Jump to content
  • Sign Up

*Spoilers* how sylvari enter the place in "The Departing"?


alex.7950

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 53
  • Created
  • Last Reply

It was clearly stated that only souls that died in a tragic way, show up in that realm. But it has to be a death that has such a strong impact, that the soul forgets who it was during life. As we know, Grenth has the monopoly for such souls, but he was off anyway, so that gave us a chance to return to life. But all in all, if this was really intended, then it is confirmed that Sylvari do have souls, and their consciousness is not made out of dream dust or whatever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Rodzynald.5897 said:It was clearly stated that only souls that died in a tragic way, show up in that realm. But it has to be a death that has such a strong impact, that the soul forgets who it was during life. As we know, Grenth has the monopoly for such souls, but he was off anyway, so that gave us a chance to return to life. But all in all, if this was really intended, then it is confirmed that Sylvari do have souls, and their consciousness is not made out of dream dust or whatever.

Or that traumatic death alters their souls, at least long enough to be pulled into the domain of the lost

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the realm in question is not true 'death' but unacceptence thereof. As a result, your soul doesn't return (or go to) the native realm of the dead. Every soul thats lost ends up here, regardless of race, and only if they can come to terms with themselves, realize who they are, and accept they are dead, they can leave this realm and go on their own race's afterlife. As for why Grenth has such a long arm to this realm, I don't know. but similarly, Asura, Charr, and even Norn end up there, while normally Norn spirits are guided by the wild spirits after death

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The place is pretty clearly ruled over directly by Grenth. His agent, the Judge, determines the fate of the souls there. They don't get to just go off to their afterlives when they remember who they are; they have to present themselves to the Judge, who determines where they go and sends them there (you can see that happen with your spirit guide, if you choose to follow her back at the end). The charr spirit you encounter refers to the place as a human prison, and the scenery and inhabitants (including aatxe and black widows) make it clear that it's part of the Underworld, fulfilling a similar purpose as the Forgotten Vale.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Rognik.2579 said:I guess they do have souls after all. Burn me.

My reaction.

This is simply the first time we see sylvari confirmed to have souls. What's a curious question is how many sylvari, if not all, and how many other dragon minions also have their own souls? Further, if only sylvari have souls among dragon minions (as heavily implied by the risen, branded, and other cases), then why them?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Rognik.2579 said:I guess they do have souls after all. Burn me.

My reaction.

This is simply the first time we see sylvari confirmed to have souls. What's a curious question is how many sylvari, if not all, and how many other dragon minions also have their own souls? Further, if only sylvari have souls among dragon minions (as heavily implied by the risen, branded, and other cases), then why them?

I guess the same way that Dragon Champions like Glint have a soul once cleansed, since I'd imagine that Rytlock wouldn't have been able to commune with her spirit in the Mists without one. This might suggest that the method the Forgotten used to "cleanse" Glint somehow transforms them during the process. It'd be interesting to see if the Forgotten had anything to do with the seed pod that the Pale Tree sprouted from, and why it's different from Malyck's tree. We've also seen how Balthazar and Joko went to the 'Domain of the Lost' to get souls for their respective armies, and with how the Forgotten created the Exhalted, what if they made the Pale Tree as some kind of soul recycler, with each new sylvari being imbued with a soul, or at least the energy of it, from a former Tyrian resident.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@PopeUrban.2578 said:All religions are a lie except the current one necessary for plot development. Today, Human religion is fact. Next time we need another Asuran magitech machine to move the plot forward, it'll be the eternal alchemy again. Next time we need a character to permanently die again, it'll be Charr atheism.

Username checks out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I think the realm in question is not true 'death' but unacceptence thereof. As a result, your soul doesn't return (or go to) the native realm of the dead. Every soul thats lost ends up here, regardless of race, and only if they can come to terms with themselves, realize who they are, and accept they are dead, they can leave this realm and go on their own race's afterlife. As for why Grenth has such a long arm to this realm, I don't know. but similarly, Asura, Charr, and even Norn end up there, while normally Norn spirits are guided by the wild spirits after death

Now that you mention it... I should try to have a close look at the memory bird next time I play through that instance. Raven was supposed to be the shepherd of the dead for norn, so it would be a nice touch if the memory spirit was a raven.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I think the realm in question is not true 'death' but unacceptence thereof. As a result, your soul doesn't return (or go to) the native realm of the dead. Every soul thats lost ends up here, regardless of race, and only if they can come to terms with themselves, realize who they are, and accept they are dead, they can leave this realm and go on their own race's afterlife. As for why Grenth has such a long arm to this realm, I don't know. but similarly, Asura, Charr, and even Norn end up there, while normally Norn spirits are guided by the wild spirits after death

Now that you mention it... I should try to have a close look at the memory bird next time I play through that instance. Raven was supposed to be the shepherd of the dead for norn, so it would be a nice touch if the memory spirit was a raven.

As it happens, it is. First use of the white raven model outside of the pet, afaik.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@Ayakaru.6583 said:I think the realm in question is not true 'death' but unacceptence thereof. As a result, your soul doesn't return (or go to) the native realm of the dead. Every soul thats lost ends up here, regardless of race, and only if they can come to terms with themselves, realize who they are, and accept they are dead, they can leave this realm and go on their own race's afterlife. As for why Grenth has such a long arm to this realm, I don't know. but similarly, Asura, Charr, and even Norn end up there, while normally Norn spirits are guided by the wild spirits after death

Now that you mention it... I should try to have a close look at the memory bird next time I play through that instance. Raven was supposed to be the shepherd of the dead for norn, so it would be a nice touch if the memory spirit was a raven.

As it happens, it is. First use of the white raven model outside of the pet, afaik.

Ah, there it is. Nice touch for people who've paid attention to the norn lore, then.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

@deatine.2498 said:Why would Sylvari and Modrem not have souls? Has it been mentioned somewhere? They are living, intelligent creatures, not undead bodies like Risen or crystalline structures like Branded.

They are, but conversely, they're also manufactured on-demand by Mordremoth. For them to have souls either means that Mordremoth/the Pale Tree can make souls or that souls are automatically generated to fill suitable empty vessels, however those vessels are created. Either has major implications for what a soul actually is in Guild Wars.

That, combined with the fact that sylvari biology requires magic to function, left the general suspicion before PoF that sylvari/mordrem were more of plant elementals than truly living things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Souls can exist in every living entity including Elementals and Dragon Minions. Sentient Machines relying on sheer tech have no Souls while Sentient Machines relying on Magic do.

The Branded, Risen, Frostbrood, Mordrem and Destroyers almost certainly all have Souls which go to the Mists. In the case of Dragon Minions created from living entities the Souls are replaced with new ones(they clearly don't have the same mind as the body's original Soul). It must have been horrifying for King Reza to share a body with then Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan and have to watch as the stronger soul forces the body to do terrible things against Reza's will.

With the knowledge that Dragon Minions have Souls it becomes more obvious why Mordremoth has to brainwash his Sylvari Mordrem into becoming Mordrem Guard rather than recorrupt them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:Souls can exist in every living entity including Elementals and Dragon Minions. Sentient Machines relying on sheer tech have no Souls while Sentient Machines relying on Magic do.

So far, there's no evidence for that. We've seen evidence of souls for natural sapient races, and possible* evidence for souls of certain animals, but aside from that the only indication that other kinds of mobs have souls is that certain necromancer skills themed after attacking the soul work on them. Given that this is also a game where I can bleed earth elementals to death and confuse certain doors, I'm reluctant to take that as proof of any lore.

*All of these animal ghosts are either in the area of the Foefire, which is enough of an outlier to invite suspicion, or attached to sapient ghosts. Given that such ghosts can be found with ghostly equipment, even up to barrels and cannons, it's hard to say whether that means their pet hawk actually had a soul, or if they're generating a spectral copy of it the same way they're making a copy of their clothes.

Or maybe underwear has a soul too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here's my thoughts on the matter: free will indicates a soul.

Sylvari definitely have free will. The Nightmare Court and the Soundless are indicative of that--they're not mindlessly following the Pale Tree. And even when half of them go nuts when Mordremoth awakens, a lot of them still remain Sylvari, since you have to root out crazed Sylvari in a few events. If they become Mordrem, then their soul is gone, and born Mordrem never had a soul, being extensions of Mordremoth's will.

Admittedly, this is mostly conjecture and headcanon to make an intertwining personal story work, but it makes sense, I think. Sylvari might be special in that they can only become one Elder Dragon's minions, but that doesn't preclude a soul.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@deatine.2498 said:Why would Sylvari and Modrem not have souls? Has it been mentioned somewhere? They are living, intelligent creatures, not undead bodies like Risen or crystalline structures like Branded.

Because prior to this point, there was never any form of indication that sylvari had souls. It's even a lore state that sylvari don't know what happens to them when they die - some believe they return to the Dream, others believe they go to the Mists, and many are simply unsure because there was never proof that there was an afterlife for sylvari. They merely believed there was because there were for other races.

For reasons that @Aaron Ansari.1604 points out, this is rather critical lore as it heavily implies the nature of souls. And we cannot even proclaim the sylvari PC is a special case, because we see a sylvari NPC in the Domain of the Lost (at least one, possibly more?).

Furthermore, most dragon minions are repeatedly called soulless. And in a world where we have active communications with both ghosts haunting the world and souls that have moved on to the Mists, that's not always metaphorical.

We even see cases where dragon minions are shambling husks of beings where the soul of said being is elsewhere.

@Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:Souls can exist in every living entity including Elementals and Dragon Minions. Sentient Machines relying on sheer tech have no Souls while Sentient Machines relying on Magic do.

The Branded, Risen, Frostbrood, Mordrem and Destroyers almost certainly all have Souls which go to the Mists. In the case of Dragon Minions created from living entities the Souls are replaced with new ones(they clearly don't have the same mind as the body's original Soul). It must have been horrifying for King Reza to share a body with then Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan and have to watch as the stronger soul forces the body to do terrible things against Reza's will.

Not only does this claim have no obvious support, elementals and dragon minions are explicitly stated to be soulless in many cases. Risen are perhaps the most notable, given Romke and his crew as well as Crusader Aliyana - all of whom are now ghosts, but with their bodies up and shambling about as mindless risen.

There are risen who have souls, but these souls are trapped within the body and not created by the Elder Dragon - they're the original body's soul, forced back into the body like your typical sapient undead.

There is also not a single machine anywhere that has ever shown to have a soul, except those which are using a trapped soul as a power source.

@Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:With the knowledge that Dragon Minions have Souls it becomes more obvious why Mordremoth has to brainwash his Sylvari Mordrem into becoming Mordrem Guard rather than recorrupt them.

This also makes no sense of a claim. All Elder Dragons are capable of corrupting beings with souls. Why would sylvari be any different simply because they have a soul?

No, the Dream protecting them from being corruption - which is all but explicitly stated in Season 2 and Heart of Thorns promotions - is a far more simply explained case.

@"SilentSnowdrop.1368" said:Here's my thoughts on the matter: free will indicates a soul.

Sylvari definitely have free will. The Nightmare Court and the Soundless are indicative of that--they're not mindlessly following the Pale Tree. And even when half of them go nuts when Mordremoth awakens, a lot of them still remain Sylvari, since you have to root out crazed Sylvari in a few events. If they become Mordrem, then their soul is gone, and born Mordrem never had a soul, being extensions of Mordremoth's will.

Admittedly, this is mostly conjecture and headcanon to make an intertwining personal story work, but it makes sense, I think. Sylvari might be special in that they can only become one Elder Dragon's minions, but that doesn't preclude a soul.

This is probably closest to the situation, excluding the case of "trapped souls".

It's likely that ArenaNet never considered whether or not dragon minions have souls, and merely wrote what they felt fit the story best without care of the situation, but the argument of "free will = soul" is probably strongest.

Would have been cool if sylvari PCs got a completely different version of The Departure - perhaps one sending them to the Dream of Dreams instead of the Underworld.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

This is probably closest to the situation, excluding the case of "trapped souls".

It's likely that ArenaNet never considered whether or not dragon minions have souls, and merely wrote what they felt fit the story best without care of the situation, but the argument of "free will = soul" is probably strongest.

Would have been cool if sylvari PCs got a completely different version of The Departure - perhaps one sending them to the Dream of Dreams instead of the Underworld.

I think that would have been very cool, especially because we don't have proper closure on the Pale Tree yet, IMO. We don't know how she's doing, and if she's going to be fine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Would have been cool if sylvari PCs got a completely different version of The Departure - perhaps one sending them to the Dream of Dreams instead of the Underworld.Except another part of the Departure is talking to the entrapped Joko, which is absolutely necessary in order for the player to make sense of the subsequent story events. And putting Joko in the Dream of Dreams would make very little sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...