My opinion about raids - Page 7 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

My opinion about raids

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  • @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    You don't even need a commander to open a raid and make your own squad via lfg.

    Don't confuse a "barrier of entry" with "the bare minimum to get through the door." The "barrier of entry" means the requirements needed to actually successfully >complete the content, not just to pound your face futilely against it.

    You can successfully complete the content with training groups. While they might struggle with W5, they do kill older bosses quite regularly. Not necessarily first try, but they do. Most training groups have a few experienced players willing to help.
    Would you say that joining a guild is a steep barrier? Or what else do you think you have to do in order to join a raid?

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    You can successfully complete the content with training groups.

    People keep saying this, and yet people keep struggling with it. Can't we just agree that the content is harder than some players enjoy, and that while itn works for you, and should remain as it is for you, other players might genuinely enjoy an alternative?

    Would you say that joining a guild is a steep barrier?

    Obviously.

    Or what else do you think you have to do in order to join a raid?

    Log in, see "Quick raid run, Sabetha" on the LFG, click it, go in, clear it first or second attempt in under an hour or so (ideally much less than that).

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @nia.4725 said:
    It's funny because you sound so entitled, Ohoni. Do you really think you have any right to decide anything?

    I have a right to decide what I do and don't support. That's about it. So do you. You have the right to either get in the way of other players, or help them out. Only you can decide what to do with that right.

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:
    You don't even need a commander to open a raid and make your own squad via lfg.

    Don't confuse a "barrier of entry" with "the bare minimum to get through the door." The "barrier of entry" means the requirements needed to actually successfully complete the content, not just to pound your face futilely against it.

    I just fail to see how any of this is a steep barrier of entry.

    Then just accept that what may not seem steep to you, does not mean that it's not steep to others, or that they are incorrect for seeing it differently than you do.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    It does. My vote has same power as yours. And i dont want more gold from raids. If I wanted gold i would do istan.

    Ok, then don't complain about the cost? I don't know how to help you here, I want you to be happy with what you've got, and I want you to be happy with what I want to have. If you aren't fine with what you've got, then I want to help you get there, all I'm asking for is the same consideration.

    You dont understand. I do not complain. I am fine with raids as they are. But if tvey did your idea (give acces to all raid skins without raids) i would probably leave. And it is not because i dont want others to have it. It is because that would make a statement that anet will do more stuff for casual players then for dedicated players. There would be no goal to work for for more tryhard players.
    Raids are harder the OW yet with this change there would be no reward. No raider ask for 15 golds for boss (and that would be fair reward for it). That would cause much more outrage. The curent system where rewards for raids are accountbound works much better.

  • Ohoni.6057Ohoni.6057 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    You dont understand. I do not complain. I am fine with raids as they are. But if tvey did your idea (give acces to all raid skins without raids) i would probably leave.

    Well, that's sad.

    It is because that would make a statement that anet will do more stuff for casual players then for dedicated players.

    But I am dedicated. Probably as dedicated as you are. I'm in the "over 4000 hours" camp, higher than 83% of the Efficiency population. "Casual" is not opposed to "dedication," "casual" can mean many different things depending on context. Players who are "gameplay casual" can be very dedicated, they are just dedicated to a casual experience.

    There would be no goal to work for for more tryhard players.

    Sure there would, the exact same goals that are in right now. They would be no easier to achieve, the casual methods would take longer to accomplish, so tryhards would always have them much faster and for longer. More importantly, even after the casuals have their armor, you would know what you did you earn yours, and ultimately, that's all that matters, not what other people have.

    Raids are harder the OW yet with this change there would be no reward.

    Again, no rewards would be removed from raids. Everything you could earn there now, you would continue to earn there, and if anyone else could get them, it would take them longer. By the time they have whatever you have now, you would be on to whatever rewards are going to be added in a year from now.

    No raider ask for 15 golds for boss (and that would be fair reward for it). That would cause much more outrage. The curent system where rewards for raids are accountbound works much better.

    I would MUCH rather that raiders get 15 gold per boss* than for them to have exclusive access to any skins. I'm almost certain that most players would agree on that.

    * I will note the caveat that this much liquid gold might have economic implications, but if it were in materials or something? Sure, ok, whatever.

  • @Ohoni.6057 said:
    People keep saying this, and yet people keep struggling with it. Can't we just agree that the content is harder than some players enjoy, and that while itn works for you, >and should remain as it is for you, other players might genuinely enjoy an alternative?

    So you basically want raids not be raids? Raids are supposed to be the hardest content in the game.
    The alternative for those players are Open World, Dungeons and Fractals.
    You want easy mode Raids? Thats fine. Just get the Open World Team to rebalance the bosses, dont give LI, dont give achievements and have a reduced chance on Minipets and ascended equipment.

    Would you say that joining a guild is a steep barrier?

    Obviously.

    If that's really considered a steep barrier, I can't help people anymore. It's an MMORPG. You are literally supposed to socialize in one way or another.
    The game gives you 5 guild slots to fill. Cant be that hard.

    Or what else do you think you have to do in order to join a raid?

    Log in, see "Quick raid run, Sabetha" on the LFG, click it, go in, clear it first or second attempt in under an hour or so (ideally much less than that).

    I often do that throughout the week. People just add 150LI or whatever to it.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:
    I would MUCH rather that raiders get 15 gold per boss* than for them to have exclusive access to any skins. I'm almost certain that most players would agree on that.

    I very much doubt that.
    First, there are raiders who have lots and lots of gold. Getting extra 10 per boss doesn't really mean anything to them.
    There are also those who will (rightfully) point out the higher liquid gold rewards will draw in more newbies to raids. While this can be good in itself, the players to point that out won't be particularly happy because it will mean more newbies joining their groups and causing wipes. This happened in WvW when the pip system was introduced, and it happened again in pretty much the same manner on this week's reset because of the extra WXP event.
    In effect you're proposing to trade something actually valuable (exclusivity) to a basic commodity (gold). Let me ask you a question - do you know how much Dhuum's throne toy sells for on the TP?

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    Because raid keep us playing in this form. If you decide to change the very core idea of them (hardest content that require teamwork, focus, knowlage and builds that make sence to finish and reward unique rewards for those that do) then it wouldnt be the same

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @nia.4725 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static to do some bosses.. because.. well issues with Pugs.. do you really think you are alone with that issue?

    When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

    Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • Teamkiller.4315Teamkiller.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

    When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

    Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

    That's actually how i started, did some trainings, pugged a lot, then joined a static. I still pug a lot.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

    When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

    Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

    It might come as a surprise, but I raided for a long time before joining an actual static. Nowadays I find myself pugging once again, because my static is going through a particularly rough time. Some people quit, some people rarely can make it on time and our raid sessions often get delayed or cancelled, and most often involve pugging. As a result, we often don't even clear W1-4 like we used to. So what do I do? I open LFG and raid. What else would I do?

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    A s/he could have leveled by wvw at the start of the game without setting fot in ow after level 2 or now they could level by spvp from useing tomes so not so obviously.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

    I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

    But, I'll answer yours.

    Yes. In fact, a large portion of gamers are quasi-casual, and enjoy progress and long term goals in the games they play, while often their progress is much slower then hardcore players, but they want the progress and the rewards the same. Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will. Everything else at that point is a time sink for them, and lets be real, time sinks are not put in for the Casual or the Quasi-Casual as their pace is slow enough to not merit them, they also serve no purpose to progress along any long term goal. As such once a player knows they can't progress to the end, they can make it to the 90% mark, and no more, it's like going to a movie.. and never being allowed to watch the end.. but you saw 90% of the movie.. is that not enough? Would any of us really buy a movie that was only 90% of the show? We both know the answer is No.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

    When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

    Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

    I'll answer bit by bit.

    About the first part. Pugging is harder than raiding with a static. That's undeniable. However, pugging is not that difficult. It is less difficult the more experienced you are, of course, as the number of LFGs you can join increases a lot. But that's normal to a point. I do however think that newbies should have it better, I do think that raid accessibility is an issue that Anet should fix. The thing is, I don't think an easy mode is the right solution to it. Now that I've said that, it's not true that I would not even try to step outside my static. I started raiding with a static, but said static died very quickly. I pugged for several months until I got accepted in a different static. And even then, when I lacked some bosses I pugged them. To sum up, I've pugged since the start, but I do not feel comfortable pugging certain bosses. Sometimes I'm willing and even interested in pugging, sometimes I don't feel like it.

    About the second part. I can understand that. I mean, I'm not a very sociable person, you know? I have my own anxiety struggles, and as I've said, I have some confidence issues too, and that does not help me w/ pugging certain bosses. But, again, I don't think an easy mode is the panacea for that. It would not solve my problem, at all. It could work for some people, but not for all of them.

    About the 3rd part. Yes, absolutely. Seriously, I can. I did not have an static during all my raider life. I joined raids with a static, well, more than a static it was 3 friends and me, but said static died quickly and I had to pug. My first static died when I had something like 30LI. I got accepted into my second static when I had 130LI. That's 100pugged LI between my first 2 statics. I had it easier, that's for sure, because my statics helped me and I also got helped by some amazing people who taught me and brought me to do my first Xera, my first Sabetha, my first Deimos, my first Matthias. But not having all of that would have not prevented me from raiding. It would have made things tougher.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    You dont understand. I do not complain. I am fine with raids as they are. But if tvey did your idea (give acces to all raid skins without raids) i would probably leave.

    Well, that's sad.

    It is because that would make a statement that anet will do more stuff for casual players then for dedicated players.

    But I am dedicated. Probably as dedicated as you are. I'm in the "over 4000 hours" camp, higher than 83% of the Efficiency population. "Casual" is not opposed to "dedication," "casual" can mean many different things depending on context. Players who are "gameplay casual" can be very dedicated, they are just dedicated to a casual experience.

    There would be no goal to work for for more tryhard players.

    Sure there would, the exact same goals that are in right now. They would be no easier to achieve, the casual methods would take longer to accomplish, so tryhards would always have them much faster and for longer. More importantly, even after the casuals have their armor, you would know what you did you earn yours, and ultimately, that's all that matters, not what other people have.

    Raids are harder the OW yet with this change there would be no reward.

    Again, no rewards would be removed from raids. Everything you could earn there now, you would continue to earn there, and if anyone else could get them, it would take them longer. By the time they have whatever you have now, you would be on to whatever rewards are going to be added in a year from now.

    No raider ask for 15 golds for boss (and that would be fair reward for it). That would cause much more outrage. The curent system where rewards for raids are accountbound works much better.

    I would MUCH rather that raiders get 15 gold per boss* than for them to have exclusive access to any skins. I'm almost certain that most players would agree on that.

    * I will note the caveat that this much liquid gold might have economic implications, but if it were in materials or something? Sure, ok, whatever.

    I dont think that would be to much gold considering you can do any other farm all day without hitting a reward cap and raids are 1 time a week

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

    When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

    Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

    It might come as a surprise, but I raided for a long time before joining an actual static. Nowadays I find myself pugging once again, because my static is going through a particularly rough time. Some people quit, some people rarely can make it on time and our raid sessions often get delayed or cancelled, and most often involve pugging. As a result, we often don't even clear W1-4 like we used to. So what do I do? I open LFG and raid. What else would I do?

    I think I saw you yesterday at the aerodrome. If it wasn't you then it was someone who had the same char name as your account : D

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

    I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

    There was no need to because it wasn't aimed at me. I actually like 99% of the content of this game. Not really my place to answer for someone else. But since you really want my answer, yes someone that hates 90% of the content in a game should probably go find another game.

    Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will.

    Yes but the company that put that content in the game continues to put content in the game that they enjoy. Last I checked Arenanet hasn't stopped releasing other content to focus only on Raids. In fact, the pace of releases is nearly the same as before Raids, with similarly sized open world zones, and similarly sized episodes in terms of story. So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get. Raids are an extra, if you really think the game isn't for you because a part of it is behind a wall you can't cross, then the rest of the game isn't doing a good enough job of keeping you in the game. You'd leave anyway

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

    I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

    There was no need to because it wasn't aimed at me. I actually like 99% of the content of this game. Not really my place to answer for someone else. But since you really want my answer, yes someone that hates 90% of the content in a game should probably go find another game.

    Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will.

    Yes but the company that put that content in the game continues to put content in the game that they enjoy. Last I checked Arenanet hasn't stopped releasing other content to focus only on Raids. In fact, the pace of releases is nearly the same as before Raids, with similarly sized open world zones, and similarly sized episodes in terms of story. So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get. Raids are an extra, if you really think the game isn't for you because a part of it is behind a wall you can't cross, then the rest of the game isn't doing a good enough job of keeping you in the game. You'd leave anyway

    We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

    In fact the more they loved the movie, the less they would be willing to pay for less of it.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get.

    Legendary Items are the Only Long Term goals in this game. Everything else is more akin to a side quest or interim reward at best. For example, Elite Spec Weapons, are something that a player can get or work on while doing their Legendary Weapon.

    Same with many things.

    As such.. no.. there is the distinct removal of the Long Term goal of PvE Legendary Armor.

    This has been explained to you ad nauseum, and at this point, I can only assume you are being willfully obtuse about this.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • @STIHL.2489 said:
    We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% >removed from it.

    But nothing got removed. They just added things.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    I'm gonna ask the reverse, is this really NOT a game for someone that likes 90% of the content? Because we read non-sense like players stopping supporting the company or quitting the game because of Raids.

    I noticed you didn't answer his question. Cute.

    There was no need to because it wasn't aimed at me. I actually like 99% of the content of this game. Not really my place to answer for someone else. But since you really want my answer, yes someone that hates 90% of the content in a game should probably go find another game.

    Once the company puts in content that stonewalls them, and stops them dead in their tracks, in case with something like raids, being two fold, with both a social construct gate and a skill/gear gate, these players realize they have progressed as far along this game as they ever will.

    Yes but the company that put that content in the game continues to put content in the game that they enjoy. Last I checked Arenanet hasn't stopped releasing other content to focus only on Raids. In fact, the pace of releases is nearly the same as before Raids, with similarly sized open world zones, and similarly sized episodes in terms of story. So those players are getting as much content as they did before Raids were added to the game, as many long term goals to go for as they did before Raids, and for those players nothing really changed in terms of what they get. Raids are an extra, if you really think the game isn't for you because a part of it is behind a wall you can't cross, then the rest of the game isn't doing a good enough job of keeping you in the game. You'd leave anyway

    We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

    In fact the more they loved the movie, the less they would be willing to pay for less of it.

    isn't the comparison more who wouldn't buy a movie they loved if they added after credits scene they didn't like?

    P.S. You made a comment about only 2 of the top ten MMO have raids as endgame. What is you're list of top 1 mmo then?

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

    When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

    Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

    It might come as a surprise, but I raided for a long time before joining an actual static. Nowadays I find myself pugging once again, because my static is going through a particularly rough time. Some people quit, some people rarely can make it on time and our raid sessions often get delayed or cancelled, and most often involve pugging. As a result, we often don't even clear W1-4 like we used to. So what do I do? I open LFG and raid. What else would I do?

    I think I saw you yesterday at the aerodrome. If it wasn't you then it was someone who had the same char name as your account : D

    Nah, I don't have a character named "Feanor". But it is entirely possible to have seen me, I was doing late W1, W3 and Deimos kills yesterday.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

    The movie example is really silly and doesn't apply to a video game. Video games have a more diverse audience than movies, they need to cater to a lot more types of people, that's why they have such diverse content. Anyway, even in your movie example, this isn't a movie but an entire franchise of 20 movies. And you will be missing some tiny parts of movies 3, 6 and 9. The other 17 movies will be perfectly available to you without anything missing. And as long the movie company continues releasing more movies that you love, missing those tiny bits in earlier movies isn't a big deal.

    Legendary Items are the Only Long Term goals in this game.

    I disagree, there are many goals to go for other than some ugly Legendary items. And even besides that, they added G2 Legendary Weapon, new backpacks, Legendary Armor in PVP and WVW, a Legendary Trinket available in LS3 zones and so on. Saying that they are not adding any new true goals is misleading and dishonest.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @Vinceman.4572 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @TexZero.7910 said:
    I cant say much on Wing 5 but that's because i haven't gone into wing 5 since my static is bored of GW2. I wouldn't be surprised if it's not designed in a very similar way which allows you to talk to the NPC/explore to get the majority of the story.

    What? a veteran raider like yourself can't just make a squad and go do a raid with 10 random people like raiders suggest casual do to learn raids?

    He definitely could. He just chose not to do it.

    I don't know, given how much Raiders, notably both you and Tex, extolled upon how much you love raids and how in some cases even made the claims that it was Raids that kept you playing, it seems off that any of you wound't be playing it if you could.

    I mean, I would fully understand if you were meh about them.. but both of you are very passionate about them.

    So it's not lining for me that anyone would activity chose not to play content they loved and were passionate about, as I play the content I enjoy, you will always find me doing the things in game that I have praised on the forums, no matter who else in my guild or circle of friends is on, even if that means I have pure pug some of the content.

    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    It has its logic and I've seen many raiders do like him. I, myself, have sometimes.

    Loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will do ALL the raids, and loving raids does not necessarily mean that you will raid no matter what. A lot of raiders only raid if it's with their people, their guild, their static. Not everyone is willing to pug and there are reasons for that.

    When W5 was released I did not do anything there until I did it with my static or my guild. I did not want to pug it, for a variety of reasons including me not being comfortable pugging certain bosses. It happens to be with Xera and it happens, too, with Dhuum. In fact, I killed Soulless Horror the 3rd week after the release and I killed Dhuum around 2 months after the release of the wing. Just because I didn't want to pug it. And, I can assure you, I absolutely love raids.

    In fact the first time I pugged W5 was last week. I pugged the first 3 encounters, then decided to give Dhuum a try even though I felt nervous because it was going to be the first time I tanked that boss with pugs. I got it with a very nice group, and had a blast because we had an SC member and some funny things happened. Maybe this week I'll try, too. I'm not quite sure yet.

    If you want the reasons why this kind of things happen, well, the list can be quite long and depends a lot on the specific player.

    Now imagine all the people who don't have a static.. how hard would it be for them to raid.. even if they wanted to, when you would not even try to step outside your static till what.. 3 years and I have no idea how many raids later before you would be willing to pug.

    When people ask why raids were badly designed this is why.. their social anxiety issues, even people who may like the content itself are driven away due to the social issues of needing to pug and learn the encounter among strangers.

    Can you seriously tell me you would have raided if you didn't have your static?

    It might come as a surprise, but I raided for a long time before joining an actual static. Nowadays I find myself pugging once again, because my static is going through a particularly rough time. Some people quit, some people rarely can make it on time and our raid sessions often get delayed or cancelled, and most often involve pugging. As a result, we often don't even clear W1-4 like we used to. So what do I do? I open LFG and raid. What else would I do?

    I think I saw you yesterday at the aerodrome. If it wasn't you then it was someone who had the same char name as your account : D

    Nah, I don't have a character named "Feanor". But it is entirely possible to have seen me, I was doing late W1, W3 and Deimos kills yesterday.

    Well, then someone figured out the same name and give it to a character, it's funny. I've never been in a squad with you tho, so no idea of who you are ingame.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

    The movie example is really silly and doesn't apply to a video game.

    Look.. if you don't want to get it that's on you. It does not change anything and no one is going to stay in a game that frustrates or stonewalls them, because you decided to disagree with an analogy trying to explain it to you.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Nah, I don't have a character named "Feanor". But it is entirely possible to have seen me, I was doing late W1, W3 and Deimos kills yesterday.

    Well, then someone figured out the same name and give it to a character, it's funny. I've never been in a squad with you tho, so no idea of who you are ingame.

    I think he was in our Deimos squad. If so, hes a good weaver.

  • STIHL.2489STIHL.2489 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Legendary Items are the Only Long Term goals in this game.

    I disagree,

    Disagreeing only makes you wrong.

    There are two kinds of Gamers, Salty, and Extra Salty.
    Ego is the Anesthesia that dullens the pain of Stupidity.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    We both know more people would buy a movie that they were meh about, or only really liked a small part of, then people who would buy a movie they loved with 10% removed from it.

    The movie example is really silly and doesn't apply to a video game.

    Look.. if you don't want to get it that's on you. It does not change anything and no one is going to stay in a game that frustrates or stonewalls them, because you decided to disagree with an analogy trying to explain it to you.

    But the game is not stonewalling anyone from progressing. If the players were indeed blocked from any progress or from having any other long term goals then you'd be right, but that's not what's happening here. They are adding tons of new content and new rewards to go for, that is, last I checked, not stonewalled in Raids. And the pace of release is the same as pre-Raids, it's not like they are slowing down or not releasing content outside of Raids.

    @STIHL.2489 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    Legendary Items are the Only Long Term goals in this game.

    I disagree,

    Disagreeing only makes you wrong.

    So you are now the authority on what is long term goal in this game? If you think you are then all I'll say is tone down your massive ego because you do not speak for anyone other than yourself. If you are a person that would stop supporting a game, even as it continues providing what it has always provided! Because it also provided a bit (without any slow downs or reduction in content that you like!) that it's not accessible to you, then that's your choice.

    Edit: According to your faulty logic, if Envoy Armor and Raids were never added to the game then every player would leave this game because it wouldn't have any long term rewards anymore. Well a simple newsflash: Path of Fire doesn't provide access to Envoy Armor either. I guess using your logic, of legendary being the only true long term goal, Path of Fire is a crappy expansion that nobody should buy because it doesn't offer any kind of Legendary goal.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Look at it this way: You dont like raids so if they never came out game wouldnt change. If raids never came out legendary armor wouldnt too.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Nah, I don't have a character named "Feanor". But it is entirely possible to have seen me, I was doing late W1, W3 and Deimos kills yesterday.

    Well, then someone figured out the same name and give it to a character, it's funny. I've never been in a squad with you tho, so no idea of who you are ingame.

    I think he was in our Deimos squad. If so, hes a good weaver.

    Thanks, though I might have involuntarily caused a wipe or two. I was a bit rusty on the tactic, my static goes for the mid-slack strat since we did the CM about an year ago.

  • ButterPeanut.9746ButterPeanut.9746 Member ✭✭✭

    To me, it seems like these conversations have had their time. Folks who are looking for easier access to the rewards given by wings 1-3 will want those, and IMO the number of people who disagree has dramatically dropped over the past 2 years or so.

    I think it's pretty silly at this point to be in the camp of "i don't want others to have the armor because it makes mine less important". When you reach 1200,1300,1500 LI etc...getting 150 for the armor seems pretty trivial and doesn't really impact your past accomplishments.

    So...to steer the conversation in a slightly different direction...I think the best use of our time is to discuss the "How" of this question. We've debated the "what" and the "why" over and over and over again.

    To elaborate, what specifically would we like to see changed to meet the needs of the more casual player base, and how do we realistically get there? I'll start with a question. Currently, ANET has told us their "release cadence" for this content will be a new LS patch roughly every 2-3 months, and they are trying to fit a new raid wing into approximately every other release (i.e once every 6 months). Excuse delays for the argument sake.

    For the folks who want easy mode raids developed, would it be worth it to you to delay each LS patch by an additional 2-3 months to achieve this? Maybe 1 big patch every 6 months that has a new LS patch, new fractal, new raid with easy, regular, and CM modes? Maybe it wouldn't take that long, but the idea of the topic where the resources come from.

    IMO that is the kind of discussion that will drive change. Making the easier alternatives to this content takes resources, and the only place that is fair to take those resources from is taking the place of content for the same audience. It does not make sense IMO to use the existing raid resources to develop easy modes, because that team is already fairly small and pushing out content at a pace that the raiders would say is too slow.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Look at it this way: You dont like raids so if they never came out game wouldnt change. If raids never came out legendary armor wouldnt too.

    The first mention of legendary armor (and how they are going to eventually do it) happened long before Anet even started thinking of raids. At that time they still were vehemently against any instanced content with more than 5-man player limit (they kept being asked for 8-mans then, gw1 style), saying that their research showed that 5-mans were the ideal size, and 8-man groups were just too big (which introduced problems they didn't want in the game. One of those problems was social aspect of group creation, btw).

    Legendary armor would have happened eventually even without raids. Without them it might have happened later, but they would have got to it at some point. If not with HoT, then maybe with PoF.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Teamkiller.4315Teamkiller.4315 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly i feel like future raid wings should have easier bosses at the start and harder bosses at the end. Dhuum was a pretty great end boss to start w6 fresh with. Relatively casual players could clear the start of the wing without too much trouble, it'd lower the barrier of entry, and the hardcore crowd would consider that boss to be a meme boss like MO whereas they still get their fill with hard bosses later in the wing.

    So if a hypothetical future wing had four encounters, order of difficulty would be like spirit run -> vg -> matthias -> dhuum

  • @Feanor.2358 said:
    Thanks, though I might have involuntarily caused a wipe or two. I was a bit rusty on the tactic, my static goes for the mid-slack strat since we did the CM about an year >ago.

    Dont worry. 5 people didnt need the kill to begin with and 2 others (inculding me) were on an alt account anyway.

    @ButterPeanut.9746
    and they are trying to fit a new raid wing into approximately every other release (i.e once every 6 months).

    Ben only mentioned fractals, not raids.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Teamkiller.4315 said:
    Honestly i feel like future raid wings should have easier bosses at the start and harder bosses at the end. Dhuum was a pretty great end boss to start w6 fresh with. Relatively casual players could clear the start of the wing without too much trouble, it'd lower the barrier of entry, and the hardcore crowd would consider that boss to be a meme boss like MO whereas they still get their fill with hard bosses later in the wing.

    So if a hypothetical future wing had four encounters, order of difficulty would be like spirit run -> vg -> matthias -> dhuum

    Strongly agree. I don't quite understand why hard bosses have to be the first ones of the wing. I get that "if you place them in difficulty order some people will do only the easier", but currently that's what happens anyway, and I don't think it's strong enough as a reason.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Teamkiller.4315 said:
    Honestly i feel like future raid wings should have easier bosses at the start and harder bosses at the end. Dhuum was a pretty great end boss to start w6 fresh with. Relatively casual players could clear the start of the wing without too much trouble, it'd lower the barrier of entry, and the hardcore crowd would consider that boss to be a meme boss like MO whereas they still get their fill with hard bosses later in the wing.

    So if a hypothetical future wing had four encounters, order of difficulty would be like spirit run -> vg -> matthias -> dhuum

    Strongly agree. I don't quite understand why hard bosses have to be the first ones of the wing. I get that "if you place them in difficulty order some people will do only the easier", but currently that's what happens anyway, and I don't think it's strong enough as a reason.

    Well. No first boss is actually harder than the last in any of the wings. Wing 2 is the one where the gap is probably smallest, but still Matthias is decidedly harder than Slothasor.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Teamkiller.4315 said:
    Honestly i feel like future raid wings should have easier bosses at the start and harder bosses at the end. Dhuum was a pretty great end boss to start w6 fresh with. Relatively casual players could clear the start of the wing without too much trouble, it'd lower the barrier of entry, and the hardcore crowd would consider that boss to be a meme boss like MO whereas they still get their fill with hard bosses later in the wing.

    So if a hypothetical future wing had four encounters, order of difficulty would be like spirit run -> vg -> matthias -> dhuum

    Strongly agree. I don't quite understand why hard bosses have to be the first ones of the wing. I get that "if you place them in difficulty order some people will do only the easier", but currently that's what happens anyway, and I don't think it's strong enough as a reason.

    Well. No first boss is actually harder than the last in any of the wings. Wing 2 is the one where the gap is probably smallest, but still Matthias is decidedly harder than Slothasor.

    I'm not quite sure... I mean, Gorseval is easier than VG, but VG is more forgiving because you only need decent druids and a decent tank, DPS is not a problem. But mechanically, it's harder. Gorse tho, needs a decent chunk of DPS but mechanics are whatever. And, well, I know that Matthias is mechanically more complex than Slothasor but I find Sloth much harder. It needs good coordination between several people, while in Matt the coordination is much less.

    Edit: and if we look at W5, Soulless Horror is harder than statues and river.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Teamkiller.4315 said:
    Honestly i feel like future raid wings should have easier bosses at the start and harder bosses at the end. Dhuum was a pretty great end boss to start w6 fresh with. Relatively casual players could clear the start of the wing without too much trouble, it'd lower the barrier of entry, and the hardcore crowd would consider that boss to be a meme boss like MO whereas they still get their fill with hard bosses later in the wing.

    So if a hypothetical future wing had four encounters, order of difficulty would be like spirit run -> vg -> matthias -> dhuum

    Strongly agree. I don't quite understand why hard bosses have to be the first ones of the wing. I get that "if you place them in difficulty order some people will do only the easier", but currently that's what happens anyway, and I don't think it's strong enough as a reason.

    Well. No first boss is actually harder than the last in any of the wings. Wing 2 is the one where the gap is probably smallest, but still Matthias is decidedly harder than Slothasor.

    I'm not quite sure... I mean, Gorseval is easier than VG, but VG is more forgiving because you only need decent druids and a decent tank, DPS is not a problem. But mechanically, it's harder. Gorse tho, needs a decent chunk of DPS but mechanics are whatever. And, well, I know that Matthias is mechanically more complex than Slothasor but I find Sloth much harder. It needs good coordination between several people, while in Matt the coordination is much less.

    Edit: and if we look at W5, Soulless Horror is harder than statues and river.

    Yes, of course. But I was talking about "first vs last" comparison. I don't mind bosses in the middle being easier than the first ones, it makes for a nice change of pace. I mean, I like having both. Like W1/2 are like this, then W3/4 start easy and get harder.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Teamkiller.4315 said:
    Honestly i feel like future raid wings should have easier bosses at the start and harder bosses at the end. Dhuum was a pretty great end boss to start w6 fresh with. Relatively casual players could clear the start of the wing without too much trouble, it'd lower the barrier of entry, and the hardcore crowd would consider that boss to be a meme boss like MO whereas they still get their fill with hard bosses later in the wing.

    So if a hypothetical future wing had four encounters, order of difficulty would be like spirit run -> vg -> matthias -> dhuum

    Strongly agree. I don't quite understand why hard bosses have to be the first ones of the wing. I get that "if you place them in difficulty order some people will do only the easier", but currently that's what happens anyway, and I don't think it's strong enough as a reason.

    Well. No first boss is actually harder than the last in any of the wings. Wing 2 is the one where the gap is probably smallest, but still Matthias is decidedly harder than Slothasor.

    I'm not quite sure... I mean, Gorseval is easier than VG, but VG is more forgiving because you only need decent druids and a decent tank, DPS is not a problem. But mechanically, it's harder. Gorse tho, needs a decent chunk of DPS but mechanics are whatever. And, well, I know that Matthias is mechanically more complex than Slothasor but I find Sloth much harder. It needs good coordination between several people, while in Matt the coordination is much less.

    Edit: and if we look at W5, Soulless Horror is harder than statues and river.

    Yes, of course. But I was talking about "first vs last" comparison. I don't mind bosses in the middle being easier than the first ones, it makes for a nice change of pace. I mean, I like having both. Like W1/2 are like this, then W3/4 start easy and get harder.

    Ye, it's okay if a wing gets easier easier in the middle, but having Soulless Horror as B1 it's a huge problem for new players in that wing. It has so much RNG, it's such a dirty boss. It shouldn't be the first one. That was what I was trying to say : D

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Teamkiller.4315Teamkiller.4315 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    I think probably misspoke when i said easier and harder, i should have said easy and hard. The point is it would be a good idea imo to lower the barrier of entry by making the first encounter of future wings accessible to the average player. Spirit run, escort, river of souls comes to mind for that. Easy as that, except in boss form.

  • TexZero.7910TexZero.7910 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @STIHL.2489 said:
    So.. for the sale of enlightenment, so that I can understand this better, @TexZero.7910 can you explain to me why the sudden choice to not raid, when you could?

    I haven't done wing 5 because as i clearly stated my static is bored with GW2. Not any other reason, i could jump in join an LFG and be just fine, i just choose not to at this time because i want to experience it with that group of people, nothing more nothing less.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have to say i dont understand the other side of the argument. Can you please answer these questions?
    1) what makes the game fun for you?
    2) why do you want to raid?
    3) what do you think is locking you from raids
    4) do you have ascended gear/enough gold to easily get it?
    5) do you enjoy every gw2 content exept raids? (And which not)

    Thanks for answers. For me games are fun only if you can get better (and beeing better makes a diference) and it takes all my attention. If i can be distracted i lose interest and dont enjoy it anymore. I use games to distract my mind and those kind of games have many things i can solve.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Teamkiller.4315 said:
    Honestly i feel like future raid wings should have easier bosses at the start and harder bosses at the end. Dhuum was a pretty great end boss to start w6 fresh with. Relatively casual players could clear the start of the wing without too much trouble, it'd lower the barrier of entry, and the hardcore crowd would consider that boss to be a meme boss like MO whereas they still get their fill with hard bosses later in the wing.

    So if a hypothetical future wing had four encounters, order of difficulty would be like spirit run -> vg -> matthias -> dhuum

    Strongly agree. I don't quite understand why hard bosses have to be the first ones of the wing. I get that "if you place them in difficulty order some people will do only the easier", but currently that's what happens anyway, and I don't think it's strong enough as a reason.

    Well. No first boss is actually harder than the last in any of the wings. Wing 2 is the one where the gap is probably smallest, but still Matthias is decidedly harder than Slothasor.

    I'm not quite sure... I mean, Gorseval is easier than VG, but VG is more forgiving because you only need decent druids and a decent tank, DPS is not a problem. But mechanically, it's harder. Gorse tho, needs a decent chunk of DPS but mechanics are whatever. And, well, I know that Matthias is mechanically more complex than Slothasor but I find Sloth much harder. It needs good coordination between several people, while in Matt the coordination is much less.

    Edit: and if we look at W5, Soulless Horror is harder than statues and river.

    Yes, of course. But I was talking about "first vs last" comparison. I don't mind bosses in the middle being easier than the first ones, it makes for a nice change of pace. I mean, I like having both. Like W1/2 are like this, then W3/4 start easy and get harder.

    Ye, it's okay if a wing gets easier easier in the middle, but having Soulless Horror as B1 it's a huge problem for new players in that wing. It has so much RNG, it's such a dirty boss. It shouldn't be the first one. That was what I was trying to say : D

    I can agree with that, SH is a bit too much.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    He's saying locked out as not enjoying the content only on response to people like Ohoni claiming the same about raids.

    It's obvious that no one is locked out of any content. He's not locked out of OW but neither is Ohoni from raids. But since some people keep insisting on this false argument, he makes an (obviously ironic) analogy.

    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    B... Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game? This game has different things, let's just acknowledge that and let's also acknowledge that enjoying a lesser % of the game does not mean that you have less right to complain or that the game is not for you. Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    I was curious Nia, hence why I asked... it’s like buying a car, where you hate the make and model, the colour and how it handles, all it’s features, but love the leather interior, it’s perplexing.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    He's saying locked out as not enjoying the content only on response to people like Ohoni claiming the same about raids.

    It's obvious that no one is locked out of any content. He's not locked out of OW but neither is Ohoni from raids. But since some people keep insisting on this false argument, he makes an (obviously ironic) analogy.

    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    B... Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game? This game has different things, let's just acknowledge that and let's also acknowledge that enjoying a lesser % of the game does not mean that you have less right to complain or that the game is not for you. Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Ohoni.6057 said:

    @nia.4725 said:
    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    Not really the same thing. Raids have a much steeper barrier of entry.

    Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game?

    Kinda?

    Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    At the very least, this should disqualify you from deciding what GW2 should or should not do moving forward. I have no problem with people who only raids and do not engage with the entire rest of the game, so long as they don't make proclamations that people who do enjoy all those things "aren't deserving" of things that are in raids. If it would make more players happy to have access to those elements, then people who only raid should not have some right to gatekeep those features from them

    Hope you relise that raiding basicaly lose you gold. And i do not play only raid. I play dungeons, fractals, raids and story. I sometimes do other stuff for short time. More importantly i am paying customer so i have same right to state my to decide gw2 future as you do.

    Ok so you do PvE besides raids , your statements before seemed odd because it sounded like you just raid and that’s that.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    He's saying locked out as not enjoying the content only on response to people like Ohoni claiming the same about raids.

    It's obvious that no one is locked out of any content. He's not locked out of OW but neither is Ohoni from raids. But since some people keep insisting on this false argument, he makes an (obviously ironic) analogy.

    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    B... Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game? This game has different things, let's just acknowledge that and let's also acknowledge that enjoying a lesser % of the game does not mean that you have less right to complain or that the game is not for you. Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    I was curious Nia, hence why I asked... it’s like buying a car, where you hate the make and model, the colour and how it handles, all it’s features, but love the leather interior, it’s perplexing.

    That's a bad analogy. GW2 is not a car, it's more like a theme park. You pay to have access to the theme park, but you don't have to like all the rides. You don't even need to like the majority of them.

    I absolutely love Port Aventura and every time I go there, I do it mainly for three things: Furius Baco, Tutuki Splash and Hurakan Condor. Port Aventura has hundreds of different places and rides. Does that mean that Port Aventura is not made for me? Naaaah.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    He's saying locked out as not enjoying the content only on response to people like Ohoni claiming the same about raids.

    It's obvious that no one is locked out of any content. He's not locked out of OW but neither is Ohoni from raids. But since some people keep insisting on this false argument, he makes an (obviously ironic) analogy.

    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    B... Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game? This game has different things, let's just acknowledge that and let's also acknowledge that enjoying a lesser % of the game does not mean that you have less right to complain or that the game is not for you. Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    I was curious Nia, hence why I asked... it’s like buying a car, where you hate the make and model, the colour and how it handles, all it’s features, but love the leather interior, it’s perplexing.

    That's a bad analogy. GW2 is not a car, it's more like a theme park. You pay to have access to the theme park, but you don't have to like all the rides. You don't even need to like the majority of them.

    I absolutely love Port Aventura and every time I go there, I do it mainly for three things: Furius Baco, Tutuki Splash and Hurakan Condor. Port Aventura has hundreds of different places and rides. Does that mean that Port Aventura is not made for me? Naaaah.

    Well obviously it’s not a car... that’s why I used an analogy, silly.

    a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

  • nia.4725nia.4725 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    He's saying locked out as not enjoying the content only on response to people like Ohoni claiming the same about raids.

    It's obvious that no one is locked out of any content. He's not locked out of OW but neither is Ohoni from raids. But since some people keep insisting on this false argument, he makes an (obviously ironic) analogy.

    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    B... Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game? This game has different things, let's just acknowledge that and let's also acknowledge that enjoying a lesser % of the game does not mean that you have less right to complain or that the game is not for you. Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    I was curious Nia, hence why I asked... it’s like buying a car, where you hate the make and model, the colour and how it handles, all it’s features, but love the leather interior, it’s perplexing.

    That's a bad analogy. GW2 is not a car, it's more like a theme park. You pay to have access to the theme park, but you don't have to like all the rides. You don't even need to like the majority of them.

    I absolutely love Port Aventura and every time I go there, I do it mainly for three things: Furius Baco, Tutuki Splash and Hurakan Condor. Port Aventura has hundreds of different places and rides. Does that mean that Port Aventura is not made for me? Naaaah.

    Well obviously it’s not a car... that’s why I used an analogy, silly.

    a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

    " That's a bad analogy. " First sentence.

    Handkiter slave. / Cat Fletcher, Cho Jinri, Elettra Hart, Anima Schirmer, La Que Ama, B I T T E R N E S S

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2018

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:

    @nia.4725 said:

    @Tyson.5160 said:
    I’ve heard you claim this before Butcher, but I’m curious on a couple things:

    A ) did you get an insta 80 boost, as you would have had to play open world to obviously get to 80?

    B ) is this really the game for you, if you hate like 90% of the content?

    He's saying locked out as not enjoying the content only on response to people like Ohoni claiming the same about raids.

    It's obvious that no one is locked out of any content. He's not locked out of OW but neither is Ohoni from raids. But since some people keep insisting on this false argument, he makes an (obviously ironic) analogy.

    So, A doesn't really make sense. Ofc he can access OW, but everyone can access raids too.

    B... Really, if you don't enjoy OW or PvP or WvW that means that GW2 is not your game? This game has different things, let's just acknowledge that and let's also acknowledge that enjoying a lesser % of the game does not mean that you have less right to complain or that the game is not for you. Big news, now if the only content you really enjoy is raids, GW2 is not for you.

    I was curious Nia, hence why I asked... it’s like buying a car, where you hate the make and model, the colour and how it handles, all it’s features, but love the leather interior, it’s perplexing.

    That's a bad analogy. GW2 is not a car, it's more like a theme park. You pay to have access to the theme park, but you don't have to like all the rides. You don't even need to like the majority of them.

    I absolutely love Port Aventura and every time I go there, I do it mainly for three things: Furius Baco, Tutuki Splash and Hurakan Condor. Port Aventura has hundreds of different places and rides. Does that mean that Port Aventura is not made for me? Naaaah.

    Well obviously it’s not a car... that’s why I used an analogy, silly.

    a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.

    And your analogy was poorly picked. But let's use it anyway. Say I hate the make, the model, the color and the handles. But I love how it drives. Still perplexing?

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