Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Ideas to tone down offensive AoEs


Swagger.1459

Recommended Posts

@"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:“We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.”

In wvw only, reduce all ranged AoE and PBAoE attacks, from player skills (not siege), to 3 targets max. Increase damage some to compensate. *Even a change limited to reducing target amounts on ranged AoE skills would be a healthy step...

Necro needs to have their access to ranged AoE skills toned down. Staff skills and Wells are way more than enough, and ranged Shades make it overkill. Necro didn’t need more ranged AoE, it needed mobility...

Edit- As it stands, 1 Scourge using staff has 7 ranged AoEs to use. Now multiply this by 10 Scourges in a squad and you have 70 ranged AoEs being tossed around at any given time. Now lets take 2 opposing sides and make it 20 Scourges pumping out 140 AoEs around the battle field...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39165/healthy-manifest-shade-and-sand-swell-revamp

“1- Change Manifest Shade to a ground target movement skill, and remove Shades and AoE damage function from the equation. This would provide the much needed mobility for necro and reduce some of the unhealthy AoE ranged damage spam in wvw. Let’s call this new skill “Shifting Sands”...

“Shifting Sands uses some of your life force to move around the battle field... Blah blah blah”

-Damage: 177 (0.666)-Cripple (2s): -50% Movement Speed-Number of Targets: 1-Radius: 130-Range: 900

*All other shroud skills remain the same, sans the now gone Shades.

2- Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell to 1,200 range. Remove the damage and boon conversion function. Reduce the cooldown. Make it break stun when used. Similar to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink

“Plunge into the ground, creating a portal through Tyria for allied use. Grant allies using this passage a health barrier. Break Stun.”

-Barrier: 1,618 (0.75)-Duration: 8s-Radius: 180-Range: 1,200-Break Stun-Recharge 30s

I know some traits can change to accommodate this, and I’ll look at those later.

Thanks!”

Edit with some basic "maths"...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash 5 Targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark 5 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark 5 targetsMax Count 3 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Manifest_Sand_Shade 3 targets

  • 1 hammer Revenant and 1 staff Scourge have access to 12 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 54 targets.
  • 2 hammer Revenants and 2 staff Scourges have access to 24 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 108 targets.
  • 3 hammer Revenants and 3 staff Scourges have access to 36 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 162 targets.
  • 4 hammer Revenants and 4 staff Scourges have access to 48 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 216 targets.
  • 5 hammer Revenants and 5 staff Scourges have access to 60 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 270 targets.
  • 6 hammer Revenants and 6 staff Scourges have access to 72 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 324 targets.
  • 7 hammer Revenants and 7 staff Scourges have access to 84 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 378 targets.
  • 8 hammer Revenants and 8 staff Scourges have access to 96 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 432 targets.
  • 9 hammer Revenants and 9 staff Scourges have access to 108 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 486 targets.
  • 10 hammer - Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 120 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 540 targets.

2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,080 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total.

3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 1,620 target ranged AoEs using 1 ranged AoE skill EACH in total.

And we are not even factoring in calculations from other Ranged AoE attacks, PBAoE attacks, Condis, Buffs, Heals, passives... and all sorts of other things the system has to process…

So if we reduced all ranged AoEs in the example above to 3, and remove ranged Shades from Scourge, it looks like this…

NEW NUMBERS USING MY SUGGESTION...https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hammer_Bolt 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Coalescence_of_Ruin 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Smash 3 Targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Drop_the_Hammer 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Necrotic_Grasp 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mark_of_Blood 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chilblains 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Putrid_Mark 3 targetshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper's_Mark 3 targets

  • 1 hammer Revenant and 1 staff Scourge have access to 9 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 27 targets.
  • 2 hammer Revenants and 2 staff Scourges have access to 18 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 54 targets.
  • 3 hammer Revenants and 3 staff Scourges have access to 27 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 81 targets.
  • 4 hammer Revenants and 4 staff Scourges have access to 36 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 108 targets.
  • 5 hammer Revenants and 5 staff Scourges have access to 45 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 135 targets.
  • 6 hammer Revenants and 6 staff Scourges have access to 54 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 162 targets.
  • 7 hammer Revenants and 7 staff Scourges have access to 63 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 189 targets.
  • 8 hammer Revenants and 8 staff Scourges have access to 72 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 216 targets.
  • 9 hammer Revenants and 9 staff Scourges have access to 81 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 243 targets.
  • 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges have access to 90 ranged AoEs. The total number of targets potentially being hit by 1 of each AoE skill combined is 270 targets.

2 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are now producing 540 target ranged AoEs using 1 AoE skill EACH in total.

3 blobs containing 10 hammer Revenants and 10 staff Scourges are producing 810 target ranged AoEs using 1 AoE skill EACH in total.

Now imagine if we extended this 3 target limit to ALL other ranged AoE skills, PBAoE skills, AoE buffs and AoE heals? We could basically cut out HALF of the calculations the system needs to make inside of WvW…

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 153
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@Swagger.1459 said:In wvw only, reduce all ranged AoE and PBAoE attacks, from player skills only (not siege), to 3 targets max. Increase damage some to compensate. *Even a change limited to reducing target amounts on ranged AoE skills would be a healthy step...

No. This has very severe consequences for wvw.

Firstly, by lowering the target cap you directly increase the effectiveness not only stacking to split damage taken but also massively promote arrow carts hitting so many players.

Secondly increasing the damage of all pbaoes would just be bad. I can roll off a 26k instant burst with a core guardian using some of the weaker skills in the game and its basically all pbaoe based. Throw some damage my way and even scourges op as they are become 1 shot fodder for one of the less meta builds out there right now.

The 5 target cap is too heavily implemented to be changed. With these changes you will have 1 blob standing on top of each other hitting 3 enemies with their skills. Meanwhile the healer cap is still 5 as is the boons granted to the party per class. Damage is now split so heavily between the 3 targets being chosen by targeting systems that you enter the no-one-ever-dies-and-in-the-rare-event-someone-does-scourge-says-i-got-you-bro meta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swagger.1459 said:@Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:“We considered the nerfs for passives in WvW. But in the end we were really concerned that the reduced defenses would make large group fights a lot less fun. There are just too many AOEs being flung around.

I'd welcome more discussion though.”

In wvw only, reduce all ranged AoE and PBAoE attacks, from player skills only (not siege), to 3 targets max. Increase damage some to compensate. *Even a change limited to reducing target amounts on ranged AoE skills would be a healthy step...

Necro needs to have their access to ranged AoE skills toned down. Staff skills and Wells are way more than enough, and ranged Shades make it overkill. Necro didn’t need more ranged AoE, it needed mobility...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/39165/healthy-manifest-shade-and-sand-swell-revamp

“1- Change Manifest Shade to a ground target movement skill, and remove Shades and AoE damage function from the equation. This would provide the much needed mobility for necro and reduce some of the unhealthy AoE ranged damage spam in wvw. Let’s call this new skill “Shifting Sands”...

“Shifting Sands uses some of your life force to move around the battle field... Blah blah blah”

-Damage: 177 (0.666)-Cripple (2s): -50% Movement Speed-Number of Targets: 1-Radius: 130-Range: 900

*All other shroud skills remain the same, sans the now gone Shades.

2- Change https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Swell to 1,200 range. Remove the damage and boon conversion function. Reduce the cooldown. Make it break stun when used. Similar to skills like https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadowstep and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Blink

“Plunge into the ground, creating a portal through Tyria for allied use. Grant allies using this passage a health barrier. Break Stun.”

-Barrier: 1,618 (0.75)-Duration: 8s-Radius: 180-Range: 1,200-Break Stun-Recharge 30s

I know some traits can change to accommodate this, and I’ll look at those later.

Thanks!”

not rly a fan of these, lowerihg target cap favors even bigger groups, because they beed to lay down more aoes AND theyd be even harder for smaller groups to kill, because they could tank alot more, more dmg on the single targets? hell no, its already more luck than skill if you die or dont, sometimes you get hit by 2 big skills in a row and just die, because you were unlucky to get hit twice out of 20 or so ppl standing in thatso you either dont get hit at all or just die instantly, where is the fun in that? would render dedicated healers useless aswell, because no one can heal such bursts that quick

and second, i dont like scourges, but taking away most of their range would make them not playable in a zerg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Swagger.1459, those sound interesting but game is so much overwhelmed with AOE spam that has becomes one of the most unskilled games, i think this game needs a more severe skill tune and more skill divesification.

Transform most classes AOE's into cones, then make skills similiar to concecrations, Meteor storm, portals, be the only ones that are AOEtarget based.

Bow's AOE need much smaller radios, bows need their own mechanic IMO, LB need to do much less damadge the closer target is, while shortbow needs to to the oposite sadly Anet manage to bork that and that isnt even working properly since u do same damage at close and far away..... the gap of damage between close an dfar away targets need to be more.Necro AOE's from staff need to be changed(maybe reduce the time of the skills on the ground) and scourge stuff need to be mostly cone based, and needs to loose the range as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gwaihir.1745 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:In wvw only, reduce all ranged AoE and PBAoE attacks, from player skills only (not siege), to 3 targets max. Increase damage some to compensate. *Even a change limited to reducing target amounts on ranged AoE skills would be a healthy step...

No. This has very severe consequences for wvw.

Firstly, by lowering the target cap you directly increase the effectiveness not only stacking to split damage taken but also massively promote arrow carts hitting so many players.

Secondly increasing the damage of all pbaoes would just be bad. I can roll off a 26k instant burst with a core guardian using some of the weaker skills in the game and its basically all pbaoe based. Throw some damage my way and even scourges op as they are become 1 shot fodder for one of the less meta builds out there right now.

The 5 target cap is too heavily implemented to be changed. With these changes you will have 1 blob standing on top of each other hitting 3 enemies with their skills. Meanwhile the healer cap is still 5 as is the boons granted to the party per class. Damage is now split so heavily between the 3 targets being chosen by targeting systems that you enter the no-one-ever-dies-and-in-the-rare-event-someone-does-scourge-says-i-got-you-bro meta.

and that is the whole purpose of siege to promote smart play , aoe is so predominant right now that siege is useless

agreed some aoes deal too much damage to recieve a buff, for example i play power scourge with shade f5, and 2 wells thats 6-8k damage per Pulse in a radius thats like 40k on a group if you keep them from applying protection if they got no armor so 15-20k on armored enemies.

heals and barrier are aoe so those might get lowered to a 3 target cap too

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like it.

a) it will not change necros toxic OP stateb) it will kill of eles for goodc) it will not hurt mirages and deadeyes.

Seriously, there are 3 troublesome profs right now:scourges with their insane condi aoe spammirages and deadeyes with their out-of-stealth-one-shot abilities.

Everything else is basically fine.

Touching target cap will not change any of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I don't like it.

a) it will not change necros toxic OP stateb) it will kill of eles for goodc) it will not hurt mirages and deadeyes.

Seriously, there are 3 troublesome profs right now:scourges with their insane condi aoe spammirages and deadeyes with their out-of-stealth-one-shot abilities.

Everything else is basically fine.

Touching target cap will not change any of it.

Yes there are multiple issues. I’ve brought up those same topics as you have listed. However, there is also a problem with the amount of “AOEs being flung around” in WvW. The devs obviously know by Ben’s quote and so do players. And a change like this doesn’t kill Ele...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Aeolus.3615 said:

Bow's AOE need much smaller radios, bows need their own mechanic IMO, LB need to do much less damadge the closer target is, while shortbow needs to to the oposite sadly Anet manage to bork that and that isnt even working properly since u do same damage at close and far away..... the gap of damage between close an dfar away targets need to be more.

See I don't understand this logic at all. The farther the distance an item travels the less damage it will do. It loses velocity and power. The closer an item is the more damage it should do as most of the kinetic energy is still being transferred to the object. This is basic physics. I'll tell you what, perform an experiment for me. Get yourself a bow and arrow and have a friend shoot you with it from 3 feet away, then repeat that process at 200 yards. Tell me which one hurts more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:I don't like it.

a) it will not change necros toxic OP stateb) it will kill of eles for goodc) it will not hurt mirages and deadeyes.

Seriously, there are 3 troublesome profs right now:scourges with their insane condi aoe spammirages and deadeyes with their out-of-stealth-one-shot abilities.

Everything else is basically fine.

Touching target cap will not change any of it.

i regret to inform you Scourge deals both types of damage so even if you got infinite cleanse you ll be nuked to oblivion by scourge blobs and because of the 10 player target cap stacking with allies wont save ya or your allies

i personally dump 8k damage pulse comboes on my marauder+viper gear scourge

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@oOStaticOo.9467 said:

Bow's AOE need much smaller radios, bows need their own mechanic IMO, LB need to do much less damadge the closer target is, while shortbow needs to to the oposite sadly Anet manage to bork that and that isnt even working properly since u do same damage at close and far away..... the gap of damage between close an dfar away targets need to be more.

See I don't understand this logic at all. The farther the distance an item travels the less damage it will do. It loses velocity and power. The closer an item is the more damage it should do as most of the kinetic energy is still being transferred to the object. This is basic physics. I'll tell you what, perform an experiment for me. Get yourself a bow and arrow and have a friend shoot you with it from 3 feet away, then repeat that process at 200 yards. Tell me which one hurts more.

It is a game that runs arround gimmicks, and LB can reach 3k+ range under certain circumstances, and will do slightly more damage than close range already.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree that AoEs skills on this game are way to powerfull, a AoE skill should never do anywhere close the damage of a single target skill, but this is not true here...more then once got hit by a single Meteor Shower that did 10K+ on my FB that had 3.5K armor+ and protection...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 7 months later...

But what about the other side of the See-Saw: Support Firebrand? I've often heard it compared to a chicken & the egg, or as a parody of an arms race: massive boon spam vs massive boon strip/corrupt.

If you tone down Scourge, you can't leave FB unchanged.

Also, while I rarely if ever play Scourge in WvW, I was never under the impression that Scourge Staff was all that great, but rather it was just used for long range poking until your squad was ready to push forward with shadespam. Talking about Power Scourge though, so is Staff really that good for Condi? Just curious.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:But what about the other side of the See-Saw: Support Firebrand? I've often heard it compared to a chicken & the egg, or as a parody of an arms race: massive boon spam vs massive boon strip/corrupt.

If you tone down Scourge, you can't leave FB unchanged.

Also, while I rarely if ever play Scourge in WvW, I was never under the impression that Scourge Staff was all that great, but rather it was just used for long range poking until your squad was ready to push forward with shadespam. Talking about Power Scourge though, so is Staff really that good for Condi? Just curious.

The main focus of this thread is tackling this issue... "There are just too many AOEs being flung around".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...