My opinion about raids - Page 6 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

My opinion about raids

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  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Of course you can. It's called "being diverse".

    Diverse is allowing various people to play different modes, not designing the mode to be deliberately exclusive.

    That's exactly the point, though. In order to allow specific players to play something, you create content targeted specifically at them. And because the requirements vary too much, this will naturally exclude others from that content. That's fine - you also design content deliberately aimed at those others. This allows you to achieve MUCH greater diversity than you otherwise can.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    You got it wrong. Diverse is having content for lots of different kinds of players, not allowing various people to play different modes.

    Ok, let's not get into semantics. We're discussing the term within the context of what is in the best interests of a whole game. My point is, it's not in the best interests of the game to design content to exclude people. It's best to design a version of it that appeals to a broad range of players, but to also have versions of it that appeal to the mainstream, so that as many players as possible can enjoy as much of the game as possible. It is not helpful to make the mode deliberately exclusionary, or to have some elements that a broad audience would like, and others that would drive them away from it.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    That's exactly the point, though. In order to allow specific players to play something, you create content targeted specifically at them.

    But that doesn't mean that you can't also target everyone else with it. As I've said numerous times, I have no issue with raids continuing to exist in their current, challenging format, so long as there is also a version of them that is more inclusive, one that includes the unique elements of the raids, but in a more casual format that is more suited to the general tastes of the game's audience. That is the best use of content diversity, because it gives everyone what they want, without leaving anyone feeling left out.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    Ok, let's not get into semantics. We're discussing the term within the context of what is in the best interests of a whole game.

    The best interest of a whole game is to have content for a variety of players. Having "diverse" content means exactly that, that means some exclusiveness will appear, since players have different interests and skill levels. That way every type of player gets content that they want, it's why mmorpgs have such diverse content, to encompass as many player types as possible.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The best interest of a whole game is to have content for a variety of players.

    You should have read the rest of my post. I'll quote: "My point is, it's not in the best interests of the game to design content to exclude people. It's best to design a version of it that appeals to a broad range of players, but to also have versions of it that appeal to the mainstream, so that as many players as possible can enjoy as much of the game as possible. It is not helpful to make the mode deliberately exclusionary, or to have some elements that a broad audience would like, and others that would drive them away from it."

    Having "diverse" content means exactly that, that means some exclusiveness will appear, since players have different interests and skill levels.

    But designed well, these would not be impediments. You would have a version of the content that might exclude some people, but you would also have a version that didn't, so that players that were "excluded" from version A would be missing out on absolutely nothing other than the reason for their inclusion. Every other aspect of the content would remain available to them.

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    Ok, let's not get into semantics. We're discussing the term within the context of what is in the best interests of a whole game.

    The best interest of a whole game is to have content for a variety of players. Having "diverse" content means exactly that, that means some exclusiveness will appear, since players have different interests and skill levels. That way every type of player gets content that they want, it's why mmorpgs have such diverse content, to encompass as many player types as possible.

    How often has he been told that? One, two, three dozen times in the last months? More often? This kitten isn't leading anywhere when one side clearly isn't willing (or able) to listen.

    Praise delta!

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CptAurellian.9537 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    Ok, let's not get into semantics. We're discussing the term within the context of what is in the best interests of a whole game.

    The best interest of a whole game is to have content for a variety of players. Having "diverse" content means exactly that, that means some exclusiveness will appear, since players have different interests and skill levels. That way every type of player gets content that they want, it's why mmorpgs have such diverse content, to encompass as many player types as possible.

    How often has he been told that? One, two, three dozen times in the last months? More often? This kitten isn't leading anywhere when one side clearly isn't willing (or able) to listen.

    Definitely. I keep repeating myself and it just doesn't seem to be sinking in. Thank you!

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There was no need for another demonstration of what I said, but thank you anyway for doing so.

    Praise delta!

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    The best interest of a whole game is to have content for a variety of players.

    You should have read the rest of my post.

    I read it, the answer stays the exact same. Diverse = having content for a variety of players.

    But designed well, these would not be impediments.

    Not really, the word "diverse" is rather clear its meaning, content for a variety of playerstyles, of players with different skill levels, interests and abilities. Designed well means, adding those types of content to a game and then maintaining them.
    Now please don't tell me to re-read your pointless "rest of your posts" because I'll simply tell you to do the same.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I read it, the answer stays the exact same. Diverse = having content for a variety of players.

    And as I said, I agree with that, but doing it right goes beyond just that. It's "having content for a variety of players" plus making it accessible to as many players as possible.

    Now please don't tell me to re-read your pointless "rest of your posts" because I'll simply tell you to do the same.

    No need to get testy, you were the one that was ignoring the central point of my post.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I read it, the answer stays the exact same. Diverse = having content for a variety of players.

    And as I said, I agree with that, but doing it right goes beyond just that.

    No it doesn't.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    You can't design an entire mode of the game to not be played by the overwhelming majority of players, particularly if there is story and rewards locked behind it (and both are true of GW2 raids).

    Of course you can. It's called "being diverse".

    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    That's exactly the point, though. In order to allow specific players to play something, you create content targeted specifically at them.

    But that doesn't mean that you can't also target everyone else with it.

    Actually it does. The player requirements are too different.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    And yet games have been doing this for....well longer than i've been alive.
    This can be showcased even on older consoles, there was this thing called a Demo disk. It was given out and had a wide ranging (one might say diverse) set of games on it ranging from kid friendly to grimdark and you know what everything on it wasn't for everyone but you can sure as heck bet those demos sold more copies (brought in people) from types of games they usually wouldn't play.

    This is literally no different than the themepark style MMO GW2 is. Not every piece of content is for everyone. Not every object is for everyone. To chase that is an unhealthy obsession and worse design that leads to people having real mental and physical conditions.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    How is it any different than "slapping" something like Ad Infinitum behind fractals? It requires quite a bit of dedication to get as well. In either case you have alternatives in PvP and WvW.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    I think we've already been through this in that other thread and a different version of Legendary Armor in PVE (not Envoy skin) would be nice. I don't see many people disagreeing with that (if any)
    Edit: As you probably know I even posted my own suggestion, and contributed to another one on the subject.

  • Chris McSwag.4683Chris McSwag.4683 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    It's a long term goal achievable for literally anyone that is willing to put in some effort. PvP and WvW have their own versions as well, which also requires effort.
    There are plenty of things in game that cater to specific groups of people and that the majority will never have - but that doesn't mean its poorly designed.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    According to GW2 Efficiency 30% of people have done Vale Guardian. 7% Have done Soulless Horror.

    To be more specific:
    Vale Guardian: 30% or 52,277 players
    Slothasor: 17.5% or 30,619 players
    Escort: 29.6% or 47,095 players
    Cairn: 20.5% or 35,900 players
    Soulless Horror: 7.4% or 12,946 players

    Also, according to gw2efficiency there is 22% less players owning Path of Fire (71.7%) than Heart of Thorns (93.5%) The completion percentages are out of the 100% of gw2efficiency accounts, not only from eligible players. For some reason the percentages of those that have the achievements do not match the number of players that have each expansion (don't know how gw2eff works). Total number of players is 195262, but in the achievement page they compare with 174,935 I don't know they get that number.
    According to the total stat page, 182,599 have Heart of Thorns and 140,111 have Path of Fire, which makes the actual percentages (when adjusted for eligibility) as follows:

    Vale Guardian: 28.6%
    Slothasor: 16.7%
    Escort: 25.7%
    Cairn: 19.6%
    Soulless Horror: 9.2%

    Find that very interesting is it the difficulty of wing 5 or a matter of demographics?

    Difficulty is obviously a factor, but not the only one. VG has the highest percentage, but is by no means easier than Cairn or Escort.

    Part of the problem is that while regular raiders are completely fine with the idea of "just do whichever raid bosses work for you," that's not how most casual players would look at the situation, and certainly not how the raids were designed to be played. I'm not saying "you're doing it wrong," if it works for you, it works for you, but if ANet had intended players to skip and choose raid bosses then you wouldn't need to unlock them each week, a new player could just pick "Sabetha" off a list and just jump right in. But no, they designed them in a specific order, with a storyline that carries through, and to a lot of players, particularly those that aren't serious raiders, they want to do them in the order presented, 1, 2, 3. So the reason that a lot more people do VG than others, is because they went from VG to Gorseval, failed too often, and quit completely, without even considering skipping to much later bosses.

    The intent was obviously to be played in order, by players who enjoy challenging content. The casual players were never much of a consideration, because they were never target audience for this content.

    You can't design an entire mode of the game to not be played by the overwhelming majority of players, particularly if there is story and rewards locked behind it (and both are true of GW2 raids).

    It's an MMORPG. Just as a matter of fact, with the exception of the opening tutorial stories almost everything in the game is seen by a minority of players. A minority of players are going to find certain events. A minority of players are going to do certain jumping puzzles. Every race in the game is played by a minority of players.

    It's why MMORPG are soooo risky to develop. Because the amount of content needed to create a fleshed out in game world quickly bloats the game's development costs into over a 100 million dollars and most players aren't even going to see all of it.

    But there's still value in it in halving a wealth of content most people haven't done because it's important to still have things to do in an MMORPG. Like I said, MMORPGs are the All You Can Eat Buffet of video games.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    According to GW2 Efficiency 30% of people have done Vale Guardian. 7% Have done Soulless Horror.

    To be more specific:
    Vale Guardian: 30% or 52,277 players
    Slothasor: 17.5% or 30,619 players
    Escort: 29.6% or 47,095 players
    Cairn: 20.5% or 35,900 players
    Soulless Horror: 7.4% or 12,946 players

    Also, according to gw2efficiency there is 22% less players owning Path of Fire (71.7%) than Heart of Thorns (93.5%) The completion percentages are out of the 100% of gw2efficiency accounts, not only from eligible players. For some reason the percentages of those that have the achievements do not match the number of players that have each expansion (don't know how gw2eff works). Total number of players is 195262, but in the achievement page they compare with 174,935 I don't know they get that number.
    According to the total stat page, 182,599 have Heart of Thorns and 140,111 have Path of Fire, which makes the actual percentages (when adjusted for eligibility) as follows:

    Vale Guardian: 28.6%
    Slothasor: 16.7%
    Escort: 25.7%
    Cairn: 19.6%
    Soulless Horror: 9.2%

    Find that very interesting is it the difficulty of wing 5 or a matter of demographics?

    Well, first you have to factor in that VG came first, and Anet said that 20% of their total population tried raids when VG launched, not to mention the massive content drought where it was Raids (VG) or nothing. So it stands to reason that the highest number of players would have done that, as it would include all the people that learned they don't like raids.

    Escort's high numbers are most likely due to the fact that is has become the go-to Raid for training/Introductory of raids to anyone looking to get into Raiding, so it's high success rate is to be expected.

    Which leaves us to the other 3 raids, which reflect the amount of players that actually enjoy and do raids, which is around a 10% reduction of those that have done a raid.

    Keep in mind however as far as GW2 Efficiency goes, this is only the players that are so invested into the game they would make an account to chart their progress, most likely this does not reflect upon a substantial number of the casual player base.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    How is it any different than "slapping" something like Ad Infinitum behind fractals? It requires quite a bit of dedication to get as well. In either case you have alternatives in PvP and WvW.

    And if the roles were reversed and Envoy Armor was locked behind ranked pvp, who would honestly be happy with that situation. Honestly.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    How is it any different than "slapping" something like Ad Infinitum behind fractals? It requires quite a bit of dedication to get as well. In either case you have alternatives in PvP and WvW.

    Then they should have made a raid Legendary back pack and left it at that.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 10, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    How is it any different than "slapping" something like Ad Infinitum behind fractals? It requires quite a bit of dedication to get as well. In either case you have alternatives in PvP and WvW.

    Well, for one they never said they intend fractals to be the only pve way of obtaining legendary backpack. Nor that they will never make any new legendary backpack skin. There were no players that claimed that fractals are the only content deserving of legendary backpack, and that Ad Infinitum is the PvE leg backpack, and PvE doesn't need any more.
    From the very beginning we knew, there will be choices, and even more choices in the future. And none of those choices would be better than the others.

    If Anet, instead of sticking Envoy set behind raids, put another legendary backpack there, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I read it, the answer stays the exact same. Diverse = having content for a variety of players.

    And as I said, I agree with that, but doing it right goes beyond just that.

    No it doesn't.

    I disagree with that.

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    That's exactly the point, though. In order to allow specific players to play something, you create content targeted specifically at them.

    But that doesn't mean that you can't also target everyone else with it.

    Actually it does. The player requirements are too different.

    I've already explained how you can do it quite easily. You just take the same content, and present an easier version of it for those players that don't enjoy challenging content. You get the challenging content for the players that want that, and the non-challenging version so that the other players miss out on nothing. Diversity of content without exclusion.

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    This can be showcased even on older consoles, there was this thing called a Demo disk. It was given out and had a wide ranging (one might say diverse) set of games on it ranging from kid friendly to grimdark and you know what everything on it wasn't for everyone but you can sure as heck bet those demos sold more copies (brought in people) from types of games they usually wouldn't play.

    The problem there is that games on a demo disc weren't interlinked. If you didn't want to play one of those games, you just didn't play it. It wasn't like you needed to complete the demo to Warhawk to unlock a cool skin for Jumping Flash. The problem here is that whether raiders like it or not, the raids do lock out story content that matters to people who play the rest of GW2, and they DO lock out skins that matter to those players as well, and as long as that remains true, players have good reason to want to break down that wall. I'm 100% behind you getting the raiding mode you want and leaving it well alone, so long as the remaining players can also get what they want in their own copy of the experience.

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    How is it any different than "slapping" something like Ad Infinitum behind fractals? It requires quite a bit of dedication to get as well. In either case you have alternatives in PvP and WvW.

    Say it with me now, 3, 2, 1, "two wrongs don't make a right."

    @Chris McSwag.4683 said:
    It's a long term goal achievable for literally anyone that is willing to put in some effort. PvP and WvW have their own versions as well, which also requires effort.

    Only if they enjoy raiding though. Otherwise they are left with only two options, A. Play a mode that they don't enjoy at all, or B. never get that thing. Neither is a positive option. That's why there should be an alternate mode, so that players don't have to pick between two bad options, and can instead enjoy the play experience.

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    A minority of players are going to find certain events. A minority of players are going to do certain jumping puzzles. Every race in the game is played by a minority of players.

    But they can find and do those things if they want to. That's the distinction. Not every player finds every element of the game, but it isn't deliberately excluding anyone.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    The problem there is that games on a demo disc weren't interlinked. If you didn't want to play one of those games, you just didn't play it. It wasn't like you needed to complete the demo to Warhawk to unlock a cool skin for Jumping Flash. The problem here is that whether raiders like it or not, the raids do lock out story content that matters to people who play the rest of GW2, and they DO lock out skins that matter to those players as well, and as long as that remains true, players have good reason to want to break down that wall. I'm 100% behind you getting the raiding mode you want and leaving it well alone, so long as the remaining players can also get what they want in their own copy of the experience.

    There is no story in raids that you are locked out of. Anet has bent over backwards to provide you with ways to experience it.

    How have they bent over backwards? I don’t see any story mode for W4 and W5. They are using story plots from gw1 that were left dangling.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    How have they bent over backwards? I don’t see any story mode for W4 and W5. They are using story plots from gw1 that were left dangling.

    Adding Glenna's recap feature for w1-3/Bennet's explanation of his events for LS2. Wing 4 is completely stand alone and arguably the easiest wing they've produced. It also has the unique design of having all of the story being available after the fights by just walking through it and exploring.

    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    But sure lets continue down this almost comical path of ANet excluding you from the story when the reality is much simpler than that, you've made your beds not to raid for whatever reason and want to complain.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    At no point in time is any single player locked out from doing raids. YOU"VE MADE THAT CHOICE FOR YOURSELF. You need to learn to come to terms with this. Your choices in life have prohibited you not the game, not some systemic evil or the playerbase. You.

    No, it's not my choice. I can't choose to enjoy the raids in their current form. I NEVER will enjoy them as they are today, and nothing you or I could ever do could possibly change that. So I don't have a good choice here, a choice where one of the outcomes could potentially make me happy. I can only choose to engage in content I could never enjoy, OR I could never get the rewards and story experience that I would like to have. Two bad options.

    Present me a GOOD option and I will shut up, instantly.

    Until then, just accept that what you're selling, I will never buy.

    Adding Glenna's recap feature for w1-3/Bennet's explanation of his events for LS2.

    A recap is not a gaming experience. Period.

    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2.

    Wouldn't it be nice if you could just log in and join a random pug, and stand a solid chance of completing it anyway? No statics required? Everyone would benefit from that.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    How have they bent over backwards? I don’t see any story mode for W4 and W5. They are using story plots from gw1 that were left dangling.

    Adding Glenna's recap feature for w1-3/Bennet's explanation of his events for LS2. Wing 4 is completely stand alone and arguably the easiest wing they've produced. It also has the unique design of having all of the story being available after the fights by just walking through it and exploring.

    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    But sure lets continue down this almost comical path of ANet excluding you from the story when the reality is much simpler than that, you've made your beds not to raid for whatever reason and want to complain.

    You are mistaken, Tex, I don’t think anything about this is funny. I don’t think the plight of your fellow gamer should be something that you should find amusing in the first place. Perhaps a bit of empathy is in order.

    When you enter a cleared wing 4 you get a bit of dialogue on Saul, which really isn’t saying you get all the story. It’s like watching the very end of a movie, where people are explaining what had occurred as being sufficient enough to not watch the entirety of the film. The same goes for Wing 5.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    How is it any different than "slapping" something like Ad Infinitum behind fractals? It requires quite a bit of dedication to get as well. In either case you have alternatives in PvP and WvW.

    Then they should have made a raid Legendary back pack and left it at that.

    this would have been a great idea.. too bad Anet didn't think of it.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Interesting how another thread that is about Raids turned into a rewards argument. Didn't we all agree on that other thread that we disagree on the subject?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    I think the point is "you can't design an entire mode of the game for a small, specific subgroup of community, while at the same time providing incentives that are supposed to pull into that mode players from outside of said subgroup". Well, obviously you can, but that's simply a bad design. Because there's no way that's not going to cause a lot of problems.

    Only that's how game modes work. Every piece of content and game mode has its own unique rewards, and those that did not for a time, are getting some because even Arenanet figured that giving rewards from multiple pieces of content wasn't working. It's not bad design, it's basic game design.
    Is it causing a lot of problems though? When things -actually- cause problems there is a response. But this specific subject there has been none, unless you call a problem some loud posters on the official forums. If it WAS a problem then you'd either get a response, or at the very least see reactions from the entire community, outside this forum, that would in turn cause a response. I think this entire "it's bad design and it causes problems" thing is being blown way out of proportions here.

    Giving a niche group of players raids is fine. Giving unique rewards is like Oblivion, Matthias Staff, Saul staff etc. Is fine too. My beef is slapping something like Legendary Armor behind Raids is where my gears begin to grind.

    How is it any different than "slapping" something like Ad Infinitum behind fractals? It requires quite a bit of dedication to get as well. In either case you have alternatives in PvP and WvW.

    And if the roles were reversed and Envoy Armor was locked behind ranked pvp, who would honestly be happy with that situation. Honestly.

    No, like I'm not happy with the best-looking legendary backpack being PvP. But I live with it.

    And no, PvE already has a legendary backpack. Making a second one makes no sense. Especially since the groups of dedicated fractal players and raiders overlap heavily.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Interesting how another thread that is about Raids turned into a rewards argument. Didn't we all agree on that other thread that we disagree on the subject?

    If you can point out a different way to unlock Envoy armor, then I'm all ears, but until then, they are intrinsically linked to raids, and an active part of any discussion about raids, always.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    At no point in time is any single player locked out from doing raids. YOU"VE MADE THAT CHOICE FOR YOURSELF. You need to learn to come to terms with this. Your choices in life have prohibited you not the game, not some systemic evil or the playerbase. You.

    No, it's not my choice. I can't choose to enjoy the raids in their current form. I NEVER will enjoy them as they are today, and nothing you or I could ever do could possibly change that. So I don't have a good choice here, a choice where one of the outcomes could potentially make me happy. I can only choose to engage in content I could never enjoy, OR I could never get the rewards and story experience that I would like to have. Two bad options.

    Present me a GOOD option and I will shut up, instantly.

    Until then, just accept that what you're selling, I will never buy.

    Adding Glenna's recap feature for w1-3/Bennet's explanation of his events for LS2.

    A recap is not a gaming experience. Period.

    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2.

    Wouldn't it be nice if you could just log in and join a random pug, and stand a solid chance of completing it anyway? No statics required? Everyone would benefit from that.

    If this lock raids from you then I am locked from pvp, wvw and most open world. I guess I have to make a post about the fact that pvp dont have bots, wvw has low amount of action and openworld is too easy and since I dont enjoy it it has to be changed.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Interesting how another thread that is about Raids turned into a rewards argument. Didn't we all agree on that other thread that we disagree on the subject?

    Just ignore him. He's always going to whine about getting the Envoy for free. It's obvious he's not getting that, so I don't even bother correcting his absurd claims.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    If this lock raids from you then I am locked from pvp, wvw and most open world. I guess I have to make a post about the fact that pvp dont have bots, wvw has low amount of action and openworld is too easy and since I dont enjoy it it has to be changed.

    Ok. I would like to help you, and agree with many of those points. Open world can be tricky to mess with, since you have to share it with everyone else, but maybe there's some way they could have optional "challenge maps" for open world maps.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    He's saying locked out as not enjoying the content only on response to people like Ohoni claiming the same about raids.

    It's obvious that no one is locked out of any content. He's not locked out of OW but neither is Ohoni from raids. But since some people keep insisting on this false argument, he makes an (obviously ironic) analogy.

    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    B... Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game? This game has different things, let's just acknowledge that and let's also acknowledge that enjoying a lesser % of the game does not mean that you have less right to complain or that the game is not for you. Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    A ) no i didnt. I used tomes of knowlage to skip last 18 lvls. Still i would quit if i didnt rush to next story chapeter.

    B ) it is for me since lvling takes less time, combat has more action. My friends wanted me to try gw for long time but before hot there was no part of the game that would interest me (group pve) and i didnt want to pay just to try. With raids introduced abd base game FTP i finaly could try and enjoy the game

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:
    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    Not really the same thing. Raids have a much steeper barrier of entry.

    Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game?

    Kinda?

    Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    At the very least, this should disqualify you from deciding what GW2 should or should not do moving forward. I have no problem with people who only raids and do not engage with the entire rest of the game, so long as they don't make proclamations that people who do enjoy all those things "aren't deserving" of things that are in raids. If it would make more players happy to have access to those elements, then people who only raid should not have some right to gatekeep those features from them.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @nia.4725 said:
    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    Not really the same thing. Raids have a much steeper barrier of entry.

    Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game?

    Kinda?

    Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    At the very least, this should disqualify you from deciding what GW2 should or should not do moving forward. I have no problem with people who only raids and do not engage with the entire rest of the game, so long as they don't make proclamations that people who do enjoy all those things "aren't deserving" of things that are in raids. If it would make more players happy to have access to those elements, then people who only raid should not have some right to gatekeep those features from them

    Hope you relise that raiding basicaly lose you gold. And i do not play only raid. I play dungeons, fractals, raids and story. I sometimes do other stuff for short time. More importantly i am paying customer so i have same right to state my to decide gw2 future as you do.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @nia.4725 said:
    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    Not really the same thing. Raids have a much steeper barrier of entry.

    Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game?

    Kinda?

    Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    At the very least, this should disqualify you from deciding what GW2 should or should not do moving forward. I have no problem with people who only raids and do not engage with the entire rest of the game, so long as they don't make proclamations that people who do enjoy all those things "aren't deserving" of things that are in raids. If it would make more players happy to have access to those elements, then people who only raid should not have some right to gatekeep those features from them

    Hope you relise that raiding basicaly lose you gold.

    I've heard this. I don't necessarily support it. If this aspect bothers you, then argue that ANet should make some changes, maybe making the "right" foods easier to get ahold of or something. I don't know, I'm on your side on this one, but it's not really my fight to wage.

    I sometimes do other stuff for short time. More importantly i am paying customer so i have same right to state my to decide gw2 future as you do.

    Sure, so long as it doesn't come into conflict with the greater good. A small amount of the community who only play a small amount of the content should not be able to determine what the rest of the players "deserve" to have, right?

  • @Ohoni.6057 said:
    Not really the same thing. Raids have a much steeper barrier of entry.

    You don't even need a commander to open a raid and make your own squad via lfg.
    If that's a steep barrier, then idk.
    If you want to get into "serious" raiding, you have to do a little on your own. Like join training raids or join one of the various discord servers to train you.
    I just fail to see how any of this is a steep barrier of entry.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @nia.4725 said:
    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    Not really the same thing. Raids have a much steeper barrier of entry.

    Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game?

    Kinda?

    Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    At the very least, this should disqualify you from deciding what GW2 should or should not do moving forward. I have no problem with people who only raids and do not engage with the entire rest of the game, so long as they don't make proclamations that people who do enjoy all those things "aren't deserving" of things that are in raids. If it would make more players happy to have access to those elements, then people who only raid should not have some right to gatekeep those features from them

    Hope you relise that raiding basicaly lose you gold.

    I've heard this. I don't necessarily support it. If this aspect bothers you, then argue that ANet should make some changes, maybe making the "right" foods easier to get ahold of or something. I don't know, I'm on your side on this one, but it's not really my fight to wage.

    I sometimes do other stuff for short time. More importantly i am paying customer so i have same right to state my to decide gw2 future as you do.

    Sure, so long as it doesn't come into conflict with the greater good. A small amount of the community who only play a small amount of the content should not be able to determine what the rest of the players "deserve" to have, right?

    It does. My vote has same power as yours. And i dont want more gold from raids. If I wanted gold i would do istan.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:
    It's funny because you sound so entitled, Ohoni. Do you really think you have any right to decide anything?

    I have a right to decide what I do and don't support. That's about it. So do you. You have the right to either get in the way of other players, or help them out. Only you can decide what to do with that right.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    You don't even need a commander to open a raid and make your own squad via lfg.

    Don't confuse a "barrier of entry" with "the bare minimum to get through the door." The "barrier of entry" means the requirements needed to actually successfully complete the content, not just to pound your face futilely against it.

    I just fail to see how any of this is a steep barrier of entry.

    Then just accept that what may not seem steep to you, does not mean that it's not steep to others, or that they are incorrect for seeing it differently than you do.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    It does. My vote has same power as yours. And i dont want more gold from raids. If I wanted gold i would do istan.

    Ok, then don't complain about the cost? I don't know how to help you here, I want you to be happy with what you've got, and I want you to be happy with what I want to have. If you aren't fine with what you've got, then I want to help you get there, all I'm asking for is the same consideration.

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