Toning Down Maguuma

Just recently I got both expansions for this game and first I started PoF for the fact that I wanted the mounts for I heard that Maguuma is Hell on Tyria. And boy were they right. So I am making this thread as mainly as discussion and maybe hopefully getting the attention of ArenaNet. For I believe that the mobs are WAY too hostile (I am looking at you pocket raptors) and the EXP gain is so slow compared to PoF. What do you guys think and do you think that this can be fixed much like the underwater combat was fixed?

As much as a whole lot of people would love for that to happen, ANet is not big on fixing design mistakes, no matter how much of the playerbase said mistakes scared away. They have more of a "keep moving forward" approach, they'll apply what they learned from their mistakes to the next round of content, and usually, some things they inexplicably learned were mistakes, which were not.

Pocketraptors arent that bad, just make sure to use your aoe. ?

@TheMaverick.6104 said:Pocketraptors arent that bad, just make sure to use your aoe. ?

That's the entire issue with HoT, it was made difficult without any concern about interraction; it's chock full of mobs that require specific mechanics which the build or even the entire class you are playing may or may not have, and even mechanics that defy what the base game taught you was good play and buildcraft. And then you finally get fed up with the mob that's harassing you, change your build in a way that makes it less fun and you're not used to but gets you through the Grenth awful jungle, only for you to find another mob down the road that you need the specific mechanics you just removed from your build to deal with the last mob! HoT did a lot of good things it didn't get credit for in the end, as people are now finding in their many and varied critiques of PoF, but mob and small scale encounter design were not one of them.

I really, REALLY hate to tell you this, but this IS the toned down version of HoT. They've already taken the nerf bat to it once.

I don't see them doing so again. There are players that like the area, and they want to leave it for them. (And that whole not looking back thing.)

Hot needs to be nerfed overall its to hard for bormal players core difficulty in open world was best(before breakbars came)

Well, at least now I know. I guess I can just power through it. I think I will just power through the story and the exploration of the land to sate the completionist in me. For I love Maguuma and I love its motif but being a reaper I feel like I see the death side via my character rather than the other way around.

You didn't see HoT when it first came out.Trust me dude you couldn't even pass the first mission alone without dying 5000 times or almost roam the maps reaching waypoints without an escort of a friend.

HoT is much more easier now than before and the devs wont make it more easier and to be honest its fine the way it is right now.

I'm going to be that guy and say that HoT is fine. Seriously, all of the enemies have one or two gimmicks, and as soon as you recognize what that gimmick is the enemy becomes much easier..

HoT is meant to be a difficulty spike. The base game was quite easy, so when expansion time came around players were begging for something that was more challenging. HoT delivered. Mostly by front loading the burst of the smaller enemies, but still, enemies required more thought than running up and face tanking while you melee them senseless. By the time you get to HoT you've had the whole base game to learn your toon and all of its abilities, now put them to use. Rise to the challenge and git gud, because it only gets harder from here.

They need to tune up core tyria intead

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I'm going to be that guy and say that HoT is fine. Seriously, all of the enemies have one or two gimmicks, and as soon as you recognize what that gimmick is the enemy becomes much easier..

HoT is meant to be a difficulty spike. The base game was quite easy, so when expansion time came around players were begging for something that was more challenging. HoT delivered. Mostly by front loading the burst of the smaller enemies, but still it, enemies required more thought than running up and face tanking while you melee them senseless. By the time you get to HoT you've had the whole base game to learn your toon and all of its abilities, now put them to use. Rise to the challenge and git gud, because it only gets harder from here.

Yeah and I do agree that I have begun to see the mobs gimmicks but the big issue that most base attacks hit you for 2-6k and most of them also do a slow before you can move from a huge AOE that usually hits you for half of your health. And this seems to be an issue with both my melee and range characters. Don't get me wrong, I like the difficulty for it makes sense for the zone and I don't mind experimenting with builds but the hits that the enemies do alone takes the fun out of the beautiful zone that is Maguuma.

This again?

HoT is perfectly fine the way it is. I'd even argue that HoT is one of the best expansions any MMORPG has ever seen. You have unique map-design with multiple layers instead of your typical and boring flat maps and you have a high degree of replayability through meta-events. To be honest, I hate all the projectile-crap in PoF a lot more than anything in HoT. You said you already completed PoF, didn't ye? So it should be no problem for you to waltz through HoT with your mounts. One Raptor-AoE and all these cute little pocket raptors are dead.

@Raizel.8175 said:This again?

HoT is perfectly fine the way it is. I'd even argue that HoT is one of the best expansions any MMORPG has ever seen. You have unique map-design with multiple layers instead of your typical and boring flat maps and you have a high degree of replayability through meta-events. To be honest, I hate all the projectile-crap in PoF a lot more than anything in HoT. You said you already completed PoF, didn't ye? So it should be no problem for you to waltz through HoT with your mounts. One Raptor-AoE and all these cute little pocket raptors are dead.

True, true. I will say that I like the map a lot more than in something like WoW. And I haven't completed PoF because I wanted at least two of the mounts (working on the skimmer currently) and also I didn't want to spoil the story. At least all of the story instances are moderately close together.

@Conncept.7638 said:That's the entire issue with HoT, it was made difficult without any concern about interraction; it's chock full of mobs that require specific mechanics which the build or even the entire class you are playing may or may not have, and even mechanics that defy what the base game taught you was good play and buildcraft.

First, every class has AOE skills, CC Skills and in general skills that can help you deal with any HoT mob just fine.Second, the base game doesn't teach you anything about good play or builds. You can survive in Orr and kill any Risen in green gear while only auto attacking and standing still. Outside areas that were added after release (young karka in southsun for example) or new mobs added in old zones (risen nobles in Orr) the core mobs aren't even capable of fighting back.

@CrazyMinxi.6810 said:Just recently I got both expansions for this game and first I started PoF for the fact that I wanted the mounts for I heard that Maguuma is Hell on Tyria. And boy were they right. So I am making this thread as mainly as discussion and maybe hopefully getting the attention of ArenaNet. For I believe that the mobs are WAY too hostile (I am looking at you pocket raptors) and the EXP gain is so slow compared to PoF. What do you guys think and do you think that this can be fixed much like the underwater combat was fixed?

Pocket Raptors? These have never been anything else than little packets of experience walking straight to you.

Nah leave the HoT difficulty as it is. Open World is already way to easy. HoT only requires a little bit of attention on what kind of mobs are incoming an what kind of skills they use. ANet should raise core Tyria difficulty so new player don't run into the HoT wall of increased difficulty. Once you become familiar with the different types of mobs you can melt trough them.

I also think that the current difficulty is fine, even though I remember that I died so many times when I unlocked the maps for the first time (trying to complete the story mission, my friend told me "come here where I am", but pocket raptors always killed me on the way, until I logged out. Now I enjoy killing them :) ). Maybe going "full berserk" as everyone suggests, may not be the best idea here.You are still forced to ask for some help for some hp or event, and I think it's a good thing. The maps are still popular after all.

PoF on the other hand makes me rage, and I never came back there, since I completed all the achievements on its maps. It's not because mobs are difficult: it's because they are terribly annoying with their aggro/stun. I can't even open my inventory for 3 seconds that someone kills me.

Core should be harder and HoT easier. The Season 2 and 3 and PoF maps are a good example of difficulty. I didn't have that big problems in HoT when it released. But going back there and getting hit for 29'000 single damage by a shroom as a warrior is beyond ridiculous. It makes absolutely no sense to overtune damage. It is as if they accidentally increased the damage regulator by a huge margin.

the only problem i have with HoT is that some mods have OP skills, tone them down and it's fine. ( i am looking at you smokescale)

I think HoT is fine, but I will say that they could down tune the HPs from Champions to Elites now. I’m aware you can join trains or ask your guild etc, I don’t need anymore HoT Hero Points either (all 9 profs I have more or less finished HoT map completing), but for the sake of older content having less players exploring/squadding, it makes sense to down tune HoT HPs now. That is the only thing I can get behind when people claim that HoT needs an(other) nerfbat.

As for the HoT story, I did it without too much trouble the first week of release. No nerf is needed imo.

Like most people has said here, HoT has already been nerfed. I actually quit for a long time when HoT came out cause that was the time when I was just coming back to GW2 after a break. I tried playing HoT and it was bloody hard that it made me quit again.

Now tho, the maps are fun to play with random pugs for HP train and meta events. The HP bosses are definitely harder to solo in HoT than PoF.

@"CrazyMinxi.6810" said:What do you guys think and do you think that this can be fixed much like the underwater combat was fixed?You're assuming it's broken when it's fairly balanced. This topic has come up multiple times, please note that it wouldn't hurt you to use the "search" function on forums and contribute to one of the other threads regarding this.

@"Laila Lightness.8742" said:Hot needs to be nerfed overall its to hard for bormal players core difficulty in open world was best(before breakbars came)

Here's the issue with this discussion. Newer players tend to think that HoT should be a continuation of Core Tyria and since we have level80 maps in Core, HoT maps should be the same. This is incorrect and here's why:HoT was an expansion released in October 2015, approximately 3 years after the launch of GW2. By this point many players were getting to a stage where they wanted more challenging content and that was the intention of the HoT expac. Core lvl80 maps were simply outdated for players who had run through them multiple times and maxed out gear.

HoT provided a fresh new challenge. Mobs had increased agro radius (I believe), they had different mechanics and required a more intuitive approach. For many players who had got bored of steamrolling through mobs, this was a breath of fresh air, giving them a sense of danger and risk, forcing them to be more aware of surroundings. In short it was a step-up which was highly anticipated and much needed. Many aspects required more teamwork and the map-wide metas were introduced to engage people in mass co-operative play.IMO the VB Night Meta is a better design than PoF Great Hall or Palawadan because it's not all about zerging but I guess they can't be compared directly.

HoT maps were deigned to be more complicated - TD being the most notorious. This gave us players a really great sense that we were exploring a genuinely dangerous jungle where one wrong turn may result in a fight for survival. The experience of being lost and not immediately knowing what to do for many players was something which made the game feel more "realistic".

Central Tyria trains players poorly.HoT requires a semblance of attention, which I very much prefer.

And yes, I died to those snipers, pocket raptors, mushroom sons of.., froggy ninjas, big-ass dino whatevers until I realised the game wasn't going to get any easier until I learnt how to play the game. Which was a refreshing realization, when sited within the context of modern gaming, where things tend to be dumbed down to the lowest level rather than designed to encourage us to step up and improve to meet a challenge.

@"CrazyMinxi.6810" said:but the big issue that most base attacks hit you for 2-6k

I'll leave you with the fundamental lesson they teach you (or should, anyway) in any real-world martial arts club with even a nod to self-defence.

Don't Get Hit.

If they don't hit you, you don't take any damage. That, ultimately, is the lesson that HoT drives home. The GW2 combat system is based around "active defence", getting out of the way of incoming damage in whatever way you can. As you play better, you learn which is the best "Don't Stand In Stupid"(1) method to apply to which enemy, but in general dodge-rolls are the way to go. (Example: Jungle Tendril poison-goop landing circles can be trivially evaded by just running because the goop takes so long to reach you.)

(1) The war cry of healers in trinity-based MMORPGs (WoW, SWTOR, RoM, Allods, etc.) everywhere. In GW2, you have to say it to yourself.

tl;dr at the end.

Edit: I do wish I was able to put this much work into my actual.. work. Not some ranty post on a video game forum xD

The moment more people realize that the amount of BS in PoF is far higher than in HoT would be glorious. I will leave Champions out of this equation because they aren't really something that should be considered in strictly solo play for the most players.

HoT has:Beetles that have a hitbox thrice as wide as they are (now this one is super annoying)Vines that will never hit you once you realize that all you have to do is dodge their large AoE around them with one single roll every 10 secondsMordrem enemies that charge their pbAoE attack for 5 seconds that you deserve to die from if it ever hits youSnipers that fire projectiles that have a travel time that you can just side step as he fires it, not even a dodge requiredThose things that root themselves in place that attack you with vines that keep spawning at your feet. I will give anybody this one, it IS rather easy to die to these and not realize that one dodge roll basically stops that attack.Teragriff, who will devastate you if the charge ever hits youPocketraptors (It takes like 3 seconds for them to react, so you better AoE burst them down, easy esp now with mounts)Frogs High burst, evasive enemies with pretty big HP bars. They make that one Waypoint on Verdant Brink hell, luckily don't really appear anywhere else.MushroomsChak

Okay, the last two ARE somewhat crazy. The charging mushrooms can almost stunlock you if you're not careful and deal a lot of damage, the sporeling throwing ones deal a ton of damage if one of them hits you. They are the enemified (that's a word now) glass cannons however and are only in very few areas (where you can just easily avoid them)Chak have some other mechanics tied to them. Without the mastery to remove the goop they can be even more dangerous. The ones that fire lasers at you hit like a truck while being difficult to avoid, so I can see them causing a lot of trouble to people without rounded out builds that can stun and burst them quickly.

Most of these enemies and most of their attacks have one thing in common though: They are telegraphed and easily avoidable, but will take at least 60% of your HP if they do connect.

Let's get to PoF and show you why I'm writing this in the first place.

PoF has:Djinn: The HoT beetle charge attack but on steroids. Charging around many times, throwing a ton of very annoying attacks at you that you will have to dodge roll half the time. Not easily stunned and burst down, you need to catch their breakbar.Forged:-Hookhead Get hit by the literal hook, which is a tiny projectile, and get pulled half the map away. Get hit by their characteristic chain line attack in front of them and get killed almost instantly. No real tells, no real way to react unless you're at full HP.-The ones with that double spinning projectile attack that they fire in front of them: The attack can knock you down, deal a ton of damage, open you up for the rest of their combo (like a charge attack that will stunlock you even further), no tell on the attack.Branded: Most of them followed the more glass cannon-y approach of highly explosive attacks that could decimate you within a second. (These aren't so bad but worth the mention)The Awakened that drain you, which can be hard to avoid unless you CC them down as fast as possible.Awakened Canids* These made me scream maaany times. They chase you over half the map, they essentially shadowstep to you and they deal around 10 to 16k damage just with that. They are extremely annoying to fight and you are better off hoping they target somebody else so you can quickly burst them than take them on your own. The fact they mostly stand around with half a dozen other dangerous Awakened doesn't really help it.Awakened Abominations: Tanky, high damage. Their main "auto attack" is pretty dangerous already, their bigger AoE attacks have a tell and can be avoided, though the fact it consists of many smaller AoEs makes this slightly more difficult to dodge than the usual enemy. Punishes players who try to stay in range by teleporting them in if they are hit during a special animation. (which IS rather obvious once you realize it)Harpies: Take the strongest Mordrem, remove their obvious tells and put them on steroids. That's any type of harpy you will see in PoF. Luckily the stun and burst them approach works wonders and their spellbreaker bubble that will rip you to shreds is easy to avoid once you notice the red bubble.

No mention of super annoying Bounty mechanics since those are unique to PoF and I didn't list any specific champions for HoT either, but the comparison I made here follows one large principle:

HoT was very focused on heavy hitting, telegraphed attacks that could be learned and dodged appropriately. Stun into burst is a very good way to deal with them. Many attacks could be walked away from, not forcing you to use a dodge roll. Most enemies are split into groups of 3 to 5, avoiding multiples usually. They can be dealt with one after the other, going for the priority targets first because at least 2 or 3 of them will be locked in their lengthy attack animations. This also makes fighting crazy amounts of Mordrem managable usually (Think soloing a rally camp in Verdant Brink)

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PoF has a ton of enemies that require you to dodge roll to avoid their attacks. Many of them are extremely hard to tell and have only subtle animations of the enemies themselves. Playing melee feels very punishing half the time, with many enemies having attacks that become absolutely impossible to avoid in that range. - many of those being the charges or the aforementioned Hookhead line attack. Near unavoidable, CC lock and tied to very high damage.Not noticing or simply being unable to see the specific enemy's animations during messy situations punishes you very hard. Enemy groups are larger and patrol more, making it trickier to avoid the different enemy groups sometimes because of how close they cna get to each other. They usually have multiple high priority targets in their smaller enemy groups and unlike HoT, none of them will hesitate to wreck you.

Honorable mentions:Hydras. Now I am not sure if at any point their meteor strike ability got slightly nerfed or not, but it certainly feels that way. I think it used to track you more aggressively and attack 3 instead of 2 times, but I could be wrong. It definitely forced you to use both your dodge rolls if you couldn't quickly move otherwise or were able to facetank it They seem much less annoying to deal with now either way.Hylek: I am pretty sure that almost all of the Hylek enemies were intended to be taken down in groups. They are optional, though while exploring Tangled Depths you may find your face bashed in faster than you expect. Mounts made these a non-issue though unless the damage dismounts you they are avoidable entirely and only limited to very few areas.

I went togreat lengths here and I most likely missed many more enemies with really stupid attacks.

tl;dr: HoT has hard hitting, telegraphed attacks that will destroy you. PoF has a dozen enemies with hard to tell, extremely hard hitting attacks that may or may not also be tied to a CC that will make you scream BS at your screen many times.