Sinful.2165 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Why anet? Just. Why.Why would you give a loss in a placement match when a player sits in a corner and does absolutely nothing?IMO upgrade your algorithm to give the person throwing the match all 5 losses and let everyone else try again on a more level playing field. frustrated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josif.2015 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 @Sinful.2165 said:Why anet? Just. Why.Why would you give a loss in a placement match when a player sits in a corner and does absolutely nothing?IMO upgrade your algorithm to give the person throwing the match all 5 losses and let everyone else try again on a more level playing field. frustratedYou can always block the player who was throwing on purpose. That way you'll know when they're playing PvP and you can avoid playing with them. People who throw matches suck and blocking them to know when they're online playing PvP is the only way to fix the problem of win traders aside from reporting them for match manipulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoboy.4162 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 Placement matches, as they are currently, are horrible and need to be removed and improved. One person shouldn't be able to sabotage the other four so easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 It sucks, but think of it this way; in the long run this will be less than 2% of your matches if you play the minimum matches required for the season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LazySummer.2568 Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 It probably happens a lot more in placement matches because kids are still wintrading in a dead mode as if their ranking means something, and placement is definitely the easiest time to get your rating very high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abraxxus.8971 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Lost my first 5 placement matches due to dc'ers and afk'ers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandlero.6312 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I was Plat-something (decayed) last season and lost my first 5 played placement matches to what felt like AFK'ers and win-traders. Interestingly, my wife who was Bronze 3 on her main account last season also lost the first 6 placement matches she played. I've asked around in-game and losing all of your placement matches seems to be a phenomena that's cropping up this season with quite a few veteran accounts across the ranking spectrum. Broken MMR? More rampant win-trading? More people purposely losing placements for easy point climb? Something has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lLobo.7960 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I had a guy on one of my matches offering 20 (and then 40) gold to anyone that would log-off of the match.He offered in map chat, then in direct whisper.He then proceeded to run to the mid of the map and not engage in combat or cap any point.I reported him as match manipulation. Wish there was more that could be done to get people like this banned from PvP before they ruin other peoples matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 I always have my tinfoil hat on so bad matches never get me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @"Sinful.2165" said:Why anet? Just. Why.Because you can't use technology to solve "people" problems, like someone being too thick to understand that the MMR system is very, very fast to correct for errors.Why would you give a loss in a placement match when a player sits in a corner and does absolutely nothing?IMO upgrade your algorithm to give the person throwing the match all 5 losses and let everyone else try again on a more level playing field. frustratedEven if all 10 placement matches were thrown like this, play 10 "real" matches and you will have the correct MMR. In fact, the only difference between a placement match and a real match is ... during placement they don't tell you what your MMR is. Everything else is identical. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devilman.1532 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 welcome to ranked pvp in GW2.... :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowzerk.4715 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 i just lost 5 match in a a row, cos we got 1~2 ppl dont know how to play and wanna to get their "dailies" done...... anet need to remove dailies from "ranked" match :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buran.3796 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Still not resign/surrender button? After a couple of minutes waiting to log and another one in countdown usually only takes 2-3 minutes to known which side is going to win, so is easy to understand why some fellows give up for a fast 50-500 instead of the agony of a much longer match strugling which anyway will end in a 100-500. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namless.4028 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:@"Sinful.2165" said:Why anet? Just. Why.Because you can't use technology to solve "people" problems, like someone being too thick to understand that the MMR system is very, very fast to correct for errors.Why would you give a loss in a placement match when a player sits in a corner and does absolutely nothing?IMO upgrade your algorithm to give the person throwing the match all 5 losses and let everyone else try again on a more level playing field. frustratedEven if all 10 placement matches were thrown like this, play 10 "real" matches and you will have the correct MMR. In fact, the only difference between a placement match and a real match is ... during placement they don't tell you what your MMR is. Everything else is identical. ;)During the first matches you gain/loose more mmr than in the later games.When you look into gw2efficiency youll see that the first placement match can mean eiter gain 80 raiting or loose the same ammount Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandlero.6312 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 See, this is where I think a lot of people fail to realize that your placement matches matter more than any other match played. If placement matches are giving +80 per win, then if you win all 10 placement matches (+800) then your effective rating is 1200+800; 2000 or #1 on the current leaderboards. Now no one in NA is above 1750-ish, so I do not think anyone in NA has won all 10 placement matches. As you play more and more matches, eventually your rating will normalize. This happens to everyone. If you notice right now on the NA leaderboards, almost everyone is sitting at a 60%-50% wins to losses. Eventually everyone gets normalized down to a 50% at the end of a season, gaining or losing +1; if you've played enough matches that is. When you hit 50%, that means your played matches don't matter anymore. Now, if you get lucky and get a match against a "better" team and win, of course you can get a big boost in rating; however, the match maker is set-up to match like-skilled opponents. The match maker is actually biased against proving you opportunities to beat a "better" team; most matches are usually rating X versus rating X; the endless cycle of Win 1 and Lose 1. 50-50. Essentially, your first 10 placement matches are the ones that matter the most - if-not the only ones that really matter. Maybe the next 20 matches matter slightly and slightly affect your rating. After 30 matches, essentially there's little impact on your rating (unless you try to game the decay system.)tldr; Your placement matches matter the most. In-fact, your placement matches might be the only matches that matter. That's why in the leaderboards you can see people with rating 1400 at 20 wins and 10 losses and people with rating 1700 with 20 wins and 10 losses. What's the difference? The rating 1700 players won more placement matches. This is why placement matches have become so rife with manipulation and trading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namless.4028 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @"Bandlero.6312" said:See, this is where I think a lot of people fail to realize that your placement matches matter more than any other match played. If placement matches are giving +80 per win, then if you win all 10 placement matches (+800) then your effective rating is 1200+800; 2000 or #1 on the current leaderboards. Now no one in NA is above 1750-ish, so I do not think anyone in NA has won all 10 placement matches. As you play more and more matches, eventually your rating will normalize. This happens to everyone. If you notice right now on the NA leaderboards, almost everyone is sitting at a 60%-50% wins to losses. Eventually everyone gets normalized down to a 50% at the end of a season, gaining or losing +1; if you've played enough matches that is. When you hit 50%, that means your played matches don't matter anymore. Now, if you get lucky and get a match against a "better" team and win, of course you can get a big boost in rating; however, the match maker is set-up to match like-skilled opponents. The match maker is actually biased against proving you opportunities to beat a "better" team; most matches are usually rating X versus rating X; the endless cycle of Win 1 and Lose 1. 50-50. Essentially, your first 10 placement matches are the ones that matter the most - if-not the only ones that really matter. Maybe the next 20 matches matter slightly and slightly affect your rating. After 30 matches, essentially there's little impact on your rating (unless you try to game the decay system.)tldr; Your placement matches matter the most. In-fact, your placement matches might be the only matches that matter. That's why in the leaderboards you can see people with rating 1400 at 20 wins and 10 losses and people with rating 1700 with 20 wins and 10 losses. What's the difference? The rating 1700 players won more placement matches. This is why placement matches have become so rife with manipulation and trading.Only your first 2Then every game means less rating.Also there is only a soft reset.So youll have a higher rating @ the begin of a new season if you had high rating the season before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @Namless.4028 said:@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:@"Sinful.2165" said:Why anet? Just. Why.Because you can't use technology to solve "people" problems, like someone being too thick to understand that the MMR system is very, very fast to correct for errors.Why would you give a loss in a placement match when a player sits in a corner and does absolutely nothing?IMO upgrade your algorithm to give the person throwing the match all 5 losses and let everyone else try again on a more level playing field. frustratedEven if all 10 placement matches were thrown like this, play 10 "real" matches and you will have the correct MMR. In fact, the only difference between a placement match and a real match is ... during placement they don't tell you what your MMR is. Everything else is identical. ;)During the first matches you gain/loose more mmr than in the later games.When you look into gw2efficiency youll see that the first placement match can mean eiter gain 80 raiting or loose the same ammountAbsolutely, and that is why the values are hidden. As long as the confidence estimate stays low, these large movements will continue, and repeatedly getting unexpected results (which being placed too low, or too high, causes) will keep confidence low. Once you are in the right region the magnitude of change will decrease, and you will move more slowly as the system homes in on the correct MMR.There is no magic about the first ten matches, they have have a completely arbitrary starting point -- since it is irrelevant -- and low confidence values.The MMR system is designed to quickly home in on a good approximation of real skill, regardless of noise in the system. All deliberately thrown matches cause is a bit more noise, drawing out the process a little longer.This is equally true of the players on the other side, who "won" two matches because someone was throwing them: they may start higher than their real skill, but then they will go ahead and lose a bunch and end up dropping to the real level they deserve based on skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandlero.6312 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @Namless.4028 said:Only your first 2Then every game means less rating.I over-simplified a bit much to express the point, yea. The first 10 matches really are what sets your rating for the season - every match after that is carrot-stick tricking people into playing thinking they might actually improve their rating or climb a lot. This is why eventually everyone gets stuck in a tier purgatory with the Win 1 Lose 1 loop. Honestly, the way rating and match making is set-up breaks the usage of Glicko; but I think Anet is okay with that because this is how they catch the win-traders in the end. Knowing the top ranked player gets stuck about 1750ish and all players end-up with about 50-60% wins; anyone with more than 60% wins obviously win-traded. That's honestly the only way to truly climb in rating and get better than a 60% win rate - win-trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandlero.6312 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:@Namless.4028 said:@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:@"Sinful.2165" said:Why anet? Just. Why.Because you can't use technology to solve "people" problems, like someone being too thick to understand that the MMR system is very, very fast to correct for errors.Why would you give a loss in a placement match when a player sits in a corner and does absolutely nothing?IMO upgrade your algorithm to give the person throwing the match all 5 losses and let everyone else try again on a more level playing field. frustratedEven if all 10 placement matches were thrown like this, play 10 "real" matches and you will have the correct MMR. In fact, the only difference between a placement match and a real match is ... during placement they don't tell you what your MMR is. Everything else is identical. ;)During the first matches you gain/loose more mmr than in the later games.When you look into gw2efficiency youll see that the first placement match can mean eiter gain 80 raiting or loose the same ammountAbsolutely, and that is why the values are hidden. As long as the confidence estimate stays low, these large movements will continue, and repeatedly getting unexpected results (which being placed too low, or too high, causes) will keep confidence low. Once you are in the right region the magnitude of change will decrease, and you will move more slowly as the system homes in on the correct MMR.There is no magic about the first ten matches, they have have a completely arbitrary starting point -- since it is irrelevant -- and low confidence values.The MMR system is designed to quickly home in on a good approximation of real skill, regardless of noise in the system. All deliberately thrown matches cause is a bit more noise, drawing out the process a little longer.This is equally true of the players on the other side, who "won" two matches because someone was throwing them: they may start higher than their real skill, but then they will go ahead and lose a bunch and end up dropping to the real level they deserve based on skill.Assuming the win-trading and throwing stops at X matches. Which it doesn't. That's the point - the cause - of why manipulation is becoming so rampant now, especially during placement matches. Win your first 10, then win the next X, the confidence/MMR is gamed. The "noise" is not noise anymore. Even if people are win-trading "smart" and purposely losing matches so they don't stand-out; the result ends-up being the same.And to have your MMR rectified, you would have to lose your 10 "real" matches after throwing the first 10. All of the assumptions of the MMR are based upon the assumed derivation from natural, real variables - not artificial. If you always purposely throw/win-trade 70% wins and purposely truly lose 30% real losses - your MMR is still going to reflect 70% wins regardless of "skill." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @Bandlero.6312 said:@"Namless.4028" said:Only your first 2Then every game means less rating.I over-simplified a bit much to express the point, yea. The first 10 matches really are what sets your rating for the seasonThis is really, absolutely, two hundred percent not true. I'm certainly you genuinely and sincerely believe this, but you are incorrect to believe that.every match after that is carrot-stick tricking people into playing thinking they might actually improve their rating or climb a lot. This is why eventually everyone gets stuck in a tier purgatory with the Win 1 Lose 1 loop.That would be the MMR system having an accurate assessment of your MMR. It never stops changing, it just bounces around the actual value, a little up, a little down, delivering as close to balanced matches as possible. So, that isn't exactly "a tier purgatory", but rather, "your skill level purgatory"; even if you believe you should be rated higher, the MMR doesn't agree, and I'm inclined to trust the unemotional machine over your personal impressions, I gotta say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlippyCheeze.5483 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @Bandlero.6312 said:@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:@Namless.4028 said:@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:@"Sinful.2165" said:Why anet? Just. Why.Because you can't use technology to solve "people" problems, like someone being too thick to understand that the MMR system is very, very fast to correct for errors.Why would you give a loss in a placement match when a player sits in a corner and does absolutely nothing?IMO upgrade your algorithm to give the person throwing the match all 5 losses and let everyone else try again on a more level playing field. frustratedEven if all 10 placement matches were thrown like this, play 10 "real" matches and you will have the correct MMR. In fact, the only difference between a placement match and a real match is ... during placement they don't tell you what your MMR is. Everything else is identical. ;)During the first matches you gain/loose more mmr than in the later games.When you look into gw2efficiency youll see that the first placement match can mean eiter gain 80 raiting or loose the same ammountAbsolutely, and that is why the values are hidden. As long as the confidence estimate stays low, these large movements will continue, and repeatedly getting unexpected results (which being placed too low, or too high, causes) will keep confidence low. Once you are in the right region the magnitude of change will decrease, and you will move more slowly as the system homes in on the correct MMR.There is no magic about the first ten matches, they have have a completely arbitrary starting point -- since it is irrelevant -- and low confidence values.The MMR system is designed to quickly home in on a good approximation of real skill, regardless of noise in the system. All deliberately thrown matches cause is a bit more noise, drawing out the process a little longer.This is equally true of the players on the other side, who "won" two matches because someone was throwing them: they may start higher than their real skill, but then they will go ahead and lose a bunch and end up dropping to the real level they deserve based on skill.Assuming the win-trading and throwing stops at X matches. Which it doesn't. That's the point - the cause - of why manipulation is becoming so rampant now, especially during placement matches. Win your first 10, then win the next X, the confidence/MMR is gamed. The "noise" is not noise anymore. Even if people are win-trading "smart" and purposely losing matches so they don't stand-out; the result ends-up being the same.You are completely right here: if every single game played is deliberately manipulated, the results will not reflect actual skill. This is not exactly news, and anyone with any familiarity with, IDK, like, anything, would be well aware that if you cheat in a game literally all the time, the outcome isn't reflective of skill or chance.Are you genuinely asserting that all PvP games in GW2 are deliberately and purposefully manipulated at all times? Because if so, I'm happy to say that given your assumption, your conclusion is correct, and walk away: I have no idea how to respond to that claim. O_oAnd to have your MMR rectified, you would have to lose your 10 "real" matches after throwing the first 10. All of the assumptions of the MMR are based upon the assumed derivation from natural, real variables - not artificial. If you always purposely throw/win-trade 70% wins and purposely truly lose 30% real losses - your MMR is still going to reflect 70% wins regardless of "skill."It sounds like you think MMR directly reflects the win-rate, which isn't true, but even leaving that aside, the situation you outline requires that the hypothetical player is good enough to win 7 out of 10 matches, full stop. So, their MMR will rise, naturally, until they stop being able to win that frequently. They can drop it back down again, to a lower MMR, by throwing matches, but then they will naturally climb again ... to the point the stop being able to win that frequently.If the drop is far enough, that'd be seven wins. If it isn't, it'd be however many wins are required to climb back to the point that MMR stops growing because they reach their natural skill level.You can't simple "lose N, win M" repeatedly and have an infinitely increasing MMR, unless you could also have simple "win M + N" matches, and had an even higher MMR at the end. That's ... just how the system works. If you can win, your MMR increases. If you can't win, it decreases. The amount is dictated by what the system expects, but it ultimately wiggles along at basically your "real" MMR.Again, though, if literally every match you ever play is fully manipulated, none of this can apply, because ... every single match you ever played was manipulated. With that assumption, none of this discussion is worth having, because who among us could do anything in the face of someone with the ability to play only matches they are completely in control of the outcome of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bandlero.6312 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:That would be the MMR system having an accurate assessment of your MMR. It never stops changing, it just bounces around the actual value, a little up, a little down, delivering as close to balanced matches as possible. So, that isn't exactly "a tier purgatory", but rather, "your skill level purgatory"; even if you believe you should be rated higher, the MMR doesn't agree, and I'm inclined to trust the unemotional machine over your personal impressions, I gotta say.Of course totally ignoring that your rating is not actually based upon your actual solo, individual skill rating, but upon the performance rating of sets of compiled teams of "like skilled" players, drawn together "at random." Your rating is actually a measurement of the performance of the teams you've been on. An improper assumption to make is that, because you've been on every team, you are the (sole) cause of your rating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Your rating is directly related to last seasons rating. Placement doesn't mean a whole lot and there's not a lot of volatility with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Ketsu.4569 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:@Bandlero.6312 said:@Namless.4028 said:Only your first 2Then every game means less rating.I over-simplified a bit much to express the point, yea. The first 10 matches really are what sets your rating for the seasonThis is really, absolutely, two hundred percent not true. I'm certainly you genuinely and sincerely believe this, but you are incorrect to believe that.The unfortunate reality is that it doesn't matter if it's true or not, because a lot of players believe placements matter the most. And thus wintrading at the start of a season is at an alltime high. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 If only you could avoid this somehow, like, i don't know, bringing teams back...Here's how you handle toxicity in GW2: You don't...You hide in a corner and hope it goes away! Or do what i did and stop forcing yourself through that terrible experience. There's simply no tools to prevent people from spoiling your game, because Arena Net cares only the bare minimum to make an appearance that it cares about PvP.In other games you can accurately report people, and see reports actioned, you can block people and not be placed with them on your team, you can make your own team by inviting friends or random players.All this allows you to be able to enjoy the game despite the inherent Toxicity of PvP modes.In GW2, Arena Net is still convinced they have the "best community in the world", which is true, for the most part, in PvE, but PvP? I play League of Legends a lot, and that game is infamous for it's toxic community, and yet i enjoy myself much more there, and it's incredibly rare for me to get upset from my team's behaviour, while until i quit GW2's PvP, it rarely came a day that someone wasn't throwing matches left and right, or just complaining about inane stuff. Or simply being frustrated because the game has no balance.@phokus.8934 said:Your rating is directly related to last seasons rating. Placement doesn't mean a whole lot and there's not a lot of volatility with them.Actually, no, according to @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" the matchmaker "soft-resets" everyone's rating to a average score, i think around low gold, iirc, that varies a bit depending on your previous standing, but it doesn't influence your standing as much as, say in LoL, and other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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