Is Joko really immortal?

There's always a way to kill the immortal. I wonder what would happen if we just throw him into a volcano... I guess it would be hard to crawl out of it when it literally melts you. And sooner or later we'll probably have to defeat him somehow, and locking him again would not just be repeated history, it would be a bit lame to be honest... It should be more like a 'final' ending next time.

At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

In my opinion, Joko is close to the actual "gods" of the humans and the dragons: eternal (if not killed) but not immortal. Well, technically speaking he is dead, so I think he will be "destroyed" rather than killed. Erasing Joko from the existence may be a difficult task - even Balthazar preferred to seal him instead of "killing" / destroying him.
Everything having a beginning should have an end. Joko turned into a Lich at one certain point in time. That means that at a certain point in the future he will meet his end.But if nobody will destroy him, it is very probably to exist till the end of the Universe.

Well, two most powerful Liches are already dead, so there is always a way to defeat the last one. Maybe taking control over his staff, using it to Awaken Joko, or Aurene will be strong enough to kill him.

There is always a way, we just don't know what it is. ;)

@Dayra.7405 said:At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

Zhaitan died. ;D

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:In my opinion, Joko is close to the actual "gods" of the humans and the dragons: eternal (if not killed) but not immortal. Well, technically speaking he is dead, so I think he will be "destroyed" rather than killed. Erasing Joko from the existence may be a difficult task - even Balthazar preferred to seal him instead of "killing" / destroying him.

Everything having a beginning should have an end. Joko turned into a Lich at one certain point in time. That means that at a certain point in the future he will meet his end.But if nobody will destroy him, it is very probably to exist till the end of the Universe.

But despite Balthazars rampage and words he was still concerned about what happens to those who helped him.Rytlock freed him so Balthazar spared his life. Joko offered him a source to infuse his forged army. he did not intend to "honor his pact" with joko so he locked him up but did not destroy him to "repay the favor"at least thats how im looking into this.

@"norbes.3620" said:

But despite Balthazars rampage and words he was still concerned about what happens to those who helped him.Rytlock freed him so Balthazar spared his life. Joko offered him a source to infuse his forged army. he did not intend to "honor his pact" with joko so he locked him up but did not destroy him to "repay the favor"at least thats how im looking into this.

When you are going to destroy the entire world with all the inhabitants, you cannot say you are concerned about what happens with the others who helped you. Sparing Rytlock only to see him dying few months later regretting the mistake done in the past?As for Joko - Balthazar needed Joko out of the game. Being pressed by time he preferred the easiest method - to seal him. I think killing Joko is a more difficult way than sealing him.

@Avador.8934 said:There's always a way to kill the immortal. I wonder what would happen if we just throw him into a volcano... I guess it would be hard to crawl out of it when it literally melts you. And sooner or later we'll probably have to defeat him somehow, and locking him again would not just be repeated history, it would be a bit lame to be honest... It should be more like a 'final' ending next time.

IMO, just an super-powerful undead necromancer. Smush him up enough and he won't be coming back. Nothing really seems to suggest powers beyond that.

I mean, dead, so stabbing him in the heart probably won't do it, but ... volcano probably would, I guess?

We'll put him on that space metorite thing we were stuck in for a bit at the end of Episode 3.

@Orimidu.9604 said:We'll put him on that space metorite thing we were stuck in for a bit at the end of Episode 3.

Too bad for Lonai then. (and you meant Episode 2 right?)

@norbes.3620 said:

@"Cristalyan.5728" said:In my opinion, Joko is close to the actual "gods" of the humans and the dragons: eternal (if not killed) but not immortal. Well, technically speaking he is dead, so I think he will be "destroyed" rather than killed. Erasing Joko from the existence may be a difficult task - even Balthazar preferred to seal him instead of "killing" / destroying him.

Everything having a beginning should have an end. Joko turned into a Lich at one certain point in time. That means that at a certain point in the future he will meet his end.But if nobody will destroy him, it is very probably to exist till the end of the Universe.

I believe he did more of this for practical reasons than for some kind of "concern". Of course, in Rytlock's case there was yes, reciprocity in terms of honor.

It is also very intriguing that Balthazar indirectly ruined White Mantle, and took care to hide very well the last aspect of Lazarus in the Abaddon reliquary.

Will their creations also stop working If he turns somehow defunct? Will all the Awakened "die" if he finally "dies"? That would be a HUGE blow to the desert nation, even for the resistance groups.

Some possible ways:

• Brand him.
• Seal him into a statue.
• Attack his mind, like how we killed Mordremoth.

@Arden.7480 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

Zhaitan wasn't a lich.

That said, liches are all extremely hard to kill, but not immortal. Nothing seems to be truly immortal (except Dhuum?!?) in the GWverse.

We've seen three kinds of liches in GW1:

• The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
• The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
• The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

Joko is most likely of the first kind of lich. This would mean we'd need to rip his very soul out of his body. I can only think of two, possibly three, ways to do this:

1. Kill him atop of a Bloodstone that's been inscribed with soul batter mursaat magic (there's only one left: the Ring of Fire bloodstone).
2. Use the Scepter of Orr to command his soul out of his body.
3. Possibly, using Spectral Agony (or in our case, Signet of Agony) to attack his soul directly, permanently scarring him.Third case is unlikely to occur since it would require a Season 3 mastery. First case is unlikely occur due to location. This means we'll likely call in Livia Kerida and locate the Scepter of Orr in Episode 4 (or we contact her and she brings it to us).

Unless they decide to go the sealing route, or present some stupid "we're so much more powerful that we actually can defeat and kill him in a normal one-on-one fight" that would utterly destroy Joko's backstory with contradictionary plotholes (ANET PLEASE DO NOT DO THIS).

And a note on the second and third kind, since we don't deal with The Hunter despite knowing it "faked its death", it's possible Zoldark similarly faked its death and thus is still out there. Similarly, it's possible that Fendi Nin's soul had over time reformed like Jahnus' soul in the Desolation (or any other number of non-Foefire souls; seems all souls can so long as they retain the will to do so, but they're much slower at it than Foefire ghosts).

@"Ardid.7203" said:Will their creations also stop working If he turns somehow defunct? Will all the Awakened "die" if he finally "dies"? That would be a HUGE blow to the desert nation, even for the resistance groups.

Well, Khilbron's undead kept going on for six years after his destruction, as we see them in the Depths of Tyria in Eye of the North; however, Zoldark the Unholy's undead fell once Zoldark did. Now it's possible Zoldark did this in his attempt to trick the adventurers into thinking he was truly and fully dead, but it would imply that liches that make themselves immortal do not bind their minions' lives to them while those who make their minions immortal do.

This would suggest, in turn, that the Awakened will remain roaming about after Joko's destruction, should such an event occur.

My theory is Joko was one of the two kings in the world that wielded Staff of the Mist, but struck down by the Gods to take the artifact back

Since Elonians seems to be one of the human races more heavy on religious believes, it would be natural for the Primeval kings to cross him off the lineage for disrespecting the Six

He became a Lich after death was due to his link to the power of the Staff of the Mist and this thirst for revenge against the Six; similairly Vizier Khilbron became a lich after death was a result of the Scepter of Orr

@"crepuscular.9047" said:He became a Lich after death was due to his link to the power of the Staff of the Mist and this thirst for revenge against the Six; similairly Vizier Khilbron became a lich after death was a result of the Scepter of Orr

This is incorrect. The Scepter of Orr did not make Khilbron a lich. The Lost Scrolls did - presuming, of course, that he wasn't a lich prior to the Cataclysm (it's kind of iffy whether he was or not).

Besides, unlike the Scepter of Orr which dealt with spirits, the Staff of the Mists didn't seem to hold necromantic abilities in the least, as it 'merely' manipulated reality. No reason why that would cause lichdom. Not only that, but the Staff of the Mists' wielder likely would have been struck down in long ancient times, well before 757 AE when Joko showed up. Joko would be 500 years old by the point of GW2; there wasn't a king of Elona for nearly 200 years before Joko entered the scene.

@guildabd.6529 said:Some possible ways:

• Brand him.
• Seal him into a statue.
• Attack his mind, like how we killed Mordremoth.

I get a funny feeling that your top suggestion will happen because then we will have an even larger list of branded by having the awakened corrupted. Then the two Antagonists in the story will be one Antagonist and we already know the Awakened can be branded. Plus if Kralkatorrik wants to bolster his minions, there is an entire army of awakened just south of him.

Also just because he can’t die doesn’t mean he can’t be incapacitated.

Joko going full idiot and attempting to destroy Kralkatorrik (as a threat to his kingdom), only to get Branded without any second thought by the dragon is a possible scenario, but for the lich we are a more pressing threat atm. However I can't rule out the scenario, that Kralkatorrik suddenly appears after recovering from his near-death experience at the hands of Balthazar and creates another Branded area, killing Joko and decimating his armies on our eyes (ArenaNet has a knack for dramatic effects and scenes like this, not that it's a bad thing, btw.).

As for dealing with liches... a popular motif in fantasy is that liches are so damn hard to dispose of, because of creation of phylacteries, where they seal parts of their souls, which then allow them to be "reborn". We don't have any actual proof that liches in Tyria do the same, though - this is just my small tangent.

I have no basis for this, but I wonder if there is some way in which his own power can be turned against him? Awakened are somewhat more sentient than any other form of undead, which means that, while still unquestioningly loyal, their life-force is bound to his. They are linked to him. Obviously, killing them doesn't seem to harm Joko in any way – he'd have been truly dead centuries ago if that was the case – but if there was some way of corrupting that connection perhaps, he could be harmed/killed through his followers...

We have already met someone whose mind could not be controlled by Joko, whose will clearly surpasses his own and yet, despite inanimate, is still connected to Joko's power...

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Arden.7480 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

• The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
• The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
• The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

We also have the case of Bria, who was a powerful necromancer, became an Ascalonian ghost, and in-game is established to not only return when killed, but to eventually regain their full former power. So, we have another path to being a roughly unkillable necromancer there.

This would suggest, in turn, that the Awakened will remain roaming about after Joko's destruction, should such an event occur.

I think this is accurate. They don't seem to be "powered" by Joko, just mentally controlled to be unable to disobey his orders. I'd expect them to remain, as a "free people" like the Sylvari are, until death. Presumably they would focus some effort on the preservation of their race, probably well supported by the living members of the region, with who knows what success.

I'm torn about if I like that outcome or not.

Joko is obviously really Caudecus. And Lazarus. Lazarus was like, if someone’s gonna steal my identity I’ma do one better. Then Caudecaus was like, hold on bruh, I’m coming too.

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:We also have the case of Bria, who was a powerful necromancer, became an Ascalonian ghost, and in-game is established to not only return when killed, but to eventually regain their full former power. So, we have another path to being a roughly unkillable necromancer there.Bria is just a Foefire ghost. The only thing special about her that is different from the other Foefire ghosts, is simply that she retained her sanity and understanding of time's passage.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:We also have the case of Bria, who was a powerful necromancer, became an Ascalonian ghost, and in-game is established to not only return when killed, but to eventually regain their full former power. So, we have another path to being a roughly unkillable necromancer there.Bria is just a Foefire ghost. The only thing special about her that is different from the other Foefire ghosts, is simply that she retained her sanity and understanding of time's passage.

In-game they also mention the necromantic powers explicitly, and she has shadow fiends -- minions -- doing her bidding, which are not the ghostly version that other Ascalon ghosts get.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/BriaAfter the eventSoldier: A ghost and a necromancer? I didn't know that was possible.Scholar Abel: Bria was no ordinary necromancer. Even Adelbern's curse couldn't bind her for long.Primus: The Foefire? If she was a ghost of Ascalon, doesn't that mean she will reappear?Scholar Abel: Yes, and in time, she will regain all of her strength and abilities, even as a ghost.Soldier: Great. Let's get out of here before that happens.Scholar Abel: Indeed, and urge your young not to play in these woods any longer.

I mean, I see your point, but my reading of that is definitely that she is an exception to the general rule, more Joko than Ascalonian Cultist.

@"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:I mean, I see your point, but my reading of that is definitely that she is an exception to the general rule, more Joko than Ascalonian Cultist.

She's an exception to the rule that is Foefire ghosts. She was a powerful necromancer in life, yes, and her becoming a Foefire ghosts made her stronger in those powers. But the only exception she is would be that she has her sanity while others do not.

The line "A ghost and a necromancer? I didn't know that was possible." is downright in-world ignorance (aka unreliable narrator) given these guys. These are necromancer ghosts who, like Bria, summon spectral minions. Though they're a lot less capable than Bria. But then there's Kasha Blackblood, again a necromancer ghost, who summons unique minions that other Foefire ghosts are incapable of and also she seems to retain her sanity too (shame Rytlock was so hostile with her as we might have been able to work with her).

Bria is nowhere near the state of Joko. She's just a ghost level of Verata or Oberan in GW1, or Draithor in GW2.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Arden.7480 said:

@"Dayra.7405" said:At least he cannot die, as he is already dead ;)

• The first kind seemed unkillable, but was felled by ripping its soul out of its body using powerful magic of the Bloodstone. Khilbron (and The Hunter).
• The second kind was easily killable (or so it seemed) but made minions that kept coming back on their own. Zoldark the Unholy.
• The third kind was seemingly killable, but hard to do so; sort of a mix of the two above, every time its body was killed its soul was released and it could only be destroyed by dispersing the soul, it similarly kept bringing back minions with ease. Fendi Nin.

1. Kill him atop of a Bloodstone that's been inscribed with soul batter mursaat magic (there's only one left: the Ring of Fire bloodstone).
2. Use the Scepter of Orr to command his soul out of his body.
3. Possibly, using Spectral Agony (or in our case, Signet of Agony) to attack his soul directly, permanently scarring him.Third case is unlikely to occur since it would require a Season 3 mastery. First case is unlikely occur due to location. This means we'll likely call in
   Livia
   Kerida and locate the Scepter of Orr in Episode 4 (or we contact her and she brings it to us).

@"Ardid.7203" said:Will their creations also stop working If he turns somehow defunct? Will all the Awakened "die" if he finally "dies"? That would be a HUGE blow to the desert nation, even for the resistance groups.

Could there be a 4th option?, like D&D Liches he could have a source of his power destroyed, maybe a Gem, his original grave, a artifact or maybe if he was killed in the mists ( or another world) their would be no way from him to heal himself.