Reading the Terms and Conditions For Fun

So I decided to really comb through read the terms and services and agree to it, how ever I decided to pick through it and bring to light provisions that are either real head scratchers, or just frankly look funny to any one that's just a regular everyday person. From my understanding since we all have to agree to these terms and conditions any way in order to have an account to even post on these forums then technically we have already read them any way (wink wink) so it's fair game to discuss our contracts am I right?

Seems like pretty standard stuff so far but then I came across this Gem here

Periodic Payments Related to Accounts, Service and Content – ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, require You to pay to establish or maintain any Account, to use any Service or to use any Content. You acknowledge that if You are required to do so, but do not, then ArenaNet may terminate Your Account under Section 3(b). You additionally acknowledge that ArenaNet may require such payments on any basis it deems appropriate in its reasonable discretion, including but not limited to any per-use or periodic basis (such as a number of hours, days or months). And You acknowledge that ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, establish the timing and form in which such payment must be made, including but not limited to credit cards or online payment services. EXCEPT FOR THE LIMITED CIRCUMSTANCES OTHERWISE SET FORTH HEREIN, YOU ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT ARENANET HAS NO OBLIGATION TO REFUND ANY PAYMENTS, IN WHOLE OR IN PART, RELATED TO AN ACCOUNT WHETHER OR NOT SUCH PAYMENTS WERE MADE OR AUTHORIZED BY YOU, FOR ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO INTERRUPTION OR UNAVAILABILITY OF SERVICE (SEE ALSO SECTION 10). YOU ACKNOWLEDGE, AND FURTHER AGREE, THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, TERMINATE UNDER THE PROVISIONS OF SECTION 3(b) ANY ACCOUNT RELATED TO ANY ATTEMPT TO OBTAIN A REFUND OF ANY PAYMENTS, WHETHER SUCH ATTEMPTS ARE MADE BY CONTACTING AN ISSUER OF CREDIT CARDS OR OTHERWISE, AND THAT ARENANET MAY TAKE ANY OTHER ACTION IT DEEMS APPROPRIATE UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO RECOURSE BY WAY OF ANY COLLECTION AGENCY AND/OR CREDIT REPORTING AGENCY WHEN A REFUND HAS BEEN OBTAINED WITHOUT SIGNED WRITTEN CONSENT FROM A LEGALLY AUTHORIZED REPRESENTATIVE OF ARENANET.

Doesn't this seem like a complete contradiction of their B2P business model, maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems that ANet can just randomly demand a payment from you for no reason to maintain your account, if they ever attempted this I can't imagine the backlash and bad PR (I'd highly suggest revisiting that provision). While I highly doubt that ANet would ever have the temerity or desire to follow through on something like that, it was still discussed in a boardroom some where and determined kosher.. . .Here's another fun item I doubt would hold up in court

ArenaNet has no obligation under any circumstances to monitor Conduct or other activities related to the Game. ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, choose to monitor Conduct or other activities related to the Game. You consent to the foregoing monitoring and acknowledge that ArenaNet may conduct such monitoring, including but not limited to monitoring in-Game communications and Message Boards provided by ArenaNet >>>as well as third-party Message Boards and the like<<<. You also acknowledge that ArenaNet may take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring, including but not limited to action under Section 5, and that ArenaNet has no obligation to explain any decision to take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring.

You see the section where it says they can monitor and hold against you anything you say on 3rd party sites? So lets say you're on a gaming blog discussing something ANet doesn't like, they could terminate your account, suspend it, ban it, what not. I'm not so sure that would hold water legally but who knows.. . .This is in that you do any of these things and you are toast section.

Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;software that redirects communications from any Game or Service; orsoftware not provided by ArenaNet which creates or maintains any communication to the Game or Service, including but not limited to any software that emulates the Game or any part thereof as well as any server that emulates the Service or any part thereof;

I'm a layman here but doesn't that include things like DPS Meters, that's obviously recording data am I right? All these various API sites, so basically this rule right here needs to revised because it's clear that the same rule applies differently to others at the whim of ANet, wouldn't that kind of make the whole contract frivolous?
. . .Here's another one that seems dodgy to any one that's married, with different states and their laws regarding property in a married person's household.

Each Account may only be used by one person. If a minor has been allowed access to an Account under Section 9© below, only that minor may use the Account thereafter. Except as provided in Section 9© below, You may not make any assignment or transfer of rights, obligations or liabilities related to this agreement and any attempt by You to do so is null and void.

There's a funny thing in marriages called divorce, and in divorce you sometimes walk out of a marriage with out items you walked in depending upon agreements reached in court. For example I'm sure ANet is aware of this one since they're based in Seattle Kurt Cobain's daughter was forced to hand over a guitar that belonged to Kurt Cobain to her ex husband. Could it be conceivable that in a civil divorce court, or even in laws pertaining to marriages that property might be shared regardless of provisions in a user agreement, I mean I'm not sure about my state and how it would affect each of our GW2 Accounts but I'm pretty sure that despite the fact my name is on the lease of my vehicle my wife might still have a right to drive it since her name is on our insurance, and basically all we're paying for here is licence to use the GW2 Software.. . .I'm just including this one for laughs, it got a chuckle out of me.

You warrant and represent that You understand the Game sets forth a virtual world and not the real world, that You understand the distinction between a virtual world and the real world;

There's actually a few serious hypothesis floating around out there now that the universe we are in might actually be virtual construct of higher dimensional beings, I'm not making that up I'm just laying it out there. We all might be NPCs in someone else's MMO. Now because I've read papers on that and the concepts are taken seriously enough to be discussed in Universities does that make my user agreement null and void. There are other areas I could get into regarding certain weird things civilizations believe in but I can't discuss those things here unfortunately, but I'm sure they apply to that provision in some way as well (that's just an opinion though, not stating it as fact).. . .Not sure what you guys mean by defend here but.

In addition to the provisions of Sections 6(b), 7(b), 9©(vi) and 15, You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet, any third-parties under agreement with ArenaNet, any parent, subsidiary or affiliate of ArenaNet, and any employee, agent, supplier, licensee, customer, distributor, shareholder, director or officer of any of the foregoing, as well as any person using the Game and any person or entity that becomes aware of Your use of the Game at any time, with respect to any and all claims, liabilities, injuries, damages, losses or expenses (including but not limited to attorney’s fees and costs) that arise under, from or in any way, directly or indirectly, relate to:

How are we required to defend your company, would you have us subpoenaed to show up in court as character witnesses for ANet? Are we required under our user agreement to strongly defend ANet on 3rd party sites? That's worded in a way that is not clear to any one that isn't a lawyer and I thought contracts were supposed to be clear under law (not that any one takes that seriously in court but still it's fun to point out).. . .

This is pretty standard stuff here but it's a good idea to share it any way since angry players often threaten to sue for what ever reason.

Mandatory Binding Arbitration – Except as provided under Section 14© below, if You are not able to satisfactorily resolve a Dispute informally within a total of ninety (90) days or if ArenaNet, in its reasonable discretion, determines that it will not be possible to satisfactorily resolve that Dispute informally within a total of ninety (90) days, You agree that either You or ArenaNet may request resolution by final and fully binding arbitration conducted under either the Commercial Arbitration Rules of the American Arbitration Association or the International Chamber of Commerce Rules of Arbitration. The arbitration shall be conducted by a single arbitrator who shall be an impartial attorney. The arbitrator shall complete all proceedings instituted hereunder within six (6) months of initial presentment. Each party will bear its own costs of the arbitration, unless the arbitrator deems the arbitration fees an undue burden on You and then we shall pay the full costs of arbitration, but not Your attorneys’ fees. The arbitration may be conducted in person, in Bellevue, Washington, through the submission of documents, by phone or online as allowed by the arbitrator and the rules of the American Arbitration Association. The arbitrator’s written opinion (if any) shall be limited to 3,000 words or less. The arbitrator shall have the authority to award the costs of arbitration, including attorney’s fees, to the prevailing party. Except as otherwise provided in this agreement, You and ArenaNet may seek to compel arbitration, stay other proceedings pending arbitration, or to confirm, modify, vacate or enter judgment on an award entered by the arbitrator. YOU UNDERSTAND, AND FURTHER AGREE, THAT YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO CONSULT WITH INDEPENDENT LEGAL COUNSEL OF YOUR OWN CHOOSING REGARDING THIS AND ANY OTHER PROVISION IN THIS AGREEMENT, AND THAT IF YOU CLICK “I AGREE,” THEN THIS BINDING ARBITRATION PROVISION WILL ELIMINATE YOUR LEGAL RIGHT TO SUE IN COURT AND/OR HAVE A JURY TRIAL WITH RESPECT TO ANY SUCH DISPUTE. You and ArenaNet further acknowledge and agree that this Section 14(b) may only be used with respect to a Dispute between You and ArenaNet. Accordingly, You and ArenaNet agree that neither shall attempt to have any other Dispute related to any other party, including but not limited to any class action, joined to any arbitration in which You are involved. Thus, to the fullest extent permitted by law no arbitration proceeding shall be joined with any other or decided on a class-action basis.

Alright so near as I can tell, you better look for a class action because once you enter arbitration you can not participate in one, that's a no brainer by the way.. . .In conclusion I'm putting this here to indicate my right to discuss and share provisions of the user agreement with others that have agreed to it since after all it is our responsibility to read said user agreement am I right?

It is Your responsibility to read, understand and accept this agreement in connection with Your use of the Service. You acknowledge that ArenaNet may make changes to the provisions of this agreement at any time and that Section headings in this agreement are for purposes of convenience only. You also acknowledge that each and every time You click “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You did read, understand and accept the provisions in effect at that time.

Thank you for your time, I had a fun time my self doing more than skimming the agreement and I hope you had some fun too reading these sections of our shared agreement and my quirky commentary which I have only included for comedic reasons!

P.S. - Nobody, well, almost nobody, ever reads a ToS statement before clicking "I ACCEPT", why, because 1. no on has the time to read through it, and 2. most of it is just legalese that the average person wouldn't understand. Comedic purposes or not, you should take into account that almost all ToS are based on a boilerplate(if you took 20 companies ToS and put them side by side probably 90% of the content would be identical) and the company that issues only revises certain portions that apply to them, do you even think the lawyers go over every single term to see which ones should stay and which ones should go...no, they can't do that because the ToS is supposed to cover every possible outcome.

@"Zaklex.6308" said:P.S. - Nobody, well, almost nobody, ever reads a ToS statement before clicking "I ACCEPT", why, because 1. no on has the time to read through it, and 2. most of it is just legalese that the average person wouldn't understand. Comedic purposes or not, you should take into account that almost all ToS are based on a boilerplate(if you took 20 companies ToS and put them side by side probably 90% of the content would be identical) and the company that issues only revises certain portions that apply to them, do you even think the lawyers go over every single term to see which ones should stay and which ones should go...no, they can't do that because the ToS is supposed to cover every possible outcome.

I know, I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the third parties they talk about employing ;D

It seems when ever I see this pop up I think in the back of my mind there's got to be some nugget buried in there they popped in because of a reaction to something that happened in the past. For example remember that fiasco with Spygate when some one reverse engineered the client to find the background running search they used to nail cheaters? There's a provision in the Terms that prohibits just what that guy did, which makes me wonder whether that was always there or put in there recently to nail the next person that attempts to find it again. Or that thing regarding 3rd party message boards might pertain toward nailing people that would say leak Path of Fire on Reddit, that may have been a more recent edition as well.

I'm a student of history so I find it interesting looking through this to guess at if there were editions in response to past events.

@"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:So I decided to really comb through read the terms and services and agree to it

Smart move.

Periodic Payments Related to Accounts, Service and Content – ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, require You to pay to establish or maintain any Account, to use any Service or to use any Content.Doesn't this seem like a complete contradiction of their B2P business model, maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems that ANet can just randomly demand a payment from you for no reason to maintain your account

Yes, they have the power to do that under the terms and conditions. It is unlikely that it will happen, but it covers them if, eg, they want to change the terms of using GW2 in the future for whatever reason. shrug It isn't much different to the similar terms in many contracts.

Here's another fun item I doubt would hold up in court

ArenaNet has no obligation under any circumstances to monitor Conduct or other activities related to the Game. ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, choose to monitor Conduct or other activities related to the Game. You consent to the foregoing monitoring and acknowledge that ArenaNet may conduct such monitoring, including but not limited to monitoring in-Game communications and Message Boards provided by ArenaNet >>>as well as third-party Message Boards and the like<<<. You also acknowledge that ArenaNet may take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring, including but not limited to action under Section 5, and that ArenaNet has no obligation to explain any decision to take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring.

You see the section where it says they can monitor and hold against you anything you say on 3rd party sites? So lets say you're on a gaming blog discussing something ANet doesn't like, they could terminate your account, suspend it, ban it, what not. I'm not so sure that would hold water legally but who knows.

It almost certainly would, especially because there is highly likely to be, y'know, evidence that they had a very good reason for the punishment involved. eg: you use an RMT site, they find out, they ban you, you think a court is gonna take a dim view of that? I wouldn't want to bet on it. Courts are, by and large, "reasonable people" in their interpretations of these things.

Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;software that redirects communications from any Game or Service; orsoftware not provided by ArenaNet which creates or maintains any communication to the Game or Service, including but not limited to any software that emulates the Game or any part thereof as well as any server that emulates the Service or any part thereof;

I'm a layman here but doesn't that include things like DPS Meters, that's obviously recording data am I right?

Yes, you are absolutely correct. ArcDPS exists because Chris -- the head of security at ANet -- and deltaconnected came to ... basically, a truce. deltaconnected agreed not to do a bunch of things, and has stuck to that, Chris agreed not to ban people using ArcDPS. New features (like build templates) involve discussion between the two about what is acceptable or not.

BGDM, on the other hand, broke the truce. It is bannable, the author I believe was actually banned, and so on. So, if deltaconnected suddenly became both evil and stupid, sure, ArcDPS might get you banned. It absolutely violates the ToS, but there is a truce about enforcing it in that specific case.

(The radial mount menu extension, and gw2_hook, and reshade, also run the risk of that; they are also almost certainly safe, but again, at your own risk.)

Oh, and deltaconnected is absolutely clear that this is the case on the ArcDPS website. So, unless you don't read anything there, you know the risks of the tool before you install it.

All these various API sites, so basically this rule right here needs to revised because it's clear that the same rule applies differently to others at the whim of ANet, wouldn't that kind of make the whole contract frivolous?

The API -- web, and mumble -- is explicitly permitted for use. So, the overlays and stuff are just fine.

Not sure what you guys mean by defend here but.

In addition to the provisions of Sections 6(b), 7(b), 9©(vi) and 15, You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet, any third-parties under agreement with ArenaNet, any parent, subsidiary or affiliate of ArenaNet, and any employee, agent, supplier, licensee, customer, distributor, shareholder, director or officer of any of the foregoing, as well as any person using the Game and any person or entity that becomes aware of Your use of the Game at any time, with respect to any and all claims, liabilities, injuries, damages, losses or expenses (including but not limited to attorney’s fees and costs) that arise under, from or in any way, directly or indirectly, relate to:

How are we required to defend your company, would you have us subpoenaed to show up in court as character witnesses for ANet?

Potentially, yes. This is basic legal text, and you will find that in a great many places. The most common use is just to stop people suing over things, but technically it does reach further. The court would be the place to quibble. :)

Alright so near as I can tell, you better look for a class action because once you enter arbitration you can not participate in one, that's a no brainer by the way.

Given recent court decisions, thanks current US government, binding arbitration is exactly that, completely legally binding. So you can't do that, full stop.

You are not wrong about those bits, of course. They are just ... unlikely to be invoked the ways you describe. Could be, but as you say, it'd be a heck of a kitten show if they did. :)

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

@"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:So I decided to really comb through read the terms and services and agree to it

Periodic Payments Related to Accounts, Service and Content – ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, require You to pay to establish or maintain any Account, to use any Service or to use any Content.Doesn't this seem like a complete contradiction of their B2P business model, maybe I'm reading this wrong but it seems that ANet can just randomly demand a payment from you for no reason to maintain your account

Here's another fun item I doubt would hold up in court

ArenaNet has no obligation under any circumstances to monitor Conduct or other activities related to the Game. ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, choose to monitor Conduct or other activities related to the Game. You consent to the foregoing monitoring and acknowledge that ArenaNet may conduct such monitoring, including but not limited to monitoring in-Game communications and Message Boards provided by ArenaNet >>>as well as third-party Message Boards and the like<<<. You also acknowledge that ArenaNet may take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring, including but not limited to action under Section 5, and that ArenaNet has no obligation to explain any decision to take any action, or no action whatsoever, based on such monitoring.

You see the section where it says they can monitor and hold against you anything you say on 3rd party sites? So lets say you're on a gaming blog discussing something ANet doesn't like, they could terminate your account, suspend it, ban it, what not. I'm not so sure that would hold water legally but who knows.

Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to:software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game;software that intercepts or otherwise collects data from or through the Game;software that redirects communications from any Game or Service; orsoftware not provided by ArenaNet which creates or maintains any communication to the Game or Service, including but not limited to any software that emulates the Game or any part thereof as well as any server that emulates the Service or any part thereof;

I'm a layman here but doesn't that include things like DPS Meters, that's obviously recording data am I right?

All these various API sites, so basically this rule right here needs to revised because it's clear that the same rule applies differently to others at the whim of ANet, wouldn't that kind of make the whole contract frivolous?

Not sure what you guys mean by defend here but.

In addition to the provisions of Sections 6(b), 7(b), 9©(vi) and 15, You agree to defend, indemnify and hold harmless ArenaNet, any third-parties under agreement with ArenaNet, any parent, subsidiary or affiliate of ArenaNet, and any employee, agent, supplier, licensee, customer, distributor, shareholder, director or officer of any of the foregoing, as well as any person using the Game and any person or entity that becomes aware of Your use of the Game at any time, with respect to any and all claims, liabilities, injuries, damages, losses or expenses (including but not limited to attorney’s fees and costs) that arise under, from or in any way, directly or indirectly, relate to:

How are we required to defend your company, would you have us subpoenaed to show up in court as character witnesses for ANet?

Alright so near as I can tell, you better look for a class action because once you enter arbitration you can not participate in one, that's a no brainer by the way.

I didn't think about that regarding third party sites and RMT, I just assumed people data mining on Reddit with out the conservative approach That_Shaman takes, or people being too critical and tarnishing the company image.

The Terms of Service haven't changed much since launch...even since Guild Wars launch. The articles you mention have always been included. The biggest change(s) are the new Privacy Policy changes, if any mention is included.(You can use Wayback Machine, etc. to peruse the past ToS/EULAs, if you so desire.)

Good luck.

Periodic Payments Related to Accounts, Service and Content – ArenaNet may, in its reasonable discretion, require You to pay to establish or maintain any Account, to use any Service or to use any Content. Etc etc etc

That was already there back at launch. I remember a thread discussing it and what it meant, either on the old forum or gw2guru.

Most of the legal whis bang magical language is for people like me. They went and made two choya harvesting tools before they finished the skritt set. This is discrimination in the highest order and they know it. I’m sure with enough backlash as this post will undoubtedly garnish, it will be fixed. I’m sure the anti skritt bias figures in there somewhere

@HumbleMoe.4391 said:Most of the legal whis bang magical language is for people like me. They went and made two choya harvesting tools before they finished the skritt set. This is discrimination in the highest order and they know it. I’m sure with enough backlash as this post will undoubtedly garnish, it will be fixed. I’m sure the anti skritt bias figures in there somewhere

Never smart to cross a Skritt, they have very deep pockets and can afford the best lawyers.

I actually did read the User Agreement before accepting. Admittedly I skimmed some sections but I'm one of those people who will always read a contract before agreeing to it (and some times I've been very glad I did!). Besides I have to deal with enough legalese at work (including large chunks of actual UK law, some originally written in Old/Middle English) that I'm used to it.

Obviously I didn't see anything I was totally opposed to, or I wouldn't be here. I understand that it might seem concerning that there's a bit in there effectively saying they could introduce a subscription, but it just means they have the option, not that they actually will. Besides, if they ever did switch to pay-to-play I'd quit immediately so I wouldn't really care what they did with my account. Although it could also cover them for things like the Chinese version's VIP system, or if they made it so everyone had to buy the Living Story releases and someone tried to argue that counts as a subscription. (I seem to remember when HoT was announced someone actually did try to claim that the game had been advertised as only needing 1 single payment and that releasing expansions was effectively a form of subscription, but only on the forum, they never tried to take it to court as far as I know.)

Also I'm pretty sure they have already banned people for stuff they said on 3rd party sites. Haven't there been cases where people have put up Youtube videos of themselves using hacks/cheats/exploits and then been banned for it? I think it's highly unlikely they're going to track down every idiot spamming some MMO forum with "lol GW2 suxxorz" and ban their account (if they ever have one). It would be a huge amount of effort for no benefit and potentially some bad PR. In other words a complete waste of time. (Especially when, according to some people, the official forum is full of people constantly bashing the game to the point where people start wondering if any of us actually like it at all.)

As for the one about someone getting their partners account in a divorce I'm not familiar with divorce law, even in the UK, but doesn't the fact that you have a contract between yourself and Anet over-rule that? The game is technically a service you paid for access to, not a product (weird, but legally important difference). So it'd be like if your ex could take your gym membership or your car insurance. Like I said I don't know but it seems unlikely that would ever happen.

Also, interestingly it seems not everyone is required to read the User Agreement, the European version has some extra sections (because European law can be quite different, some things which are standard practice in the US are illegal over here), and it includes this one:

18. TERMS APPLICABLE IN GERMANYIf You are ordinarily resident in Germany the following provisions shall apply for You and shall take precedence over any provisions stated in the agreement above:(a) You are not required to represent and warrant that You have read these provisions.

It also says that in Europe you are entitled to a refund if you do not accept the User Agreement, which I'm pretty sure is required by law. (Ideally you're supposed to let someone read and accept the contract first, then charge them for the service, but where that's not practical a full refund has to be available.)

I found the Europe provisions interesting as well, makes me jealous.

Anet should release UA on soundcloud in form of an audiobook.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Anet should release UA on soundcloud in form of an audiobook.

If John Lee were the person reading it, I'd buy that for a dollar.

@"Kheldorn.5123" said:Anet should release UA on soundcloud in form of an audiobook.

Only if they give a stern warning to not listen to it while driving.

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:I found the Europe provisions interesting as well, makes me jealous.

I find almost anything Europe does in relation to digital rights to be to onerous. I dislike completely the GDPR.