Alright, let's talk about the next elite spec. I've got a suggestion.

And I think this one is important.

The next spec should be phantasm focused.

I wasn't happy about the phantasm overhaul and I'm sure a lot of other phantasm build mesmer weren't either. Personally, I'm not interested in shatter based gameplay, I liked mesmer because you could play it two different ways. The only way I saw the phantasm overhaul was giving us fewer options as now, there's only one way to play mesmer. I did not enjoy being forced into shatter and having to reconfigure my build from the ground up. Game design guys, you're supposed to give us more options, not less.

So I think it's really needed for the next spec to be based around phantasm, especially when the last two were centered around shatter. One trait is all we need. _"Phantasms now last 21 seconds, attacking every 3 seconds and count towards the mesmer's total illusion count" _Boom. Just like that, everyone is happy. Us phantasm mesmers get to keep doing what we love and it's isolated to an elite spec so the core class (and the other elite specs) remain untouched and the overhaul is very much still in effect.

I think this is the perfect solution to this issue.

To be honest I don't think passive gameplay should be encouraged.And since the purpose of elitespecs is to change gameplay, I'd rather have an elitespec that frees mesmer from AI reliance.Something that completely moves your dmg from phantasms to other skills, for example into weapon spells like the ritualist in gw1 had.

• by equipping that elitespec, all phantasm summoning skills would change into weapon enhancing spells, that may or may not generate a clone when used up

Its just sad to have to rely on phantasms that just afk and do not attack your target (octovine AB meta).

I didn't find phantasm passive at all. I believe that to be a misconception with phantasm, it's no more passive than ranger is with its pet.

I was just as in the fight as any other class, throwing down reflects, going in for my burst damage, moving all around etc. There was a lot going on.

Just very couple of seconds or so, I'd get a huge burst of damage from my phantasms. Forcing players out of a playstyle is not an answer to anything.

Just get me out of clone/phantasm reliance. As a WvW/GvG chrono i fucking hate that they couldn't introduce a spec that destroys illusions altogether. Hell they even nerfed me with phantasm rework, now phantasm dies before i can do anything with it, since you know i can't even shatter it.

Give me hammer and some kind of phantasmal form WITHOUT ILLUSIONS.

Chrono is already about phantasms with chronophantasma trait, not another spec like this please.

Just no, they're not going to introduce a elite spec that focuses on phantasms ESPECIALLY after all of the work they did with the Mesmer Rework.

Mirage isn't a shatter spec. In fact it is an improved form of the old phantasm spec. Get 3 illusions up and let them auto attack, command them to do a big attack when you want, can shatter if you want/need to and able to get them all back up very quick all while still being able to use illusion generating skills instead of just auto attacking yourself.

@Magek.4718 said:Just very couple of seconds or so, I'd get a huge burst of damage from my phantasms.

One might even say you'd passively get a huge burst of damage now and then...

That's why phantasms are passive play. They are the very definition of it.

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@"Magek.4718" said:Just very couple of seconds or so, I'd get a huge burst of damage from my phantasms.

Maybe if all I did was just set up 3 phantasms and then sit there and spam 1, you'd have a point but I didn't. It was just as involved as any other class.

And even then, games are meant to be fun. Does it really matter what form that fun takes? If I've learned anything working in game design, it's that players will more often than not, never play the way you intend them to. Taking away options from them to try to force them to play the way you want is an extremely bad idea and that's really what happened with the phantasm rework. The fact is, mesmer used to be my favorite class and now, I've got little to no interest in it because what I liked about it is now gone and I know I'm not alone in this because I most certainly wasn't the only phantasm mesmer in the world.

I super don't like the attitude that everyone has to play a class a certain way because that's the way it ought to be. Forcing your players to conform to how you want them to play is extremely bad game design. It's what we call "anti-fun".

So that's why an elite spec is the best solution to this. Keep the rework, leave the core class and the other two elite specs unchanged but give us phantasm mesmers back what we want. That way, literally everyone is happy.>

@EnchantixAqua.5327 said:

Just no, they're not going to introduce a elite spec that focuses on phantasms ESPECIALLY after all of the work they did with the Mesmer Rework.

Quite the opposite. The rework is exactly why this is needed. >

@Sodeni.6041 said:

Chrono is already about phantasms with chronophantasma trait, not another spec like this please.

One extra attack is hardly enough to still play the phantasm playstyle; you're still forced into using shatter. No, that simply isn't good enough.

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@Magek.4718 said:Just very couple of seconds or so, I'd get a huge burst of damage from my phantasms.

Exactly this. We don't need another lazy game play mechanic that's tied to an elite.

There is no NEED for a Phantasm focused elite spec at this point in the game. Besides, no one is forcing you to shatter as Mirage. As support chrono, you're encouraged to shatter to keep up quickness/alacrity for your party/raid. It encourages you to be more active and involved, instead of being lazy like phantasms focused specs would.

@Magek.4718 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@Magek.4718 said:Just very couple of seconds or so, I'd get a huge burst of damage from my phantasms.

Short answer: yes. It matters because this isn't a single-player game. You interact with other people though the balance of the game mechanics. If the mechanics are not fun to interact with from both sides, then the game has failed in its objective.

The fact that you had fun with it is only half of the equation. Passive phantasm play was not fun to interact with and therefore needed to be removed. It will not be brought back.

The mechanic could replace clones and shatters with new forms of skills and a resource that generates instead of summoning a clone.Something like a bard with AoE buffs would be an idea.

@EnchantixAqua.5327 said:There is no NEED for a Phantasm focused elite spec at this point in the game. Besides, no one is forcing you to shatter as Mirage. As support chrono, you're encouraged to shatter to keep up quickness/alacrity for your party/raid. It encourages you to be more active and involved, instead of being lazy like phantasms focused specs would.

There's a big need after the rework happened.

And I've already explained phantasm was far from lazy.

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:

@Magek.4718 said:Just very couple of seconds or so, I'd get a huge burst of damage from my phantasms.

Pretty confident in that aren't you? Yeah, we'll see about that.

Like, I said you'd have a point if phantasm was actually played passively but it wasn't. It's no more passive than ranger or necromancer. Not to mention, they weren't even a problem in PVP. They'd die as soon as they'd show up. Phantasm was suited to PvE where no one would be interacting with it other than the Mesmer using it.

By that logic, ranger should lose their pets and necro should lose their minions because they promote passive gameplay by having AI companions.

I’m aware that you have explained that the phantasm rework is far from lazy in your opinion. I’m telling you that it was incredibly lazy regardless. You can’t compare the Mesmer whose very class mechanic is different from the Necromancer and Ranger.

I want an elite spec which actually feels transformative. Neither of our current elite specs do that, they just add elements to it.

Sure, in theory the changed Mirage-dodge also takes something away but the effect is too minor to truly impact us - in a negative way that is, since staying still while dodging is virtually always a benefit. However, an elite spec where the part I lose is also truly noticable... I want that.

For example, an elite spec without Shatter skills. Or one which cannot actually cause damage in a direct health-bar reducing way because it's "all in your mind". I may have been playing the Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares in Spirit Island too much with that last one. Granted.

I'd love to see Mesmers getting the Longbow as their 3rd Elite Spec, I falled in love in the Beautiful Phantasms in Siren's Landing.Fierce Phantasm has some really nice looking mesmerish archer skills as I recall it right, one of their skill ability was shooting 3 shots of Arrows, beautiful looking pink/purple Arrows... :blush:
Similar to Eir's Volley skill.

I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

Where are you getting 6 years from? I'm assuming the next expansion will be in about 15 months from now. I think the next spec will be a power dps spec, and we'll see chrono trait line changed to be more support centered with even less dps options. But i'd really like a no clone, no phantasm specialization. That would require changing the phantasm and clone skills on all weapons, but seeing as Anet was able to add new skills to all of ele weapons for every attunement, it's definitely doable.

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

Seeing as power chrono benchmarks at 32k while mirage benchmarks at 36k, I'd say you've already got your wish. Congratulations! Enjoy your power dps.

@EnchantixAqua.5327 said:I’m aware that you have explained that the phantasm rework is far from lazy in your opinion. I’m telling you that it was incredibly lazy regardless. You can’t compare the Mesmer whose very class mechanic is different from the Necromancer and Ranger.

Both revolve around AI Reliance just like Phantasm. If you can make an argument against phantasms for being passive, you can make the same argument against pets and minions too.

@"Carighan.6758" said:I want an elite spec which actually feels transformative. Neither of our current elite specs do that, they just add elements to it.

Sure, in theory the changed Mirage-dodge also takes something away but the effect is too minor to truly impact us - in a negative way that is, since staying still while dodging is virtually always a benefit. However, an elite spec where the part I lose is also truly noticable... I want that.

For example, an elite spec without Shatter skills. Or one which cannot actually cause damage in a direct health-bar reducing way because it's "all in your mind". I may have been playing the Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares in Spirit Island too much with that last one. Granted.

I would gladly trade my shatter skills if it meant getting phantasms back. I would be all for this. >

@Alga.6498 said:

I'd love to see Mesmers getting the Longbow as their 3rd Elite Spec, I falled in love in the Beautiful Phantasms in Siren's Landing.Fierce Phantasm has some really nice looking mesmerish archer skills as I recall it right, one of their skill ability was shooting 3 shots of Arrows, beautiful looking pink/purple Arrows... :blush:

Similar to Eir's Volley skill.

I would also be down for this. Good idea.

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

Path of Fire came relatively soon after Heart of Thorns, a lot quicker than I thought it would so it'll be way less than 6 years before the next one. Probably just a year and a half away, actually.

And thanks for the support. I'd also like to see this style of play return, of course. >

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

While I really just want my phantasms back, I will admit, a zero illusion mesmer would be very interesting.

@Magek.4718 said:

@EnchantixAqua.5327 said:I’m aware that you have explained that the phantasm rework is far from lazy in your opinion. I’m telling you that it was incredibly lazy regardless. You can’t compare the Mesmer whose very class mechanic is different from the Necromancer and Ranger.

@"Carighan.6758" said:I want an elite spec which

actually

feels transformative. Neither of our current elite specs do that, they just

add

elements to it.

Sure, in theory the changed Mirage-dodge also takes something away but the effect is too minor to truly impact us - in a negative way that is, since staying still while dodging is virtually always a benefit. However, an elite spec where the part I lose is also truly noticable... I want that.

For example, an elite spec without Shatter skills. Or one which cannot actually cause damage in a direct health-bar reducing way because it's "all in your mind". I may have been playing the Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares in Spirit Island too much with that last one. Granted.

I'd love to see Mesmers getting the Longbow as their 3rd Elite Spec, I falled in love in the Beautiful Phantasms in Siren's Landing.Fierce Phantasm has some really nice looking mesmerish archer skills as I recall it right, one of their skill ability was shooting 3 shots of Arrows, beautiful looking pink/purple Arrows... :blush:

Similar to Eir's Volley skill.

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

I think a one clone specialization could be cool. The one clone mimics the mesmer's attacks and damage. Both clone and the mesmer have a combined health pool of 30k and damage is split between both of them. haha would be OPed AF, but really cool.

@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Magek.4718 said:

@EnchantixAqua.5327 said:I’m aware that you have explained that the phantasm rework is far from lazy in your opinion. I’m telling you that it was incredibly lazy regardless. You can’t compare the Mesmer whose very class mechanic is different from the Necromancer and Ranger.

@"Carighan.6758" said:I want an elite spec which

actually

feels transformative. Neither of our current elite specs do that, they just

add

elements to it.

Sure, in theory the changed Mirage-dodge also takes something away but the effect is too minor to truly impact us - in a negative way that is, since staying still while dodging is virtually always a benefit. However, an elite spec where the part I lose is also truly noticable... I want that.

For example, an elite spec without Shatter skills. Or one which cannot actually cause damage in a direct health-bar reducing way because it's "all in your mind". I may have been playing the Bringer of Dreams and Nightmares in Spirit Island too much with that last one. Granted.

I'd love to see Mesmers getting the Longbow as their 3rd Elite Spec, I falled in love in the Beautiful Phantasms in Siren's Landing.Fierce Phantasm has some really nice looking mesmerish archer skills as I recall it right, one of their skill ability was shooting 3 shots of Arrows, beautiful looking pink/purple Arrows... :blush:

Similar to Eir's Volley skill.

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

@Nepster.4275 said:I'd love to see a mesmer elite spec with power based skills doing somewhat close to mirage damage.I love the mesmer as a class, but its a shame that i can't use it everywhere(except chrono ofc). And i like this whole idea of yours about the new elite spec. But the only thing that I don't get is that why people are thinking about new specs if the next expansion will be in 6 years or so :disappointed_relieved:

I would actually be super down for this.

Give me the option to swap places with my single clone to add to the confusion and that's literally perfect. You'll have a hard time picking out which one is real as it will actually mimic the player. That would actually be more accurate lorewise to what the Mesmer is supposed to be with what we have now.

Like, it doesn't really nail the concept of illusion magic when your illusions are just glorified ammo for a big attack.

Have the elite skill be a multiplication move that creates 3 extra clones that do no damage and die in a single hit. Use the skill again to shuffle all your clones.

Literally, this would be thematically perfect for the Mesmer. I really like it. You nailed the class concept better than Anet did.

Before pof condi mesmer was a thing in raids. Whole gameplay was stack 3 phantasms and press 1 skill on cd. I dont see any active point in that.Once you stack phantasms then you can only dodge and evade and you kill oponent eventualy - this is bad design.If phantasms are huge portion of your damage than that is a problem. Pets on the other hand deal almost 0 compared to phantasms -> no problem.Explain to me what were you doing as phantasm mesmer that made you so active

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:Before pof condi mesmer was a thing in raids. Whole gameplay was stack 3 phantasms and press 1 skill on cd. I dont see any active point in that.Once you stack phantasms then you can only dodge and evade and you kill oponent eventualy - this is bad design.If phantasms are huge portion of your damage than that is a problem. Pets on the other hand deal almost 0 compared to phantasms -> no problem.Explain to me what were you doing as phantasm mesmer that made you so active

I've already explained this.

I was just as in the fight as any other class, throwing down reflects, going in for my burst damage, moving all around etc. There was a lot going on.

It was just as involved as any other class playstyle.