Condition dealers in spvp

Before I start, the point I'm outlining applies to wvw as well, since it's about conditions in general, but I used spvp since game play and counter game play there should matter more than in wvw zerg pirate ships, and spvp forces you to fight on node anyway.

Anyway, I've noticed that there is a huuuuge difference between light armor condition classes compared to heavy/medium, namely mirage and and scourge.

Classes like burn warrior or guardian are just that... their primary source of conditions is limited to burn with maybe some bleeding.

But... mirage and scourge.... they are on a different level. When you fight one, your bar suddenly has 14 stacks of every condition in 1 second. You look down and your d*ck has aids, maleria, cancer, hepatitis and the black plague all after a quicky with scourge/mesmer.

Maybe if those two classes get dialed back a little, might serve to balance them? Even a 15% condi damage debuff in spvp/wvw? The problem is these two classed don't allow for condition cleanse to be effective. There are 1) too many conditions applied too fast, and 2) they are really applied to fast with 0 effort.

This is why "condi cleanse" has stopped being a thing in builds and meta shifted to resistance; it's the only answer.

I think condi builds should have only around 2 sources of damage, not 300 sources of condi.

Thoughts?

@"LaFurion.3167" said:Before I start, the point I'm outlining applies to wvw as well, since it's about conditions in general, but I used spvp since game play and counter game play there should matter more than in wvw zerg pirate ships, and spvp forces you to fight on node anyway.

Anyway, I've noticed that there is a huuuuge difference between light armor condition classes compared to heavy/medium, namely mirage and and scourge.

Classes like burn warrior or guardian are just that... their primary source of conditions is limited to burn with maybe some bleeding.

But... mirage and scourge.... they are on a different level. When you fight one, your bar suddenly has 14 stacks of every condition in 1 second. You look down and your kitten has aids, maleria, cancer, hepatitis and the black plague all after a quicky with scourge/mesmer.

Maybe if those two classes get dialed back a little, might serve to balance them? Even a 15% condi damage debuff in spvp/wvw? The problem is these two classed don't allow for condition cleanse to be effective. There are 1) too many conditions applied too fast, and 2) they are really applied to fast with 0 effort.

This is why "condi cleanse" has stopped being a thing in builds and meta shifted to resistance; it's the only answer.

I think condi builds should have only around 2 sources of damage, not 300 sources of condi.

Thoughts?

I think a class should never be able to stack any given condi beyond 3 in the span of 1-2 seconds.Burst Conditions should never exist. Period. If you are doing 6-7k in a second with conditions then the application(s) of that class should be severely brought back.The original idea of condition damage was (I thought, I heard a Dev talk about this during a stream about the game during pre launch) supposed to be about sustain over time damage and with that vision in mind, Conditions were made to do more damage the longer they stayed on a player. Now, you can load 4-5 different Conditions on a single player and 3 of those are damage conditions in the span of a second and it gets worse, because the frequency is just as fast.No class should be able to do this.Not even burn guard or warrior. If someone is able to stack 4-5 stacks of burning frequently it's essentially like taking a 5 k auto attack every second + while also taking the application damage as well. This is a problem.

Condition application in this game needs to be toned down and condition cleanses for some classes should be reworked before anything else ( minus mirage and scourge, as the application of conditions on those builds need to be scaled back severely ).It would be nice to have a class wide application and cleanse rework.

I think the model they've adapted was doomed from the start. There is so much AOE and AOE cc/control in this game that it makes pvp very hard to balance without making a class obsolete from even the slightest changes to certain skills. It doesn't help that their original plan was to forgo the trinity and allow every class to access almost all the mechanics in the game.

Unique game system overall and had potential, but terrible execution 99% of the time. Just comes across as poor game design every time I look at balance notes and all the threads complaining about balance issues.

The larger issue is how GW2 (Anet) handles conditions. In most other games, a condition is unique to the spell that was cast. In GW2, they are all generic and just stack randomly and get cleansed randomly (I know it's not RANDOM but it doesn't feel super intuitive either).

It makes for very spammy and open-to-exploit possibilities.

It is really easy to solve bring back the balance before hot. There was a lot less cc and ways to apply condi. All the cc and ways that condi apply did get introduc because of HOT AND POF.

It's hard to debate on this to me. Typically, the balance around a team such as 2 mirages 2 scourges is tough because :

• if you're playing 1 thief 1 scourge 2 rangers 1 firebrand, it's probably going to be an easy win ( there are alternative setups )
• if you're playing mirror setup, it's going to be about which team has the best scourges
• if you're playing 2 thieves 1 rev 2 warriors, have toxic players, have matchmaking issues, it's probably going to turn into a blowout

You get an impression of condition too OP because the 3rd situation occurs a lot in solo queue, but most of these matchs, if players were willing to reroll, or to not moan in team chat the whole game, it would probably be a win or eventually a less frustrating lose.I'm not saying condition isn't OP, i still believe it is and scourge/mirage have serious issues, but it could be less annoying if players knew how to handle them a bit better...

@Solori.6025 said:

@"LaFurion.3167" said:Before I start, the point I'm outlining applies to wvw as well, since it's about conditions in general, but I used spvp since game play and counter game play there should matter more than in wvw zerg pirate ships, and spvp forces you to fight on node anyway.

Anyway, I've noticed that there is a huuuuge difference between light armor condition classes compared to heavy/medium, namely mirage and and scourge.

Classes like burn warrior or guardian are just that... their primary source of conditions is limited to burn with maybe some bleeding.

But... mirage and scourge.... they are on a different level. When you fight one, your bar suddenly has 14 stacks of every condition in 1 second. You look down and your kitten has aids, maleria, cancer, hepatitis and the black plague all after a quicky with scourge/mesmer.

Maybe if those two classes get dialed back a little, might serve to balance them? Even a 15% condi damage debuff in spvp/wvw? The problem is these two classed don't allow for condition cleanse to be effective. There are 1) too many conditions applied too fast, and 2) they are really applied to fast with 0 effort.

This is why "condi cleanse" has stopped being a thing in builds and meta shifted to resistance; it's the only answer.

I think condi builds should have only around 2 sources of damage, not 300 sources of condi.

Thoughts?

I feel like that view is far too severe; it would mean around 99% of people play power instead of condi. Condi should be a viable form of damage, and in PvP u need your damage to matter and get things done. I just feel like a) the damage condi's do is farrrr too powerful, and 2) as stated before, application for some classes is way too easy at 0 cost and are capable of stacking 7+ different conditions WITH heavily stacked damaging conditions.

Getting condi bombed by a condi berserker means high stacks of burning and possibly bleeding. U got hit by it, and if you dont have condi cleanse in your build, or if your condi cleanse is on cd, you pay for it (albiet balance is important here; condi application shouldnt mean insta death).

Getting condi bombed by scourge/mirage means 14 stacks of torment, confusion, 4 stacks of poison, cripple, blind, weakness, chill, 11 stacks of bleeding... you get the idea. literally every condi in the game... THAT is a huge problem.

I feel people are traumatised by this so they HATE the idea now that condi's are as strong as they are; I honestly beleive that if condi cleanse became viable again, people would learn to survive condi classes. You can avoid the condis + cleanse them! just not in the curret reality XD not for a very long while anyway.

IMO, a few things need to happen:

• scourge and mesmer condi needs to be toned down. This happened for ALL other classes and all other condi builds in the game back in the great condi nerf patch. Those two weren't hurt enough and it shows.
• condi cleanse needs to be scaled back slightly across all builds. If you want to have condi fulfil its main purpose (damage over time), it needs to actually manage to stick around over time. If it gets cleansed every few seconds, condi builds just need to have even more spam to compensate.

When I'm playing condi engi, I have to get in melee range (on a fairly vulnerable class without the kind of melee defense that Warrior or Guard has), then execute two or three short-range skills that can be interrupted or dodged. Then I have to get out of melee range and wait for those conditions to tick while harassing with cover condi and PRAYING that my opponent's cleanse doesn't hit my main damage.Inevitably, they will have resistance and cleanse and more cleanse. They'll have cleanse every time they use a certain skill type, or dodge. They'll cleanse passively. They'll cleanse without even thinking about it, and just like that, all my damage is gone and I have to get in close and combo them again...And then they'll cleanse it again.. and then I'll have to take the risk to combo them againEventually (maybe. some classes literally have so much cleanse I can NEVER kill them), they'll go down.

When I'm playing power, I just execute two or three short-range skills. Then my opponent is dead.

@LaFurion.3167 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@LaFurion.3167 said:Before I start, the point I'm outlining applies to wvw as well, since it's about conditions in general, but I used spvp since game play and counter game play there should matter more than in wvw zerg pirate ships, and spvp forces you to fight on node anyway.

Anyway, I've noticed that there is a huuuuge difference between light armor condition classes compared to heavy/medium, namely mirage and and scourge.

Classes like burn warrior or guardian are just that... their primary source of conditions is limited to burn with maybe some bleeding.

But... mirage and scourge.... they are on a different level. When you fight one, your bar suddenly has 14 stacks of every condition in 1 second. You look down and your kitten has aids, maleria, cancer, hepatitis and the black plague all after a quicky with scourge/mesmer.

Maybe if those two classes get dialed back a little, might serve to balance them? Even a 15% condi damage debuff in spvp/wvw? The problem is these two classed don't allow for condition cleanse to be effective. There are 1) too many conditions applied too fast, and 2) they are really applied to fast with 0 effort.

This is why "condi cleanse" has stopped being a thing in builds and meta shifted to resistance; it's the only answer.

I think condi builds should have only around 2 sources of damage, not 300 sources of condi.

Thoughts?

.. but it should mean inevitable death, or at least a lot of damage. If you get bombed by a condi berserker, they hit you with multiple skills that have short range and interruptible/dodgeable animations, just like a power berserker. .. Except if you get hit by the power berserker, you're just instantly dead. Why should condi have to land their burst 3.. 4.. 5 times before killing you when power only needs to do it once?

This made sense back when tanky amulets were a thing and you could play condi way tankier than power, but the game doesn't work that way any more. You're just as squishy on condi and there's really no advantage to it on any class that isn't Mirage/Scourge. (and even then, those are strong for other reasons, not because they happen to deal condi damage).

@LaFurion.3167 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@LaFurion.3167 said:Before I start, the point I'm outlining applies to wvw as well, since it's about conditions in general, but I used spvp since game play and counter game play there should matter more than in wvw zerg pirate ships, and spvp forces you to fight on node anyway.

Anyway, I've noticed that there is a huuuuge difference between light armor condition classes compared to heavy/medium, namely mirage and and scourge.

Classes like burn warrior or guardian are just that... their primary source of conditions is limited to burn with maybe some bleeding.

But... mirage and scourge.... they are on a different level. When you fight one, your bar suddenly has 14 stacks of every condition in 1 second. You look down and your kitten has aids, maleria, cancer, hepatitis and the black plague all after a quicky with scourge/mesmer.

Maybe if those two classes get dialed back a little, might serve to balance them? Even a 15% condi damage debuff in spvp/wvw? The problem is these two classed don't allow for condition cleanse to be effective. There are 1) too many conditions applied too fast, and 2) they are really applied to fast with 0 effort.

This is why "condi cleanse" has stopped being a thing in builds and meta shifted to resistance; it's the only answer.

I think condi builds should have only around 2 sources of damage, not 300 sources of condi.

Thoughts?

Maybe, maybe it is too severe, but what we have right now is really, really terrible. I'm all for having builds add some cover conditions, but not when those damaging conditions are stacked 5-10+ at a time.

@Solori.6025 said:

@LaFurion.3167 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@LaFurion.3167 said:Before I start, the point I'm outlining applies to wvw as well, since it's about conditions in general, but I used spvp since game play and counter game play there should matter more than in wvw zerg pirate ships, and spvp forces you to fight on node anyway.

Anyway, I've noticed that there is a huuuuge difference between light armor condition classes compared to heavy/medium, namely mirage and and scourge.

Classes like burn warrior or guardian are just that... their primary source of conditions is limited to burn with maybe some bleeding.

But... mirage and scourge.... they are on a different level. When you fight one, your bar suddenly has 14 stacks of every condition in 1 second. You look down and your kitten has aids, maleria, cancer, hepatitis and the black plague all after a quicky with scourge/mesmer.

Maybe if those two classes get dialed back a little, might serve to balance them? Even a 15% condi damage debuff in spvp/wvw? The problem is these two classed don't allow for condition cleanse to be effective. There are 1) too many conditions applied too fast, and 2) they are really applied to fast with 0 effort.

This is why "condi cleanse" has stopped being a thing in builds and meta shifted to resistance; it's the only answer.

I think condi builds should have only around 2 sources of damage, not 300 sources of condi.

Thoughts?

But they HAVE to be! It's an arms race. Builds have so much cleanse that in order for those damaging condi skills to actually deal damage, there has to be a boat-load of cover to compensate.

Unpopular opinion: if you got hit with a condi skill (and it was a fair skill that you could have blocked or dodged), then you should take the damage. That's how power works. That's how condi should work, and the amount of damage should be roughly equal, with condi having a slightly more due to how long it takes to tick.

I feel that no class should be able to put more then 2 damaging condis on a user....wars n gaurds would be burn specialist like they are already, mes are confusion specialist obviously, necro/scourge poison and bleed specialist, thf moving imparing specialist n bleed, druids movement and bleed specialist...Something along these lines so that if u get into a fight with 2 or more condi users you can actually win with skill instead of just getting fruatrated at the fact u got every condi in the game all from 1-2 toons and they tick u for 15k in less then 2.5 seconds all the while rocking 13k hp cuz ele base hp is 11.9k and u dont even have enough hp to survive a single condi burst cuz damage over time is irrelevant.

@coro.3176 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@LaFurion.3167 said:

@Solori.6025 said:

@LaFurion.3167 said:Before I start, the point I'm outlining applies to wvw as well, since it's about conditions in general, but I used spvp since game play and counter game play there should matter more than in wvw zerg pirate ships, and spvp forces you to fight on node anyway.

Anyway, I've noticed that there is a huuuuge difference between light armor condition classes compared to heavy/medium, namely mirage and and scourge.

Classes like burn warrior or guardian are just that... their primary source of conditions is limited to burn with maybe some bleeding.

But... mirage and scourge.... they are on a different level. When you fight one, your bar suddenly has 14 stacks of every condition in 1 second. You look down and your kitten has aids, maleria, cancer, hepatitis and the black plague all after a quicky with scourge/mesmer.

Maybe if those two classes get dialed back a little, might serve to balance them? Even a 15% condi damage debuff in spvp/wvw? The problem is these two classed don't allow for condition cleanse to be effective. There are 1) too many conditions applied too fast, and 2) they are really applied to fast with 0 effort.

This is why "condi cleanse" has stopped being a thing in builds and meta shifted to resistance; it's the only answer.

I think condi builds should have only around 2 sources of damage, not 300 sources of condi.

Thoughts?

Yes, that should be how it works, unfortunately, we have builds that are able to Condi bomb repeatedly. You have two dodges( unless you are DrD) unlike power, you are able, with auto attacks no less, continue to stack conditions that will still lead to the scenerio I mentioned above, taking 3k a second from stacked conditions from auto attacks is absurd, how do you counter play that? Also condition bombs for some classes happen in a span of 8-20s. Not every class has a response up that quickly.

Edit: While I don't want condition builds to go back to the state they were in on release. I also do not like how they are implemented in this current meta.