The Great Staff Rework Project

Chairmen of the (Key)Board, let us come together to propose how to fix the hot mess that is the Necro Staff. (Aka absolute madman suggesting changes to a weapon after how many years?!)

Skip to the SKILLS Section to cut the chase and get strait to the crap

Why Change Staff?

As it stands, Staff is just AoE spam and a weak ranged poke, with skills divided between Condi and Power. As it stands currently, if you want AoE condi spam, you go Scourge with Scepter, because the marks are weaksauce and suffer from downright atrocious cooldowns. As for anyone playing Power (all 6 of us) - the auto just doesn't have the Oomf to justify taking it and having to sacrifice the Axe/x damage or Greatsword utility. Sure, it's decent for bag-tags, but that's ALL its going to do. Tag enemies for ~1k damage while everyone else is downing people. It's basically a "I wanna leech off this zerg". Not to mention, the animation for attacks and general gameplay of the Staff is not up to par with A-Net's A-game.

ThematicsFirst of all, let's talk about the one thing that the Staff gets right - The Scythe Blade. That shadow scythe blade appearing on the staff is xX_Darkshadowbloodhuntercoma_X /10 edgy and I love it. This right here is the basis for the skill changes below. Now before you stop reading and say "oh another 'make staff melee' post" that's not the intent at all. In fact, I WANT staff to be ranged. POWER (Oldspice.mp4) ranged. Like "Oh Shit thats a Necro with a Staff" instead of "Oh Shit that's a free bag with a limp stick". We already have a "Scythe Projectile" asset from "Reaper's Touch", so making it into a projectile with a suitable "swing/reaping" animation would be doable. Now, the other part of the thematics to the staff is minions. Yes, minions. No not those yellow things the ones NECROMANCERS should have. Staff was originally intended to be the minionmancer weapon, given that it's traits were in the Death Magic line. (Which is a whole other hot mess, but hopefully fixing the weapon will build a foundation for fixing that train-wreck). Well now, what do scythes and minions have in common? Reaping souls? Making ghosts? Exploding ghosts? Lets go with exploding wisps (adorable little shadowfiends!) And maybe for the more... macabre in mind... adorable little jagged horrors a la "Rise!" style, however I'm thinking a more "Harvester of Sorrow" theme. At this point I'm just snowballing ideas for the section below. Feel free to comment your own.

Skills

1. The Auto-attack chain. Naturally, keep the same range of 1200 to give Power Reaper some counter-kiting and ranged damage instead of relying on flashing shroud+GS5 and hoping the grab lands, and doing very little in WvW zergs. Now the attack itself should make use of that sweet shadow scythe on the blade, launching it as a projectile (reuse Reaper's Touch asset if needed tbh). The projectile travels to the target (dealing damage to anything in it's path) and "Impales itself" on impact (just a cool particle effect or something). Have the projectile spin on a more diagonal axis (the swing of the staff should be from High left (overhead and maybe slightly behind shoulder) to low right (nearly touching the ground), and the projectile should spin on an axis perpendicular to the angle of the swing. First attack in the chain [sow Despair] can stack vuln if dps is an issue (Or summon a wisp - see below). The second attack in the chain [Kneel] flings another scythe projectile causing similar damage and applies cripple. (The swing animation should follow-up by starting back bottom-right, nearly sliding along the ground to Front high left/center. The projectile will be similar to the first. The goal of this is to simulate scything them at the knees, hence the name [Kneel]). The last attack in the chain is where we get to some even sexier thematics. [Harvest] is what will be the main attack used in interacting with the other weapon skills below. Unlike the other two in the chain, [Harvest] causes the two prior scythes to erupt from the target, circle them for a small AoE (Used for comboing the skills below!) and return to the Reaper (You can use the original staff auto animation to make it look like the player is reaching out to draw in the scythes). This skill should have life-force generation and apply chill, because thematically you're harvesting their Soul. The attack speed needs to be high enough that it can effectively make use of sigils such as fire/air, and that it cant be dodged for days or nullified by the agis/reflect spam meta - thus damage should be comparable to other classes for that level of attack speed. Plus, it's gotta be decent in PvE (raids/T4) so us power reapers can actually play those modes.(/s but kinda not)

Now that we have our auto-attack setup as a solid foundation for c-c-combos, lets get into skills with some CDs. Pls note that these aren't in any particular order, just 4 other weapon skills to flesh the staff out a little.

2. [Condemned Souls] This is one I'm particularly stoked on, and it can be spun a few different ways. What I'm thinking is a mark that when triggered does damage and summons wisps (mini shadowfiends). Minimum 3, +1 per target hit. (max 5, cannot have more than 5. New summons replace old summons) They count as minions for all related perks. The wisps will move at base player speed+26% to the closest target, and do very light damage +20% chance to chill(+boon strip?) on hit with a slow attack speed. Wisps detonate for AoE damage+vuln if hit by a scythe from [Harvest], or after X time. Detonation should be unblockable - maybe make that a death magic trait? Wisps are immune to damage. Wisp death gives out standard critter life-force (may need tuning). This provides a good trade off between being able to AoE chill and stack minion buffs from Death Magic, or exploding them for damage. (For the animation maybe raise both hands into a Y?) Basically being swarmed by wisps should be downright terrifying. Thematically, they're the souls of those you killed, you monster!)

3. [bountiful Reaping] Alright, I'm gonna go ahead and rip off [unholy Feat] here but I love the concept of that skill. This may have to be one of the longer CDs, but essentially the concept is to fling a scythe to an area or have it drop from the sky (targeted AoE). 5 targets in the radius when the scythe lands are swiped by a ghostly scythe, and have boons (3) corrupted. For each target hit, you and nearby allies gain boons. Bonus LF gen/damage on low-HP targets. Left the boons received open-ended for balance reasons. This may be a bit OP but as long as it's around the damage of [unholy feast] it should be fine. You can also give it a "Skillcap" or w/e the kids these days call it by making it so that if you hit 0 targets, you apply weakness and vuln to yourself because you harvested nothing and you get anorexic famine. Git Gud intensifies. This should also detonate wisps. (that way you can detonate wisps in a bit bigger area if they get spread out, ).

4. [scythe's Edge? or maybe Impending Demise] / [Demise] You know that spoopy reaper shadow that appears when a necro uses a fear skill (Shroud 3)? Place that sucker over someone's head to let them know they're doomed. Basically, you mark a target with this skill, instant cast You can detonate the mark at any time using [Demise], or it will automatically trigger after 5 sec. While marked, the target cannot block any attack made by the necro. (can still dodge etc) Detonating this skill prematurely/via timeout does much less damage than the alternative - detonation via [Harvest] - the auto-attack finisher - which changes the animation of [Demise] and makes it hit 3-5 targets in an aoe). Essentially, for single-target you'd want to tag them with [Condemned Souls] to get wisps on them, pop [shadow of death] and then detonate it with the aa chain. Naturally the CD of this skill in particular will need to be balanced to be fairly long, as its more of a spike and would probably be OP if used more than once in a duel. However, for PvE, the timing should be in line with every other/couple [Condemned Souls]. (When it is detonated prematurely, have the Axe1/2 spectral swipe animation. When detonated by [Harvest] make it have a scythe slice the scruff of their neck.)

5. [Wake/Path of the Harvest] Moisten your seatbelts, I wanna propose something fun, hilarious, and probably broken as all hell. Basically Thief SB 5, [infiltrator's arrow] However. HOWEVER. Instead of being a complete rip of that skill, here's what we do: Targeted "leap". Leap animation has the reaper BURST INTO WISPS (or just the old plague-form effect) and quickly dash to target location. But it don't stop there! Targets hit by the dash are knocked back (The big knockback that you get from being smashed by a big mordrem taragriff) and you gain life force for each target hit. I wanna see environment kills, people! Knock players off ledges! Whats that? The enemy zerg is running across the ramparts towards your tower's lord and you're the last one left? Send them careening to the courtyard below! Whats this? Your zerg is running up the ramparts to the tower lord and another zerg is in your way? DASH DASH DASH gonna step on the DASH toniiiight and feel the poweeeer. (maybe limit it to max 3 ppl knocked back), and this is to give Staff necro some breakbar help outside chill.

Well, I hope you enjoyed this wild ride of madness. Feel free to make suggestions/comments/criticisms/tell me to re-roll healing-power toughness daggermancer with only Death magic and bone horrors and get 30 this PvP Season.

Anet please Make Staff Great AgainGet the Anet Staff to fix the Necro Staff.

Am I the only one who likes Necro staff as it is? I use it in one of my slots and either s/d or s/t in the other one. Is it meta? Don't know, don't care. I don't like the meta. Does it suit my needs? Yes it does. If there was one thing that I would change, it's the auto-attack. Add a condi to it and I'll be happy. Maybe bleeding? Other than that, don't change a damm thing.

@"Uden Reavstone.3426" said:Am I the only one who likes Necro staff as it is? I use it in one of my slots and either s/d or s/t in the other one. Is it meta? Don't know, don't care. I don't like the meta. Does it suit my needs? Yes it does. If there was one thing that I would change, it's the auto-attack. Add a condi to it and I'll be happy. Maybe bleeding? Other than that, don't change a kitten thing.

Hey man. Not trying to be rude but like.... did you read the post at all? like for starters I play power-reaper, so that basically sums up my thoughts on the meta. Otherwise the whole point of my post was to focus the staff from being scourges "red circle of death dad" to a more theme-appropriate weapon, with a focus on power damage and skills to make it work with and pave the way for a Death Magic trait rework. Because right now it's just stroke the 1-5 keys every few seconds and hope people stood in the AoEs. Its not really a condition weapon or a power weapon right now. The auto is power but hits like wet noodle. The marks are "kinda" condi but again are just for more AoE spam in case scourge doesn't give you enough. Plus all the animations are terrible. Inb4 you're actually a ranger/dadeye main who doesn't want competition from ranged power reapers ;)

Plus they could make staff condi with my rework by making it traitable in death magic. Have wisps explode with fire damage or something.

Not trying to be rude, but I hope I'm allowed to state my opinion.

I hear what you say.

I say I kind of like staff as a hybrid utility. Sure.. it's a bit dusty, but I'm happy with the niche per se.

Besides.. necro:s is lacking in long range. Buffing it too much can get cascading effects.

To my understanding the original trait lines was created to impose compromises. Personally I still like that idea.

Cheers

Staff have had it's lovers and it's haters since launch already. Which mean that this kind of thread pop up every now and then.

The general consensus is that PvP players usually defend this weapon as a godly weapon, WvW zerg players are very satisfyed with the number of bag it grant them and open PvE players like the lazy income it grant them.

I, personnally, understand the op frustration and I sure dislike the lack of punch of this weapon (which is why I almost never use it). However, despite this, the staff is objectively already very usefull in a lot of area and thus don't need any change.

You don't need to have everything designed specifically for the endgame PvE content.

@Blacklight.6127 said:

@"Uden Reavstone.3426" said:Am I the only one who likes Necro staff as it is? I use it in one of my slots and either s/d or s/t in the other one. Is it meta? Don't know, don't care. I don't like the meta. Does it suit my needs? Yes it does. If there was one thing that I would change, it's the auto-attack. Add a condi to it and I'll be happy. Maybe bleeding? Other than that, don't change a kitten thing.

I did read it. You asked for my opinion, and I gave it to you. Staff is awesome for starting an engagement then switching to s/d or s/t to finish off the kill. I don't really use it for the AoE spam you claim is it primary purpose. The problem that arises is when I have to swap back to staff in the middle of a fight, such as in pvp or when fighting a champ, and get stuck for 10 seconds with that lame auto-attack. But just in the use of 4 skills I can stack some bleeds, a fear, a chill, a burn, a poison, a torment, and weakness, and whatever condi's that I manage to transfer over. At least 7 condis. Sounds like a condi weapon to me.

Why would you use Death Magic to make staff a condi weapon? That sounds like a Curses trait to me.

No I am not a "ranger/dadeye main who doesn't want competition from ranged power reapers." First of all, I don't care about how other players play as for the most part it doesn't affect me. Second of all, I can't get into power builds. Third of all, I only have three characters right now and they are a condi necro, a bunker ele, and a bunker guardian.

I would happily like to see Staff changed. Out of all the staff weapons in the game. I find it the most boring weapon to use and the most boring design of a staff. I would love to see a Melee or ranged version that isnt based around the use of Marks.

@"Uden Reavstone.3426" said:Am I the only one who likes Necro staff as it is? I use it in one of my slots and either s/d or s/t in the other one. Is it meta? Don't know, don't care. I don't like the meta. Does it suit my needs? Yes it does. If there was one thing that I would change, it's the auto-attack. Add a condi to it and I'll be happy. Maybe bleeding? Other than that, don't change a kitten thing.

You are not the only one. Staff is a multi-role utility weapon. It may be "weaksauce" but its functions fill in a number of performance gaps in Necromancer. Few would mind if it was buffed to keep up with elite power creep but changing its function makes me uneasy.

Blacklight, your suggestions include a lot of artistic changes I doubt the dev's will want to do for 3 reasons.

1. It is a lot of work to create new animations when Necro staff is already "done-done."
2. Implementing your artistic vision opens them up to copywrite issues.
3. Visual "clutter" is a real hardware performance and human factors concern.

Changing the function of a skill is already a lot of work without adding major cosmetic changes.

I appreciate the work you put into your concept and your ideas sound cool but Arenanet has to do things at their own pace and with their own vision. It is not just because they want to and their tasks and budgets are managed but because they have to.

The only thing i really want for staff is

1. More marks so ammo skills for each of the marks 3 for mark of blood unless it gets a slight buff and 2 for everything else
2. A ranged auto attack chain of some sort. Even a 2 part auto chain would do

But i dont think staff should completely change.Add those to things and im sure i can have more fun with it.

While i like your ideas and your effort you put into it the theme does not feel necroish in my eyes - the thing is necro as a profession already has problems when getting hard focused, no good stab or blocks or invulnerability skills - combining these factors with a ranger weapon concept like you came up with doenst fit.

I also dont think staff needs a full rework. The only thing it really needs is: a new AA - something usefull, that does good and reliable damage -- creating lifeforce should NEVER be the selling point of an AA - as lifeforce should come natural from landing skills. And some skill tweaks - ammo skills like they have been mentioned or turning some skills into persisting AOE effects to put some more power into them - they could even make one skill count as a well for trait purposes. Really, thats all that is needed at this point.

As with these threads ... my standard answers is that what kills staff is the steady (i.e. BORING) approach to playing it. If the AA could be more 'exciting' Staff improvement threads wouldn't exist.

Well since both Reddit and the Forums have a massive chub for the way staff currently is, perhaps if they ever implement the GLORIOUS LAND-SPEAR MASTER RACE they'll use my ideas. If I could edit it I'd Rename this to The Great(est) Staff Rework Land-Spear Project (of all time. mk.III turbo)

@Blacklight.6127 said:Well since both Reddit and the Forums have a massive chub for the way staff currently is, perhaps if they ever implement the GLORIOUS LAND-SPEAR MASTER RACE they'll use my ideas. If I could edit it I'd Rename this to The Great(est) Staff Rework Land-Spear Project (of all time. mk.III turbo)

I am 100% behind land spear, though I would prefer it be a melee power/bleed hybrid for swapping with scepter and maintaining bleed stacks. Thief staff animations can shorten development. Any land spear implementation would have me excited.

Why not do a Land trident for the Necro? We could get some Tentacle shenanigans and be all Davy jones while having your ideas in place, Could make for an interesting concept of us summoning eldritch horrors from the deep to aid us in our battles.

I'm not sure about changing everything about the staff, but it sure could use a look at and an overhaul. It's one of the least changed weapons in the game. I don't think it's seen anything except numbers tweaking and maybe a cooldown change here and there since the game launched.

staff is a utility weapon. does no damage, but when traited grants reliable life force, and it also clears conditions and has unblockable CCit's not great, but shrug

all i think staff needs is a higher coefficient on #2, maybe a longer fear on #5.

Please god removes the marks... I dont think there is a more bland and uninteresting weapon in the game...

Duplicate Fireball from ele staff for the auto attack (exploding projectile instead of a piercing one - also so we can hit 3rd floor cannons in smc). Also increase velocity of projectile.Up the damage on 2 to match auto attack (from 0.33 to 0.666).3 is fine.4 is fine.5 needs either a longer fear.

Overall im fine with the state of staff.The only thing id want is a KITTEN AUTO-ATTACK THAT CAN HIT MOVING TARGETS

I think the staff is the most boring weapon in the game at the moment. And I very welcome a rework. I personally hope the next Elite Spec is a new Minion Master with actual skeleton minions, and a Staff rework. That way, people who like the old staff can keep it, while the new Elite Spec changes it dramatically.

I'd personally would like a strategical long ranged staff though. Something along the lines of placing things like the shade, but your auto attacks and abilities will go out from there. Maybe a giant skeleton hand comes out of the ground while holding magic energy or something. Could be fun in both PVE and PVP.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:all i think staff needs is a higher coefficient on #2, maybe a longer fear on #5.

Staff needs a ground up rework. It doesn't matter what the numbers are staff is badly designed. It crutches terribly on one mechanic (Marks) and is boring and uninteresting to play, no matter what numbers it puts out.

@Xae.7204 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:all i think staff needs is a higher coefficient on #2, maybe a longer fear on #5.

so your argument is cuz boring. how about they fix numbers game wide and then worry about interesting.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Xae.7204 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:all i think staff needs is a higher coefficient on #2, maybe a longer fear on #5.

Because it is incredibly easy to tune numbers but much more difficult to make good/interesting mechanics.

For example Power Reaper PvE dps is stupidly easy to fix. Just add a 1% damage buff to decimate defense per vul stack, it will total to 25% dps buff and bring Reaper to competitive dps level. However this does not fix the fundamental issue which is that the rotation under 50% is just pressing Gravedigger. Unless they fix that first, any buffs to it are more bandages fixes.

Similar to staff here, sure they can just increase the damage/cc duration until is good; but that does not fix the underlaying problem where the staff is fundamentally underwhelming with a conflicting purpose in design. Changing numbers won't fix that just like treating a patient's symptom will not cure the disease.

The marks are half the reason people complain about the condi spam in wvw.I've always said it needs a complete rework imho.