My opinion about raids - Page 3 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

My opinion about raids

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  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Fractals are PvE.

    Yeah, and WvW is PvP.

    sPvP and WvW use a different ruleset with different equipment, runes, food. We already had that. Fractals uses the same as open world (you can't even complain about blacklion boosters, they work in fractals).
    Can you stop the trolling at this point now?

    A disagreement should not be confused with trolling.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Fractals are PvE.

    Yeah, and WvW is PvP.

    sPvP and WvW use a different ruleset with different equipment, runes, food. We already had that. Fractals uses the same as open world (you can't even complain about blacklion boosters, they work in fractals).
    Can you stop the trolling at this point now?

    A disagreement should not be confused with trolling.

    Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling. There is no subjective opinion on that. PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals?
    It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier.

    Whenever I pug a fractal I feel like I'm playing against other players.

    Badumtish

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Fractals are PvE.

    Yeah, and WvW is PvP.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    It's already a generic grind and not a token of achievement.

    Very well, then you have nothing to complain about. Go ahead and grind it.

    Like I said, I couldn't enjoy that. I don't play content I don't enjoy. My complaints will continue until they make an enjoyable mode available.

    That's arbitrary and subjective.

    It is. It's a game, pretty much everything is arbitrary and subjective, including your insistence that raiders "own" the entire concept of Envoy armor and must be satisfied in any decision made about them. Again, it's a game, there's no point if you aren't having fun. I'm pushing for an easy mode because I would like to actually enjoy raiding, not merely "endure" it.

    If it is a game and pretty much anything is arbitrary and subjective, why don’t you respect the arbitrary and subjective view of developers to lock the PvE legendary skin armor behind raids in the first place ? At least respect the developer intent to lock, for the most part, one skin to one type of content.

    Enjoying the raids is to beat a challenge in a 10 man party, not to (mindlessly, to some extent) spam your skills in a quite easy fight like in open world. If it becomes as easy as open world PvE, then it is no longer a raid but rather a glorified dungeon (knowing that we already have some raid encounters that are really not raid-difficult).

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Raids are well designet but you are not the target for them. Its not that raids make players toxic/elitist. They are made for this kind of players. They are made for players which want challange. Every group based part of gw2 encourage elitism if you want to participate at the highest level. Why should I carry someone if I can find a player on same skill level and have more fun (since it is more smooth with him - my goal). The reason why you find more of that in raids is that fights take longer and if one player fails you usualy have to start from the begining so you lose more time from it. It is the cost of harder content.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling.

    Only to the same degree that saying that they are would be trolling. We disagree on this point. I consider Fractals to be instanced content, like Dungeons, Raids, and sPvP, as distinct from the open world PvE that makes this game as sPvP is from WvW.

    PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals?

    Do you play against other players in WvW? Because if you did, that would make it PvP.

    It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier.

    Yes, but I don't do Fractals because of the Agony business. I don't want to have to put AR gear together.

    @flog.3485 said:
    If it is a game and pretty much anything is arbitrary and subjective, why don’t you respect the arbitrary and subjective view of developers to lock the PvE legendary skin armor behind raids in the first place ?

    Why should I? I'm a customer. If there are ways that I feel that they could improve their game for myself and players like me, then I owe it to them to press my case on the matter. The more customers they can make more happy, the more money gets spent on their game. It isn't like WoW where the only goal is to keep players just satisified that they don't unsubscribe. They have to keep players happy enough that they want to give them more money.

    Enjoying the raids is to beat a challenge in a 10 man party, not to (mindlessly, to some extent) spam your skills in a quite easy fight like in open world.

    That seems to be what you enjoy about them, and that's fine. I fully expect the existing raids to continue existing, untouched, and you can keep playing them. Not everyone enjoys that sort of thing though, so it shouldn't be the only option available.

    If it becomes as easy as open world PvE, then it is no longer a raid but rather a glorified dungeon (knowing that we already have some raid encounters that are really not raid-difficult).

    Ok. I don't really care what you call it, so long as it takes place on the raid maps, carries the same encounters and story elements, and provides path to the Envoy armor.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Raids are well designet but you are not the target for them.

    But I am a target audience for the game itself, considering that I've bought the original game, the expansions, and plenty of gems in between. The mode itself cannot be fully successful if it is alienating to core portions of their overall audience. It's like if a restaurant serves a Limburger cheeseburger, and the people who like it love it, but everyone else is driven back by the smell of it, and end up less satisfied customers, you can't call that burger "a success" just because the guy who ordered it enjoyed it.

    Why should I carry someone if I can find a player on same skill level and have more fun (since it is more smooth with him - my goal). The reason why you find more of that in raids is that fights take longer and if one player fails you usualy have to start from the begining so you lose more time from it. It is the cost of harder content.

    Yeah, I 100% understand and agree with that philosophy, for the content, as it currently exists. I'm just pointing out that there should be an alternative, where such issues shouldn't be a concern, and players can just hop in and enjoy it without having to worry about "newbs holding them back."

  • flog.3485flog.3485 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057

    Lol I am not even a raider myself, all I play is open world. I see no value in content that provides the same experience that I can have in open world without having to deal with some of toxicity that will happen, no matter what, in restrictive parties. What do you believe ? You think people will suddenly stop being toxic altogether because the content has been made easier ? Dungeon history does not prove that.

    Why do you mention WoW ? I never mentioned WoW. I could not care less with how WoW designed raids. Here we are talking GW2 retention of players, veterans and new players alike. You don’t retain players if the content is too easy or if you make content that was deemed to be hard, have an easy version of it, or have this supposedly hard content become trivialized (see dungeons again).

    As for the money argument. You are wrong again. Anet makes money with or without raids. I am pretty sure they made good money out of mount skins despite all the controversy behind loot boxes gamble, because if they didn’t, they would have abandoned the pricing model altogether.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling.

    Only to the same degree that saying that they are would be trolling. We disagree on this point. I consider Fractals to be instanced content, like Dungeons, Raids, and sPvP, as distinct from the open world PvE that makes this game as sPvP is from WvW.

    So Fractals uses different balancing, equipment, food, runes than open world? If not sPvP and WvW are completely different. If yes, yeah fracals are their own game mode and not PvE. But they don't so they are PvE.

    PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals?

    Do you play against other players in WvW? Because if you did, that would make it PvP.

    Yes it is partly PvP. But not sPvP because different ruleset.

    It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier.

    Yes, but I don't do Fractals because of the Agony business. I don't want to have to put AR gear together.

    Not for the first tier.

  • RaidsAreEasyAF.8652RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 5, 2018

    "We expect this to be the hardest content we've ever put in the game:"
    "And we want players to spend a long time working together to figure out how to defeat these challenges."
    https://www.pcgamer.com/raids-are-coming-to-guild-wars-2-heart-of-thorns/

    "These raids are absolutely content that involves a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome them. That is the goal; that's who the target audience for this content is."
    "You will need a more structured, coordinated group to overcome content like this, you are going to need to learn how to play with other players"
    https://www.gamereactor.eu/articles/338083/Raids+in+Guild+Wars+2+Heart+of+Thorns/

    "Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat."
    https://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids/

    Turns out that you probably aren't the target audience.
    Raids aren't made for everyone and that's fine. PvP tournaments aren't made for everyone. I'll never win one of those tournaments simply because i don't put time into PvP and train. It's never going to happen and that's fine. I dont know why players want to be spoon-fed with everything this game has to offer.

    Most Pugs don't even ask for ridiculous amounts of LI. I see a lot of 100 to 150LI Groups. You can have 103 LI by now from doing escort since release.
    I've seen so many SH Training groups this weekend.
    I've seen a Sabetha Trainingsgroup on Sunday and joined them. The commander didn't know what to do, but we still killed it. This group only had 4 exp players.
    That group did a Sloth training after this, and they actually succeeded. If you think you are stuck in a training group you, are doing something wrong. Most training groups actually kill the boss in one evening. It's all about you not trying or not wanting to try hard enough.

    If you don't have a free guild spot, that's fine. There are several discord servers dedicated to teach you stuff.

    https://snowcrows.com/newtoraids/

    You want to join a 150LI group while you only have 100? Join, be honest and ask them if you can stay. Most Pug groups I´ve seen will at least give you a chance.

    1. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a >certain content, the more routine you show.

    Fractals kinda do it. You start with T1 and the real experience starts at T4.

    But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's >intellect and skill.

    From what I´ve seen from players most of them wont get it right the first time. Why do you make it sound like such a bad thing. You need training if you learn something new. You shouldnt be offended by that.

    1. "Save Points": you rarely find a group that does a raid wing from A to Z. It's always a certain boss being named in LFG. Who made up this "save point" design so that >people don't have to play through a whole wing in one go? (I miss the good ol' GW1 FoW/UW elite instance days.)

    You often see them on Monday, maybe even Tuesday. Also doesnt this point contradict your first one? Isnt it casual friendly to be able to start at a specific boss?

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Saying that fractals are not PvE is trolling.

    Only to the same degree that saying that they are would be trolling. We disagree on this point. I consider Fractals to be instanced content, like Dungeons, Raids, and sPvP, as distinct from the open world PvE that makes this game as sPvP is from WvW.

    PvE is defined and fractals are the very definition of PvE. Or do I play against other players in fractals?

    Do you play against other players in WvW? Because if you did, that would make it PvP.

    It is also PvE designed the way you like it. Difficulty tiers, extremly easy first tier.

    Yes, but I don't do Fractals because of the Agony business. I don't want to have to put AR gear together.

    @flog.3485 said:
    If it is a game and pretty much anything is arbitrary and subjective, why don’t you respect the arbitrary and subjective view of developers to lock the PvE legendary skin armor behind raids in the first place ?

    Why should I? I'm a customer. If there are ways that I feel that they could improve their game for myself and players like me, then I owe it to them to press my case on the matter. The more customers they can make more happy, the more money gets spent on their game. It isn't like WoW where the only goal is to keep players just satisified that they don't unsubscribe. They have to keep players happy enough that they want to give them more money.

    Enjoying the raids is to beat a challenge in a 10 man party, not to (mindlessly, to some extent) spam your skills in a quite easy fight like in open world.

    That seems to be what you enjoy about them, and that's fine. I fully expect the existing raids to continue existing, untouched, and you can keep playing them. Not everyone enjoys that sort of thing though, so it shouldn't be the only option available.

    If it becomes as easy as open world PvE, then it is no longer a raid but rather a glorified dungeon (knowing that we already have some raid encounters that are really not raid-difficult).

    Ok. I don't really care what you call it, so long as it takes place on the raid maps, carries the same encounters and story elements, and provides path to the Envoy armor.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Raids are well designet but you are not the target for them.

    But I am a target audience for the game itself, considering that I've bought the original game, the expansions, and plenty of gems in between. The mode itself cannot be fully successful if it is alienating to core portions of their overall audience. It's like if a restaurant serves a Limburger cheeseburger, and the people who like it love it, but everyone else is driven back by the smell of it, and end up less satisfied customers, you can't call that burger "a success" just because the guy who ordered it enjoyed it.

    Why should I carry someone if I can find a player on same skill level and have more fun (since it is more smooth with him - my goal). The reason why you find more of that in raids is that fights take longer and if one player fails you usualy have to start from the begining so you lose more time from it. It is the cost of harder content.

    Yeah, I 100% understand and agree with that philosophy, for the content, as it currently exists. I'm just pointing out that there should be an alternative, where such issues shouldn't be a concern, and players can just hop in and enjoy it without having to worry about "newbs holding them back."

    Well if I am not the target audience I am sure my friends that got me into game are. They played very casualy from launch yet they hated pvp.and wvw the whole time. Game was designed for them but pvp/wvw was not. Does this mean they were not the target audianve then?

  • Well they were not the target audience of raids. You are supposed to work to get your raid boss kill, even though the work you actually have to put in is minimal. It takes you about 30 minutes to learn how to do a proper golem rotation and reach about 85% of the Benchmarks. And with that and a video showing you the mechanics you are perfectly equipped to join any trainings group and contribute in a meaningful way. If a person does not want to put in those in total 45 minutes of preparation (if even 45), then they are not the target audience of raids. The target audience of raids are players that want to put in the work at the golem to perfect their rotation, and the time at the bosses to get familiar with each mechanic. If you do not want to do that, Guild Wars 2 offers enough easier content.

    Leader of "In the end it didn´t even [meta]", the semi-hardcore raiding guild with the most amazing name.
    http://tinyurl.com/metaraidinguild

  • @MashMash.1645 said:
    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    Not in the least. They were an absolute admission that the game lacked something that would attract (and sustain) a certain type of player. ANet said as much.

    Plus, ANet was already considering adding raids to the game; they just hadn't figured out how to do it ANet style (and they have said as much).

    "Face the facts. Then act on them. It's ...the only doctrine I have to offer you, & it's harder than you'd think, because I swear humans seem hardwired to do anything but. Face the facts. Don't pray, don't wish, ...FACE THE FACTS. THEN act." — Quellcrist Falconer

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

    @MashMash.1645 said:
    Raids are a curious thing in GW2. They are a tacit admission that the game as originally envisioned was a failure.

    Not in the least. They were an absolute admission that the game lacked something that would attract (and sustain) a certain type of player. ANet said as much.

    Plus, ANet was already considering adding raids to the game; they just hadn't figured out how to do it ANet style (and they have said as much).

    It's also the "promised" content for those that like raids in other mmorpgs.

  • @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    "We expect this to be the hardest content we've ever put in the game:"
    "And we want players to spend a long time working together to figure out how to defeat these challenges."
    "These raids are absolutely content that involves a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome them. That is the goal; that's who the target audience for this content is."
    "You will need a more structured, coordinated group to overcome content like this, you are going to need to learn how to play with other players"
    "Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat."

    Except that is not why raiders like raids. Just like your account name: "raids are easy AF". They are not a challenge for you. They are not the ultimate test for you. The reason raiders like raids is...

    Most players are not skilled enough to beat a raid.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Jojo.6140 said:

    @Jeknar.6184 said:
    I have done all fights except for W5 (which I don't care about nor I ever try to pug), but I'm forced to fake LI/KP's to get in the groups because most of the time people are asking 150-200 LI to do even simple fights like Vale Guardian (:omegalul:). But I can carry my own weight once I'm there, so it's a Win/Win situation for both parts. If I were to show legit LI's or KP's, I would not get a group and that group would still be sitting on LFG waiting a 10th player that can show their "rerquirements".

    I dont understand why you would consider 150-200 LI a high amount? The max LI you can have is well over 1.4k already afaik, and you can get much more LI per week now that we already have 5 wings. A 150 LI requirement just shows that you are already doing raids for a few months.

    Maybe 150 isn't high for people who been raiding since HoT, but what about people who decided to try them later on? I currently have only 43LI but I'm pretty sure I can handle my own in anywhere between W1-4 (Except maybe for Xera which I only did twice) and I can even play multiple professions.

    Also, there are 17 encounters currently, which mean that it would take at least 9 weeks of full runs for a new raider to reach 150LI. That if he can get into a raid in the first place because, you know, "requirements"...

    As you said, 150 LI are minimum 9 weeks. That's not particularly much, especially when even a mediocre group can do a full-clear in ~3 hours. I started GW2 raiding little more than a year ago and currently I'm sitting at something like 550 LI. Concerning the requirements, I can only repeat myself: get a proper group. That may take some time depending on how lucky you are and how well you judge groups you join. But if you are a halfway competent player and put in a bit of effort, LI/KP requirements become irrelevant.

    Praise delta!

  • vesica tempestas.1563vesica tempestas.1563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sarrs.4831 said:

    @Ashantara.8731 said:
    2. Trainings: what fun is it to have to train for certain content in order to qualify for the real experience?? No other game mode does that. Sure, the more often you play a certain content, the more routine you show. But to assume a player cannot get it right (with some directions from the "pros") the first time around is offending one's intellect and skill.

    Progression raiding is an insane amount of fun.

    ^^ for people who like the form of raid where you repeat a fight over and over and over and over and over and over while a raid leader orchestrates you like a bunch of automatons until all the patterns are burnt into your muscle memory. Many of us have seen that and done that a decade ago and are simply looking for more relaxed 10 man where you can enjoy the camaraderie and group play without the stressing and repetition. Horses for courses, but unfortunately there's only 1 course available at the moment at this venue.

    "Any path that narrows future possibilities may become a lethal trap. Humans do not thread their way through a maze; they scan a vast horizon filled with unique opportunities." - The Spacing Guild Handbook.

    Beware the meta!

  • Neutra.6857Neutra.6857 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tasty Pudding.3764 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    "We expect this to be the hardest content we've ever put in the game:"
    "And we want players to spend a long time working together to figure out how to defeat these challenges."
    "These raids are absolutely content that involves a significant amount of planning and coordination to overcome them. That is the goal; that's who the target audience for this content is."
    "You will need a more structured, coordinated group to overcome content like this, you are going to need to learn how to play with other players"
    "Raids are our answer to what skilled PvE players have to look forward to at endgame—the ultimate test to overcome and defeat."

    Except that is not why raiders like raids. Just like your account name: "raids are easy AF". They are not a challenge for you. They are not the ultimate test for you. The reason raiders like raids is...

    Most players are not skilled enough to beat a raid.

    When in a good group raiding is pretty easy, even for the more difficult roles. It is not fun because other's can't beat them, it is fun since I get to play with a group of people over voice chat, and laugh when we do something stupid, or have fun talking about random nonsense, all while playing content that is more difficult then any other PvE content in game save fractals (which I also do).

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time.
    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life.

    Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018..

    Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there.

    Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I'm "toxic" for trying to be inclusive of as many different playstyles as possible? Pull the other one.

    You are being toxic for disrespecting the time of other players. Nobody owes you anything :)

    I agree, I'm not asking for any of their time. I'm asking for an alternate mode where players like me can play without bothering them. How is that not respecting their time?

    Wanting to nullify months of effort strikes me as pretty disrespectful.

    Eh?

    If they provided an easy mode and made the Envoy armor take longer to obtain, that would be disrespectful?

    Yes.

    I don’t see it...

    Making a token of achievement available through generic grind. That robs all the meaning and value from it, effectively nullifying the achievement. How can that be respectful to the achievement or those who did it?

    Doesn’t this happen naturally with time anyways?

    No.

    I honestly don’t see the big deal. It’s not like I’m robbing you of the experience.

    Well, I don't see the big deal of not getting a bunch of pixels in a video game either. But this doesn't stop some people from arguing for months over it.

    If you didn't have such a huge issue with it.. you wouldn't be arguing against them getting it.. for months now.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There's a lot wrong with raid design. The things listed here however aren't among them as they are all community created issues and not content related design issues.

    AI for raids is in it's infancy, same with encounter design. Everything follows a strict gameplay loop with very limited "variance" turning raids into pattern recognition instead. This limits how challenging they can be because it ceases being about each individuals skill elevating to the fights requirements and says as long as you have the requisite pieces you'll succeed.

    Additionally there's a heavy emphasis on creating cool looking mechanics that are unique to bosses but this leads us to having inconsistent skill reactions. Things that should reflect don't etc... It would be nice if they took things down the GW1 route, you can have unique but you need to have them unique in animation only, with them being consistent to their player based counterparts. Put the emphasis on player skill countering actions not just have a sole focus on dps'ing to skip/transition.

    Then there's the arena issue most of them can be described as nothing more than a box. While later fights have somewhat fixed this (Deimos) it really inhibits what design can do because they're too worried about players cheesing something by hiding ontop of/behind objects instead of properly incorporating 3D space into the fights.

    These are just some of the glaring design issues i can point to that make raids not as attractive as they could be both in terms of gameplay and the narrative encounter.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @flog.3485 said:
    Lol I am not even a raider myself, all I play is open world. I see no value in content that provides the same experience that I can have in open world without having to deal with some of toxicity that will happen, no matter what, in restrictive parties. What do you believe ? You think people will suddenly stop being toxic altogether because the content has been made easier ? Dungeon history does not prove that.

    Back when dungeons were at their peak, you would have toxic groups, but you would also have plenty of non-toxic groups, and no trouble finding one. The thing is, when content is designed and balanced in such a way that having bad players greatly increases the odds that the entire evening will fail, toxicity is inevitable and natural to the process. You are rewarded for kicking out anyone who might cause you trouble. If, on the other hand, the content is easy enough to carry that a bad player or few aren't likely to cause the entire event to fail, then players are much more forgiving of inefficiency. If the difference is just "with a bad player on board, we might take 15 minutes longer to clear this," then most groups would shrug and move on, rather than kick and try to find new people.

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    So Fractals uses different balancing, equipment, food, runes than open world?

    Yes. You need AR gearing, Fractal potions, it's a very different play experience than open world PvE content.

    Not for the first tier.

    Yes, and I've done those, but they get boring, and most of the rewards are not available in the first tier. If they made it so that the first tier offered everything the later one did, just in smaller amounts, so that you could meaningfully progress towards "endgame" without having to leave the first tier, then Fractals would be a far more complete experience.

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    There's a lot wrong with raid design. The things listed here however aren't among them as they are all community created issues and not content related design issues.

    All community issues stem from design issues. A game develops its own community, not the other way around. If players behave a certain way, it's because the wau the content is designed encourages that behavior. It's one of the reasons that the general GW2 community is one of the best in gaming, because the general GW2 environment encourages positive player interactions. The raiding community is the exception to this (and also PvP, but I can't imagine a positive PvP community).

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    So Fractals uses different balancing, equipment, food, runes than open world?

    Yes. You need AR gearing, Fractal potions, it's a very different play experience than open world PvE content.

    Only for T2 onwards. But that's not for you anyway. How did we finish fractals before the introduction of potions if they are mandatory?

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life.

    Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018..

    Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there.

    Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops.

    Dungeon rewards got nerfed with HoT release and buffed even higher than before in April 2016 (5g/8 dungeons + more token).
    Dungeons are just dead because they are boring and there are things that reward more. They would have died anyway with HoT release without the nerf.

  • @Tasty Pudding.3764 said:
    Except that is not why raiders like raids. Just like your account name: "raids are easy AF". They are not a challenge for you. They are not the ultimate test for you. The reason raiders like raids is...

    This Account was created after W4 was created simply to mock the non existing difficulty of W4.
    Encounters become easier if you clear them multiple times a week. That's natural.
    I'd think that Dhuum CM was and still is challenging.

    Most players are not skilled enough to beat a raid.

    That's not why I like raids, but thank you for assuming anyway.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    Yes. You need AR gearing, Fractal potions, it's a very different play experience than open world PvE content.

    Fractal potions are a new-ish thing, we used to run Fractals without them just fine.
    Also, you don't need any kind of AR to survive in some of the Fractals (non-boss Fractals), you can complete them with 0 AR even at higher levels.
    Provided you are good enough not to get hit by any Agony-inflicting attacks.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Miellyn.6847 said:
    Only for T2 onwards. But that's not for you anyway. How did we finish fractals before the introduction of potions if they are mandatory?

    The elements you mentioned for WvW and sPvP aren't "mandatory" either, but they are important to doing well, just as AR and potions are important for doing well in the Fractal mode.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Fractal potions are a new-ish thing, we used to run Fractals without them just fine.

    So you run high-end Fractals today without them?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    So you run high-end Fractals today without them?

    I rarely use the potions in Fractals. More often than not they are on the wrong character and I can't be bothered to swap them. And no I'm not buying any.
    To be honest, if I had the infinite potions, which I don't, I'd probably be more careful to have them always ready and use them all the time. But the regular ones? Not really, unless I'm in a sad group that believes using them is mandatory and start yelling "where are your potions!"

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    There's a lot wrong with raid design. The things listed here however aren't among them as they are all community created issues and not content related design issues.

    AI for raids is in it's infancy, same with encounter design. Everything follows a strict gameplay loop with very limited "variance" turning raids into pattern recognition instead. This limits how challenging they can be because it ceases being about each individuals skill elevating to the fights requirements and says as long as you have the requisite pieces you'll succeed.

    Additionally there's a heavy emphasis on creating cool looking mechanics that are unique to bosses but this leads us to having inconsistent skill reactions. Things that should reflect don't etc... It would be nice if they took things down the GW1 route, you can have unique but you need to have them unique in animation only, with them being consistent to their player based counterparts. Put the emphasis on player skill countering actions not just have a sole focus on dps'ing to skip/transition.

    Then there's the arena issue most of them can be described as nothing more than a box. While later fights have somewhat fixed this (Deimos) it really inhibits what design can do because they're too worried about players cheesing something by hiding ontop of/behind objects instead of properly incorporating 3D space into the fights.

    These are just some of the glaring design issues i can point to that make raids not as attractive as they could be both in terms of gameplay and the narrative encounter.

    Consistency is overrated. Fun is much more important, and having unique mechanics for each boss is much more fun. So there... The design is very good.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Consistency is overrated. Fun is much more important, and having unique mechanics for each boss is much more fun. So there... The design is very good.

    I respectfully disagree. If a player skill is supposed to do something, it should do said thing. Never should there be a case where the skill doesn't function properly or fails to function at all because of the way an NPC/Arena is coded. We've had this slowly being fixed over time, but the fact that Raids were in such a state to begin with showcases poor design.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Consistency is overrated. Fun is much more important, and having unique mechanics for each boss is much more fun. So there... The design is very good.

    I respectfully disagree. If a player skill is supposed to do something, it should do said thing. Never should there be a case where the skill doesn't function properly or fails to function at all because of the way an NPC/Arena is coded. We've had this slowly being fixed over time, but the fact that Raids were in such a state to begin with showcases poor design.

    Skills should function properly, of course. But that's not to say the bosses' skills should follow the same rules.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time.
    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life.

    Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018..

    Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there.

    Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops.

    Sure nerf their liquid reward( add food reward so it dont cost food to do them) and make them daily people would still do em.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time.
    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life.

    Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018..

    Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there.

    Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops.

    Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards.

    There's always an itch for good challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

    Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed.

    The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious.

    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • AnariiUK.7409AnariiUK.7409 Member ✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time.
    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life.

    Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018..

    Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there.

    Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops.

    Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards.

    There's always an itch for good challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

    Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed.

    The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious.

    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    Dungeons were nerfed right before HoT (and raids) launched. Pretty much all of the remaining hardcore dungeon community just moved over to raids/fractals as they were newer, shinier and offered a much higher challenge at the time. Basically raids were a massive success for the hardcore PvE community.

    WvW survives because there's nothing else to scratch that itch. Rest assured if they released a new shiny WvW 2.0 then you wouldn't see many players left in vanilla WvW either.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time.
    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life.

    Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018..

    Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there.

    Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops.

    Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards.

    There's always an itch for good challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

    Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed.

    The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious.

    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    Dungeons were nerfed right before HoT (and raids) launched. Pretty much all of the remaining hardcore dungeon community just moved over to raids/fractals as they were newer, shinier and offered a much higher challenge at the time. Basically raids were a massive success for the hardcore PvE community.

    This is so much wrong.. it's not even funny.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    How was it, "this is so much wrong it's not even funny"? WvW quality varies greatly. Sometimes it is good challenge, but I often see it being somewhat one-sided. Which is neither challenging, nor fun.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @yann.1946 said:
    Can we please stop with the ridiculous insults getting thrown around. People are not divided in raiders and non raiders.

    It's shorthand. It's easier than saying "people who raid regularly" and "people who do not raid." Yes, there are some gray areas, and beliefs differ within those groups, but there are some relatively broad consensus within those bodies.

    playing raids doesn't make you toxic and playing Open world player doesn't automatically make you a saint.

    True, but the point many of us were noting is that, for whatever reason, the people that tend to raid and self-identify as raiders also seems to correlate with toxic, "git gud" mentalities. It's like PvP.

    Sorry for the late reply i didn't really have time to answer.

    No the difference is more that in instant content you notice the toxicity more. it is true that the toxic part of the playerbase gets attracted to raids and PvP. This doesn't mean that the population of Raids is toxic. (i honestly don't know the population of PvP well enough to make a claim).

    My point remains that putting everyone in the same basket is just unproductive at best. and most of the time it's quite rude.

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jeknar.6184 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    What's really stupid about raids are the scarce groupbuilding-options you have. The LFG just sucks and LI/KP as skill-indicators aren't good either.

    Define: Group Building Options

    Do you mean by team composition, or you saying the LFG tool is bad? Cuz if you are talking about the later, I think the LFG do it's job just fine, just there aren't many people looking for pugs to their raids because of how scared of taking new people others are.

    The group-building-options in GW2 are just bad.

    First of all, the LFG is working when it comes to Open-World-Content. The LFG just isn't designed for more sophisticated PvE-content like raids or even fractals though. As a squad-leader organizing raids, you can't really organize all that well with the current LFG-tool. It's not like in other MMORPGs where people apply and you actually then have to invite them, which enables you to chat with them first and ask them about basic informations which in turn makes squad-building easier and smoother. Another problem also is the treshold for reaching excessive messaging. Often, I have to relog multiple times to adjust the LFG to the squads need. That's just annoying. Lastly, I can't access the raid-LFG if I'm on an Alt that's not Level 80, thus I'm mostly forced to play Level 80 Characters if I want to organize raids. That's also quite annoying if you want to level Alts or do your weekly key-farm.

    Secondly, this game is rather unsociable by design, which in turn impedes group-building. We have no world-chat in GW2. We have a megaserver-architecture and thus no server-identity outside of WvW. That's a bad combination since you won't have the natural group-building-process server-based MMORPGs (with or without world-chat) have. In that regard, the game is in dire need of something like a guild-browser or at least a decent tool in which people can look for statics and statics can look for new members. The LFG is mostly insufficient for that purpose.

    At least these two problems can be solved - the problem of a decent skill-indicator probably can't. LI won't tell you if the person who joins your squad really is good. I've had people with 250+ LI that were catastrophes at easier bosses; I've had people with <100 LI that knew how to pull their weight. Sadly, with increasing time, LI-requirements will just rise, which is rather suboptimal for new players or player who want to get into raids. ANet could at least implement that you still get guild-hall-decorations (KPs) from bosses you've already killed.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Miellyn.6847 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Sephylon.4938 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    Have you considered that Raids just don't belong in a game like GW2 ?

    If dungeons hadn't failed at what they were supposed to be, the penultimate challenge for pve, then I'd be inclined to ageee with you.

    They were the penultimate challenge for PvE, and succeeded at that, it's just that some players wanted even more challenge. That doesn't mean that they were right.

    This.. Explorer Dungeons were a grand challenge when I started playing, and so much so.. outside static groups, no one wanted to do Araha, so they really did succeed at their goal with that.

    Fractals were a failure that needed to be revised and toned down a huge amount, and then toned up and then toned down.. and.. yah.. still kinda messed up to be honest.

    Why they went and put in 10 person raids, when Dungeons were still doing pretty good and Fractals were always in need of fine tuning.. is beyond me.

    It has and will continue to hurt them tho, and to the new people here from Bless.. good luck with the raids.

    Are we playing the same game? Dungeons were still doing good? They ware abaddoned 2 years before raids were added. The only reason they were semi-alive were their liquid rewards. They died within days after the 'nerf'.

    Dungeons were a challenge because people were unfamiliar with the game systems. The challenge didn't last long. People get better at games you know?

    And that is why Raids will fail just as swiftly, content is only a challenge till the trick to beating it is worked out, then it becomes an easy repeatable grind, making Raids today no Harder then Dungeons were at the start. Raids are only a challenge to people that don't know the mechanics, just like Dungeons.

    And Raids would die just as swiftly if their rewards got nerfed, So spare me the tripe.

    The only real difference is that Raids seems they have more toxic elitism attached to them.. because.. they are raids.

    It was a mistake to put them in, it was a mistake to try and revise the classes through elite spec to make a 'trinity' like game play.. all in all Raids are oa huge catastrophic failure of an addition to this game.

    The only good new is Bless had a really bad launch.

    There is a really important difference between raids and dungeons. In dungeons bosses died before they could use even a single skill (Lupi is an exception). In raids you still have to pay attention or you can wipe. They will never be as easy as dungeons were and they are a lot harder when you play them for the first time.
    Raids are already alive for longer than dungeons were. So much for dieing as swiftly as dungeons.

    Dungeons were alive and being run constantly from Launch 2012 till their Loot Was nerfed in 2016, and still have a following among some die hard players that want them brought back to life.

    Raids have been around 2015 to current 2018..

    Dungeons 4 years solid till their loot was Nerfed., Raids have only been around for 3 years.. I think your math is off there.

    Also.. Yah.. Nerf the rewards for Raids and see how long they last.. I give them a week.. tops.

    Considering most hardcore raiders are no longer gaining anything from the mode. I doubt raids would die even if they completely scrapped the rewards.

    There's always an itch for good challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

    Of course they would die overnight.. people who had full sets of all skins and still had thousands of dungeon tokens left over still ran dungeons, till the rewards were nerfed.

    The fact that you think raids would fair any better is hilarious.

    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    Raids aren't as rewarding as you think, especially if you're dependant on the LFG. You will almost always fail a few times until you beat the boss you're fighting. 2 gold per boss (or 4 gold with Call of the Mists) isn't really that much if you consider your expenditures for food. I get a lot more gold doing stuff like Palawadan than in raids. Sure, you can get some sweet shinies in raids, but that's rather rare, and the weekly MS-cap is quite low, so you have to grind raids for quite some weeks to be able to buy the shiny you desire (example: without exchanging Miniatures for MS, you'd need seven weeks for a ghostly infusion).

    Nonetheless, even if the rewards would be nerfed, I'd still do raids because they actually are fun. Raids actually feel like playing a real MMORPG, that you actually actively play the game.

  • @AnariiUK.7409 said:
    There's always an itch for good challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

    That's true, but raids aren't the answer for everyone. My old guild was tired of dungeons and fractals before HoT and was looking forward to getting some new group content. We found raids to be tedious and boring, and most of the guild left GW2 as a result.

    Raids are not challenging content. They are busy content with mechanics that need to be learned to beat the encounters. That's the only difference between raids and dungeons. After making the initial investment in learning the mechanics, there is nothing difficult about performing the mechanics. It's just busy work. You don't need to shoot bullseyes at moving targets. You don't need to precisely coordinate your skills with other players in order to weaken the enemy's defenses. You don't need to do anything with any degree of precision or accuracy or perception or insight or counterplay. You just need to follow the fully choreographed song and dance of the encounter mechanics in order to win.

    The reason I think raids are bad is that they are full of jarringly random and arbitrary mechanics that feel like they belong more in a platformer than an RPG. (Even worse now due to the accolades and attaboys Anet got for raids, this kitten is bleeding over into fractals and even post-PoF story instances.) I don't want to stand in green circles and avoid red/blue circles while moving around a pie plate of doom. I don't want to throw jumping beans at allies so they can vault from platform to platform while I do-si-do around a weird rotating flame wall. And hey fractals, I don't want to play bullet hell or play catch the bouncing ball. I want to have an immersive fantasy RPG fight where I am using my combat skills to fight the enemy while carefully paying attention to what the enemy is doing so that I can also use my combat skills to counter the enemy efforts. GW1 didn't have any of this garbage. All of its elite areas were real fights that were fun and used the normal combat system. Anet should be looking to GW1 for ideas rather than super mario bros.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @Tasty Pudding.3764 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:
    There's always an itch for good challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

    That's true, but raids aren't the answer for everyone. My old guild was tired of dungeons and fractals before HoT and was looking forward to getting some new group content. We found raids to be tedious and boring, and most of the guild left GW2 as a result.

    Raids are not challenging content. They are busy content with mechanics that need to be learned to beat the encounters. That's the only difference between raids and dungeons. After making the initial investment in learning the mechanics, there is nothing difficult about performing the mechanics. It's just busy work. You don't need to shoot bullseyes at moving targets. You don't need to precisely coordinate your skills with other players in order to weaken the enemy's defenses. You don't need to do anything with any degree of precision or accuracy or perception or insight or counterplay. You just need to follow the fully choreographed song and dance of the encounter mechanics in order to win.

    The reason I think raids are bad is that they are full of jarringly random and arbitrary mechanics that feel like they belong more in a platformer than an RPG. (Even worse now due to the accolades and attaboys Anet got for raids, this kitten is bleeding over into fractals and even post-PoF story instances.) I don't want to stand in green circles and avoid red/blue circles while moving around a pie plate of doom. I don't want to throw jumping beans at allies so they can vault from platform to platform while I do-si-do around a weird rotating flame wall. And hey fractals, I don't want to play bullet hell or play catch the bouncing ball. I want to have an immersive fantasy RPG fight where I am using my combat skills to fight the enemy while carefully paying attention to what the enemy is doing so that I can also use my combat skills to counter the enemy efforts. GW1 didn't have any of this garbage. All of its elite areas were real fights that were fun and used the normal combat system. Anet should be looking to GW1 for ideas rather than super mario bros.

    I never heard of any game with PvE content that goes beyond learning mechanics and executing them... All PvE content will get predictable at some point because you cannot really program a balanced encounter if you are using random variables to everything to try make it unpredictable.

    Honestly, if you want to fight enemies that you need to always pay attention that what they are doing, maybe you are better off doing PvP or WvW than PvE. Players are (to some extend) less predictable than PvE mobs.

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Jump puzzles and mini dungeons, I earn as much in those if not less then in wvw with the reward tracks and loot on kills.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Jump puzzles and mini dungeons, I earn as much in those if not less then in wvw with the reward tracks and loot on kills.

    I have never lost money doing jump puzzles, in fact, many WvW players would do them for fast cash to fund their game mode. Wow,.. you earn as much with JP.. as you do with WvW reward tracks.. can you now imagine how bad the rewards were in WvW before they put in the reward tracks.

    As I said.. Net Loss from playing the game mode.. and no unique skins or rewards. It was rough in the early days, and yet it still thrived.

    Nothing else comes close.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

    1. You spend a ton of money on food.
    2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.
    3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

    Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

    Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

    1. You spend a ton of money on food.
    2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.
    3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

    Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

    Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

    Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then.

    Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't.

    No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Jeknar.6184Jeknar.6184 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

    1. You spend a ton of money on food.
    2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.
    3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

    Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

    Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

    Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then.

    Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't.

    No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week.

    RIP dungeons...

    Ferguson's Crossing Mithril Squire (Rank 5001) - PvP Phoenix (Rank 72) - 30k Achievement Points
    Exalted Kawagima, Calamis Fatima, Hanna Flintlocke, Suzuhara Suzuka, Sally Furious Ant, Sabetha Deadeye, Bjarl of Souls, Lilian Mistwalker, Kelvena Riverstream, Zallha Wildhunt

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