Outdated profession?

So i recently got frustrated with thieves choices for core healing/utility/elite skill and as i browsed all of them i got a feeling that they haven't really changed that much over the years. Curiously i checked all the of skill's version history and here are the things i noticed.

HealingHide in shadows: healing buffed, removes confusion, regeneration duration increasedSignet of malice: healing buffedSkelk venom: cd and duration reduced, healing buffedWithdraw: healing buffed, cd nerfed

UtilityBlinding powder: cd and duration reducedShadow refuge: Nothing relevantShadowstep: Nothing relevantSmoke screen: cd reduced in wvw and pvpAssassins signet: cd reduced, active buff changed from % to flat amount and later buffed, passive stat doubledInfiltrators signet: Nothing relevantSignet of agility: endurance gain nerfed and conditions removed increased in pvp, passive stat doubledSignet of shadows: cd reducedAmbush: Nothing relevantNeedle trap: damage increased, bleed duration increasedTripwire: Nothing relevantCaltrops: overall duration reduced, bleed duration increasedHaste: no longer removes endurance, fury added, duration increased, cd reducedRoll for initiative: cd reduced in pvp/wvwScorpion wire: cd reduced, range increasedDevourer venom: immobilized duration reduced, all venoms gain additional stack, reduce stack by 1, all venom buffs apply to nearby alliesIce drake venom: cd and duration reduced, all venoms gain additional stack, all venom buffs apply to nearby alliesSkale venom: cd and duration reduced, weakness changed to torment, all venoms gain additional stack, all venom buffs apply to to nearby alliesSpider venom: cd and duration reduced, all venoms gain additional stack, all venom buffs apply to nearby allies

EliteBasilisk venom: changes to stun duration, stack size reduced to 1, attacks are unblockable while basilisk venom is active, all venom buffs apply to nearby alliesDagger storm: cd reduced, 100% movement speed increase while active, duration reduced, daggers thrown increased, grants stability, stability tweakedThieves guild: cd and duration reduced in pve and wvw, number of summoned thieves increased to 3

To me it seems like many of the skills havent seen any changes. Only minor cd and duration changes. It feels like other professions got new keywords put into their skills like superspeed, alacrity and resistance. It now makes more sense to me why people are automatically including skills like shadowstep and signet of agility into their builds, there are just very few good core thief skills. I did also check most core weapon skills and many had very few changes made to them.

Feel free to share your opinions on this.

you list what has been done to those skills and claim its not enough,, but you do not propose specific changes that you think would make those skills better. i mean every class has utilities that are commonly used and some that are rather niche, do you want us to agree/disagree that our skills are not good or give specific change suggestions as to what we thing skills would need for us to use them, like this :

i wish shadow trap would have no LoS requirement/be a teleport, not a shadowstep and destroy shadow trap should teleport at the beginning of the cast time with the stunbreak. then we would have a good alternative to shadowstep.

I wish infiltrator arrow worked properly when you shot it on the run instead of consuming initiative and not teleporting you at all. I wish sneak attack nerf was reworked, i wish sword AA had better scalling.

@MUDse.7623 said:you list what has been done to those skills and claim its not enough,, but you do not propose specific changes that you think would make those skills better. i mean every class has utilities that are commonly used and some that are rather niche, do you want us to agree/disagree that our skills are not good or give specific change suggestions as to what we thing skills would need for us to use them, like this :

i wish shadow trap would have no LoS requirement/be a teleport, not a shadowstep and destroy shadow trap should teleport at the beginning of the cast time with the stunbreak. then we would have a good alternative to shadowstep.

Increasing/reducing the skills cd or duration does not make skill function in a different way, its just used less or more often. In your mind i cant point out that core skills look bland, boring and outdated because i do not propose any changes to them? I think that actually is someones job, not mine. I dont want you to agree or disagree, i just wanted opinions on the matter(i wrote it in the bottom).

@Synstylae.2751 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:you list what has been done to those skills and claim its not enough,, but you do not propose specific changes that you think would make those skills better. i mean every class has utilities that are commonly used and some that are rather niche, do you want us to agree/disagree that our skills are not good or give specific change suggestions as to what we thing skills would need for us to use them, like this :

i wish shadow trap would have no LoS requirement/be a teleport, not a shadowstep and destroy shadow trap should teleport at the beginning of the cast time with the stunbreak. then we would have a good alternative to shadowstep.

oh well then..i dont think skills need to change in the way they function as long as they do function properly and are being used. scorpion wire and shadow trap do have some issues that should be addressed. but i see most skills in use aside from some venoms and traps.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Synstylae.2751 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:you list what has been done to those skills and claim its not enough,, but you do not propose specific changes that you think would make those skills better. i mean every class has utilities that are commonly used and some that are rather niche, do you want us to agree/disagree that our skills are not good or give specific change suggestions as to what we thing skills would need for us to use them, like this :

i wish shadow trap would have no LoS requirement/be a teleport, not a shadowstep and destroy shadow trap should teleport at the beginning of the cast time with the stunbreak. then we would have a good alternative to shadowstep.

I doubt you are seeing that many people using them and seeing someone use them does not mean they are good, viable or useful. And remember: just because you are fine with them, does not mean everyone else are. To me it looks like core skills are stuck in 2012, but with less cd. Yay

@Synstylae.2751 said:To me it seems like many of the skills havent seen any changes. Only minor cd and duration changes. It feels like other professions got new keywords put into their skills like superspeed, alacrity and resistance. It now makes more sense to me why people are automatically including skills like shadowstep and signet of agility into their builds, there are just very few good core thief skills. I did also check most core weapon skills and many had very few changes made to them.

Feel free to share your opinions on this.

The Thief profession needs a big update starting with our weapon skills. The healing, utility, and elite should only be adjusted to complement the changes in the weapon skills. The changes you listed changed very little only because there has been no improvement in the weapon skills side. Thus, they are adjusted just as much as the changes to the weapon skills.

A lot of the healing buffs, for example, were done as a kind of compensation for nerfing a lot of the weapon skills. The Thief profession lost a lot of damage potential in the process making it a leather-wearing-Warrior-wannabe. The profession lost its identity and any meaningful updates had been an afterthought or nonexistent.

Looking at the Daredevil. It's a good profession, but it is not a Thief. Looking at the Deadeye, another good profession, but it is not a Thief either.

I have offered an idea before that Thief should keep the Thief identity by focusing on stealth, shadowstep, and steal. The idea is to make a Shadow Mage or an Arcane Thief. Shadow Mage will explore the Shadow Magic realm and the Arcane Thief is basically what the Spellbreaker right now. That idea was for the Thief but the Devs wanted to create a plate-wearing-Thief-wannabe. It would have been a better profession if Full Counter was given to the Thief profession and all other anti-buff skills/traits.

Focusing on the stealth, shadowstep, and steal, a lot of the Thief's utility, heal, and elite skills would have seen big improvements. One of the ideas is to grant evade on shadowstep for Shadow Mage. Arcane Thief would be able to put an opponent's skill on a long cooldown. It is really unfortunate that all we got from the last 2 expansions are very boring Elite Specialization that honestly does not specialize on anything.

Just compare them to Mirage, for example, that this an Elite Specialization of the Phantasm Mesmer. Both Tempest and Spellweaver are definite Elite Specialization of core Elementalist. Scrapper and Holosmith are Elite Spec for Engi. Both Daredevil and Deadeye don't have any connections to Thief whatsoever. This is why our skill sets don't look like it changed, because it really didn't.

We are yet to see a real Elite Specialization of the Thief and the reason why we have not seen it is because the Dev don't even know what the Thief profession is. Or they don't like that fact that the Thief is really about sneaking a really big damaging attack.

@Synstylae.2751 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Synstylae.2751 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:you list what has been done to those skills and claim its not enough,, but you do not propose specific changes that you think would make those skills better. i mean every class has utilities that are commonly used and some that are rather niche, do you want us to agree/disagree that our skills are not good or give specific change suggestions as to what we thing skills would need for us to use them, like this :

i wish shadow trap would have no LoS requirement/be a teleport, not a shadowstep and destroy shadow trap should teleport at the beginning of the cast time with the stunbreak. then we would have a good alternative to shadowstep.

i didnt claim everyone else was fine with them. sure some skills do have rather niche use , but they are useful in that. only because you think thief needs more effects on its utility, heal or elite does not mean that would be good for thief or do you really think anet would give us more stuff for free without affecting any other part of the thief?

thief has core design issues. for example alot of thieves power lies within stealth, yet stealth is not really usefull in PvE and only useful when used shortly in sPvP. the only place were it is of greater use is small scale / solo WvW but thats just a tiny part of the game. yet when balancing thief they will allways have to keep the stealth in mind or the thief will be ridculously OP there. and tbf currently thief is not in a good state overall, yet i get insulted on a daily basis for playing 'broken OP thief build' in WvW.but thats not something that can be fixed with changes to utility/heal/elite skills.

@MUDse.7623 said:oh well then..i dont think skills need to change in the way they function as long as they do function properly and are being used. scorpion wire and shadow trap do have some issues that should be addressed. but i see most skills in use aside from some venoms and traps.

Regarding the latter part of your post; Are you talking PvP or WvW? Because in PvP I dare to say I see literally no-one running anything else but Signet of Agility and Shadowstep, myself included, with the Third slot being only cca 3 different Utilities.SoA and Shadowstep are the two things that all builds ever had always in common.I just wonder if it's because of their tremendous usefulness or lack of other good utilities?

@Alatar.7364 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:oh well then..i dont think skills need to change in the way they function as long as they do function properly and are being used. scorpion wire and shadow trap do have some issues that should be addressed. but i see most skills in use aside from some venoms and traps.

in spvp you are more limited right. in PvE you already take some other skills like caltrops, spider venom, assasins signet etc. and yes in WvW there is use for most skills like scrpion wire to pull of people from a wall , there are actually places to use shadow trap and so on. i run in WvW alot without SoA because i dont need it and while i take shadowstep there are many places where RfI would be better cause there is no valid path all over wich essentially means you got no stunbreak then. thieves in guild groups also run devourer venom. the skills that i think do not really have a use i can think of or are not worth that slot are : ice drake venom, tripwire and ambush. all the other utility skills either i use them regularly or i know builds and situations where other people use them. i dont play thief in instanced PvE for example.and while skills can be improved that are already used but only niche, it probably wont come without a nerf to some other part..

@MUDse.7623 said:

in spvp you are more limited right. in PvE you already take some other skills like caltrops, spider venom, assasins signet etc. and yes in WvW there is use for most skills like scrpion wire to pull of people from a wall , there are actually places to use shadow trap and so on. i run in WvW alot without SoA because i dont need it and while i take shadowstep there are many places where RfI would be better cause there is no valid path all over wich essentially means you got no stunbreak then. thieves in guild groups also run devourer venom. the skills that i think do not really have a use i can think of or are not worth that slot are : ice drake venom, tripwire and ambush. all the other utility skills either i use them regularly or i know builds and situations where other people use them. i dont play thief in instanced PvE for example.and while skills can be improved that are already used but only niche, it probably wont come without a nerf to some other part..

Ok. Thought so it will be this way in WvW, I don't play it much anymore.

Something isn't outdated just because it didn't get changed a whole lot. Outdated in a game can also mean that it just doesn't hold up to todays standards anymore and I believe thief is doing just fine. The thief traps could use some work, or get replaced with a new category entirely tbh but that's my personal opinion

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Looking at the Daredevil. It's a good profession, but it is not a Thief. Looking at the Deadeye, another good profession, but it is not a Thief either.

Daredevil is arguable but Deadeye is very much a Thief, specially since the rework it works great with D/D and works essentially the same as Arcane Tricksters from DnD. In fact its really close to a character i used to play a few years back before PoF was even announced.

People need to stop thinking Deadeye = Rifle. Its a swap weapon, just like Longbow is for Dragon Hunters or Shortbow on Renegade.

@Griever.8150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Looking at the Daredevil. It's a good profession, but it is not a Thief. Looking at the Deadeye, another good profession, but it is not a Thief either.

Deadeye is an assassin (a really bad one since no access to Steal) regardless of the weapon, it's not a Thief. Deadeye mark replacing Steal is counter-intuitive to any melee weapon builds. It faces a dilemma where Rifle wouldn't want to shadowstep closer when pressing F1 while melee build needs that shadowstep on F1 to get closer.

Don't get me wrong, Deadeye is a really good profession, but on its own and not as a Thief specialization. As a Thief Elite Specialization, I expect that Deadeye would improve on one or more aspect of the Thief profession, for example, shadowstep, steal, and stealth. Well, it doesn't. The only real improvement coming from the Deadeye is Shadow Meld which really is useless without access to Steal.

Steal is a very reliable interrupt since it doesn't have an activation time. Deadeye mark is very unreliable and can be counter-interrupted and affected by Slow. Steal can be used as an escape when immobilized by shadowstepping outside danger zones even when immobilized or knockdown - can't do that with DE Mark. Thus the two aspects of being a Thief, infiltration and escape, are lost in Deadeye.

I would just say. If i want improvement for thief. I mean i want better conditions. = bleeding and poison. cuz those are left in the ancient times of Adam and Eve

Thief is indeed an outdated profession, it suffers heavily from bad scaling issues and power creep due to some profound design flaws wich have been made worse by nonsensical changes like the removal of the ricochet trait (which in all honesty should return as a grandmaster trait for trickery). Skills like thief guild should either get a sicnificant buff (just reducing the cooldown for a bit does nothing to make the skill more viable) or be made an always active like the necro summons. The damage of some weapon sets need to get some sicnificant buffs (as in more than +50%) across the borard among other things.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Looking at the Daredevil. It's a good profession, but it is not a Thief. Looking at the Deadeye, another good profession, but it is not a Thief either.

The main improvements of Deadeye are the range and the cantrips.

The Deadyes range gives thief a very strong option for dealing with people who want to get close. And Deadeye keeps the thief's ability to kite if you know what you are doing.

The cantrips are some of thiefs strongest defensive utilities when used right. Binding shadow is incredibly powerful and is the result of a lot of players dying. Shadow flare is a very powerful area denial and defensive retreat for thief when used a bit smartly. The damage it deals is nothing to laugh about as it WILL slam people stupid enough to walk into it. Shadow Gust is best used with timing to get the most out of it. It will give you space if you can't time it anyways. And mercy is nice to use if someone ran away and you can't catch up.

My opinion is that the only reason Deadeye seems bad, is in comparison to other elite specs. It's the only spec that actually makes trade offs that completely changes the playstyle. And the only one with very clear weaknesses. Otherwise it's well designed in my opinion.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Griever.8150 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

Looking at the Daredevil. It's a good profession, but it is not a Thief. Looking at the Deadeye, another good profession, but it is not a Thief either.

My point is, range and cantrips have nothing to do with Thieves. Range is actually inappropriate and incompatible with Thief. These are not improvements for the Thief profession. Both DD and DE don't have any relation with the Thief.

Example; both Tempest and Weavers are built around what Elementalist do, that is manipulating the element, thus these are real Specialization.

The Thief mainly steals, stealths, shadowsteps, ambushes, dirty tricks, and poisons. Acrobatic is just a minor and secondary trait line -- and to be honest, it's also misplaced. Ranged combat is also minor and secondary. So why did made two Elite based on these two secondary skills? Instead of making an Elite on the main skills? That is why these are not Thief specialization.

My opinion is that the only reason Deadeye seems bad, is in comparison to other elite specs. It's the only spec that actually makes trade offs that completely changes the playstyle. And the only one with very clear weaknesses. Otherwise it's well designed in my opinion.

The reason why both Elite seems bad because they are not Thief. Plain and simply.

Deadeye is especially bad because of Deadeye Mark.

• The implementation of this skill as a replacement for Steal is wrong.
• The casting time is wrong.
• Making it as an activated requirement to gain Malice is wrong.
• Steal should have remained in F1, Stolen skill in F2, and Deadeye Mark should be an automatic application.
• Steal is a must have for Thief and removing that is, I believe, a major blunder.
• Malice should be gained automatically when in combat.
• Marking target is nothing but an unnecessary burden and should be reverted back to Steal.

Specialization suggestions;Specialize on Stealing that will include stealing skills and interrupt using Shadow Arts.Specialize on Shadowstep by giving it evasion.Specialize on Stealth by allowing Shadow Form.Specialize on Trickery by giving Thief an array of debilitating skills and traits.Specialize on Poison by making every single Venom skill to deal poison or add actual Poison skills instead of Venom skills.

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Range is actually inappropriate and incompatible with Thief.That's not true at all, you could easily make a bandit elite spec which focuses on pistols and run&gun gameplay mechanics and it would fit just fine thematically. "Stealth, shadowsteps and poison" are not a "requirement" for this "profession" either.

well we could use the "professional thiefs only steal and dont harm People" way for this Profession. i would think this would fit the Name "Thief" best!just:-Remove weapon usage-remove any damaging ability-rework traps to work vs other Player and to decrease mobility more-add ability to steal fom other peoples inventory-Focus spezilisations on how to robb other Player properly-add stealing equipped stuff into some traitline-add ability to remove Soul/account binding from items-add Spezial instance for thief only as "hideout"-add some Kind of prison for caught criminals

@Tails.9372 said:

@"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:Range is actually inappropriate and incompatible with Thief.That's not true at all, you could easily make a bandit elite spec which focuses on pistols and run&gun gameplay mechanics and it would fit just fine thematically. "Stealth, shadowsteps and poison" are not a "requirement" for this "profession" either.

Then that would be a specialization of the Ranger profession and not of Thief.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Range is actually inappropriate and incompatible with Thief.That's not true at all, you could easily make a bandit elite spec which focuses on pistols and run&gun gameplay mechanics and it would fit just fine thematically. "Stealth, shadowsteps and poison" are not a "requirement" for this "profession" either.

Ranger is about synergy with the pet, stealth assassin sniper is thief.

@FlyingK.9720 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Range is actually inappropriate and incompatible with Thief.That's not true at all, you could easily make a bandit elite spec which focuses on pistols and run&gun gameplay mechanics and it would fit just fine thematically. "Stealth, shadowsteps and poison" are not a "requirement" for this "profession" either.

SoulBeast disagrees and Longbow Rangers are sniper assassins since release.

If you still don't realize the problem here, then I have nothing more to say.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@FlyingK.9720 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Range is actually inappropriate and incompatible with Thief.That's not true at all, you could easily make a bandit elite spec which focuses on pistols and run&gun gameplay mechanics and it would fit just fine thematically. "Stealth, shadowsteps and poison" are not a "requirement" for this "profession" either.

Your opinion is incorrect and it would indeed be better if you kept to yourself in the future. Thief has always been traditionally viewed as the one-shot kill class that utilizes stealth, which is irrespective of the chosen weapon and range.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Tails.9372 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Range is actually inappropriate and incompatible with Thief.That's not true at all, you could easily make a bandit elite spec which focuses on pistols and run&gun gameplay mechanics and it would fit just fine thematically. "Stealth, shadowsteps and poison" are not a "requirement" for this "profession" either.

It being a ranger specialisation on the other hand wouldn't make any sense thematically.