Just a reminder dagger still sucks

Anet please it's been six months, give our bad boy some uttilty instead of reworking classes that didnt want to be reworked

What is dagger ? /s

Dagger was a bad pick for Soulbeast. It could have been anything and it would be better. I felt like Hammer Bunny Thumper would have fit with Soulbeast. ''Hey ! Let's make a minor that is completely unrelated to the daggers !''

Due to an existent dagger trait they didnt felt it would be needed.Due to unexplainable reasons they decided that a minor related to CC is a good idea although condi soulbeast dies not reallly have CC.Dagger itself isnt a bad weapon if you look only on how it handles, but its gap closer makes you to a big target and the second skill only really has dmg and no utility, nor something that makes it distinct from the AA.

Dagger AA is fine IMO it could be faster though IMO. It really feels fast and fluid with quickness but slightly to slow without. A tweak there would be nice.Dagger 2 has no utility and is nearly indistinguishable from AA. Id say make a new animation where the attack is vertically and not horizontal, speed should stay as is.The attack should apply heavy poison stacks instead of heavy bleeds to have synergy with PC.The pet attack should daze to have synergy with TaV or root and TaV gets reworked.

We could exchange dagger skills from necro and ranger :D

So you get the worst weapon ingame and we get a decent one xD

@Nimon.7840 said:We could exchange dagger skills from necro and ranger :D

So you get the worst weapon ingame and we get a decent one xD

1) there's more to the game than pve2) scourge has one of the best elite spec weapons3) necro dagger has always been fantastic for PvP5) at least necro dagger has full synergy with necro traits4) go try ranger mh dagger against anyone, they're gonna take the damn thing and beat you on the head with it.Instead how bout we get sweet that torch and you can have mh dagger

@"Krispera.5087" said:What is dagger ? /s

Dagger was a bad pick for Soulbeast. It could have been anything and it would be better. I felt like Hammer Bunny Thumper would have fit with Soulbeast. ''Hey ! Let's make a minor that is completely unrelated to the daggers !''

Ya I've felt hammer would've made slot more sense here too and they should maybe saved dagger for a spec that gave us venoms or gasp preparations

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Due to an existent dagger trait they didnt felt it would be needed.Due to unexplainable reasons they decided that a minor related to CC is a good idea although condi soulbeast dies not reallly have CC.Dagger itself isnt a bad weapon if you look only on how it handles, but its gap closer makes you to a big target and the second skill only really has dmg and no utility, nor something that makes it distinct from the AA.

Dagger AA is fine IMO it could be faster though IMO. It really feels fast and fluid with quickness but slightly to slow without. A tweak there would be nice.Dagger 2 has no utility and is nearly indistinguishable from AA. Id say make a new animation where the attack is vertically and not horizontal, speed should stay as is.The attack should apply heavy poison stacks instead of heavy bleeds to have synergy with PC.The pet attack should daze to have synergy with TaV or root and TaV gets reworked.

Dagger AA is terrible in pvp, that 4 as chain is hard to cycle through with it's speed and remember it's not ranged so it usually means you'll only land it if the target is immobilized

More and more I feel it would've been a better as hyrbid or strait up power weapon. Condi just feels so boring on soulbeast, there's no let interaction and aside from predators cunning it's got zero synergy with our traits, maybe the quickness one?We'd have to do damage info conditions like burning for the might and boons to make sense in PvP senario, the only reason it does so much damage in pve is that you have lots of time to stack those conditions,1) target doesn't move or cleanse or have resistance

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:We could exchange dagger skills from necro and ranger :D

So you get the worst weapon ingame and we get a decent one xD

That's a joke right. Necro MH dagger is the worst choice of necro weapons.I've never ever seen anyone running around with dagger. Guess why. Because it's fantastic?!

Give you torch so that necro doesn't have a fantastic oh weapon either? No thanks. Your torch isn't that bad as well.

And I played a lot of dagger soulbeast. Dagger/dagger + GS in wvw. It was pretty good. I enjoyed playing it. Pewpew longbow is just so annoying

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:We could exchange dagger skills from necro and ranger :D

So you get the worst weapon ingame and we get a decent one xD

Lol what killing upleveled pugs and npcs ? I've played my share of melee ranger even in pvp and it's not that it's bad it's that well people can just walk away, plus mh dagger is the worst weapon you can use for that build, and why wouldn't you go sword, mh dagger gives you nothing in comparison. (Sword has a double leap that you just about face for and a evade and not too bad power damage for it's AA)It's objectively bad in any pvp senario. Small wonder you don't see any high level rangers using it in pvp (if anyone does show me I've yet to see a good build with it.)What makes a weapon good in a pvp senario? uttilty period. Damage is great but uttilty is better if you can get the damage from somewhere else.

Lol now your just purposely being ignorant it used to be a staple of Condi reaper builds using it bounce conditions and lock down targets. And it hits at range. Scepter is just a better pick because it has synergy and has the pressure it needs since it got buffed last year. Also nobody runs the plauge sign/ epidemic combo anymore that used dagger.

Oh you got an elite spec weapon that is actually good since it does damage and has amazing utility? I want that too.

Soulbeast is a good spec but its mh weapon is not.

Hell you can even go double shortbow and do 2k less dps still over 30k (that's only cause you loose the burning from torch) and off hand torch is also not good why cause it lacks uttilty, you can make it work with druid that's because you can lock people with ancient seeds and have loads uttilty with cele form.. for example off hand dagger works very well on power builds en though it's clearly a condition weapon, simply because it's an extra evade and crippling talon is a nice low health finisher,Hell our elite spec weapon can't even proc our minor trait in soulbeast. Most of soulbeasts traits buff power damage yet our wepaon is Condi focused? What.

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:We could exchange dagger skills from necro and ranger :D

So you get the worst weapon ingame and we get a decent one xD

Do you really want to discuss about utility with a necro player?Show me those evades, blocks, leaps,teleports on necro weapons. You won't find any.

And nobody ever played dagger mainhand. It was gs+ scepter/dagger/warhorn for Condi buildsAnd GS + axe/warhorn for power builds anything else was never ever used.Sure I tried to play with it on scourge just because the 3second immob. Everything else on this weapon is trash. And even this immob is pretty bad because of 1 second casttime

Oh and go back to snowcrows website and try to tell me again that MH dagger is bad. Its at 32k DPS stanceshare not included.

@Nimon.7840 said:

Do you really want to discuss about utility with a necro player?Show me those evades, blocks, leaps,teleports on necro weapons. You won't find any.

Cause sure we do have all those with mh dagger right?And nobody ever played dagger mainhand. It was gs+ scepter/dagger/warhorn for Condi buildsAnd GS + axe/warhorn for power builds anything else was never ever used.You know, the game didn't launch with HoT.

Oh and go back to snowcrows website and try to tell me again that MH dagger is bad. Its at 32k DPS stanceshare not included.So in an ideal situation, where you're counting your auto attacks, not being interrupted, on a single target static golem it does that, but can it epi bounce and barrier through mechanics tho? Is it used in any raid or fractal record?? Is it used in any high level pvp tournament winner or organized wvw guild?

@Nimon.7840

Do you really want to discuss about utility with a necro player?Show me those evades, blocks, leaps,teleports on necro weapons. You won't find any.

And nobody ever played dagger mainhand. It was gs+ scepter/dagger/warhorn for Condi buildsAnd GS + axe/warhorn for power builds anything else was never ever used.Sure I tried to play with it on scourge just because the 3second immob. Everything else on this weapon is trash. And even this immob is pretty bad because of 1 second casttime

Oh and go back to snowcrows website and try to tell me again that MH dagger is bad. Its at 32k DPS stanceshare not included.

Your first point, necro has crazy utitlity, aoe dps, rips and witch scourge quite a bit of mobility and supporting, its a fantastic team fighter probably the best in the game.

Your second point: yes it did see quite a bit of use in wvw when you bounced condis or used it cleanse some power builds would use dagger (namely core necro i think its even decent in dungeons/facs atm just gets out classed by its elite, even then its a core spec weapon. (and even than why are you here arguing on the ranger forums go post about it on the necro one)

Your third point: this whole time Ive been hammering it for being bad for anything not pve (even in pve you can do even comparable dps with running double shortbow) a raid build is not a good judge of weather a weapon by itself is good or not as alot of condi rangers dps comes from its utility skills (hence why until soulbeast, condi base ranger was a solid go to for dps) and raid builds assume that your target does not cleanse and you have 25 stacks of might quickness and alacrity and 25 stacks of vuln on the target (on top of all the other profession buffs). Not to mention you have to completely spec into that to even get anything close to that and ramp up the damage, its really only effective for targets that have high health pools and can't cleanse. on top of the real damage comming from the forth swing which is asking for alot in a pvp scenario

Once again show me some good dagger pvp/wvw gameplay you wont find, ( theres only one I can think of that has 1 good fight in his whole is potato veg and he even says that dagger sucks too and he only used it in wvw against some scrubs) You wont find any plat rangers running MH daggeras any ranger worth his salt knows its useless in a pvp scenario and the few times peopled do use it they coul've done better with a sword even on a condi focused build. why because a weapon with shit utility sucks. Ive tried to make the weapon work with any type of build possible every-time I find it just get demolished by any class, the only classa) it requires you to stick and say in melee for awhile to do any respcetable damage currently its super risky to melee as guards, mesmers, warriors and necros will just eat you aliveb) no cc means you cant lock your target into your burst so all they have to do is strafe and boom you lost your pressurec) the damage it does does not hit hard in pvp or wvw at all, you have to get 10-20 stacks for bleed and poison to actually pressure. once gain inorder to raid damage you have to give up your cleanse and stunbreaks which just aint gunna cut it against any well built classthe only class I can actually use it to land hits on is other rangers as you can often times burn out rangers cleanses if you plus one them on a point and lock em down first.

Its rotation is mind numbing simple and has almost zero synergy with soulbeast (give any main hand ranger weapon some condis on its auto and it will be almost just as good) as soulbeast traits buffs power damage and its a condi weapon, in fact it be better as a core spec weapon, it has not interesting game play with soul beast, its a number pve high health target weapon. for example ranger GS has amazing synergy with soulbeast not only is the line its located in have a synergistic effect ( beast master gives its buff to the ranger when merged) with soulbeast but it has CC which synergies with twice as vicious, it and maul either makes your pet hit hard for a sweet combo or you hit harder for another combo.

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Due to an existent dagger trait they didnt felt it would be needed.Due to unexplainable reasons they decided that a minor related to CC is a good idea although condi soulbeast dies not reallly have CC.Dagger itself isnt a bad weapon if you look only on how it handles, but its gap closer makes you to a big target and the second skill only really has dmg and no utility, nor something that makes it distinct from the AA.

Dagger AA is fine IMO it could be faster though IMO. It really feels fast and fluid with quickness but slightly to slow without. A tweak there would be nice.Dagger 2 has no utility and is nearly indistinguishable from AA. Id say make a new animation where the attack is vertically and not horizontal, speed should stay as is.The attack should apply heavy poison stacks instead of heavy bleeds to have synergy with PC.The pet attack should daze to have synergy with TaV or root and TaV gets reworked.

Id prefer hybrid actually. I like the poison stacks (which have use in PvP) but although it would kill the weapon for closed PvE pure condi style i want the bleeds to be removed and replaced with high power strikes. 3 chain attack should be enough-> 1. Vuln and power dmg->2 . poison->3. Both

PC should be the go to dagger trait.To improve it i would simply merge oppresive superiority with PC to give it self synergy. You heal yourself when applying poison which keeps your health up, lifesteal should get a better power scaling which should deal additional dmg, and you deal more dmg and longer condi duration when your enemies health percentage is lower. So yours keeps steady enemies health goes down and you benefit from that.

@"Krispera.5087" said:I felt like Hammer Bunny Thumper would have fit with Soulbeast. ''Hey ! Let's make a minor that is completely unrelated to the daggers !''

Bunny Thumper was a build which used the pet for a majority of its damage, while the Ranger held its targets down with Hammer Bash. Together it was a potent pressure build with a lot of condis like Deep Wound and Daze.

The problem is that Bunny Thumper is distinctly a PET CLASS, so it does not mesh together with Soulbeast, which seek to eliminate the pet.

@Kain Francois.4328 said:

@"Krispera.5087" said:I felt like

Hammer

Bunny Thumper would have fit with Soulbeast. ''Hey ! Let's make a

minor

that is completely unrelated to the daggers !''

AH my friend Soulbeast just improves pet. Unfortunately, simply cause its a dps loss in pve you have to stay merged, but in pvp and wvw it just makes the pet soooo much better, keeps it alive, brings it close for pet bursts, combo with soul-beast skills and unmerge for some beautiful pet combos. In fact soulbeast is only viable if your constantly mergeing and unmerging and swaping pets in pvp

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

PC should be the go to dagger trait.To improve it i would simply merge oppresive superiority with PC to give it self synergy. You heal yourself when applying poison which keeps your health up, lifesteal should get a better power scaling which should deal additional dmg, and you deal more dmg and longer condi duration when your enemies health percentage is lower. So yours keeps steady enemies health goes down and you benefit from that.

Ya i like that idea. but what would replace the lack of the trait?

@"apocalypso.4895"I agree with your statements until the "is it ever used in raids or fractals" part. Sbeast is good DPS with dagger which is true and it is used for that and because it can increase group dmg and deal about 30-32k dps (dont pin me down on the numbers though, thats only what i remembered from SC benchmarks). Its just boring AF and it has zero utility. If sword would have a direct gap closer instead of roll out - jump in swap skill i would use it over dagger as a PvE player just because it would be better in all aspects.Dagger has a double gap closer which is nice for open PvE (and would be useful for PvP if it wouldnt lack in all other regards) everything else is just dmg.

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

PC should be the go to dagger trait.To improve it i would simply merge oppresive superiority with PC to give it self synergy. You heal yourself when applying poison which keeps your health up, lifesteal should get a better power scaling which should deal additional dmg, and you deal more dmg and longer condi duration when your enemies health percentage is lower. So yours keeps steady enemies health goes down and you benefit from that.

I could repost my reworked soulbeast rework thread here, but i did this probably 3 times over now in Sbeast discussions. Me and Wondrousswall did elaborate a whole soulbeast rework with no trait lacking. The idea is that the condition dmg line is like this:Adept Major:Oppresive superiority: Entering and leaving beastmode activates lesser vulture stance.Master Major: Predators Cunning: The upper proposalGM Major: Twice as Vicious: Unmerging Grants you the Archetype bonus drom the pet you last merged with for a short duration (10s).

Minors would be:Elevated bondLive fastFurious strength (fury gives dmg bonus and condi duration)

Ofc also made suggestion for all other traits but i keep it short today.

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

PC should be the go to dagger trait.To improve it i would simply merge oppresive superiority with PC to give it self synergy. You heal yourself when applying poison which keeps your health up, lifesteal should get a better power scaling which should deal additional dmg, and you deal more dmg and longer condi duration when your enemies health percentage is lower. So yours keeps steady enemies health goes down and you benefit from that.

Ya loved that thread, Just keep posting till they one day decide hey maybe we should take look at dagger instead of reworking every class that dosn't want or need rework., maybe we can make 3 skills have a little more interesting thought put into them, Its only a weapon we sold an expac on. I just get upset that its been 6 months and dagger is clearly in a weak spot and dosnt make sense in the context of soulbeast. yet they throwing out reworks to other classes like candy. I love all other things about soulbeast just our spec weapon is just so bad and sloppy feeling in comparrison to the other elite specs weapons.

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Eleazar.9478 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

PC should be the go to dagger trait.To improve it i would simply merge oppresive superiority with PC to give it self synergy. You heal yourself when applying poison which keeps your health up, lifesteal should get a better power scaling which should deal additional dmg, and you deal more dmg and longer condi duration when your enemies health percentage is lower. So yours keeps steady enemies health goes down and you benefit from that.

I am gonna make a ranger spec redux tgread soon. One per specialization. It will probably be purely theoretical and a huge overhaul. So not gonna happen but it could inspire some devs though.

Dagger? Well... Just anet still being overzealous with AA cast times. I mean 3/4 cast time on the last skill, I've seen some 2H weapon AA with faster activation.

Dagger for Soulbeast seems similar to Sword for Holosmith but less scaling with mechanic and condition instead of power.

Just a meh version it at best though.

@Eleazar.9478 said:

... as soulbeast traits buffs power damage and its a condi weapon, ...

This always confused me. Why did Anet do this?

I think they are slowly trying to better define weapon archetypes for ranger over time, the recent power buffs to axe mainhand and GS make me think so. The main issue is they take too long to do it, cycles as they are right now make the whole process so disgustingly slow!

@"Krispera.5087" said:What is dagger ? /s

Dagger was a bad pick for Soulbeast. It could have been anything and it would be better. I felt like Hammer Bunny Thumper would have fit with Soulbeast. ''Hey ! Let's make a minor that is completely unrelated to the daggers !''

I mean, I thought we were getting hammer too due to the stances and being bonded with our pets, and Bunny Thumper became super popular with Rampage as One which was an Elonian skill in GW1, just seemed to fit.

However, I feel like dagger is close to being good, and one thing to keep in mind with that minor is that it may not work with the 5 dagger skills we have access too, but it DOES work with all the pet CCs we have, Wyverns, Pigs, Canines, Devourers, Gazelle, Smoke Scale all have one the ranger can use as long as they’re in beast mode.

So I see the logic behind them adding twice as vicious, but I do agree that it’s a dumb (and boring) minor that really should be the suggested minor of for X seconds after you leave beast mode you maintain the stat buffs.

@OP I fully agree though, dagger feels super lacking, if there were an evade in the 3 and/or some sort of conditional (bleed stacks?) trigger on the 2 for like a daze or an immob or even self quickness and fury I feel like it’d be a much better and more fun weapon.

As Anet described it dagger is supposed to be the ranger just going full beast mode and just savagely attacking the opponent. But it doesn’t feel like it, if they wanted to use that description as a reason for not having an evade on it that’s fine, but make it at least feel that violent, and something like a KD or a daze/stun or something on it in addition to the quickness would do that, but as it is now it’s got nothing really.