Is Joko really immortal? — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Is Joko really immortal?

Avador.8934Avador.8934 Member ✭✭✭

There's always a way to kill the immortal. I wonder what would happen if we just throw him into a volcano... I guess it would be hard to crawl out of it when it literally melts you. And sooner or later we'll probably have to defeat him somehow, and locking him again would not just be repeated history, it would be a bit lame to be honest... It should be more like a 'final' ending next time.

Comments

  • Dayra.7405Dayra.7405 Member ✭✭✭

    At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    In my opinion, Joko is close to the actual "gods" of the humans and the dragons: eternal (if not killed) but not immortal. Well, technically speaking he is dead, so I think he will be "destroyed" rather than killed. Erasing Joko from the existence may be a difficult task - even Balthazar preferred to seal him instead of "killing" / destroying him.
    Everything having a beginning should have an end. Joko turned into a Lich at one certain point in time. That means that at a certain point in the future he will meet his end.
    But if nobody will destroy him, it is very probably to exist till the end of the Universe.

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2018

    Well, two most powerful Liches are already dead, so there is always a way to defeat the last one. Maybe taking control over his staff, using it to Awaken Joko, or Aurene will be strong enough to kill him.

    There is always a way, we just don't know what it is. ;)

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

    Zhaitan died. ;D

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion, Joko is close to the actual "gods" of the humans and the dragons: eternal (if not killed) but not immortal. Well, technically speaking he is dead, so I think he will be "destroyed" rather than killed. Erasing Joko from the existence may be a difficult task - even Balthazar preferred to seal him instead of "killing" / destroying him.
    Everything having a beginning should have an end. Joko turned into a Lich at one certain point in time. That means that at a certain point in the future he will meet his end.
    But if nobody will destroy him, it is very probably to exist till the end of the Universe.

    But despite Balthazars rampage and words he was still concerned about what happens to those who helped him.
    Rytlock freed him so Balthazar spared his life. Joko offered him a source to infuse his forged army. he did not intend to "honor his pact" with joko so he locked him up but did not destroy him to "repay the favor"
    at least thats how im looking into this.

  • Cristalyan.5728Cristalyan.5728 Member ✭✭✭

    @norbes.3620 said:

    But despite Balthazars rampage and words he was still concerned about what happens to those who helped him.
    Rytlock freed him so Balthazar spared his life. Joko offered him a source to infuse his forged army. he did not intend to "honor his pact" with joko so he locked him up but did not destroy him to "repay the favor"
    at least thats how im looking into this.

    When you are going to destroy the entire world with all the inhabitants, you cannot say you are concerned about what happens with the others who helped you. Sparing Rytlock only to see him dying few months later regretting the mistake done in the past?
    As for Joko - Balthazar needed Joko out of the game. Being pressed by time he preferred the easiest method - to seal him. I think killing Joko is a more difficult way than sealing him.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2018

    @Avador.8934 said:
    There's always a way to kill the immortal. I wonder what would happen if we just throw him into a volcano... I guess it would be hard to crawl out of it when it literally melts you. And sooner or later we'll probably have to defeat him somehow, and locking him again would not just be repeated history, it would be a bit lame to be honest... It should be more like a 'final' ending next time.

    IMO, just an super-powerful undead necromancer. Smush him up enough and he won't be coming back. Nothing really seems to suggest powers beyond that.

    I mean, dead, so stabbing him in the heart probably won't do it, but ... volcano probably would, I guess?

  • Orimidu.9604Orimidu.9604 Member ✭✭✭

    We'll put him on that space metorite thing we were stuck in for a bit at the end of Episode 3.

  • Avador.8934Avador.8934 Member ✭✭✭

    @Orimidu.9604 said:
    We'll put him on that space metorite thing we were stuck in for a bit at the end of Episode 3.

    Too bad for Lonai then. (and you meant Episode 2 right?)

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @norbes.3620 said:

    @Cristalyan.5728 said:
    In my opinion, Joko is close to the actual "gods" of the humans and the dragons: eternal (if not killed) but not immortal. Well, technically speaking he is dead, so I think he will be "destroyed" rather than killed. Erasing Joko from the existence may be a difficult task - even Balthazar preferred to seal him instead of "killing" / destroying him.
    Everything having a beginning should have an end. Joko turned into a Lich at one certain point in time. That means that at a certain point in the future he will meet his end.
    But if nobody will destroy him, it is very probably to exist till the end of the Universe.

    But despite Balthazars rampage and words he was still concerned about what happens to those who helped him.
    Rytlock freed him so Balthazar spared his life. Joko offered him a source to infuse his forged army. he did not intend to "honor his pact" with joko so he locked him up but did not destroy him to "repay the favor"
    at least thats how im looking into this.

    I believe he did more of this for practical reasons than for some kind of "concern". Of course, in Rytlock's case there was yes, reciprocity in terms of honor.

    It is also very intriguing that Balthazar indirectly ruined White Mantle, and took care to hide very well the last aspect of Lazarus in the Abaddon reliquary.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2018

    Will their creations also stop working If he turns somehow defunct? Will all the Awakened "die" if he finally "dies"? That would be a HUGE blow to the desert nation, even for the resistance groups.

  • Some possible ways:

    • Brand him.
    • Seal him into a statue.
    • Attack his mind, like how we killed Mordremoth.
  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2018

    @Arden.7480 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

    Zhaitan died. ;D

    Zhaitan wasn't a lich.

    That said, liches are all extremely hard to kill, but not immortal. Nothing seems to be truly immortal (except Dhuum?!?) in the GWverse.

    We've seen three kinds of liches in GW1:

    • The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
    • The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
    • The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

    Joko is most likely of the first kind of lich. This would mean we'd need to rip his very soul out of his body. I can only think of two, possibly three, ways to do this:
    1. Kill him atop of a Bloodstone that's been inscribed with soul batter mursaat magic (there's only one left: the Ring of Fire bloodstone).
    2. Use the Scepter of Orr to command his soul out of his body.
    3. Possibly, using Spectral Agony (or in our case, Signet of Agony) to attack his soul directly, permanently scarring him.
    Third case is unlikely to occur since it would require a Season 3 mastery. First case is unlikely occur due to location. This means we'll likely call in Livia Kerida and locate the Scepter of Orr in Episode 4 (or we contact her and she brings it to us).

    Unless they decide to go the sealing route, or present some stupid "we're so much more powerful that we actually can defeat and kill him in a normal one-on-one fight" that would utterly destroy Joko's backstory with contradictionary plotholes (ANET PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS).

    And a note on the second and third kind, since we don't deal with The Hunter despite knowing it "faked its death", it's possible Zoldark similarly faked its death and thus is still out there. Similarly, it's possible that Fendi Nin's soul had over time reformed like Jahnus' soul in the Desolation (or any other number of non-Foefire souls; seems all souls can so long as they retain the will to do so, but they're much slower at it than Foefire ghosts).

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    Will their creations also stop working If he turns somehow defunct? Will all the Awakened "die" if he finally "dies"? That would be a HUGE blow to the desert nation, even for the resistance groups.

    Well, Khilbron's undead kept going on for six years after his destruction, as we see them in the Depths of Tyria in Eye of the North; however, Zoldark the Unholy's undead fell once Zoldark did. Now it's possible Zoldark did this in his attempt to trick the adventurers into thinking he was truly and fully dead, but it would imply that liches that make themselves immortal do not bind their minions' lives to them while those who make their minions immortal do.

    This would suggest, in turn, that the Awakened will remain roaming about after Joko's destruction, should such an event occur.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • crepuscular.9047crepuscular.9047 Member ✭✭✭✭

    My theory is Joko was one of the two kings in the world that wielded Staff of the Mist, but struck down by the Gods to take the artifact back

    Since Elonians seems to be one of the human races more heavy on religious believes, it would be natural for the Primeval kings to cross him off the lineage for disrespecting the Six

    He became a Lich after death was due to his link to the power of the Staff of the Mist and this thirst for revenge against the Six; similairly Vizier Khilbron became a lich after death was a result of the Scepter of Orr

    [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]     [TTS] [KA] [SI]     [RIP Fashion Wars 2005-2018]
    Praise the Inevitable Eternal Transcendent King Palawa Ignacious Joko, the Beloved and Feared Undying Eternal Monarch of All !!!
    ... til Aurene ate him for dessert 😭
  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crepuscular.9047 said:
    He became a Lich after death was due to his link to the power of the Staff of the Mist and this thirst for revenge against the Six; similairly Vizier Khilbron became a lich after death was a result of the Scepter of Orr

    This is incorrect. The Scepter of Orr did not make Khilbron a lich. The Lost Scrolls did - presuming, of course, that he wasn't a lich prior to the Cataclysm (it's kind of iffy whether he was or not).

    Besides, unlike the Scepter of Orr which dealt with spirits, the Staff of the Mists didn't seem to hold necromantic abilities in the least, as it 'merely' manipulated reality. No reason why that would cause lichdom. Not only that, but the Staff of the Mists' wielder likely would have been struck down in long ancient times, well before 757 AE when Joko showed up. Joko would be 500 years old by the point of GW2; there wasn't a king of Elona for nearly 200 years before Joko entered the scene.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @guildabd.6529 said:
    Some possible ways:

    • Brand him.
    • Seal him into a statue.
    • Attack his mind, like how we killed Mordremoth.

    I get a funny feeling that your top suggestion will happen because then we will have an even larger list of branded by having the awakened corrupted. Then the two Antagonists in the story will be one Antagonist and we already know the Awakened can be branded. Plus if Kralkatorrik wants to bolster his minions, there is an entire army of awakened just south of him.

    Also just because he can’t die doesn’t mean he can’t be incapacitated.

  • Invidia.9074Invidia.9074 Member ✭✭

    Joko going full idiot and attempting to destroy Kralkatorrik (as a threat to his kingdom), only to get Branded without any second thought by the dragon is a possible scenario, but for the lich we are a more pressing threat atm. However I can't rule out the scenario, that Kralkatorrik suddenly appears after recovering from his near-death experience at the hands of Balthazar and creates another Branded area, killing Joko and decimating his armies on our eyes (ArenaNet has a knack for dramatic effects and scenes like this, not that it's a bad thing, btw.).

    As for dealing with liches... a popular motif in fantasy is that liches are so kitten hard to dispose of, because of creation of phylacteries, where they seal parts of their souls, which then allow them to be "reborn". We don't have any actual proof that liches in Tyria do the same, though - this is just my small tangent.

  • Manpag.6421Manpag.6421 Member ✭✭✭

    I have no basis for this, but I wonder if there is some way in which his own power can be turned against him? Awakened are somewhat more sentient than any other form of undead, which means that, while still unquestioningly loyal, their life-force is bound to his. They are linked to him. Obviously, killing them doesn't seem to harm Joko in any way – he'd have been truly dead centuries ago if that was the case – but if there was some way of corrupting that connection perhaps, he could be harmed/killed through his followers...

    We have already met someone whose mind could not be controlled by Joko, whose will clearly surpasses his own and yet, despite inanimate, is still connected to Joko's power...

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

    Zhaitan died. ;D

    Zhaitan wasn't a lich.

    That said, liches are all extremely hard to kill, but not immortal. Nothing seems to be truly immortal (except Dhuum?!?) in the GWverse.

    We've seen three kinds of liches in GW1:

    • The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
    • The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
    • The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

    We also have the case of Bria, who was a powerful necromancer, became an Ascalonian ghost, and in-game is established to not only return when killed, but to eventually regain their full former power. So, we have another path to being a roughly unkillable necromancer there.

    This would suggest, in turn, that the Awakened will remain roaming about after Joko's destruction, should such an event occur.

    I think this is accurate. They don't seem to be "powered" by Joko, just mentally controlled to be unable to disobey his orders. I'd expect them to remain, as a "free people" like the Sylvari are, until death. Presumably they would focus some effort on the preservation of their race, probably well supported by the living members of the region, with who knows what success.

    I'm torn about if I like that outcome or not.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Joko is obviously really Caudecus. And Lazarus. Lazarus was like, if someone’s gonna steal my identity I’ma do one better. Then Caudecaus was like, hold on bruh, I’m coming too.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:
    We also have the case of Bria, who was a powerful necromancer, became an Ascalonian ghost, and in-game is established to not only return when killed, but to eventually regain their full former power. So, we have another path to being a roughly unkillable necromancer there.

    Bria is just a Foefire ghost. The only thing special about her that is different from the other Foefire ghosts, is simply that she retained her sanity and understanding of time's passage.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:
    We also have the case of Bria, who was a powerful necromancer, became an Ascalonian ghost, and in-game is established to not only return when killed, but to eventually regain their full former power. So, we have another path to being a roughly unkillable necromancer there.

    Bria is just a Foefire ghost. The only thing special about her that is different from the other Foefire ghosts, is simply that she retained her sanity and understanding of time's passage.

    In-game they also mention the necromantic powers explicitly, and she has shadow fiends -- minions -- doing her bidding, which are not the ghostly version that other Ascalon ghosts get.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bria
    After the event
    Soldier: A ghost and a necromancer? I didn't know that was possible.
    Scholar Abel: Bria was no ordinary necromancer. Even Adelbern's curse couldn't bind her for long.
    Primus: The Foefire? If she was a ghost of Ascalon, doesn't that mean she will reappear?
    Scholar Abel: Yes, and in time, she will regain all of her strength and abilities, even as a ghost.
    Soldier: Great. Let's get out of here before that happens.
    Scholar Abel: Indeed, and urge your young not to play in these woods any longer.

    I mean, I see your point, but my reading of that is definitely that she is an exception to the general rule, more Joko than Ascalonian Cultist.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:
    I mean, I see your point, but my reading of that is definitely that she is an exception to the general rule, more Joko than Ascalonian Cultist.

    She's an exception to the rule that is Foefire ghosts. She was a powerful necromancer in life, yes, and her becoming a Foefire ghosts made her stronger in those powers. But the only exception she is would be that she has her sanity while others do not.

    The line "A ghost and a necromancer? I didn't know that was possible." is downright in-world ignorance (aka unreliable narrator) given these guys. These are necromancer ghosts who, like Bria, summon spectral minions. Though they're a lot less capable than Bria. But then there's Kasha Blackblood, again a necromancer ghost, who summons unique minions that other Foefire ghosts are incapable of and also she seems to retain her sanity too (shame Rytlock was so hostile with her as we might have been able to work with her).

    Bria is nowhere near the state of Joko. She's just a ghost level of Verata or Oberan in GW1, or Draithor in GW2.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Torn Fierceslash.6375Torn Fierceslash.6375 Member ✭✭
    edited June 21, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

    Zhaitan died. ;D

    Zhaitan wasn't a lich.

    That said, liches are all extremely hard to kill, but not immortal. Nothing seems to be truly immortal (except Dhuum?!?) in the GWverse.

    We've seen three kinds of liches in GW1:

    • The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
    • The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
    • The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

    Joko is most likely of the first kind of lich. This would mean we'd need to rip his very soul out of his body. I can only think of two, possibly three, ways to do this:
    1. Kill him atop of a Bloodstone that's been inscribed with soul batter mursaat magic (there's only one left: the Ring of Fire bloodstone).
    2. Use the Scepter of Orr to command his soul out of his body.
    3. Possibly, using Spectral Agony (or in our case, Signet of Agony) to attack his soul directly, permanently scarring him.
    Third case is unlikely to occur since it would require a Season 3 mastery. First case is unlikely occur due to location. This means we'll likely call in Livia Kerida and locate the Scepter of Orr in Episode 4 (or we contact her and she brings it to us).

    Unless they decide to go the sealing route, or present some stupid "we're so much more powerful that we actually can defeat and kill him in a normal one-on-one fight" that would utterly destroy Joko's backstory with contradictionary plotholes (ANET PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS).

    And a note on the second and third kind, since we don't deal with The Hunter despite knowing it "faked its death", it's possible Zoldark similarly faked its death and thus is still out there. Similarly, it's possible that Fendi Nin's soul had over time reformed like Jahnus' soul in the Desolation (or any other number of non-Foefire souls; seems all souls can so long as they retain the will to do so, but they're much slower at it than Foefire ghosts).

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    Will their creations also stop working If he turns somehow defunct? Will all the Awakened "die" if he finally "dies"? That would be a HUGE blow to the desert nation, even for the resistance groups.

    Well, Khilbron's undead kept going on for six years after his destruction, as we see them in the Depths of Tyria in Eye of the North; however, Zoldark the Unholy's undead fell once Zoldark did. Now it's possible Zoldark did this in his attempt to trick the adventurers into thinking he was truly and fully dead, but it would imply that liches that make themselves immortal do not bind their minions' lives to them while those who make their minions immortal do.

    This would suggest, in turn, that the Awakened will remain roaming about after Joko's destruction, should such an event occur.

    Could there be a 4th option?, like D&D Liches he could have a source of his power destroyed, maybe a Gem, his original grave, a artifact or maybe if he was killed in the mists ( or another world) their would be no way from him to heal himself.

  • norbes.3620norbes.3620 Member ✭✭✭

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

    Zhaitan died. ;D

    Zhaitan wasn't a lich.

    That said, liches are all extremely hard to kill, but not immortal. Nothing seems to be truly immortal (except Dhuum?!?) in the GWverse.

    We've seen three kinds of liches in GW1:

    • The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
    • The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
    • The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

    Joko is most likely of the first kind of lich. This would mean we'd need to rip his very soul out of his body. I can only think of two, possibly three, ways to do this:
    1. Kill him atop of a Bloodstone that's been inscribed with soul batter mursaat magic (there's only one left: the Ring of Fire bloodstone).
    2. Use the Scepter of Orr to command his soul out of his body.
    3. Possibly, using Spectral Agony (or in our case, Signet of Agony) to attack his soul directly, permanently scarring him.
    Third case is unlikely to occur since it would require a Season 3 mastery. First case is unlikely occur due to location. This means we'll likely call in Livia Kerida and locate the Scepter of Orr in Episode 4 (or we contact her and she brings it to us).

    Unless they decide to go the sealing route, or present some stupid "we're so much more powerful that we actually can defeat and kill him in a normal one-on-one fight" that would utterly destroy Joko's backstory with contradictionary plotholes (ANET PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS).

    And a note on the second and third kind, since we don't deal with The Hunter despite knowing it "faked its death", it's possible Zoldark similarly faked its death and thus is still out there. Similarly, it's possible that Fendi Nin's soul had over time reformed like Jahnus' soul in the Desolation (or any other number of non-Foefire souls; seems all souls can so long as they retain the will to do so, but they're much slower at it than Foefire ghosts).

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    Will their creations also stop working If he turns somehow defunct? Will all the Awakened "die" if he finally "dies"? That would be a HUGE blow to the desert nation, even for the resistance groups.

    Well, Khilbron's undead kept going on for six years after his destruction, as we see them in the Depths of Tyria in Eye of the North; however, Zoldark the Unholy's undead fell once Zoldark did. Now it's possible Zoldark did this in his attempt to trick the adventurers into thinking he was truly and fully dead, but it would imply that liches that make themselves immortal do not bind their minions' lives to them while those who make their minions immortal do.

    This would suggest, in turn, that the Awakened will remain roaming about after Joko's destruction, should such an event occur.

    Could there be a 4th option?, like D&D Liches he could have a source of his power destroyed, maybe a Gem, his original grave, a artifact or maybe if he was killed in the mists ( or another world) their would be no way from him to heal himself.

    i would not think of is as impossible but we dont know very much about him so it could could take a while to find the horkrux

  • Arden.7480Arden.7480 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2018

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Arden.7480 said:

    @Dayra.7405 said:
    At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

    Zhaitan died. ;D

    Zhaitan wasn't a lich.

    That said, liches are all extremely hard to kill, but not immortal. Nothing seems to be truly immortal (except Dhuum?!?) in the GWverse.

    We've seen three kinds of liches in GW1:

    • The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
    • The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
    • The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

    Joko is most likely of the first kind of lich. This would mean we'd need to rip his very soul out of his body. I can only think of two, possibly three, ways to do this:
    1. Kill him atop of a Bloodstone that's been inscribed with soul batter mursaat magic (there's only one left: the Ring of Fire bloodstone).
    2. Use the Scepter of Orr to command his soul out of his body.
    3. Possibly, using Spectral Agony (or in our case, Signet of Agony) to attack his soul directly, permanently scarring him.
    Third case is unlikely to occur since it would require a Season 3 mastery. First case is unlikely occur due to location. This means we'll likely call in Livia Kerida and locate the Scepter of Orr in Episode 4 (or we contact her and she brings it to us).

    Unless they decide to go the sealing route, or present some stupid "we're so much more powerful that we actually can defeat and kill him in a normal one-on-one fight" that would utterly destroy Joko's backstory with contradictionary plotholes (ANET PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS).

    And a note on the second and third kind, since we don't deal with The Hunter despite knowing it "faked its death", it's possible Zoldark similarly faked its death and thus is still out there. Similarly, it's possible that Fendi Nin's soul had over time reformed like Jahnus' soul in the Desolation (or any other number of non-Foefire souls; seems all souls can so long as they retain the will to do so, but they're much slower at it than Foefire ghosts).

    Of course Zhaitan wasn't lich, I only meant that it's not like that you can't kill death itself, while you can.

    Seems like Dhuum is only one exception.

    The wound is the place where the Light enters you ~Stephane Lo Presti

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Torn Fierceslash.6375 said:
    Could there be a 4th option?, like D&D Liches he could have a source of his power destroyed, maybe a Gem, his original grave, a artifact or maybe if he was killed in the mists ( or another world) their would be no way from him to heal himself.

    The key difference between D&D liches and GW liches is that D&D liches bind their soul to an artifact, while GW liches have never shown any hint of such.

    Yes, we do get items called phylacteries, but Khilbron was killed while his retroactively-included one was kept intact, and any champion Awakened has a phylactery drop while being very obviously not liches. Indicating that phylacteries hold a very different role in GW than in D&D and simiar lich settings.

    We've never seen an example of someone binding their soul to an object and maintaining a separate body. The only examples of soul binding to objects we get (in chronological order) are: Shiro'ken, Oola's/Inquest golems, Exalted, Forged.

    No examples of someone controlling their walking corpse, just a constructed body replacing their original.

    @Arden.7480 said:
    Of course Zhaitan wasn't lich, I only meant that it's not like that you can't kill death itself, while you can.

    Seems like Dhuum is only one exception.

    Zhaitan is not "death itself" either. Arguably, Dhuum isn't either. We're not quite sure why he can't die, if he truly can't, but it would seem based on his GW2 model and method of sealing that at this point he was killed, and is now nothing more than a disembodied and very powerful soul.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • MithranArkanere.8957MithranArkanere.8957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2018

    There's many ways to make a lich in fantasy, and they are all tricky to kill.

    One of the most common methods Lich stay unkillable is by putting their soul outside their body in a receptacle. Usually called a phylactery. Unless you destroy that, the lich cannot be killed. So they hide the phylactery away in a place they think nobody will ever find it. GW has always draw a lot of inspiration from GW themes, so this could be the case with Joko. But we haven't seen this explained to happen anywhere in the story of either game.

    Some liches are just powerful mages or creatures like dragons that turn into undead naturally when they die, just because of having a lot of magic in their bodies. Those are very powerful, but not as hard to kill as special liches using some gimmick to stay alive.

    In GW1 we saw a particularly nasty method, in which a lich called Fendi Nin managed to keep his soul from leaving the psychical plane. When killed, instead his soul being released to the mists, his spirit appeared in the form of a demon-like wraith and reformed his body in little time. But when Palawa was defeated in the Battle of Jahai nothing of the sort happened. He just didn't die. They could not destroy his body. They had to seal him away under a monument.

    Khilbrom had been dabbling with ancient Orrian magics when he released the cataclysm, and after that he had become a lich. We do not know if he turned into a lich on purpose, or if he became undead because of the magic that caused the Cataclysm. It's perfectly likely agents of Abaddon had a hand on making it easier for him to get such magics from a place like the Reliquaries or the sunken Abaddon temple. However he turned into a lich, the result was that he would just keep coming back until killed after spending enough time over the Bloodstone, which hints he was likely full of 'life force' magic like gw2's necromancers, and he could not return once he was drained of that. There's an item called "Khilbron's Phylactery", but we do not know it it was used to keep his soul or if it was just a keepsake, since the item doesn't have a flavor description.

    Mazdak the Accursed is a powerful lich that is just immune to most forms of damage, except Caladbolg. But he was reanimated by Zhaitan's power into a risen. It's not like he didn't die, it's more like he could not be hurt at all.

    Most other 'liches' we see in the game can be killed by normal means, meaning they are just powerful undead mages.

    There's only one real clue to what kind of power Joko has: Scourges.

    When we talk with the Elite Specialization Scourge NPC, Akesi Xuni, we learn scourge magic is a variation of Palawa's magic. She doesn't explain much, but she does say that Palawa tried to teach a bunch of people his magic. But when they understood Palawa's power and how he wanted to use it, they ran away. We also know that they have changed their magic to be different to what Joko taught them. While joko appears to attach tar and rock to corpses and inject life force into them to animate them and keep them subservient, scourges create sand shades. Basically they put their life force into sand to form shades, then use these shades to protect allies and attack enemies, in what appears to be a little bit of elemental magic mixed with their life force manipulation.

    So from the little we can know, Joko's power appears to be mostly a mix of death magic, Life Force manipulation, and just a little bit of Elemental magic. But that doesn't tell us how he manages to appear seemingly immortal as if he had an infinite source of life force regenerating him so fast he can't be killed and won't stay defeated for long.

    We can only speculate beyond that.
    He filled a leyline system with his tar and keeps leeching magic off Tyria?
    He found one of the two unaccounted bloodstones and managed to link himself to it to keep draining life and death magic off it?
    Maybe some powerful ancient artifact like the scepters of orr and the staff of mists?
    We may never know.

  • Trise.2865Trise.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2018

    First off... something that is immortal can't die. If it can be killed, then it wasn't immortal. Anyway, moving on...

    We know that Joko lives by magic. We know that the dragons consume magic (technically, we only know that Zhaitan consumed magic, but hey...). What if we figure out a way to "feed" Joko's magic to a dragon?

    Kralkatorrik is the most obvious, as the most powerful threat at hand. He's not too bright from what we can tell, so he could be manipulated and lured, but we risk getting ourselves (or worse, Joko) Branded.

    Aurene is much more agreeable. She would be hesitant, but would consume Joko's magic if we asked her to. She isn't exactly stealthy, nor is she strong enough to fight Joko by herself, and tackling the entire Awakened army by ourselves would be suicide. We would have to figure out a way to disable Joko, and get her close enough to eat him, all without raising too much attention... that's asking a lot. The biggest risk here is we hand not only ourselves, but also Aurene over to Joko as Awakened slaves.

    We do have a third option, but it's a long shot... Primordus. As a living lava flow, Primordus can be pretty much anywhere in Tyria, so he can easily emerge in Elona, and his power to incinerate would easily overwhelm Joko's army without risk of "turning" them. Getting Primordus's attention will be very difficult since we don't really know where he is, and he is preoccupied battling both the Dwarves and Jormag. Primordus isn't dumb. Luring him into conflict with Joko (and potentially Kralky) would require some pretty serious blutz waves... but we know how to do that. We know how to affect and direct Leyline energy, because we've studied Scarlet's work directing a burst to awaken Mordremoth. We could reengineer some of that tech to send a focused pulse under the ground, saying "look! there's a big, tasty concentration of magic over here! I sure hope some big, scary, underground Dragon doesn't come try to eat it!"... and we center that pulse directly at the Bone Palace (or wherever Joko happens to be). The benefit to this plan is that we can do it basically from anywhere, as well as drawing Primordus into conflict with Kralkatorrik (and away from us). The downside is: drawing Primordus out and creating this dragon war basically means forfeiting most, if not all, of Elona... and possibly destroying the world in the crossfire.

    If we want ANet to step up their game, then we must step up ours.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Primordus is having a little naptime.

  • No.
    Next question.

  • alphafert.6730alphafert.6730 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2018

    Got no idea

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Avador.8934 said:
    There's always a way to kill the immortal. I wonder what would happen if we just throw him into a volcano... I guess it would be hard to crawl out of it when it literally melts you. And sooner or later we'll probably have to defeat him somehow, and locking him again would not just be repeated history, it would be a bit lame to be honest... It should be more like a 'final' ending next time.

    In GW lore, Liches are near immortal, but they can be killed if their soul or magic is ripped out of them via some means. In GW1, this means killing the Vizier on top of a Bloodstone (which can suck souls of the killed out of their bodies), or attacking Fendi Nin's soul directly when you down him. In GW2, there is another means of doing this -- Elder Dragons can literally eat magic.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Castigator.3470Castigator.3470 Member ✭✭✭

    But can you kill a Lich by destroying its body? Can Aurene's gastric acid dissolve a lich? Even if the soul is tied to a body, the ties are worthless, if the body is gone.
    Plus, a dragon can absorb the magic ties themselves, breaking the magical bond between soul and corpse.
    The dragon's ability to absorb magic energy is the real balance breaker here. Turai Ossa spent three days trying to kill Joko, but ultimately ended up banishing him, because he would just reassemble.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Joko is dead - Aurene basically ate or unbound his magic and ate the rest of him. I guess there is a chance his soul might somehow reappear and they reinsert him into the Halloween picture, but I think that's about it.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Fenom.9457Fenom.9457 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not immortal enough lol

    HARRY! DIDYA PUT YER NAME IN DA GOBLET OF FIYAH?!

  • voodoo.7412voodoo.7412 Member ✭✭
    edited July 1, 2018

    immortal dose not mean he cant be killed
    Balthazar is a example or if u check like elfs in lord of the rings are immortals but can be killed so they don't die of old age but can be killed in wars....
    Joko is near a god himself and can be killed only by something that can absorb the power he got ,so Aurene can as dragons can absorb powers from other dragons and gods.
    im sure he's dead maybe Aurene can raise the dead now.
    maybe he will re appear in the foundry of failed creation like the first lich after he got killed by the titans as you know there a mouth of torment in the desolation we may get access to it again..

  • Malediktus.9250Malediktus.9250 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Immortal and invincible are two different things

  • Lahmia.2193Lahmia.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Aurene's magic > Joko's immortality.

    "Surrender and serve me in life, or die and slave for me in death."

  • Ruadan.9301Ruadan.9301 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2018

    We can definitely say that he is dead(er than usual when is killed) now, if he ever comes back, it will not be anytime soon. However, the devs on reddit seem to have hinted that we should wait and watch out for whether there might be more Joko one day. Whether that confirms his immortality even in regards to having been eaten by a dragon, or whether they're just making him an underworldly Halloween spectre of some sorts, I am not certain. Could also be that they're just talking about flashbacks. Or maybe they don't even know yet, which is perfectly possible.
    However, they seem not to want to say something about Joko never coming back into the franchise.
    Jessica Price in particular gave a little nod to this by saying "Play and find out ;)".

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    She later expanded, though, to clarify she wasn't giving any hints or indication that he would be coming back either. She meant exactly what she said: we're not going to know whether he comes back or not until we play through the future releases.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Ruadan.9301Ruadan.9301 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 3, 2018

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    She later expanded, though, to clarify she wasn't giving any hints or indication that he would be coming back either. She meant exactly what she said: we're not going to know whether he comes back or not until we play through the future releases.

    It seemed she expanded because people started talking about some comment she supposedly made about Lyssa.

    As for Joko, the little wink she gave could in fact indicate he is not forever off the table for future content, which doesn't have to mean he's currently on it either, of course.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    "Guys, you're reading WAY too much into "I can't talk about what we're doing next." There's no secret code underlying these answers, just, literally, I can't talk about what we're doing next," seems pretty conclusive to me, but regardless, it seems like we're reaching the same conclusion from two different directions: Joko's gone for now, but that doesn't mean he might not be back eventually.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Tyson.5160Tyson.5160 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aaron Ansari.1604 said:
    "Guys, you're reading WAY too much into "I can't talk about what we're doing next." There's no secret code underlying these answers, just, literally, I can't talk about what we're doing next," seems pretty conclusive to me, but regardless, it seems like we're reaching the same conclusion from two different directions: Joko's gone for now, but that doesn't mean he might not be back eventually.

    I think he is dead, or errr ultra dead? however I would love for him and his awakened to combat the mad king in Halloween.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voodoo.7412 said:
    immortal dose not mean he cant be killed

    It technically does, but a lot of stories tend to take the idea of unaging and call it "immortality".

    Immortality means "not mortal"; to be mortal is to be able to die; to be not mortal is to be unable to die.

    The gods, Balthazar included, are not immortal. However, for sake of flavor and unreliable narrator, they (and their avatars) may be called "immortal" nonetheless.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    it is also common to forget the distinction between indestructible and immortal. Superman for example have a almost-indestructible body, but not immortal. Joko I think is the reverse, a destructible body but immortal, well til someone have a idea to "digest" him and his magic lolz.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • @Randulf.7614 said:
    I guess there is a chance his soul might somehow reappear and they reinsert him into the Halloween picture, but I think that's about it.

    I could see that. New Haloween quest with the mad king getting us to help drag Joko into the Mad Realm. Having his spirit stuck with King Thorn for eternity would the the absolute worst possible outcome for Joko. His own personal hell.

  • aceofbass.2163aceofbass.2163 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    We've never seen an example of someone binding their soul to an object and maintaining a separate body. The only examples of soul binding to objects we get (in chronological order) are: Shiro'ken, Oola's/Inquest golems, Exalted, Forged.

    Excuse me my good sir. Pardon me for raising a question but wasn't lazarus able to do this?

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @aceofbass.2163 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    We've never seen an example of someone binding their soul to an object and maintaining a separate body. The only examples of soul binding to objects we get (in chronological order) are: Shiro'ken, Oola's/Inquest golems, Exalted, Forged.

    Excuse me my good sir. Pardon me for raising a question but wasn't lazarus able to do this?

    He was able to split his body and soul and implant it into other people and into objects, but he couldn't maintain a (full) separate body, especially at the time of the later. He needed someone to bring them together to allow him any action.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    Idk about other mediums, but have Lichs [Liches?] ever survived being eaten by hungry, magic-absorbing dragons?

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