My opinion about raids - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

My opinion about raids

1246789

Comments

  • Turin.6921Turin.6921 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

    You are blatantly wrong meaning that you never really had any experience with the raiding community. Many raiders play and kills bosses multiple times a week for the same reason people play WvW even with bad rewards. They have fun playing with other people and helping them getting their clears. The reward is social. From training groups to statics people kill bosses multiple times a week with absolutely no rewards for the fun of it.

    I am not so arrogant as to pretend i know exactly what would happen if the rewards were nerfed, but the criteria you are using for your conclusion are just factually wrong.

  • Hello, I'd like to weigh in on this subject.
    I played a lot of UW, FoW, and DoA in gw1 with my old guild. There were speed clearers offering kills and bypasses at certain parts. The "elite" 1% that were speed clearers set the community standards when it came to what was viable and where. That said, there was a lot more variation in the classes and builds you could play to beat the content (and not in a speed clearing fashion), and the 1% recognized that. If they were speed clearing, it was stated in the search, and therefor only speed clearing builds were accepted. There were plenty of people, however, that wouldn't rag on non speed clearing builds.

    A big difference I've seen in gw2 is that the 1% here have led the rest to believe that viable =/= best, and that is certainly NOT the description of viable. Anything that isn't posted on SC's website isn't allowed in raids in gw2. Raiding doesn't have to consist of speed clearing, and I don't think Anet is to blame. It's the community of sheep.
    Enrage timers are hardly a problem, so why the rush? Why can't casuals experience this game mode? If we wipe - we wipe. Then we regroup and restart. Same as in gw1.

    Tldr: Gw2's "1%" that sets the mark for speed clearing end game PvE content is toxic for the community as a whole because they spread lies that "this won't work in raids / not viable" and the community follows suit, telling newcomers what their overlords have decided is the ONLY way to play this content.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

    1. You spend a ton of money on food.
    2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.
    3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

    Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

    Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

    Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then.

    Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't.

    No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week.

    If they nerfed the rewards for anything hard or casual the content is going to die. You don't see a lot of people farming frost trolls in Frostgorge Sound for Powerful Blood anymore either. That doesn't invalidate casuals or content for casuals.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2018

    If you want to see badly designed look back at the community reaction to Tequatl and Triple Trouble back on release when they were the hardest things ever added to the game before power creep made them trivial. You had 2 hour waits between attempts, you had to fight server populations, guesting to servers, and the overflow system. On top of never having the same players doing kill attempts with you and no control over the people you were playing with. Nt to mention scaling bugs causing the boss that should have 3 million health to have 13 million health.

    Raids fixed all of that. They're amazing.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I don't think WvW rewards are THAT terrible honestly. You're not going to get tons of liquid gold from it, but it's the fastest way of earning dozens of unidentified dyes, you have tons of bags that EACH have a chance of an ascended item and you always work towards something at least passively in the form of skirmish tickets by just playing.

    So that argument doesn't really count.

    I'm thankful that Raids exist the way they do and I hope they continue to be a nice, optional challenge that is rewarding if you do go to the lengths required to beat them (and continue doing so too)

    Bite me.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    I don't think WvW rewards are THAT terrible honestly. You're not going to get tons of liquid gold from it, but it's the fastest way of earning dozens of unidentified dyes, you have tons of bags that EACH have a chance of an ascended item and you always work towards something at least passively in the form of skirmish tickets by just playing.

    So that argument doesn't really count.

    I'm thankful that Raids exist the way they do and I hope they continue to be a nice, optional challenge that is rewarding if you do go to the lengths required to beat them (and continue doing so too)

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    I don't think WvW rewards are THAT terrible honestly. You're not going to get tons of liquid gold from it, but it's the fastest way of earning dozens of unidentified dyes, you have tons of bags that EACH have a chance of an ascended item and you always work towards something at least passively in the form of skirmish tickets by just playing.

    So that argument doesn't really count.

    I'm thankful that Raids exist the way they do and I hope they continue to be a nice, optional challenge that is rewarding if you do go to the lengths required to beat them (and continue doing so too)

    I like farming PvP and WvW for free clovers.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

    1. You spend a ton of money on food.
    2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.
    3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

    Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

    Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

    Well, given your responses, it's pretty clear you have some weird WvW agenda so I'll leave it here then.

    Regardless, look outside of your own box every once in while, you might find that people actually enjoy things you don't.

    No agenda.. just truth. If they nerfed the rewards in raids, the content would be dead in under a week.

    If they nerfed the rewards for anything hard or casual the content is going to die. You don't see a lot of people farming frost trolls in Frostgorge Sound for Powerful Blood anymore either. That doesn't invalidate casuals or content for casuals.

    Nope.. but I see hundreds of people playing WvW before reward tracks when upgrades cost gold, repairs cost gold, and often after a full night of playing people had to go off and play PvE to recover their losses.

    That game mode thrived even with the worst rewards of any game mode, because unlike scripted grind content (Which includes Raids) it was the thrill of the fight and the challenge that kept them playing.

    But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Zagerus.8675Zagerus.8675 Member ✭✭✭

    I think one of the best ways around all of these issues is to gear up and learn chronomancer and build/train with your own pug groups. I've had several silent groups come together and clear a wing in a few hours or less (some were new, some were bored hardcore raiders playing on their alt accounts.) You help yourself while helping others so it is a worthy endeavor - much more so than trying to deal with people who get an ego over killing a.i..

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    Then go have fun grinding trolls in frostgorge sound for powerful blood.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Love how this convo went into rewards being the issue.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

  • @TexZero.7910 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

    So we've discussed raid rewards and WvW the most here.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:
    Oh my mistake, I must just be imagining the hundreds of dungeon runs myself and others used to do before Heart of Thorns, which turned into hundreds of enjoyable hours in raids. I'll play whatever is fun and challenging, I don't care how much of a reward it gives.

    The flaw in your argument was not that you misremembered your own experiences, it's that you assumed your own experiences applied to large portions of the community.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

    All this tells me is that you were not involved in WvW. Anyone that actually played WvW would know the passion for the mode by it's players from the bottom to the top.

    And WvW has not been Re-invented at all, in fact... beyond some long overdue rewards added to the mode and a reduction in the gold sink aspect, it's the same game since launch. The same cannot be said for Instance content.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The only content in this game that survived with poor rewards is WvW.. because unlike scripted easy to reproduce encounters like PvE.. WvW was in fact good challenging group based combat, and the only content that people played legit for the fun of it.

    If you think WvW is the only thing that people play purely for fun, then you're sadly mistaken.

    ok.. go for it.. name a content that gives a net fiscal loss and had no special skins directly linked to it, that players were passionate about and played regularly.. I won't wait forever for your response.. but you will take that long to find it..

    Uh, raids after the first clear each week...

    1. You spend a ton of money on food.
    2. You gain no drops, no shards or currency of any kind.
    3. You get a few greens/blues to salvage.

    Yet players are clearing raids multiple times per week, usually just for fun/for the challenge.

    Buhahahahha.. yah.. nope.

    I am clearing some bosses multiple times each week

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

    A dead mode would mean no one is there as there is no life in it, yet I have no trouble finding squads in WvW and fighting large enemy zergs and so forth.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

    All this tells me is that you were not involved in WvW. Anyone that actually played WvW would know the passion for the mode by it's players from the bottom to the top.

    And WvW has not been Re-invented at all, in fact... beyond some long overdue rewards added to the mode and a reduction in the gold sink aspect, it's the same game since launch. The same cannot be said for Instance content.

    I tried wvw and it was boring to me. You say there are fights but all I remember is waiting for for commander to order to move. And once we get to a fight it become boring very quickly because with so many players your contribution is very limited.
    On the other hand I dont clear all bosses each weel but every week there are some bosses that I killed multiple times. If I need gold I go to fractals or TP. Raids have very low profit for me but that is not why I do them.
    Some players would stop playing raids with rewards nerfed but not majority in my oppinion.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    Weren't their quite a lot of people saying the gamemode was dieing before the adding of rewards?

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

    You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

    You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

    Oh there would be people that play it, but there would be an exodus for sure.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

    You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

    Oh there would be people that play it, but there would be an exodus for sure.

    Probably as would for any gamemode. Even WvW the gamemode STIHL says was doing fine without rewards would lose a lot of players of they removed rewards

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

    You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

    Oh there would be people that play it, but there would be an exodus for sure.

    Don't think so, but well...

  • @Saint Sated.2698 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

    So we've discussed raid rewards and WvW the most here.

    I think it is because there are also a lot of toxic players in wvw similar to raids but you will find them in pvp too and in some cases in normal pve.
    The core is people have expectations on you as a player in those contents in wvw I have witness how the commander of a public zerg comments the equip of some random players despite such tools are banned from Arena.NET. In return there are 30 players on the map which don't join the zerg in the prime time ~.~

    In raids it is the same but a lot more concentrated form which is not surprising with enrage timer and hard learncurve .

    About LI I also say its pretty bad as a measurement on top of this its doesn't allow players to join even when they mastered the raids. Which in the result means at some point top guild just leeching on raid guild under them by 'stealing' their players. Which won't be as bad as in other games I played but you have only have as source players which came from an unknown raids guild in the end when you lost one in you raids or you are very social train with them yourself.

    About KP's I can only say my bank is full with stuff I need I can make space but I won't be ever enough.

    Raid are really not for that much players how other already said. I'm in relative big guild which is mostly causal around 20% doing fractals but only 2 were ever actively playing raids from 170 players. On the other side when I playing T4 fractals a lot of players have the full mastery points which means a lot of raiders doing T4's.

    I think the best jump off the give players from T4 fractals is by filling the holes between the last T4 fractals and the CM modes of them by adding more CM for the old fractals.

    About Dungeons I think the were more difficult then they are now through the power creep also they have more variants through the paths and were in all the stuff between bosses more creative. Raids on the other hand need more team work and movements at the bosses.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tasty Pudding.3764 said:

    @AnariiUK.7409 said:
    There's always an itch for good challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

    That's true, but raids aren't the answer for everyone.

    They don't need to be. They're the answer for one group of players. Another type of content is the answer for another group of players. Yet another - for a third group. And so on. The game is big, and it offers very diverse experiences. On purpose.

  • Henry.5713Henry.5713 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Interesting read so far. There seems to be a lot of nostalgia goggling going on and many claims are made with very little actual knowledge of the game modes in question. Yes, modes as we somehow turned this into a WvW vs. PvE discussion.

    WvW was never the place to go to for rewards and neither was PvP for that matter. I remember sitting in the lobby wearing low level skins and nothing too shiny (back when you had to rank up to acquire new skins) while I already owned multiple legendaries in PvE and I remember roaming for countless of hours in WvW not even caring one bit about the gold I wasted on food and oils.
    Thing is, any type of PvP mode has that added luxury over PvE. You know... playing against other players is challenging and fun. It takes far longer for it to become stale. Simply winning makes you feel good as you beat another player.
    We still can't deny the impact the updated reward system made. It made the entire thing so much more pleasing to the veterans who no longer have to step out of their favorite mode for almost anything. Even more so, the patch brought in new people in droves. Quite a few of which ended up sticking for the gameplay itself, realizing what they had missed over the years. Getting them addicted to that feeling .

    PvE may be a different story, but not entirely. People play for the rewards, certainly. There is one thing those mostly into PvP and WvW seem to forget, however. Playing WITH people is as much fun as playing AGAINST people. In fact, it is actually way more fun to a lot of players in the community. AnariiUK is right about the hundreds of players doing multiple clears each week. Those in it for the legendary armor alone, those who'd then never touch raids ever again are actually the PvE version of any given bad PIP farmer in WvW. They will never understand why people actually like the content in question and they do not care to.

    As far as nerfing rewards killed dungeons - again, yes and no. Sometimes the fun and challenge comes from improving to a degree which allows you to squeeze rewards as much as possible. How could people not be disappointed about the way ArenaNet handled the entire thing. People had improved, they had practiced, they had statics and scheduled dungeon tours, they enjoyed improving. One big benchmark being the gold/h you could again just to have that taken from them. They tried to send people to play Fractals and the upcoming raids in such a disrespectful way that made people feel like the devs knew nothing about the dungeon community.
    Something similar happened in WvW when they decided to replace everything with the desert map. An updated and better version of what you currently have, bound to be more fun, right? People loved having no say in that matter, right? They obviously did not.

    Progress isn't made by early risers. It's made by lazy men trying to find easier ways to do something. ~ Robert Heinlein

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

    A dead mode would mean no one is there as there is no life in it, yet I have no trouble finding squads in WvW and fighting large enemy zergs and so forth.

    And a living mode would totally need to rework the server system and change it to alliances right ?
    How about before they even go into the above change and why we have linked servers to begin with ?
    How about added reward tracks to the game mode ?
    What about adding WvW levels/Masteries .... Because people needed that progression to play.

    Ironically, having people tell me i don't play WvW yet again. It's okay, i get that you see me post more here than there, but as i said it's a dead mode.
    I remember the days back when we had orbs of power and queue times every day that wasn't just limited to reset, those days are long gone for things not in T1 and what livelyhood you say the mode has is about as artificial as the respirator the mode is on.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

    You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

    Before they nerfed the rewards for Dungeons, people played them for "Fun" .. We saw how long that lasted.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

    Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

    Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2018

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

    Just saying the truth with that one.

    WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.
    Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

    A dead mode would mean no one is there as there is no life in it, yet I have no trouble finding squads in WvW and fighting large enemy zergs and so forth.

    And a living mode would totally need to rework the server system and change it to alliances right ?
    How about before they even go into the above change and why we have linked servers to begin with ?
    How about added reward tracks to the game mode ?
    What about adding WvW levels/Masteries .... Because people needed that progression to play.

    Ironically, having people tell me i don't play WvW yet again. It's okay, i get that you see me post more here than there, but as i said it's a dead mode.
    I remember the days back when we had orbs of power and queue times every day that wasn't just limited to reset, those days are long gone for things not in T1 and what livelyhood you say the mode has is about as artificial as the respirator the mode is on.

    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

    Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

    Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

    Nah, the loot chasers can be found in the Domain of Istan lately. Previously they were busy multilooting Tarir or chestfarming the Silverwastes. Or grinding fractal 40. Let's be realistic - raids are not an efficient way to get loot. They have never been. So to attribute their success to loot alone is a fallacy. It plays a part (which is different per individual by the way), but it never dictates the decision all by itself.

    to coin a phrase.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    You missed the point completely, haven't you?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2018

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

    Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

    That must be the reason why i do at least 3 Fullclears a week. Because i need to collect those sexy bags of gear.
    If you struggle to collect bags PM me. Ill gladly share my 6k bags of gear with you.

    Thanks! My Screen name is included at the top of my every post, mail me as much as you like.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

    Yes every person that plays would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor. Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.
    The only difference is probably we wouldn't have as many sellers, and buyers, if there was no Envoy Armor in Raids.

    WVW has people playing because it's brain dead easy to get any of its rewards, it's more comparable to the general open world in difficulty (outside meta events) and moving around in huge blobs pressing 1 on your keyboard is more than enough to get rewarded. Especially if you are on the server that has the numerical advantage or you go for PVD ignoring other players and only taking un-defended objectives for karma trains. Let's not pretend that playing in WVW requires any kind of skill or experience.

    There was (is? sorry haven't been following it) a GvG scene where the actual good WVW players were fighting in more "equal" terms, that's where skill came into effect. Unfortunately Arenanet didn't endorse the "mode" only gave WVW guilds a place to fight (the arena in OS) but nothing official about it. Maybe sometime in the future they will endorse it and the word "skill" can be attributed to WVW.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 7, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

    Yes every person that plays would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor. Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.
    The only difference is probably we wouldn't have as many sellers, and buyers, if there was no Envoy Armor in Raids.

    That’s presuming a lot, MADD, plus you are using absolutes, EVERY person, really? Are you sure about that?

    Plus, I’ll take it back Raids isn’t a dead mode, it’s in a vegetative state on life support, with its family members coming to check in on them every 6 to 8 months.

  • Badcat.7320Badcat.7320 Member ✭✭

    @Ashantara.8731 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

    And how so? I am a fast learner, I adapt quickly, and I enjoy a good challenge. I am just sick and tired of having to be "elite" by providing proof of my skill through hours spent in said content. There must be a way for casual raiders to have a place in this type of content as well.

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:
    2) Amazing, someone complaining that there are offers for training runs in the most challenging PvE content in this game.

    I wasn't complaining about training runs, I was complaining that - if you don't have the "proper" LI and KP - you are forced to always join training runs, which gets boring.

    Then you get stuck in this phase. Could be good enough to beat the boss but rest of squad is not. Then never gain LIs and KPs.. It is not that raid is made for best players. Raid is made for obsessed player and not casual player.

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

    Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

    Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

    Dude if you want to make any progress you've got to stop speaking in absolutes. It is absolutely impossible to predict the reason for why every single person plays or doesn't play a particular set of content. This applies to every single game mode. Pretending you know without a doubt why every person who raids frequently does so just invalidates every argument you have. Stop trying.

    I've been deleting or salvaging every ascended raid item and not spending any currency for a year+. In that scenario it comes at a literal gold loss due to food, just like you spoke about WvW. I'd say 95%+ of the reason I raid is literally just to talk with my friends who also like that content.

    I want to be on your side but this constant spew of absolutist arguments will get you nowhere. The only thing absolute in this entire thread is that by definition fractals are PvE. In an online MMO the "E" meaning environment is 100% equal to non-players...aka "Player vs Non-Player".

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

    I can say with pretty good certainty that no, the same amount wouldn't be playing it. Rewards are important that's why they had to add them to WvW to get a population spike and it still wasn't enough hence why they've linked servers and are now migrating to an alliance system and removing servers as a whole.

    But again, I'm not the one here who thinks WvW is in a healthy state and has a really active population. I've seen WvW in a healthy state with active populations, what we have currently is some Frankenstein level surgery attempting to keep that mode afloat because it can't hold itself up.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

    Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

    Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

    Dude if you want to make any progress you've got to stop speaking in absolutes. It is absolutely impossible to predict the reason for why every single person plays or doesn't play a particular set of content.

    Huh? Did you miss how predictable and easy Anet killed Dungeon content by simply modify the rewards?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

    Yes every person that plays would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor.

    Trust me, not everyone. Not even close. If you really think that way, then you probably simply have a vastly different type of ingame friends/acquaintances than i do.

    Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

    It still has LI. And it _is_played much less than previous wings. I know a lot of regular and semi-regular raiders that skip it completely (or at least started skipping it after getting that one kill for each boss there, to unlock coalescence).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @ButterPeanut.9746 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

    Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

    Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

    Dude if you want to make any progress you've got to stop speaking in absolutes. It is absolutely impossible to predict the reason for why every single person plays or doesn't play a particular set of content.

    Huh? Did you miss how predictable and easy Anet killed Dungeon content by simply modify the rewards?

    Nowhere in your post that I commented on did you mention dungeons. Not really relevant to the topic of this thread. I do find this interesting though:

    "The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards."

    What is interesting is I don't know any raiders who think like that but it seems like you do but based on your other posts I would guess that you don't raid often. Thonk

    Anyone who has any interest in the legendary armor knows that the raiding requirements are the easy part...its the 300 provisoner tokens that are the "challenging content" xD

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

    Yes every person that plays would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor.

    Trust me, not everyone. Not even close. If you really think that way, then you probably simply have a vastly different type of ingame friends/acquaintances than i do.

    Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

    It still has LI. And it _is_played much less than previous wings. I know a lot of regular and semi-regular raiders that skip it completely (or at least started skipping it after getting that one kill for each boss there, to unlock coalescence).

    And I know regular and semi-regular raiders who only clear W5 recently. Anecdotal evidence either way.

    By the way, on the topic of dungeons... Dungeons didn't just die when they became non-profitable. They died when they became non-profitable AND when the game offered better instanced content. The extrapolation to raids dying if their loot suddenly became poor fails to account for that second reason. Raids are the best instanced content in the game. And they are not that profitable anyway. So that particular conclusion seems quite the stretch.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

    Yes every person that plays would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor.

    Trust me, not everyone. Not even close. If you really think that way, then you probably simply have a vastly different type of ingame friends/acquaintances than i do.

    Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

    It still has LI. And it _is_played much less than previous wings. I know a lot of regular and semi-regular raiders that skip it completely (or at least started skipping it after getting that one kill for each boss there, to unlock coalescence).

    The thing with W5 is that its accessibility is awful, horrible, terrible, outrageous. Like, Dhuum TRAININGS ask for 38483858274 lis OR KP. It's absurd and it pisses me off. I have my Dhuum KPs but asking for KP for a training is the epitome of elitism (and stupidity). In my opinion, getting into W5 is a lot harder than getting into any other wing and that has a very negative impact on the amount of players that get to experience it.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What was "badly designed" in Raids is that they were developed to be content for static groups and not for pugs. "A pug will defeat some of the encounters but not all of them", I'm paraphrasing here until I find the exact wording, but it was something similar to this. So things like LI, KP, "toxicity", "elitism", that appear exclusively in pugs, weren't part of the design process to begin with. Perhaps that's why there were no systems in place to make LI and KP more visible without pinging and chat commands.

    Maybe it's time to re-think Raids and how pugs work in Raids.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    What was "badly designed" in Raids is that they were developed to be content for static groups and not for pugs. "A pug will defeat some of the encounters but not all of them", I'm paraphrasing here until I find the exact wording, but it was something similar to this. So things like LI, KP, "toxicity", "elitism", that appear exclusively in pugs, weren't part of the design process to begin with. Perhaps that's why there were no systems in place to make LI and KP more visible without pinging and chat commands.

    Maybe it's time to re-think Raids and how pugs work in Raids.

    Given that pug groups kill Dhuum with CM active, I really question that conclusion. Some pugs will fail encounters. But not all of them.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    What was "badly designed" in Raids is that they were developed to be content for static groups and not for pugs. "A pug will defeat some of the encounters but not all of them", I'm paraphrasing here until I find the exact wording, but it was something similar to this. So things like LI, KP, "toxicity", "elitism", that appear exclusively in pugs, weren't part of the design process to begin with. Perhaps that's why there were no systems in place to make LI and KP more visible without pinging and chat commands.

    Maybe it's time to re-think Raids and how pugs work in Raids.

    Given that pug groups kill Dhuum with CM active, I really question that conclusion. Some pugs will fail encounters. But not all of them.

    It's not my conclusion, it's what the developers said. All I'm saying is that when they developed the Raids they didn't think about pugs and how they would group, it was more of an afterthought.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 8, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

    Yes every person that plays would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor.

    Trust me, not everyone. Not even close. If you really think that way, then you probably simply have a vastly different type of ingame friends/acquaintances than i do.

    Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

    It still has LI. And it _is_played much less than previous wings. I know a lot of regular and semi-regular raiders that skip it completely (or at least started skipping it after getting that one kill for each boss there, to unlock coalescence).

    And I know regular and semi-regular raiders who only clear W5 recently. Anecdotal evidence either way.

    By the way, on the topic of dungeons... Dungeons didn't just die when they became non-profitable. They died when they became non-profitable AND when the game offered better instanced content. The extrapolation to raids dying if their loot suddenly became poor fails to account for that second reason. Raids are the best instanced content in the game. And they are not that profitable anyway. So that particular conclusion seems quite the stretch.

    I'm pretty sure that what ultimately killed dungeons was not the reward nerf (even if it was a major point), nor introduction of raids. It was the simple fact that Anet said "they're dead". People knew that it would be a content with no future.
    If anet said today that from now on they won't touch raids anymore, i'm sure that their popularity would plummet even if there were no other changes to them whatsoever. If it were to be done alongside a reward nerf/removing reward exclusivity, the content would be practically dead within half a year at most.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    What was "badly designed" in Raids is that they were developed to be content for static groups and not for pugs. "A pug will defeat some of the encounters but not all of them", I'm paraphrasing here until I find the exact wording, but it was something similar to this. So things like LI, KP, "toxicity", "elitism", that appear exclusively in pugs, weren't part of the design process to begin with. Perhaps that's why there were no systems in place to make LI and KP more visible without pinging and chat commands.

    Maybe it's time to re-think Raids and how pugs work in Raids.

    Given that pug groups kill Dhuum with CM active, I really question that conclusion. Some pugs will fail encounters. But not all of them.

    As maddoctor mentioned above, it's about the design goals, not the reality. Originally it seems Anet didn't expect raids to be puggable and thus didn't include any plans for that. That's why, for example, initially you couldn't lfg raid squads and had to use workarounds.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.