S/D Condi Discussion thread

For Sly and Azuka to continue their battle for the ages. :p

Tldr: S/D condi builds, are they op or not and how to fight them (pvp and WvW).

If I got here just few Seconds earlier, I would have done exactly this. Thank you =D

EDIT: I just realized Forums have Emotes now.... it is gonna get Personal!

I'd disagree with most of that. First, it's effective so hard to call it "trash." Second, hard to qualify the player as "trash" for using an effective build. People throw around the word trash more than they need to. Aimbot is pretty much all projectile weapons in GW2 so I'm a bit confused by that comparison. Many melee attacks come with assists as well.

I'm also not sure why teleporting around would be boring. I've fought against S/D, and it can be some of the most challenging fast paced 1v1 fights out there. Even going back years the best fights were the ones that had a nice pace to them.

Personally, I prefer to play other builds myself, but that is more a habit than anything else. Next time I feel the urge to play Sword i'll probably give it a chance if it remains decent at that point.

So apparently my post got removed? Great. Guess we have to talk to one another like we're children if we wan't to have a discussion.

A build can be trash while being effective. It's trash because it only works to instill bad habits into players who don't know any better. Thief isn't supposed to be about spamming away all of your initiative and dodge meter by alternating 2 and dodge. Its about looking for windows to attack, learning to recognize and dodge your opponent's keystone abilities, and subsequent counter-play. There's none of that in S/D. Its just spam 2+dodge and collect easy and unearned victory. It's basically the new vault-spam pvp build.

The aimbot is a reference to people who play competitive fps and instead of learning to get better at the game, just cheat or rely on exploits for victory. They're not accomplishing anything, they're not pitting their skills against the skills of other players and feeling the achievement of coming out on top. They're pressing a button and getting a victory screen, and a lot of the players are patting themselves on the back as if they won through their skill.

If I want to teleport around, I'll go d/p. Its challenging to face an S/D who knows what they're doing, but I assure you that the effort you're putting into fighting them is one-sided. They're just spamming 2 and dodge. You could change the players completely and you'd face the same exact fight.

There is no debate. You can't defend this build.

Were people actually defending s/d condi thief??!!!!?? Please tell me it ain't so

"Just spamming 2 and dodge." Tell me, how much damage is that?

When i compare the effort you have to put in any fight as a power S/D vs condi S/D i feel gutted...

How so Saku? As I recall they added unblockable to some attacks and the damage is solid (I've been smacked around by a few sword users recently and the damage pressure is good).

Maybe i recall more things since i played S/D from the beginning (but not maining the set from the beginning) and i remember all the stuffs we lost along the years. Before HoT power S/D way of dealing dmg was relaying a lot on procs via air/ fire sigils and I'm sorry but FS unblockable (nice to finally see it on FS) and the nice bost on LS (20% on no boon target) are not enough to pressure good players. I really feel the difference and damages calculator at the end of the game confirmed my feeling... yet i hit targets more often due to FS/LS both unblockable.

@Saku Joe.2857 said:When i compare the effort you have to put in any fight as a power S/D vs condi S/D i feel gutted...

This is pretty much what I've been saying. S/D is not OP, its just too easy. And builds that are too easy and still_ allow you to win aren't healthy for any game.

I love S/D power, and I rarely lose a 1v1 with it - however it's required to play well to actually defeat your opponent.I also love S/D condi, in which again, I rarely lose a 1v1 with it - though the effort I put forth to win with S/D condi is a fraction of what I have to do when playing power.

The build is pretty fun and annoying to deal with sometime but it's hardly enough to call it broken or op.

I want to add that a good power S/D player can be very difficult to fight against for me because they don't spam the same moves over and over, but S/D Condi typically drops even faster that D/D Condi for me when I'm playing P/D Condi. The reason for this is that they (S/D Condi players) use all their initiative on IS and IR, and they dodge spam for damage. On P/D Condi, I can immobilize them from range, which poisons them, and then I dodge IS to create even more distance. They eventually cannot clear immobilized and they die, and if I hit dagger 5 + steal and then blast them with bleeds out of stealth with basi venom, it's even worse for them. The same pretty much goes for D/D Condi. I don't see why people would use either over P/D Condi, and I tested it myself to see how it is and neither S/D nor D/D are better than P/D for burst or sustain on single targets. One could argue in favor of D/D for hitting multiple targets if one could survive it. However, it will drop quickly from CC. Those builds don't use dash like P/D, so I think you let your team down when you play them in pvp due to a lack of mobility, especially when facing lots of CC professions.

@Sontaran.5904 said:I want to add that a good power S/D player can be very difficult to fight against for me because they don't spam the same moves over and over, but S/D Condi typically drops even faster that D/D Condi for me when I'm playing P/D Condi. The reason for this is that they (S/D Condi players) use all their initiative on IS and IR, and they dodge spam for damage. On P/D Condi, I can immobilize them from range, which poisons them, and then I dodge IS to create even more distance. They eventually cannot clear immobilized and they die, and if I hit dagger 5 + steal and then blast them with bleeds out of stealth with basi venom, it's even worse for them. The same pretty much goes for D/D Condi. I don't see why people would use either over P/D Condi, and I tested it myself to see how it is and neither S/D nor D/D are better than P/D for burst or sustain on single targets. One could argue in favor of D/D for hitting multiple targets if one could survive it. However, it will drop quickly from CC. Those builds don't use dash like P/D, so I think you let your team down when you play them in pvp due to a lack of mobility, especially when facing lots of CC professions.

For some reason, I could not edit my own post, but I meant S/D Condi drops faster than D/D Condi from my P/D Condi build, which uses DA, TR, and DD traits with Dash. Also, I meant that I tend to burst out of stealth with my pistol 1 and typically wait to use basi venom until that burst, which turns them to stone and gives me free shots and allows me to use pistol 2 right after for the immobilize (plus poison from panic strike). A lot of the time, other thieves are almost downed before they can try to cleanse if I surprise them or time it right. Against S/D, I am using dash so if I dash in the direction they came from with their IS, I will be right where they use their IR after missing their IS, and then I get free shots again and they have limited initiative to attack me with. Also, having 2 more dashes left will allow me to dodge IS again since they are almost always going to try and use it again, and at that point I can decide to use Pistol/Dagger 3 to create some space if I am too close, or I can pressure from 600-900 range with Pistol 2 or utilities. I am still having a hard time understanding why the S/D Condi build has been hard for people to fight against, but I have my own bias since I think my build counters it well. Also, D/P meta thief seems to counter it well, and thieves that have dash are going to be able to offer more to their teams in pvp matches most of the time in my opinion.

@Sontaran.5904

Per a recent dev post everyone with five posts and an account older than 72 hours will be receiving unlimited editing rights.

New accounts will be limited to 4 hours of editing time.

@saerni.2584 said:@Sontaran.5904

Per a recent dev post everyone with five posts and an account older than 72 hours will be receiving unlimited editing rights.

New accounts will be limited to 4 hours of editing time.

I did 1 post from mobile and 1 from desktop and noticed that I could edit my desktop but not my mobile post. It could be a limitation off the mobile site. EDIT: I just tested and now it edits from mobile, so maybe I was outside of the time window like you said.

@saerni.2584 said:"Just spamming 2 and dodge." Tell me, how much damage is that?

It'll take a marauder thief from 100% health to 50% health.

@Jinks.2057 said:

@saerni.2584 said:"Just spamming 2 and dodge." Tell me, how much damage is that?

It won't, it will only do that with Spider Venom. And this is if they stand in the Caltrops and don't cleanse.

And let's not forget that damage is over the course of 6-7 secs not anywhere near instantly.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@saerni.2584 said:"Just spamming 2 and dodge." Tell me, how much damage is that?

Yes its DoT and it'll drop the aforementioned health in that time. The immob will make sure you keep in the caltrops to stack a few bleeds. This is why S/D is so good b/c you can whittle ppl down w/out really committing yourself to the fight. Once they blow their clears/heals you just dumpster them and /laugh while they die.

The build needs to go and there's no defense for it.

@Jinks.2057 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Jinks.2057 said:

@saerni.2584 said:"Just spamming 2 and dodge." Tell me, how much damage is that?

Except you don't have to blow all clears, 1 clear will take care of the majority of the Condies since there are only 2 Condies.

The Immob is only 1 1/2 second.. with the S/D build

It's called managing clears.

I'm not going to argue with you or point out cover condi etc.

I'll just say the people at the top of the ladder agree with me.

Thanks

Because editing isn't a thing yet

Some Armchair math here, based on your claim of IS and one Dodge can cause 1/2 of Marauder Thief Health:

IS -2 stacks of Poison with Potent Poisoner and Panic Strike, Doing 2714 damage total over 8 seconds.

Bleed 5 stacks, 2 from Caltrops 3 from Lotus Training doing 1221 over 8 secs.

Torment 3 stacks from Lotus training dealing 514 over 6 secs

These number s include the 10% damage boost.

This all equals to 4449 over 8 seconds of time which is barely 27% of a Marauder Thief's health when rounding up, so IS and a Dodge does not deal 50% of a Thieves health in damage, only 26% over 8 seconds.

Now add in 2 other Skills and 3 other traits i can do over 50% damage in 8 seconds.

Edit had to correct values.

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Because editing isn't a thing yet

Some Armchair math here, based on your claim of IS and one Dodge can cause 1/2 of Marauder Thief Health:

IS -2 stacks of Poison with Potent Poisoner and Panic Strike, Doing 2714 damage total over 8 seconds.

Bleed 5 stacks, 2 from Caltrops 3 from Lotus Training doing 1221 over 8 secs.

Torment 3 stacks from Lotus training dealing 514 over 6 secs

These number s include the 10% damage boost.

This all equals to 4449 over 8 seconds of time which is barely 27% of a Marauder Thief's health when rounding up, so IS and a Dodge does not deal 50% of a Thieves health in damage, only 26% over 8 seconds.

Now add in 2 other Skills and 3 other traits i can do over 50% damage in 8 seconds.

Edit had to correct values.

I already showed you 2 and dodge does 50% of your life then proceeded to whip you in a duel.

After that I beat you in a d/p meta mirror duel.

I don't even thief until I started this s/d condi mess lol

@Azukas.1426 said:

@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:Because editing isn't a thing yet

Some Armchair math here, based on your claim of IS and one Dodge can cause 1/2 of Marauder Thief Health:

IS -2 stacks of Poison with Potent Poisoner and Panic Strike, Doing 2714 damage total over 8 seconds.

Bleed 5 stacks, 2 from Caltrops 3 from Lotus Training doing 1221 over 8 secs.

Torment 3 stacks from Lotus training dealing 514 over 6 secs

These number s include the 10% damage boost.

This all equals to 4449 over 8 seconds of time which is barely 27% of a Marauder Thief's health when rounding up, so IS and a Dodge does not deal 50% of a Thieves health in damage, only 26% over 8 seconds.

Now add in 2 other Skills and 3 other traits i can do over 50% damage in 8 seconds.

Edit had to correct values.

That was with Spider Poison on not just IS and Dodge. Quite different scenario.!

And on the not playing Thief that was proven wrong.

No counter to being Immobed in a caltrops field? Are you serious? Do you really think other classes do not have the ability to break an immob?

Heres a simple counter using a THIEF.

Use Withdraw. Withdraw has a lower ICD then does Caltrops. Withdraw will also remove crippled and torment. That does not leave a lot of cover condtions left to get those posion ticks working.

@babazhook.6805 said:No counter to being Immobed in a caltrops field? Are you serious? Do you really think other classes do not have the ability to break an immob?

Heres a simple counter using a THIEF.

Use Withdraw. Withdraw has a lower ICD than does Caltrops. Withdraw will also remove crippled and torment. That does not leave a lot of cover conditions left to get those poison ticks working.

They're talking about the caltrops that drop on dodge from the trickery trait "Uncatchable" combined with the damaging conditions from pre-casting Spider Venom and the FURTHER condition application of the daredevil "Lotus Training" dodge, not the skill Caltrops, which has an undeniably low cool-down of "as fast as you can dodge". By the same token, using Unhindered Combatant on thief removes cripple, chill, and immobilize and also carries you enough distance to get out of pretty much any aoe field.

Edit: Added trait names for clarity. Also it is notable that the sword/dagger option may provide you with extra evasiveness and an immobilize, but if you instead use a shortbow, cast Choking Gas and then Infiltrator's Arrow, you should arrive at about the same time as your poison field. Then you do the same dodge away, which will trigger a whirl finisher from Impaling lotus (poison bolts), drop caltrops, and daze the target for every subsequent second of choking gas. This is admittedly trickier than "Press 2, dodge, press 2" but also applies significantly greater condition pressure and allows for greater utility on swap.