really imagine a group going through main boss of the fractals without those. And as GW2 has demonstrated, higher damage makes everything easier, because it allows you to shorten boss fights (less mechanics to dodge) and in some cases even skip boss mechanics altogether.
    For instance on the 2nd boss of 99CM if you have two weaver in your group and pre-stack 25 Might, you are able to skip the add spawn entirely. So.... no need to do dodge, no chance to spawn add, generally he won't even have time to spawn poison and you have already divided your chance of wiping by 50%.

    And again you're making the wrong assumption and bring 99 CM into the discussion although we were talking about clearing T4s. CMs are way above average. They are less played than a lot of raid bosses and these are the most challenging content in the game. In T4s it doesn't matter if you have meta, the scourge comp or some unbalanced power & condi group. General T4 fractals can be done with a lot of classes and you don't even lose that many minutes if you have the players executing their stuff properly. They need to know how to lead the elemental/dredge in underground below the barrels, dodging the hammer attack from Archdiviner and stack on him, dodging tentacles in Solid Ocean, throw shards back when loaded, use the special action key at Amala and don't stand in her aoes. If people can do that you don't struggle and you don't have any risk at wiping. The important word here is: "if" and that will vary a lot, of course.

    For Thaumanova, let's take the example of Subject 6 you actually have 3 different ways to kill the boss.
    -The first way, dps the boss slowly, and kill the adds as they come towards the boss.
    -The second way is to wait for the first block and then burst him down to 0.
    -The third way is to pre-stack 25 Might (you need a really good group for this and your Chrono + Druid should be DPS), you instantly CC the boss and Burst him down during the CC phase.

    I've done all three way, but mostly do the 2nd way. I can't recall running the third one with a full pug group or most of the time if we tried it failed.

    What has that to do with my statement? Who cares about the different ways? Btw. the 2nd way is the most often used method in CM and usual T4 groups but some can do the third way. And no, you don't need a dps druid. You need rng luck that is to say you don't get his shield as first attack so you can insta cc him. Also that's the only difference between the 2nd and 3rd way. The waiting strategy only is the safe strategy to prevent an unlucky block, nothing else.

    But what I was saying is that there is a difference between usual T4 players and players that are running CMs + T4s because these are two completely different groups otherwise we would only see CM + T4 LFGs and not both. Obviously CM players are more experienced and skilled than most of the people running T4s only.
    And yeah, if you are skilled enough you will prefer the CM groups. You know they will most likely do the T4s in a faster way than the one without CMs (exceptions prove the rule).

  • Necro no where to be found, lol nice class diversity. kitten trash

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    How long should it take to clear daily fractals?

    • Considering you are talking about non CM T4s, 25 minutes is a good run and 45 minutes is a slow run. Anything over 45 minutes is too long.
    • Considering you are also talking about recs, 15 minutes is fast, 20 is slow. Anything approaching 25+ minutes is too slow.
    • Considering you are talking about 99/100 CMs: If a strong group with one shots, 30 to 40 minutes. With a good group that has a /gg or two, 40+. Anything approaching an hour is too long.

    A group of experienced veteran players who know mechanics, that may have to /gg once during a full run of Recs, T4s and CMs, should complete them all in about an 1:15. If one of the CMs is also a T4 daily, it can reduce that time to a little under an hour.

    At least, this is usually how it is for me.

    The 10 Commandments Of Conquest
    Abide by the commandments or God shalt deliver unto thee a packet of salt as often as thou did break them
    -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/38081/the-10-commandments-of-conquest#1

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭

    The balance issue part was an interesting read. Looking at the META group:
    Weavers - highest burst, allow you to skip mechanics, to turn almost all bosses into a complete joke
    Spellbreakers - high personal damage and musthave offensive buffs for your weavers
    Chrono - most powerful support and utility and a fractal monster with skips, etc.
    Druid - great boons, good healing, good offensive buffs

    Given this list, seems a little little odd that you mainly focus on Druid nerfs. They are the most replaceable piece of the META strategy. I'd certainly pick the Druid over the Chronomacer or the Weavers and simply play a Renegade instead if I had to replace one class out of the five. You talked about other viable DPS choices. The difference in performance between said choices and the top damage dealer is dwarfing the difference between a Druid and the secondary support choices. Not even going to talk about how nobody in their right mind would ever replace the Chronomancer.

    Nothing is particularly hard if you divide it into small jobs. Henry Ford

  • tim.4596tim.4596 Member ✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Well, 4 scourges and 1 druid, would be fine in my opinion, because of how they synergise with one another, and possibly running a support firebrand instead of a druid might even be better. But this might be the only scenario allowing such things. Support/boon Firebrand can provide up to 11 boons on his own and 4 different conditions, so since you'd be lacking quickness from removing the chrono, it would be better than the druid; 100 precision and 5+10% damage modifier.

    But you would have to test this against:
    -Chrono, Warrior, Druid and 2x Scourge
    -Chrono, Warrior, 3 Scourge

    However this 4 scourges comp because of epi bounce synergise well, but I don't think you could say the same of let's say 4 random condition class without quickness and alacrity, it would just be awful to play. And warrior add (270 power, 170 condition dmg, 170 ferocity, 170 precision), so I can't really imagine a group going through main boss of the fractals without those. And as GW2 has demonstrated, higher damage makes everything easier, because it allows you to shorten boss fights (less mechanics to dodge) and in some cases even skip boss mechanics altogether.
    For instance on the 2nd boss of 99CM if you have two weaver in your group and pre-stack 25 Might, you are able to skip the add spawn entirely. So.... no need to do dodge, no chance to spawn add, generally he won't even have time to spawn poison and you have already divided your chance of wiping by 50%.

    And again you're making the wrong assumption and bring 99 CM into the discussion although we were talking about clearing T4s. CMs are way above average. They are less played than a lot of raid bosses and these are the most challenging content in the game. In T4s it doesn't matter if you have meta, the scourge comp or some unbalanced power & condi group. General T4 fractals can be done with a lot of classes and you don't even lose that many minutes if you have the players executing their stuff properly. They need to know how to lead the elemental/dredge in underground below the barrels, dodging the hammer attack from Archdiviner and stack on him, dodging tentacles in Solid Ocean, throw shards back when loaded, use the special action key at Amala and don't stand in her aoes. If people can do that you don't struggle and you don't have any risk at wiping. The important word here is: "if" and that will vary a lot, of course.

    Well, when I created the post, I tried to make it for everyone and include all possible dailies which you may do in Fractals if you wish to do so. However, my point was that: If you remove Druid or Warrior from the comp, you would fall into a level 4 or 5 clearing group and potentially even worse if you choose to remove Chronomancer. That if fine, I guess, if you are doing T4 only. If the players are experienced as you say, you should be able to clear your daily T4 Fractal below 1h. However, you will run into serious trouble if you are doing CM's and the people who may join such group, may not be experienced players, which would undeniably reduce your fractal time. So my point was that, while I'm sure that everyone running T4 fractals have some basic knowledge of how team comps works. That they shouldn't run more than 1 healer/support class, and have a minimum of 2 dps, with another boon/support class, there are ATM NOT MANY alternatives to what you can play in Fractals.

    @ErgoProxy.9074 said:
    Necro no where to be found, lol nice class diversity. kitten trash

    I've edited my original post and added Necromancer to the section "Recurring and Forgotten class" , I agree that beside Condi Scourge you can't really play Necromancer in Fractals, while other class gives you the possibility to play a power class, with the exception of Revenant, but arguably Healing herald should be a possibility, while Healing/Support Scourge is not really. Saying that, I did W4 the other day with a support Scourge only (I'm not too sure how it came to this). But we realised on Deimos, that we had been running without a druid or any other healer. We couldn't kill it boss as we had mechanics and might problems, but I'm confident that we could have. However, it's interesting to note that, he had no problem at all, with both "black kitting" and supporting the group middle with heals. :D

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    How long should it take to clear daily fractals?

    • Considering you are talking about non CM T4s, 25 minutes is a good run and 45 minutes is a slow run. Anything over 45 minutes is too long.
    • Considering you are also talking about recs, 15 minutes is fast, 20 is slow. Anything approaching 25+ minutes is too slow.
    • Considering you are talking about 99/100 CMs: If a strong group with one shots, 30 to 40 minutes. With a good group that has a /gg or two, 40+. Anything approaching an hour is too long.

    A group of experienced veteran players who know mechanics, that may have to /gg once during a full run of Recs, T4s and CMs, should complete them all in about an 1:15. If one of the CMs is also a T4 daily, it can reduce that time to a little under an hour.

    At least, this is usually how it is for me.

    I'd say that's pretty much the same for me, when I join a LFG group. And I think it shouldn't take more than 1h-1h30 to clear everything including recs.

  • zaw.6741zaw.6741 Member ✭✭

    t4: 15-30 minutes? really? with solid, molten and cliffside and some rubbish instabilities you can reliably do them under 30 minutes?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zaw.6741 said:
    t4: 15-30 minutes? really? with solid, molten and cliffside and some rubbish instabilities you can reliably do them under 30 minutes?

    Yup.

  • Kam.4092Kam.4092 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    I do whatever groups, and still clear in like 25-40 minutes. My boyfriend and I rarely get Mesmers and Druids. We always pug, and are always fine. I run support Firebrand, and use this.

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApeWnsADFBjtDBGCBEEhlBCDLDUCuB7L0IaG1KAMtKAA-jxxGQBk7UAAgnAwSV+lm9Hup+AoqEMoq/EA4A49u393D8+7v/+7v31v/+7v/+7v/+7vHA-e

    A lot seem to not know about how support Firebrand shares Signets for Damage and support. You can give 432 Condition Damage, 216 Power, 216 Healing Power, and -10% damage taken.

    Support Firebrand is a weaker Mesmer and Druid combined. It excels at massive healing, blocks, Stability, Might, and Quickness, while doing other support Boons. All of its utilities are usable, and it's very powerful in Fractals. It hard carries through so many fights with blocks, and absurd healing. It's a support build that is getting overlooked at the moment.

    I don't really understand the reasoning behind your long post. I group with some really confusing builds. I saw a Power Firebrand once. We still cleared dailies in under 40 minutes. My boyfriend plays Power Reaper. When we pug we see Reapers too. Are you trying to be informative, saying how certain classes are useless, or trying to ask for buffs for certain Professions and Elites?

    I think the "Meta" is cool and all, but it's not mandatory for casual content like Fractals.

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭

    @zaw.6741 said:
    t4: 15-30 minutes? really? with solid, molten and cliffside and some rubbish instabilities you can reliably do them under 30 minutes?

    These numbers (and we are talking about 25-30 minutes) are only realistic if you have every player on point and the chrono is using every possible portal skip. Almost only in meta performing groups that are also running CMs before.
    Otherwise it's not common and just as well exaggerated as calling out all addicted raiders/fractal players being toxic elitists. Btw. 15 minutes for 3 fractals won't work in pugs and I also haven't seen any static record guild achieving that goal coherently.
    There are some rly short fracs, for example Aetherblade if the chrono knows the skip, Thaumanova is also very fast although a lot of ppl think it's one of the longer ones. At start the chrono can do the heat room before ooze and another player can trigger the door room on the right. After ooze one player just pushes the button there (you let those asuras die while you fight the ooze) and the others head on to south for the last button. Kill the anomaly and gg. Even in pugs this fractal can be done within about 5 minutes. The length of Cliffside heavily depends on the chrono and sometimes also on Xera portals.

    But don't worry on average people need 30 minutes for T4s they are always running in CM groups with 100kp. You still have a wipe from time to time, nothing big but if you play it on a daily routine mistakes are made.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @tim.4596 said:
    Although there are no major problem with Fractal of the Mists beside Druid being overly used and Thief + Renegade being completely forgotten.
    ...

    • Druid: I think druid should give less boons, which could potentially allow other support/healer class to bring those boons instead and allow the chrono to play a more offensive build. Which might make up for the 100 precision and 5+10% damage modifier of the druid.

    I find it rather curious that you hit druid quite a few times, yet seem to ignore the spec that's a much worse offender to balance: chrono.

    It happens for quite a while now. Most people bash druids for their buffs while chronomancer is the real offender and enabler for those compositions. Remove the chronomancer and you have trade-offs. Compositions will never change unless druid is completely dead or chronomancer nerfed. I would prefer the second option.
    If druid is dead you will just see a 4th DPS class with chronomancer as the only supporter. It is already happening.

  • Neutra.6857Neutra.6857 Member ✭✭✭

    Odd, I run with a group that plays condi most of the time. we have one druid, one chrono, sometimes though not always a warrior, and at least 1 necro. Despite typically having a more condi focused group we tend to finish t4s and recs in about 1 hour (less if they are the shorter fractals).

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