My opinion about raids - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

My opinion about raids

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  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    1 - Just fake your LI/KP with the Chat Code Generator. That's what I do most of the time as I always deposit my decorations on the guild bank. But at least have a proper understanding of the fights you are about to do.

    2 - I'm pretty sure the training runs are there for people that want to do that: Training... I'm by no means joining a W5 FC that require EXP/LI/KP when I have absolutely not experienced anything other than wiping horribly on Soulless Horror.

    3 - Ah, so you would prefer that if you only missed the last boss on your wing for that day, you would have to re-do the whole wing to try it again without receiving rewards from the first bosses since they are only weekly? Many other MMO's that have raid content do this. I'm not sure why you are bothered with it tho.

    Here you have an example of why experienced raiders end up asking for a lot of KP and LIs: fakers.

    And how does that help them? Unless they ask to show a mini (That people may not have dropped nor want to buy) or a title (that not every encounter have) there is no reliable KP to be shown that cannot be faked. All they are doing is making it harder for genuine people with low LI to get in raid groups.

    I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

    Yeah, omegalul all you want but even those squads get players who can't do things and mess up constantly.

    Ofc everything can be faked but you can get caught. Honestly I don't care if you can pull your own weight. You could be the leader of Snowcrows, idc, if you fake things you're out of the squad. An experienced raider who places a high LI lfg wants high LI players, period. If you don't have the requirements you should not join. Have some honesty and fair play.

    There are a lot of people who think like this. I have accepted a 40li chrono in a 250li lfg, because he was honest and polite. But I will never accept a faker.

    Well, you first line just strenghten my point: Why set the bar so high, if people will just still screw it up anyway? Like I said, it only exclude what can be a competent player that wasn't given a chance due having low ammounts of LI.

    Now, you say a lot of people would problably accept someone under the requirement just for them being honest, but my experiences were so much different that I had resort to faking because of that... Most raids would just be like "no ty" or simply kick the moment I said I don't keep my KP's clogging my inventory. But yeah, there was this one time a guy accepted me on W3, but said "Ok, we'll do Escort with you but not KC and further" and I got kicked before KC without even being given a chance to go further. Good stuff right there... Honestity will only take one so far I guess...

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Cuddy.6247Cuddy.6247 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't consider raids to be badly designed. I've only finished the first two and was carried through BotP (Saul's my spirit animal, I made my friend carry me and I got Saul's staff as a drop on the first run - it was meant to be), but I'd say if you find problems with raids - the issue is likely you have different priorities. There's no shame in that - establishing priorities is an important part of finding satisfaction in your life.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jojo.6140 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

    I dont understand why you would consider 150-200 LI a high amount? The max LI you can have is well over 1.4k already afaik, and you can get much more LI per week now that we already have 5 wings. A 150 LI requirement just shows that you are already doing raids for a few months.

    Maybe 150 isn't high for people who been raiding since HoT, but what about people who decided to try them later on? I currently have only 43LI but I'm pretty sure I can handle my own in anywhere between W1-4 (Except maybe for Xera which I only did twice) and I can even play multiple professions.

    Also, there are 17 encounters currently, which mean that it would take at least 9 weeks of full runs for a new raider to reach 150LI. That if he can get into a raid in the first place because, you know, "requirements"...

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:
    You do not have a mirror in your house do you?

    Ya you know.. because every week a new topic pops up about how us Open World players are such a Toxic community.

    Yup.. we must be the toxic ones.

    Well I can recall the meta toxicity that people place banners or merchants ontop of every chest in existance.
    How about the ones that guild spawn teq 30 mins before its supposed to spawn so it wont spawn on time in that map making the whole event a possible failiure due to map not having enough people or to unorganized?
    Heard about a new one pretty recently placing down 20 cheap magic find food trays at tripple wurn so commanders couldent place down their own.
    So yea open world players got just as many toxic apples just that they arent given the tools to show themselfs and are probabely more spread out.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Turin.6921 said:
    You do not have a mirror in your house do you?

    Ya you know.. because every week a new topic pops up about how us Open World players are such a Toxic community.

    Yup.. we must be the toxic ones.

    Well I can recall the meta toxicity that people place banners or merchants ontop of every chest in existance.
    How about the ones that guild spawn teq 30 mins before its supposed to spawn so it wont spawn on time in that map making the whole event a possible failiure due to map not having enough people or to unorganized?
    Heard about a new one pretty recently placing down 20 cheap magic find food trays at tripple wurn so commanders couldent place down their own.
    So yea open world players got just as many toxic apples just that they arent given the tools to show themselfs and are probabely more spread out.

    The banner joke went out years ago with autoloot mastery and that was a joke., not to be confused with antics of Toxic Elitist, as there is no joke in how harshly they belittle people.

    As for the other stuff, I have Never even heard of most of this.. much less seen any of it... maybe you deal with it, because you are in a raid guild and it's what your like minded comrades act like at open world events?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Now that I think about it, I'd believe that Raiders would pull that kind of stuff at World Boss events, given how much contempt they express for said events and the people that often enjoy them, so, I'd totally believe it's just their toxic nature over flowing into other parts of the game, or anywhere they go in general in GW2 for that matter. I mean lets be real, people don't suddenly stop being Toxic or Elitist because they entered a new zone, it's a character trait, it does not change by the events they do.

    Funny how that works.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?
    Fractals got revisited to turn them into more casual friendly, smaller sized bites.

    It didn't hurt them. Most players just don't care about them. Just like they don't care about fractals and didn't care about dungeons.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @MashMash.1645 said:
    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

    But that was a failure.

    Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

    So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

    Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

    (Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

    I think Anet makes money off of mount skins, not sure how they make money on raids.

    People play the game, stay longer because of raids and buy things from the game store. Really easy stuff.
    But long term goals are out in the current gaming generation. Instant gratification is important.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Now that I think about it, I'd believe that Raiders would pull that kind of stuff at World Boss events, given how much contempt they express for said events and the people that often enjoy them, so, I'd totally believe it's just their toxic nature over flowing into other parts of the game, or anywhere they go in general in GW2 for that matter. I mean lets be real, people don't suddenly stop being Toxic or Elitist because they entered a new zone, it's a character trait, it does not change by the events they do.

    Funny how that works.

    When have raiders expressed contempt for world bosses or any other content?
    They just dont want their content to be as easy to complete sure but is that contempt? ( and hey it was advertised as the ultimate pve challenge after all not just show up wack a mole the boss and earn loot. )

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?
    Fractals got revisited to turn them into more casual friendly, smaller sized bites.

    It didn't hurt them. Most players just don't care about them. Just like they don't care about fractals and didn't care about dungeons.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @MashMash.1645 said:
    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    This game was never going to have raids, and be 'like other MMO's' . Not another wow clone. We all recall the manifesto, and colin , etc, etc. This game was going to be about events and dynamic events and dungeons and story, and you could play any class you like and all would be even - flat progression - and we could all be happy clappy. (lets just ignore elite spec power creep shall we?)

    But that was a failure.

    Anet needed to make money, and make a profit.

    So now we have the current gemstore and raids.

    Familiar, reliable, known. A method that works (as much as we all might roll our eyes). They tried and failed. And that's OK - because that's how you learn I suppose.

    (Disclaimer: I raid so have no real issue with it, but sympathize. The same issues are ones I've seen a hundred times before. Even before raids started I knew they would come and here we are. shrug)

    I think Anet makes money off of mount skins, not sure how they make money on raids.

    People play the game, stay longer because of raids and buy things from the game store. Really easy stuff.
    But long term goals are out in the current gaming generation. Instant gratification is important.

    If this were true Miellyn, then Anet would push Raids harder because it made them money and not have it reserved for a minority.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    No content lasts forever. People get bored of doing the same old thing over and over, no matter how well designed it may be. Dungeons died when ANet stopped changing them, but the concept of them was always fine. Of course people always preferred open world to instanced content, and while more people raid than play dungeons today, far fewer people raid today than used to dungeon when dungeons were in their prime. By that measure, dungeons were far more successful content than raids are.

    People play the game, stay longer because of raids and buy things from the game store. Really easy stuff.
    But long term goals are out in the current gaming generation. Instant gratification is important.

    Nobody has a problem with long term goals, least of all myself. The important factor, however, is that the path to those goals be a reasonable one, that each step of the path is within reason. You give me a 1000ft high staircase to climb, I'll do it. You give me a 100ft staircase to climb where each step is 4ft tall, I probably won't bother. The problem with raids is not and has never been that it's not "instant gratification" enough, it's that the type of content it represents is not the content that a lot of players want to engage in.

    Also, it's worth noting that several raiders in these threads have reported that they don't even have many of the mounts and do not care about the ones they have enough to buy skins for them, so if mount skins are ANet's new cashflow method, then raiders likely aren't participating heavily in it. They would be less valuable customers.

    @Linken.6345 said:
    When have raiders expressed contempt for world bosses or any other content?

    Constantly.

    The prevailing view among raiders around here is that all content outside raids is "trash for babies," and even participating in such content for years could never add up to the worth of completing a single raid encounter. That may be a slight exaggeration, but not remotely as far off as it should be.

    They just dont want their content to be as easy to complete sure but is that contempt?

    Nobody is pressing hard for raids to be nerfed in any way. The proposals on the table are for an alternative option to be provided for those that want to play an easier version. Raiders would not be impacted by this in the slightest.

  • Matiole.6857Matiole.6857 Member ✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Of course people always preferred open world to instanced content, and while more people raid than play dungeons today, far fewer people raid today than used to dungeon when dungeons were in their prime. By that measure, dungeons were far more successful content than raids are.

    Bad example. You can't compare the number of people playing dungeons in the early days of gw2 to the number of people playing raids today. GW2 had much more people playing the game in 2012/2013, because that's when it launched. Meaning not only were dungeons in its prime like you say, but the game in general was in its prime. The games overall population had dropped by then (to a steady number). Not to mention that the population we have now is split between more content to choose from and that dungeons are 5 man and raids are 10 man.

    Nobody is pressing hard for raids to be nerfed in any way. The proposals on the table are for an alternative option to be provided for those that want to play an easier version. Raiders would not be impacted by this in the slightest.

    Fractals.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Matiole.6857 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Of course people always preferred open world to instanced content, and while more people raid than play dungeons today, far fewer people raid today than used to dungeon when dungeons were in their prime. By that measure, dungeons were far more successful content than raids are.

    Bad example. You can't compare the number of people playing dungeons in the early days of gw2 to the number of people playing raids today. GW2 had much more people playing the game in 2012/2013, because that's when it launched. The games overall population had dropped by then (to a steady number). Not to mention that the population we have now is split between more content to choose from and that dungeons are 5 man and raids are 10 man.

    Nobody is pressing hard for raids to be nerfed in any way. The proposals on the table are for an alternative option to be provided for those that want to play an easier version. Raiders would not be impacted by this in the slightest.

    Fractals.

    I mean if you want them to put the raid wings into fractals, I guess that would work, make it 5 man etc.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Now that I think about it, I'd believe that Raiders would pull that kind of stuff at World Boss events, given how much contempt they express for said events and the people that often enjoy them, so, I'd totally believe it's just their toxic nature over flowing into other parts of the game, or anywhere they go in general in GW2 for that matter. I mean lets be real, people don't suddenly stop being Toxic or Elitist because they entered a new zone, it's a character trait, it does not change by the events they do.

    Funny how that works.

    When have raiders expressed contempt for world bosses or any other content?

    I can link you a 70+ page topic that is riddled with it..

    They just dont want their content to be as easy to complete sure but is that contempt? ( and hey it was advertised as the ultimate pve challenge after all not just show up wack a mole the boss and earn loot. )

    And this is nothing but contempt.. Hum.. so.. I guess.. right here right now.. with this post.. and many before it.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Matiole.6857Matiole.6857 Member ✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Matiole.6857 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Of course people always preferred open world to instanced content, and while more people raid than play dungeons today, far fewer people raid today than used to dungeon when dungeons were in their prime. By that measure, dungeons were far more successful content than raids are.

    Bad example. You can't compare the number of people playing dungeons in the early days of gw2 to the number of people playing raids today. GW2 had much more people playing the game in 2012/2013, because that's when it launched. The games overall population had dropped by then (to a steady number). Not to mention that the population we have now is split between more content to choose from and that dungeons are 5 man and raids are 10 man.

    Nobody is pressing hard for raids to be nerfed in any way. The proposals on the table are for an alternative option to be provided for those that want to play an easier version. Raiders would not be impacted by this in the slightest.

    Fractals.

    I mean if you want them to put the raid wings into fractals, I guess that would work, make it 5 man etc.

    pfft why not, now we're thinking outside the box!

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Matiole.6857 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Matiole.6857 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Of course people always preferred open world to instanced content, and while more people raid than play dungeons today, far fewer people raid today than used to dungeon when dungeons were in their prime. By that measure, dungeons were far more successful content than raids are.

    Bad example. You can't compare the number of people playing dungeons in the early days of gw2 to the number of people playing raids today. GW2 had much more people playing the game in 2012/2013, because that's when it launched. The games overall population had dropped by then (to a steady number). Not to mention that the population we have now is split between more content to choose from and that dungeons are 5 man and raids are 10 man.

    Nobody is pressing hard for raids to be nerfed in any way. The proposals on the table are for an alternative option to be provided for those that want to play an easier version. Raiders would not be impacted by this in the slightest.

    Fractals.

    I mean if you want them to put the raid wings into fractals, I guess that would work, make it 5 man etc.

    pfft why not, now we're thinking outside the box!

    That’s where I live friend, nothing can contain me.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Matiole.6857 said:
    Bad example. You can't compare the number of people playing dungeons in the early days of gw2 to the number of people playing raids today. GW2 had much more people playing the game in 2012/2013, because that's when it launched.

    I think even adjusted for total player populations, more people were playing dungeons in their prime than raid today. While some of those players might not have been satisfied with the difficulty, there were also plenty who thought the difficulty was just fine, and have since not been doing any raiding at all because it's harder.

    Fractals.

    There is not currently a Spirit Vale Fractal, and creating one would be far more work than any easy mode raid proposal. Fractals are not a meaningful suggestion in this context.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time.
    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Can you put off your rose-colored glasses? During the dungeon days elitism was way worse than it was ever in raids.

    Nothing changed. Supporter were already present before HoT (Mesmer says hi). You could also build dedicated healers (base elementalist was pretty good at it with blasts and waterfields). The only thing that got added was a dedicated aggro mechanic. Everything else was already present just not used as much as it is now.

    Bless launched as it was to be expected if you had followed it beforehand. Typical asian cash grab.

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    If this were true Miellyn, then Anet would push Raids harder because it made them money and not have it reserved for a minority.

    No. This game doesn't revolve around instanced content. Why should they push something hard most people are not interested in anyway? Dungeons, fractals, raids. All niche content and was never for the majority in GW2. But you asked how raids earn money and this is the answer.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception).

    Really? I never did one of those. In my experience bosses would take at least a minute or two to die. Now, most of their skills were weak enough that they wouldn't likely kill you, but they would at least get them off.

    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Raids take longer to acquire the target rewards, and also they keep adding new ones over time, so there's always relatively new content to chase. All but one of the dungeon wings were around since launch.

    Can you put off your rose-colored glasses? During the dungeon days elitism was way worse than it was ever in raids.

    Lol, no. You would get some elitist groups, sure, but they were the exception, not the norm, and you could always find a non-elitist group and succeed in the content with that group. In raids the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

    No. This game doesn't revolve around instanced content. Why should they push something hard most people are not interested in anyway? Dungeons, fractals, raids. All niche content and was never for the majority in GW2. But you asked how raids earn money and this is the answer.

    If that's true, then why lock the most advanced armor in the game behind such a mode? Shouldn't it be someplace that most players would enjoy and are meant to explore?

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:
    Can we please stop with the ridiculous insults getting thrown around. People are not divided in raiders and non raiders.

    It's shorthand. It's easier than saying "people who raid regularly" and "people who do not raid." Yes, there are some gray areas, and beliefs differ within those groups, but there are some relatively broad consensus within those bodies.

    playing raids doesn't make you toxic and playing Open world player doesn't automatically make you a saint.

    True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders also seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders also seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP.

    I got PTSD from pvp after grinding out the pvp Legendary Armor. Here’s to better mental health.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception).

    Really? I never did one of those. In my experience bosses would take at least a minute or two to die. Now, most of their skills were weak enough that they wouldn't likely kill you, but they would at least get them off.

    >
    Your experience is not the same as for people raids are aimed for. And they killed everything in seconds without them responding. You are not the target audience for content you need to pay attention, we already had that.

    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Raids take longer to acquire the target rewards, and also they keep adding new ones over time, so there's always relatively new content to chase. All but one of the dungeon wings were around since launch.

    They are already longer alive than dungeons ever were with less content dungeons had to release. That tells you something about replayability of difficulty content. Many people play them since release and have all rewards.

    Can you put off your rose-colored glasses? During the dungeon days elitism was way worse than it was ever in raids.

    Lol, no. You would get some elitist groups, sure, but they were the exception, not the norm, and you could always find a non-elitist group and succeed in the content with that group. In raids the two concepts are mutually exclusive.

    No they are not. Your average non-experienced group never completed Arah in the first time they tried it.
    People are not elitists because they don't want to play with you.

    No. This game doesn't revolve around instanced content. Why should they push something hard most people are not interested in anyway? Dungeons, fractals, raids. All niche content and was never for the majority in GW2. But you asked how raids earn money and this is the answer.

    If that's true, then why lock the most advanced armor in the game behind such a mode? Shouldn't it be someplace that most players would enjoy and are meant to explore?

    Legendary items are still niche (and also available in WvW and sPvP). We had this like 100 times already. Most people wouldn't aquire the skins even if they were in open world. You are not most players.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders also seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP.

    According to posts in this thread it's the other way around. Only anti-raid people are toxic :)

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    Every PvE content would die if its rewards got nerfed to the point of not being worth your time. This point is moot and it proves nothing. And no, raids will/did not fail just as quickly. They are still around, still played, people make Discord communities about raiding, their LFG is always busy. But most importantly - they keep getting developed.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Your experience is not the same as for people raids are aimed for. And they killed everything in seconds without them responding. You are not the target audience for content you need to pay attention, we already had that.

    See, and that difference in experiences is why an easy mode is needed, to provide an experience that is enjoyable for those other players.

    No they are not. Your average non-experienced group never completed Arah in the first time they tried it.
    People are not elitists because they don't want to play with you.

    I don't know, I did, maybe that was unusual? And yes, "not wanting to play with others they consider 'lesser'" is, by definition, "elitist."

    I do agree that a certain degree of elitism is justified when content punishes being accepting of less capable players, which is why there needs to be a version that doesn't have such requirements.

    Legendary items are still niche (and also available in WvW and sPvP). We had this like 100 times already. Most people wouldn't aquire the skins even if they were in open world. You are not most players.

    According to Efficiency, 75% of long-time players have at least one Legendary Weapon, while only 20% have armor. I'm not saying that everyone has Legendary weapons, but they are at least a goal that can reasonably be pursued by those that want them. The same cannot be said for Envoy armor.

    @NotOverlyCheesy.9427 said:
    Those raiders sure are toxic and elitist for providing their time to newcomers via training runs so everyone could be able to experience the content. /endsarcasm

    They are if they insist that this should be the only way players should be able to experience raids or earn the rewards, whether those players enjoy that experience or not.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders also seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP.

    According to posts in this thread it's the other way around. Only anti-raid people are toxic :)

    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Your experience is not the same as for people raids are aimed for. And they killed everything in seconds without them responding. You are not the target audience for content you need to pay attention, we already had that.

    See, and that difference in experiences is why an easy mode is needed, to provide an experience that is enjoyable for those other players.

    No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

    No they are not. Your average non-experienced group never completed Arah in the first time they tried it.
    People are not elitists because they don't want to play with you.

    I don't know, I did, maybe that was unusual? And yes, "not wanting to play with others they consider 'lesser'" is, by definition, "elitist."

    I do agree that a certain degree of elitism is justified when content punishes being accepting of less capable players, which is why there needs to be a version that doesn't have such requirements.

    Maybe you got carried by more experienced people? Ever thought of that?

    Legendary items are still niche (and also available in WvW and sPvP). We had this like 100 times already. Most people wouldn't aquire the skins even if they were in open world. You are not most players.

    According to Efficiency, 75% of long-time players have at least one Legendary Weapon, while only 20% have armor. I'm not saying that everyone has Legendary weapons, but they are at least a goal that can reasonably be pursued by those that want them. The same cannot be said for Envoy armor.

    And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable. Your point was exactly? Also 4000h+ is not only a long-time player. That's around 2h per day since release. That is not casual.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wrong thread.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

    No.

    Or, to elaborate a bit, it does happen in games with gear treadmill where the powercreep trivializes the challenge. Since GW2 does not have this, it doesn't happen here.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

    No.

    I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

    No.

    I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

    Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

    No.

    I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

    Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it.

    I can agree with you on that.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

    No.

    I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

    Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it.

    It just seems like insecurities on both sides of the table.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

    Both failed in some ways, just in different ways. You view it the way you do because the way dungeons failed was in a way that matters to you, while the way raids failed does not matter to you.

    Maybe you got carried by more experienced people? Ever thought of that?

    No, I was last man standing in parts.

    And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable.

    A legendary backpiece? Is there even in one in PvE?

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    I'm not trying to nullify anything. Everythign that anyone has earned, I expect them to get to keep.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement. They did that the instant they allowed raid-selling to exist. Adding an easy mode would in no way diminish the "token of achievement" aspect that it currently has.

    Again though, I fully respect the devs adding some other "token of acheivement" aspect, like the "Twicetold Legend" title.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

    Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

    Both failed in some ways, just in different ways. You view it the way you do because the way dungeons failed was in a way that matters to you, while the way raids failed does not matter to you.

    No. I see it that way because the game was advertised this way.

    And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable.

    A legendary backpiece? Is there even in one in PvE?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum
    Do you even play the game?

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

    Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

    Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    No. You see why dungeons failed to provide an actual challenge. We don't need an easy mode as raids are what dungeons were supposed to be. Dungeons failed, not raids.

    Both failed in some ways, just in different ways. You view it the way you do because the way dungeons failed was in a way that matters to you, while the way raids failed does not matter to you.

    No. I see it that way because the game was advertised this way.

    And only 20% got a backpiece despite being way longer obtainable.

    A legendary backpiece? Is there even in one in PvE?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum
    Do you even play the game?

    Psht, that's Fractals. I'm talking actual PvE.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

    Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

    Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

    That's arbitrary and subjective.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Fractals are PvE.

    Yeah, and WvW is PvP.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

    Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

    Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

    That's arbitrary and subjective.

    It is. It's a game, pretty much everything is arbitrary and subjective, including your insistence that raiders "own" the entire concept of Envoy armor and must be satisfied in any decision made about them. Again, it's a game, there's no point if you aren't having fun. I'm pushing for an easy mode because I would like to actually enjoy raiding, not merely "endure" it.

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