Why Condi thief is bad for the game — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Why Condi thief is bad for the game

Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

Sanity is for the weak minded
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  • Thumbs up, really informative and on point.

  • Madisonlee.9641Madisonlee.9641 Member ✭✭✭

    This quote from you sums it up "They never fix the root issue." They just like to tweak CDs and damage of things rather than fix the core of the problem.

  • witcher.3197witcher.3197 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    its not just condi thief , it's condi mirage as well....it's just really over tuned for no reason at all. we're back to condi mirage being complete busted after the overall mesmer nerf/rework that was done. It kills the point of the rework...........

    Are you implying anything about that rework was done with PvP in mind?

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @witcher.3197 said:

    @zoopop.5630 said:
    its not just condi thief , it's condi mirage as well....it's just really over tuned for no reason at all. we're back to condi mirage being complete busted after the overall mesmer nerf/rework that was done. It kills the point of the rework...........

    Are you implying anything about that rework was done with PvP in mind?

    I'm implying that the "rework for confusion" was done with PvP In mind.... so yes, their was no other real reason to change it. It was fine for Pve no one complained about it during raids.

  • Madisonlee.9641Madisonlee.9641 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2018

    Another reason to do complete skill splitting for game modes. PVP should be first priority, as something over-tuned in this competitive game mode is incredibly detrimental. In pve. . like. .what, you having trouble killing an AI boss or something because your class isn't the strongest? lol I honestly can't understand why people find killing NPCS fun but w/e

  • brannigan.9831brannigan.9831 Member ✭✭✭

    They forgot about it (mesmer and thief brain dead condi builds) because other builds were stronger. Then they nerf those builds and the other bad builds become popular again. Its really stupid on A-nets part.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭

    Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

  • @Gamble.4580 said:
    Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

    a normal condi thief can ruin the hole game of a good power thief

  • Griever.8150Griever.8150 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2018

    @OP You're entirely right but looking at the last few patch notes, what the hell do you want Thief players to play?

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭

    @Arlowslol.1974 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

    a normal condi thief can ruin the hole game of a good power thief

    Not seen that ever in any plat and above games, d/d condi can be annoying but I won't waste my time I will leave them on their 1v1 decap far +1 mid kill a loan walker +1 far kill a boss make a cup of tea then when that thf finally kills the guy I will jump him and one burst him dead.

  • @Gamble.4580 said:

    @Arlowslol.1974 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

    a normal condi thief can ruin the hole game of a good power thief

    Not seen that ever in any plat and above games, d/d condi can be annoying but I won't waste my time I will leave them on their 1v1 decap far +1 mid kill a loan walker +1 far kill a boss make a cup of tea then when that thf finally kills the guy I will jump him and one burst him dead.

    d/d?

    make my laugh

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Griever.8150 said:
    You have a point but its hard to take seriously has your dream scenario is for Thieves to have absolutely no viable build at all. P.S I don't play Condi anything, its not my type of playstyle but look at the last few patch notes and you might figure out why everybody else switched to it.

    Because that's totally what the OP's video was about.

    Anyway, excellent video OP.

    I remember in Season 8 when Condi DD showed up for the first time and thinking it was one of the worst builds in the game. And now the dumb thing is back with a vengeance.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    There are multiple condi thief builds. D/D, P/D and S/D. Each play differently but rely on a mix of shared mechanics to apply conditions. Each also have relative advantages and disadvantages.

    “Nerf condi thief” is too general of a statement. Ok, which one? Why? What is the specific change you are suggesting? Does this change impact other builds? Is the nerf tailored to address the issue or is the suggestion so broad it effectively removes the build from the game?

    I never said nerf, what I said is that condi thief needs to have it's mechanics revised so that it's damage is tied to specific skill combos rather than coming from a mass of trait procs that can be triggered by practically anything. Moreover I would like to see thief's torment application replaced with either poison or bleeding. Also Sigil of Fallibility should not exist.

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    There are multiple condi thief builds. D/D, P/D and S/D. Each play differently but rely on a mix of shared mechanics to apply conditions. Each also have relative advantages and disadvantages.

    “Nerf condi thief” is too general of a statement. Ok, which one? Why? What is the specific change you are suggesting? Does this change impact other builds? Is the nerf tailored to address the issue or is the suggestion so broad it effectively removes the build from the game?

    I never said nerf, what I said is that condi thief needs to have it's mechanics revised so that it's damage is tied to specific skill combos rather than coming from a mass of trait procs that can be triggered by practically anything. Moreover I would like to see thief's torment application replaced with either poison or bleeding. Also Sigil of Fallibility should not exist.

    A mass of trait procs?

    Several traits give steal/mark condi application. The other is Lotus dodge on Daredevil and to a lesser extent the poison application through DA’s Panic Strike and Potent Poison.

    So it’s not “practically anything.” It’s steal, the thief primary mechanic, and any skill that applies immobilize which are Shortbow Stealth Attack, Body Shot, S/D 2. Two stacks of poison at 50% hp isn’t really all that impactful.

    So as far as skill combos I’m not sure what you are demanding be changed about specific traits. If you want to reduce condi on steal, for example, you’d need to buff the condi on weapons themselves. Otherwise it would indeed be a nerf.

    Also, I doubt you are going to reduce thief’s torment application. Anet clearly wants P/D to be torment based with two different skills that use that condition. It’s all on the weapon so unless you are narrowly talking about needing Lotus dodge I’m not sure what you want here.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I’m just responding to your statement above. I don’t have headphones atm so I didn’t watch the video. But if you would mind summarizing briefly I’ll respond accordingly assuming there is more detail in the actual video about your claimed issues.

    As to your “that doesn’t apply because it’s not a common build” argument, the changes to P/D are recent. Naturally, fewer people run torment P/D because the torment application on Dancing Dagger is new and the 4 stacks on Shadow Strike just got normalized. But, regardless, just because you think a build is bad doesn’t make the balance design not torment focused. All I’m saying is Anet is unlikely to remove torment when they are clearly intentionally giving thief more torment rather than less.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • All right, let's assume a situation. You are taking a point when suddenly a condition thief appears and this thief leaves you immobilized and exploding with various conditions. So they move away from that point, but it's still there near you when they suddenly repeat the same cycle and again immobilize and explode you with conditions. A thief should not force you to get out of a point like this unless he is very good. Some people need to understand some questions:

    1- This build is something so SICK that it does not require any work for you to blow up the conditions.
    2- Most players who play with thieves are switching to this build, from there you realize something is wrong.
    3- The stunbreak issue does not say much, since you will hardly be able to stun it while it may be immobilizing you, leaving and returning, until you die.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All mesmer builds get gank ez by this build.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @RayssaMoreira.3728 said:
    All right, let's assume a situation. You are taking a point when suddenly a condition thief appears and this thief leaves you immobilized and exploding with various conditions. So they move away from that point, but it's still there near you when they suddenly repeat the same cycle and again immobilize and explode you with conditions. A thief should not force you to get out of a point like this unless he is very good. Some people need to understand some questions:

    1- This build is something so SICK that it does not require any work for you to blow up the conditions.
    2- Most players who play with thieves are switching to this build, from there you realize something is wrong.
    3- The stunbreak issue does not say much, since you will hardly be able to stun it while it may be immobilizing you, leaving and returning, until you die.

    What profession / build are you playing?

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • BeepBoopBop.5403BeepBoopBop.5403 Member ✭✭✭

    Moving conditions to weapon skills for thief is not as easy as you think. Thief doesn't just blow 4 CDs then swap weapons and repeat.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2018

    The conclusions are not supported by the facts. It claimed it because TRAITS are adding the Conditions rather then the weapon skills and suggested this not the same as other classes. There a number of TRAITS across all professions that add to Condition damage. As example Warrior can add conditions everytime they get a stun. They can increase conditions added with critical strikes.

    s/s warrior adds conditions on evry single one of the attacks in the AA chain. They can then add conditions with savage leap #2 impale #4 and riposte #5. By taking arms they then add more bleeds on crit while garnering longer durations (just like potent poison) and higher condition power. How is that different than what the thief can do? Where something like Venoms goes on a 30 second cooldown, Bleed on Crit has no such thing nor does confusion on stun. Where the base duration of the poison off the IMMOB for thief 4 seconds and 2 seconds for dagger trainingy , bloodlust has a 5 second base bleed and the AA bleeds last 8 seconds

    This is not a Burst issue or too many traits allowing conditions. In comparative terms Warrior can load up more condition stacks based on weapon skills and traits. The thief advantage is the same one they have across the board due to the nature of the class and that is it hard to hit and pin down.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The conclusions are not supported by the facts. It claimed it because TRAITS are adding the Conditions rather then the weapon skills and suggested this not the same as other classes. There a number of TRAITS across all professions that add to Condition damage. As example Warrior can add conditions everytime they get a stun. They can increase conditions added with critical strikes.

    s/s warrior adds conditions on evry single one of the attacks in the AA chain. They can then add conditions with savage leap #2 impale #4 and riposte #5. By taking arms they then add more bleeds on crit while garnering longer durations (just like potent poison) and higher condition power. How is that different than what the thief can do? Where something like Venoms goes on a 30 second cooldown, Bleed on Crit has no such thing nor does confusion on stun. Where the base duration of the poison off the IMMOB for thief 4 seconds and 2 seconds for dagger trainingy , bloodlust has a 5 second base bleed and the AA bleeds last 8 seconds

    This is not a Burst issue or too many traits allowing conditions. In comparative terms Warrior can load up more condition stacks based on weapon skills and traits. The thief advantage is the same one they have across the board due to the nature of the class and that is it hard to hit and pin down.

    Well we know what you play. lol.. So decided to try the build myself.. I really a noob to thief.. But i am a vet since the last 5 years on this game. My keyboard coordination is really good. & i can tell you right away... this is one of the most cheesy builds iv ever played since lauch. I just need to keep dodging & dodging then keep away for a sec then back to dodging & dodging.. a bit of AA & my target is filled up with condis. & can't keep up on clearing them. If he does i just pop more. It's ridiculous.. There's absolutely no skill's involved. The OP's is right. All the damage come from traits. You really need minimal play on ur skill's. This is beyond ridiculous. Funny when i play my mesmers & get downed by players using the same build, they got the audacity to call them selves pros. NO! this is not pro playing or skill playing. OP's is right 100% thief needs to be changed

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Jalal.6783Jalal.6783 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2018

    I knew it was kitten but seeing this by god what a kitten mess we have here. What were they even thinking?

  • Jalal.6783Jalal.6783 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 21, 2018

    @Gamble.4580 said:

    @Arlowslol.1974 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

    a normal condi thief can ruin the hole game of a good power thief

    Not seen that ever in any plat and above games, d/d condi can be annoying but I won't waste my time I will leave them on their 1v1 decap far +1 mid kill a loan walker +1 far kill a boss make a cup of tea then when that thf finally kills the guy I will jump him and one burst him dead.

    What? are you kidding? I'm plat 2 and I see this build at least once every 3 games and more often than not, every other game and this is just for the enemy team. I'm sure my teams probably run it about as often as the enemy does so realistically, close to every game there is one.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2018

    @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The conclusions are not supported by the facts. It claimed it because TRAITS are adding the Conditions rather then the weapon skills and suggested this not the same as other classes. There a number of TRAITS across all professions that add to Condition damage. As example Warrior can add conditions everytime they get a stun. They can increase conditions added with critical strikes.

    s/s warrior adds conditions on evry single one of the attacks in the AA chain. They can then add conditions with savage leap #2 impale #4 and riposte #5. By taking arms they then add more bleeds on crit while garnering longer durations (just like potent poison) and higher condition power. How is that different than what the thief can do? Where something like Venoms goes on a 30 second cooldown, Bleed on Crit has no such thing nor does confusion on stun. Where the base duration of the poison off the IMMOB for thief 4 seconds and 2 seconds for dagger trainingy , bloodlust has a 5 second base bleed and the AA bleeds last 8 seconds

    This is not a Burst issue or too many traits allowing conditions. In comparative terms Warrior can load up more condition stacks based on weapon skills and traits. The thief advantage is the same one they have across the board due to the nature of the class and that is it hard to hit and pin down.

    Well we know what you play. lol.. So decided to try the build myself.. I really a noob to thief.. But i am a vet since the last 5 years on this game. My keyboard coordination is really good. & i can tell you right away... this is one of the most cheesy builds iv ever played since lauch. I just need to keep dodging & dodging then keep away for a sec then back to dodging & dodging.. a bit of AA & my target is filled up with condis. & can't keep up on clearing them. If he does i just pop more. It's ridiculous.. There's absolutely no skill's involved. The OP's is right. All the damage come from traits. You really need minimal play on ur skill's. This is beyond ridiculous. Funny when i play my mesmers & get downed by players using the same build, they got the audacity to call them selves pros. NO! this is not pro playing or skill playing. OP's is right 100% thief needs to be changed

    No you do NOT know what I play. I do not play a s/d condition thief. P/d condition outperfroms them damage wise.I do have a power thief s/d . . Yous aid the OP was right nd then pointed to all the ports and evades you had available to you. Those ports and evades have NOTHING to do with taking Condition adds in the traits. They are inherent to s/d thief.

    One more time. Using a warrior I get as many bleeds added via TRAITS to my weapon skills and Have the advantage of my weapon skills all having Conditions added outside # 3. One more time the reason that thief build works as it does is not due to the amount of conditions as in comparative terms other condition builds add more. it because the s/d Thief hard to attack.

    As to utilities, a number of classes have utilities that add conditions. That they might add them DIRECTLY rather then to weapon first and then to target is immaterial . it still a condition add.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭

    @Jalal.6783 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:

    @Arlowslol.1974 said:

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    Condi thf is a great noob friendly build for new thfa for pvp, but a high skilled dps thf will I packed game allot more as well as take the Condi thf out of the game.

    a normal condi thief can ruin the hole game of a good power thief

    Not seen that ever in any plat and above games, d/d condi can be annoying but I won't waste my time I will leave them on their 1v1 decap far +1 mid kill a loan walker +1 far kill a boss make a cup of tea then when that thf finally kills the guy I will jump him and one burst him dead.

    What? are you kidding? I'm plat 2 and I see this build at least once every 3 game and usually ever 2 games and this is just for the enemy team. I'm sure my teams probably run it about as often as the enemy does so realistically, it has probably in close to every game

    EU or Na?

  • Look man, I agree with you that condi thief is bad for the game in its current state, but how are you going to totally dismiss steal as this unimportant skill and then talk in depth about traits like dagger training and pressure striking? You don't even take those

    Condi thief is just like the other specs you listed where there are specific skills you need to avoid. The problem is that those skills happen to be steal and spider venom, which are instant-cast abilities with zero counter-play. The super important, must-avoid skills are unavoidable if the thief player has a pulse

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭

    Yes it has a nice condi burst that's hard to avoid but you know why we don't cry about condi thf? That's because core grd rapes it war mes eng can beat it once they understand the class and can beat it 100% when they relize how they beat it the first time and every thf can counter it and rng laughs at it. Only necro has to put the 110% in to beat it. Condi thf is a noob killer but it's not over powered as it's soo easy countered once you know how. If it's killing you I hate to say it but it's a you issue no game, look at your build and make a condi thf play it and watch how people kill you and how they did it. Mes is overpowered, eng cc chain is over powered, wars fishing skills is over power, grd has to many condi clear with to much dps, I could go on but I won't as I feel this season has been the most balanced it's ever been even rev is shining at mo. If there is a patch I hope they only touch rev.

  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    It's again an issue of skills having no casting times.

    And again the biggest offenders by far are thieves and mesmers.
    Add them casting times or tone down all those skills, choose.

  • Gamble.4580Gamble.4580 Member ✭✭

    This season has been amazing you know why, I am seeing only 1 mes a game I am seeing grds on different builds, I see a bloody rev in every other game what is 1million % better than last season. Necro play reaper and scourge, I am seeing rangers do well with different roles they can play with fishing point holding and team play, thf has more than 1 meta that makes it exciting as u don't know what build they going to hit you with. And I have seen more than fb bunkers shining I. E ele and scrapper, I was bloody shocked to see how well scrapper is doing vs this meta. So yes I do feel it's balance

  • Alatar.7364Alatar.7364 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gamble.4580 said:
    This season has been amazing you know why, I am seeing only 1 mes a game I am seeing grds on different builds, I see a bloody rev in every other game what is 1million % better than last season. Necro play reaper and scourge, I am seeing rangers do well with different roles they can play with fishing point holding and team play, thf has more than 1 meta that makes it exciting as u don't know what build they going to hit you with. And I have seen more than fb bunkers shining I. E ele and scrapper, I was bloody shocked to see how well scrapper is doing vs this meta. So yes I do feel it's balance

    You confuse build diversity with balance. Scourge has two builds, both over performing, Mes (Mirage) has two, both op.
    What does number of builds have to do with profession balance?
    Again, do not confuse diversity with balance.

    ~ I Aear cân ven na mar

  • BeLZedaR.4790BeLZedaR.4790 Member ✭✭✭

    I think mirage and scourge suffer from the same issues really...
    but yeah that’s what it takes for a condi build to be meta now. Try playing condi rev, you just can’t rack enough damage before you die because things have too many cleanses for a build that has limited access to damaging conditions.
    Especially firebrand, can’t even scratch them even if they tank it all.
    Cleanses need to be lowered across the board along with the overkill amount of cover conditions on some of these builds.

    Unyielding Legend
    Make condi rev great again!
    Say no to braindead high reward builds

  • @Rufo.3716 said:
    Thief in general as it is right now is bad for the game. The crazy amount of stealth combined with all those stupid ports and movement are just plain dumb.

    condi thief doesnt even stealth that often ... plz if you could stay on topic . Thanks

  • Falan.1839Falan.1839 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2018

    Well explained, good video. Even though I'd severely disagree with the statement that mirage condi bombs come from Shatters mostly, just take a look at the axe and torch and how many torment/confu/burn they apply from minor skills. But that's not really the topic here.

    Falásya / Caissech

    "When you say it's gonna happen "now"
    When exactly do you mean?
    See I've already waited too long
    And all my hope is gone"
    The Smiths about Balance and PvP changes

  • Menzo.2185Menzo.2185 Member ✭✭✭

    No class is more OP than that.

  • Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

  • @Synstylae.2751 said:
    Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

    He clearly states in the video that mirage suffers from many of the same problems.

    ~ God Tier Guardian

  • zoopop.5630zoopop.5630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Synstylae.2751 said:
    Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

    no...... that build in general along with the entire condi mirage builds are aids/suck for this game. While were at it we can toss P/P deadeye still being aids for this game, anything that allows "spamming" of any sort is complete trash/brain dead builds that destroys the fundamental fun for matches in rank, It's kills the joy in playing solo que rank when builds like that can stomp on noobs so easily without really punishing the player at all for running a low skill build.

  • Synstylae.2751Synstylae.2751 Member ✭✭
    edited June 20, 2018

    @zoopop.5630 said:

    @Synstylae.2751 said:
    Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

    no...... that build in general along with the entire condi mirage builds are aids/suck for this game. While were at it we can toss P/P deadeye still being aids for this game, anything that allows "spamming" of any sort is complete trash/brain dead builds that destroys the fundamental fun for matches in rank, It's kills the joy in playing solo que rank when builds like that can stomp on noobs so easily without really punishing the player at all for running a low skill build.

    OP only mentions thief because he gets owned by them regardless of build. And of course there will be people spamming unload with P/P, there literally is nothing else that does damage in that setup, with pistol stealth attack being trash for power builds. And who knew people would start spamming skills with no cd, thats pretty much how thief works. You can literally count all thief builds into complete trash/brain dead builds, since every thief build allows ability spam. Thieves not getting punishes? Thats a complete lie, we get punished by everything, dodging at the wrong time, using stun breaks at the wrong time, attacking in the wrong time, even one mistake might get us killed. If you are good player, stomping noobs is always easy, regardless of profession or build and running P/P as a noob thief gets you stomped quickly.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2018

    The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

    The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

    Yes #2 thief port to attack is harder to avoid due to the instant nature of it but one more time , this does not show thief as having an overabundance of conditions added compared to other builds. It shows the strength of the #2 skill on a s/x thief which works just as well in power. The port 2 skill on thief can add 3 poison if spider venom traited. In a typical condition build this is around 600 per tick for that poison and at base lasts 4 seconds for 2400 damage. I get 6k off my shadowshot on power thief. and I do not have to wait 4 seconds for that damage to happen. 4k damage comes flying in off the AA of an LB ranger per shot.

    Ok the thief s/d SPAMS #2 adding poison at each attack. 3 times doing this and his INI gone. You took nine poison if you did not manage to dodge/evade or block any. If you want a list of ways to apply 9 damaging condition stacks via 3 attacks across all professions it going to be pretty high and if you want a list of what 3 seperate attacks can do damage wise via power, it will be longer yet.

    We had one person post an after damage report from PvP showing him having taken 70k sum total in damage from conditions before he died. He later posted one showing some 28k total of power damage before he died. Somehow he concluded that this damage breakdown report proved Conditions put out too much damage. It showed the opposite. It demonstrated that due to Cleanses and other mitigation measures when a facing a condition build you can absorb three times and more damage before you are downed. Now I do not PvP so I do not use that damage breakdown chart but if this looked at after every death and the numbers similar , this tells me lowering condition damage output of a given class CAN break that build. I would suggest people use this against all of the condition builds they face on a CONSISTENT basis. Don't change up your build or tactics and do fight to win. Then compare the condition damage breakdown between the classes. If the thief Condition damag build is killing you consistently with LESS overall condition damage then other condition builds , then you have a problem. If a Scourge/mirage plug in profession here is killing you with 50 ercent less total condition damage output through the fight then it THOSE builds that are burstier simply because they overwhelmed your defense faster.

  • @AngelLovesFredrik.6741 said:

    @Synstylae.2751 said:
    Here you have to know that OP posts frequently of reaper topics and videos of thieves being "unfair". I personally have very few problems when facing any type of necro with my thief, deadeye or condi. Instead of crying how thieves are "unfair", how about you start crying how your profession sucks. You just want to nerf thief profession in general, just because your profession has hard time with them. Somehow condi thief is "bad for the game", but condi mirages are just fine.

    He clearly states in the video that mirage suffers from many of the same problems.

    Yet somehow the video was about thieves, really makes you think :)

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 20, 2018

    @Crinn.7864 said:

    @babazhook.6805 said:
    The claim is made that the venom "unfair" because it can not be avoided. Do people know how a venom works? First you apply it and this gives a very clear tell. The fact a thief has a venom loaded shows on the thief that you face in his panel. This means his next 5 attacks will load poison as example if Spider used.

    In order to negate a venom you have to avoid all strike damage for the next 24 seconds. Completely avoiding all strike damage for 24 seconds is not practical.

    The Video shows the thief using dancing dagger with venom to apply torment cripple and poison. Dancing dagger is one of the easisest things to avoid. It can be blocked or dodged evaded or reflected. That venom being applied via a weapon skills is no different then having it INHERENT in a given weapon (see S/S warrior). Again on the s/s warrior on every attack chain AA i apply bleeds with every attack and cripples on every third attack in the chain. There no ICD and no INI to worry about. I can trait for added bleeds on crits via Arms. How is that somehow different? You can "avoid" the AA chain of a warrior but not a dancing dagger when it has a venom on it? Say what?

    The point isn't about dancing dagger, dancing dagger was just used as a example. The point is the build is using a number of procs that can be triggered off of strike damage, and completely avoiding all strike damage is not practical.

    Condi thief unlike every other class, cannot be juked or baited because procs only trigger and go on ICD when they are successful, and condi thief gets almost all of it's damage and debuffing power from procs.

    Fun fact: when an attack is blocked or evaded it decreases the venom count by 1. When an attack has multiple strikes in a short frame it decreases Venom by the number of strikes. (Note: striking an invuln player does not reduce venom counter).

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

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