Scrapper / class fix when?

When are we going to see scrapper and the base line engenieer beeing reworked?

Scrapper is unplayable and surpassed by any other class in every aspect of game mode you provide to us:

Damage dealer / tank / support

• Buff base line hammer and other weapon damage and their skills

• update skills dmg effects and traits

Place difference on Weapon skills / traits / utilities DMG / healing effects , and make them differ between PvE and PvP so the class is at least viable in both aspects without overpowering it in one of them !

Ppl are always replacing us on raids / fractals / dungeons because there are always other classes that do the same as we do but 5000000% better then us!

Scrapper more like crapper right now since the release of PoF .

If you dont know what to do to fix this class read the forum and posts with plenty useful and creative suggestions given by players.

We playing this game long enough and how long do we need to wait more to get some patch notes with a posivite news about engenieer?

Anet balance for PvP/WvW. If it's not an issue in these gamemodes then it's not an issue. Anyway, PvE is a gamemode where a lot of the game mechanisms perform poorly thus making some professions outperform others in the most simplest way.

It's sad but the scrapper like the necromancer have it's place in WvW zergs where their tools are usefull (even if it's a bit more difficult for scrapper to shine there than for a necromancer.)

PvE and PvP as I said , every game mode we are provided engenieer is being everyone.

Guild Wars 4...

@Dadnir.5038 said:Anet balances for PvP/WvW. If it's not an issue in these gamemodes then it's not an issue.

The problem is that they absolutely do not even balance for WvW. They really just focus for PvP, with occasional changes for PvE. They put any changes focused on WvW as a clear and distant third.

@coglin.1496 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:Anet balances for PvP/WvW. If it's not an issue in these gamemodes then it's not an issue.

You mean how they designed 5 Especs in a single expansion to completely obliterate a WvW meta?

This game is not only based in PvP. If so, what would be the point of Beeing one of the best mmo lore on the market?

PvP games use to be sandbox with no story content at all.

GW is not a sandbox, is way more then that. And if this game for you is only about PvP then Im sorry, but you are not playing GW2. And if you are, then You are just playing on the PvP world.

Meanwhile, other players and myself play on both worlds and, if the problem is to balance the PvP and PvE world then the solution is very simple,

different value numbers on healing and dmg for skills for each world. Making each class viable on it's roll as well as their specialisations.

If for some reason ANET balances the PvE world based on PvP then I don't know in what to believe. :/

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Anet balance for PvP/WvW. If it's not an issue in these gamemodes then it's not an issue. Anyway, PvE is a gamemode where a lot of the game mechanisms perform poorly thus making some professions outperform others in the most simplest way.

Maybe you are new, but game balance basically went like this, pre-launch the combat/skills were designed and balanced around PvP (and what Teldo and co thought), PvE & WvW were basically ignored in alpha in this regard (Sacrx, "famous" WvW player did a video on this), then for about 3 years they balanced virtually entirely around PvP and their "e-sport", then with the introduction of PvE raids they started balancing and making changes for that in addition to PvP (WvW was still ignored), including screwing over PvP & WvW with the condie changes that were for PvE because PvE players complained it was zerker or nothing, and that has been the state of balance ever since, PvP & PvE (mainly raids) get meaningful consideration, WvW gets the odd crumb.

They'll rework scrapper at the same rate that they reworked medkit.

See you in 3 more years!

@zinkz.7045 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:Anet balance for PvP/WvW. If it's not an issue in these gamemodes then it's not an issue. Anyway, PvE is a gamemode where a lot of the game mechanisms perform poorly thus making some professions outperform others in the most simplest way.

I am not new. Where you're wrong is that conditions were also changed for PvP not just for the complaint about PvE end game content being zerker or nothing. The issue with the condition pre HoT was that they were capped which made them underperforming in group content (and yes PvP and WvW are group content). The point was that, whatever the content they were playing, players that chose condition as their main damage source were punished for doing so due to the hard cap on the number of conditions any target could have. It was especially true for guardian who could only burn it's foe, making any condi spec for him terribly wastefull.

WvW is a different thing but, all in all, WvW is a gamemode where players are pit against each others which is why I grouped it with PvP. It may be hard to swallow but a lot of balance change that impacted heavily all the game were done for WvW. The target cap to boon and aoe damage or the "changes" to ranger's pet and the shout "guard!" in the first 2 years or even the change to stability for example.

Nonsense, the caps barely effected PvP, the game and those caps were designed around PvP, condi was largely fine in PvP and any issues you had were largely down to class balance, which is why at various times condi was meta for certain classes (e.g - when Teldo played, condi engy was meta for engy), the caps were changed because in PvE you had a zillion players constantly "DPSing" one target like a world boss or potentially 10 in upcoming raids, so caps got hit.

You're denying countless elementalists and guardians complaining about not having the possibility to play condi builds because burn was caped by saying that engineer was meta as condi build? Who's spouting nonsense here? The cap was a shackle on some professions that had to go for the sake of build diversity and balance not all professions had access to burn, confusion, bleed and poison.

Beside, however you put it, the cap hurt condi build in group play because due to the cap, the damage dealt by condition build was "caped", while the damage dealt by power build weren't. Contrary to what you think, condition damage weren't only a "PvE concern", you can give me whatever known player you want, it doesn't change this fact. (Beside, known or not, players tend to not look at the whole picture and have a tunneled point of view. And in a lot of thing I can relate to this but at least I try to take a step back)

As for rangers pets, please stop making me laugh, ranger pets are "famous" for being useless in WvW, the only change in WvW for pets was to stop them going into opponents objectives, everything else like leash length, damage nerfs, etc was down to PvP. (Even PvE got an actual meaningful change when when they added the damage reduction)

You clearly nerver played ranger at this time or never seen a ranger play well at this time. Fact is that in good hand a pet was deadly and very usefull in WvW, heck, I personnally abused it and enjoyed it a lot. Be it 2 shoting players on wall or destroying trebuchet/catapult with my pet while under the cover of the wall of an objectif, I enjoyed it. You can laugh all you want, it was only effective in WvW and it was nerfed due to WvW.

Which is why you have completely difference balance for the two game modes, for example you have things like engy which for most of the game have been between decent and broken OP (cele engy, scrappper pre-nerfs, etc) in PvP, where as in WvW engy has never in 6 years been meta for zergs (mostly considered useless) and had one brief period of use in guilds as a niche role (with scrapper) and even for roaming has largely been mediocre (holosmith is the exception).

What you say can be related to thieves and mesmers as well, however, saying that the engineer was bad at roaming couldn't be more false. A good engineer have always been a scary thing to encounter in WvW. As for zerg, engineer have never been "bad" but at the same time they've never been meta as well, yes, they've never been the optimal pick but they never been the worst pick either. I got the feeling that you truly underestimate what an engineer can do and have done, especially in WvW.

And it is why there is essentially no class balance in WvW and never has been, so why for example if you watched the devs play WvW last night and looked at squads, out of 50 spots, over 30 spots were taken by just 2 classes, in a game with 9 classes, zero balance.

You've got a misconception of what "balance" is and how anet try to achieve "balance". The point is that you look at what players do and say: "it's not balanced" While anet look at each profession individually, get an estimate of each core fonctionality (offense, defense, support, control) and balance these fonctionnality. The state of a group meta (and especially in zerf) is determined by the synergy between each member and the need of each gamemode, it's not determined by "class balance".

The current meta in WvW is determined by a need of heavy survivability which is provided by a scourge/firebrand synergy, this meta is the direct result of the "hole" in defense that the change on stability left shortly after HoT was released. Players were sick tired of not being able to survive an impact and being confined to the ship war meta so as soon as an heavy defensive synergy poped out, they ravenously jumped on it. And now, since there is no counter to such syergy, we are stuck with this until they add a counter, nothing more nothing less. Was the ship meta better than the scourge/firebrand meta? Is the current meta better than the GWEN hammer train was? It's difficult to really give a clear answer to that. As a long timer, I'd selfishly say that the GWEN hammer train was the best but, if I take a step back, I can see that the current meta open both melee play and range play which wasn't the case of the 2 previous meta.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:You're denying countless elementalists and guardians complaining about not having the possibility to play condi builds because burn was caped by saying that engineer was meta as condi build? Who's spouting nonsense here? The cap was a shackle on some professions that had to go for the sake of build diversity and balance not all professions had access to burn, confusion, bleed and poison.

They were just not very good builds (they still aren't good builds, nothing has changed), nothing to do with the condi cap, in the same way glassy engy was not a very good power build didn't make power have inherent flaws, ele also used condi plenty in builds like cele ele.

You can give me whatever known player you want, it doesn't change this fact. (Beside, known or not, players tend to not look at the whole picture and have a tunneled point of view. And in a lot of thing I can relate to this but at least I try to take a step back)

It wasn't about him being a known player as such, I was using him as an example of condi being part of the meta, at a high level, condi worked fine in PvP that is what those caps were set for, PvE with a zillion guys bashing on a boss on the other hand...

You clearly nerver played ranger at this time or never seen a ranger play well at this time. Fact is that in good hand a pet was deadly and very usefull in WvW, heck, I personnally abused it and enjoyed it a lot. Be it 2 shoting players on wall or destroying trebuchet/catapult with my pet while under the cover of the wall of an objectif, I enjoyed it. You can laugh all you want, it was only effective in WvW and it was nerfed due to WvW.

No, pets were useless in WvW for the things the vast majority of the playerbase do, which is zerging / guild raids, because they die too easily in those situations, they gave pets a damage reduction in PvE for the same reason, yet the damage in PvE is minuscule compared to large scale WvW. And no they weren't nerfed because of WvW, they were nerfed because of PvP and that you could do things like make a bunker build yet have pets that could do huge damage.

Not sure why you find it such a difficult concept to grasp, when they balanced this game they don't give a toss about what a tiny handful of roamers do in WvW in comparison to their "e-sport" mode which was intended to be the serious bit of their game, this is why I ask if you are new, because you obviously never watched them go through the balance changes on Twitch earlier in the game and how it was virtually all in relation to PvP.

What you say can be related to thieves and mesmers as well, however, saying that the engineer was bad at roaming couldn't be more false. A good engineer have always been a scary thing to encounter in WvW. As for zerg, engineer have never been "bad" but at the same time they've never been meta as well, yes, they've never been the optimal pick but they never been the worst pick either. I got the feeling that you truly underestimate what an engineer can do and have done, especially in WvW.

I didn't say engy was bad I said it was mediocre (until Holosmith). A good player isn't an argument for balance, a good necro can do fine roaming, but there is a reason over the life of this game there have been many more thieves, mesmers, etc as roamers than necros, I am sure if you try really hard you can work out what that reason is...

As for zergs, if you think engys contribution has been anything other than subpar over the years then that says more about your lack of knowledge than anything else, there is a reason they have never been meta or even close most of the time.

You've got a misconception of what "balance" is and how anet try to achieve "balance". The point is that you look at what players do and say: "it's not balanced" While anet look at each profession individually, get an estimate of each core fonctionality (offense, defense, support, control) and balance these fonctionnality. The state of a group meta (and especially in zerf) is determined by the synergy between each member and the need of each gamemode, it's not determined by "class balance".

The only misconception is yours that you think ANet actually give meaningful consideration to WvW balance, WvW balance is trash in every aspect.

As for class balance, you are just making irrelevant excuses, when they were doing their "e-sports" during the first 3 or 4 years, if you had the situation where half the classes were either completely unsed or barely used it would have considered a joke (go see cele ele for the time PvP briefly had balance half as bad as WvW), in a game with a handful of classes, the most important aspect of balance is in fact making sure classes are viable or at least within some meaningful distance of each other, which they achieve with PvP, and achieve to some extent in PvE, WvW on the other hand is so far from that it is laughable (60% of squads made up by two classes is beyond pathetic), and the reason is very simple, WvW gets very little balance consideration, it gets the odd thing that is all.

The current meta in WvW is determined by a need of heavy survivability which is provided by a scourge/firebrand synergy, this meta is the direct result of the "hole" in defense that the change on stability left shortly after HoT was released. Players were sick tired of not being able to survive an impact and being confined to the ship war meta so as soon as an heavy defensive synergy poped out, they ravenously jumped on it. And now, since there is no counter to such syergy, we are stuck with this until they add a counter, nothing more nothing less. Was the ship meta better than the scourge/firebrand meta? Is the current meta better than the GWEN hammer train was? It's difficult to really give a clear answer to that. As a long timer, I'd selfishly say that the GWEN hammer train was the best but, if I take a step back, I can see that the current meta open both melee play and range play which wasn't the case of the 2 previous meta.

The current meta isn't really that much different from any other in the game's life in relation to class balance (as in classes being useful), the balance has always been non-existent, it was probably "best" when guilds had a frontline, backline and focus parties, but even back then when it came to zergs out of 50 players you'd have 2 guards in every party, zero engy/ranger/thief, a couple of mesmers, so essentially half the classes were either entirely absent or used in tiny numbers like mes, whilst one class was massively overrepresentated and often had has many players on it as 5 classes combined, maybe that is your idea of "balance" in a game that had 8 classes at the time, for most people that is the opposite of balance.

WvW over the course of the game literally has had the worst balance I have ever seen in an MMORPG, which is of course because contrary to your delusion, they barely balance for the mode, to put it simply for you balance has gone like this PvP > PvE > WvW.

Arenanet mainly does "balance" based on spvp. WvWvW is the least concern when it comes to profession balance.

If core engineer would be in a good spot we would see much more engineers in WvWvW. At the moment engineer is the least played core profession in the game and even rarer in WvWvW than in pve or spvp, for a good reason. Engineer lacks synergy and oomph. Several of our trait lines an underpowered mess e.g. explosives, firearms and tools are all underpowered. You need both inventions + alchemy for survival, leaving room for variety as in WvWvW you must survive first.

Both scrapper and core engineer are in very bad spot and I have almost completely stopped played engineer, because any other professions simply gives so much more, so much easier. Note: I almost solely play WvWvW.

Arenanet should first buff core engineer, because this will also improve scrapper. Give engineer enough group support, sustain and more area damage, because these three factors are the most important factors in WvWvW. In theory core engineer can do decently good damage with perfect pve rotation using pistol/pistol or rifle and using both grenades + bomb kit + explosives + firearms line. But this is not viable in WvWvW. You will end up dead with that setup. Holosmith and other specs deal the damage much easier.

Scrapper should be the tank with lots of stability, but this also means that core alone should give enough sustain to handle a very condition heavy meta. Scrapper line alone cannot be responsible for all the sustain or it will be yet another overpowered thing. The removal of alchemical tinctures minor GM trait was a massive nerf to core engineer (we lost 13/14 condition removal skills as every elixir used to remove condition with the trait).

Recent Medkit rework was a good-intetioned, but half-hearted attempt, but sacrificied too much self-survivability. Fully altruistic skills e.g. medkit #1-2 are generally a very bad idea. They don't even self heal, because Arenanet is afraid that engineer would have too much sustain. The skills are way too small area to work well in WvWvW, where most support skills are 480-600 range. Medkit #2 in its current form is a totally useless skill, you are better off medkit #1 or doing damage or anything else.

My own experience in WvWvW is totally opposite to Arenanet. I have played WvWvW for many thousands of hours in EU and engineers are generally the easiest profession to kill (unless they manage to escape with both rocket boots + stealth gyro). A fully tanky minstrel + durability rune engineer is a not a threat, because it lacks damage.

Most engineers you see in WvWvW are holosmiths. They are generally the easiest kills in enemy zerg. Just focus an enemy engi and you get an easy loot bag.