Dear anet here is how to fix condi thief — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Dear anet here is how to fix condi thief

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  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Well its not just a fix to condi thief - he's pretty much arguing a fix to all condi on all classes. And it's the exact same argument for boons. Its the number of condis/boons that each class can output and the way they proc together with traits that's bad.

    Such a fix would require massive overhaul to the entire trait system though, which isnt gonna happen.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • TheDeafGuy.4519TheDeafGuy.4519 Member ✭✭
    edited June 21, 2018

    Let me break down this video:

    Argument number 1: "Condi mirage gets most of their condis from shatters", lol, entirely wrong, and they aren't really filler conditions from the weapon if its damaging conditions.

    Number 2: "They don't get their damage from most of their skills", this is also wrong. Like he said in the video, three of his weapons skills are dagger abilities which can apply poison, number two is an immobilize which triggers panic strike poison application, and dancing dagger can be deadly on a downed person with someone else rezzing and on combo field, if spammed.

    Number 3: "We have two on steal but thats not a condi bomb by itself", yes he is right, but what thief ever just "steals" besides to interrupt, steal is used to combine attacks like he said with infiltrators attack which is a condi bomb in itself when used together, or steal > impairing daggers with venoms. Also with the confusion rework, 6 stacks of confusion does hurt a lot, same with the poison stacks. They are one of the biggest condi bombing classes out there.

    Number 4: This one is one of my favorites, "Well it comes from this very convoluted system of trait procs" WARRIOR: Body Blow ** Stuns, dazes, knockbacks, pulls, pushes, and launches inflict bleeding and weakness. **Merciless Hammer Apply confusion on interrupt Sundering Burst burst skills apply vulnerability Bloodlust Chance to apply bleeding on critical hit Leg Specialist Immobilize a target when you cripple them Last Blaze When you use a REEEE skill set nearby opponents on fire No Escape Daze and stuns inflict immobilize Slow Counter Full counter applies cripple and slow Revenge Counter Copies conditions on full counter REVENANT: Expose Defenses Apply vulnerability on first hit in combat Rampant Vex Critical hits can cause torment Venom Enhancement When you inflict torment you also inflict poison Abyssal Chill When you inflict chill you also inflict torment Diabolic Inferno Applies burning to nearby foes when using elite Dwarven Battle Training Chance to apply weakness when hitting, So im going to stop here but I can honestly just go on and on and on with different traitlines each class can have, don't even get my started with Reaper or necromancers in general, HOWEVER they're mostly a condi class.

    Number 5: "You basically cannot get hit by a condi thief else they will start getting procs off", So he is right, condi thief does have a lot of filler conditions, but he is entirely wrong about it not having a burst to bait out and that you just need to always keep dodging. To a noob all those condis can look threatening but the only ones that really matter are the poison stacks in general and confusion stacks on steal. This S/D build is not even very strong on the poison application in comparison to other condi builds, but I'll get to that later. But this build does have a burst, its really simple honestly, Precast venoms (if you see this always be ready to dodge) > Infiltrators strike > Steal > Dodge, guess what boys thats it. But where does the damage come from? Well from the steal and infiltrators strike and whatever poison venom applications he got off. Notice I said whatever since these venom stacks do GET USED if the attacks are evaded. Now I'm gonna be reasonable and say not everyone is godlike and can predict the steal and infiltrator strike combo which is nearly impossible to predict, which I agree a lot with him, but if you put up a block or somehow cleansed the immob and dodge such as withdrawl on thief to avoid the dodge part of the burst, he will throw 3 daggers at you that will miss and use up the 3 stacks of his venom which significantly reduce the burst damage. Now lets say you get hit by all of this including all 6 stacks of venom application, its going to hurt, such as any condi bomb. So the actual problem were facing is an S/D Thief can almost instantly teleport to you from 2100 yard range and immobilize you so you can't dodge right away and apply all **6 stacks ** of venom then return to safety if needed. You're going to have to cleanse the poison off which is going to be hard with the filler condis, this is what makes condi thief unique. They are very heavy on 2 conditions only, with the others being fillers, if you don't cleanse the poison off of you and cleanse the fillers, you're in trouble. But lets take D/D for examaple, they can do a lot except they can't return to safety but they can apply way more poison and bleed if they take Deadly arts and not Acuuurbatics. So they're not considered OP since they don't have the safety return button and less mobility than S/D. Its only S/D condi thief that gets the heat, no other condi thief, unless the occasional bronze players on the forums who don't know how to time their cc on Acuuurbatic D/D thieves.

    Number 6 "How do you know what to dodge or when to dodge, especially when you have cleanses that have cooldowns and blocks that have cooldowns" Well, same with the Condi burst on condi S/D thief (I'm going to start calling it S/D condi thief from here on out because its literally the only condi thief that has ever been a meta pick, and I wonder why). Venom is a 30 seconds cooldown, steal is a 26 second cooldown, so they burst is about on average a 30 second cooldown, other than that, they're either smacking away with their sword so the fight doesn't reset, resetting the fight because they almost got killed themselves with infiltrators return, or a mixture of both with some harmless condition dodge spam, or harmless infiltrator strike spam that is hitting like a wet noodle or at least keeping his opponent in check. So save your biggest cleanses for the initial burst after he dodges and apply all his stacks or dodge or block the burst or at least the dodge portion.

    Number 7 So just watched this part of the video where he talked about the combo I just listed, but he said if he fails that combo he can set off all the procs he just set off, which is true but they're very short lasting procs that aren't really threatening.

    Number 8 Can't predict infiltrators strike is more of an S/D issue than condi issue, it just becomes an issue when tied to condi traitlines and how this build works.

    Number 9 He mentions my argument number 4 now in the video saying a lot of other classes don't have the convenience for this set up which is true in some cases but necromancer is actually convenient and so is mirage. It's just trickery is so overturned in comparison to other traitlines and acrobatics can be used on D/D condi thief, since this video is about condi thief and not only S/D condi thief.

    So I don't entirely agree with you're rework ideas. Removing cripple from dodge would make other condi thief specs very hard to stick to their target such as the prime example D/D, also its only 2 seconds...., I don't even think pressure striking is even that great and no one really even uses it, even S/D thief tbh. Also I'm a firm believer that condi classes should have access to a little more variety of condition applications so it makes it a little harder to cleanse, if we didn't have filler condis and the occasional extra damaging condition, that would make burst condi classes unviable or easy to beat if you can cleanse the damaging conditions whenever you wanted once they got too high. There is also no random procs on thief, just dagger training. Also weakening strikes is not really taken either besides for S/D condi, meta battle also says brawlers tenacity is the better option. So I'm actually happy you made this video because it does bring awareness to the condi aspect of thieves and I want anet to look more into it, which they have with the deadly arts change, dancing dagger torment application, etc. But i will say your argument as to why this build is meta is also wrong. This build is only powerful because of the S/D aspect of it. The reason why this build fell out of meta was because of the acrobatic changes making power S/D better but then came back to meta after S/D acrobatics was nerfed. Even then S/D power is very powerful and is used frequently. So my main argument here is that its not condi thief that's the main culprit here, but S/D number#2 specifically. It gives way too much for a weapon skill that can be spammed.

    TLDR
    Honestly anet just needs to do one things if they really want to stop S/D condi thief being used how its used, remove immob on the infiltrators strike, which will reduce damage from panic strikes, make the enemy be able to dodge after they get jumped on so they can dodge the lotus training and whatever applications of spider venom. Or reword sword 2 since its caused so many problems with balance of S/D, Sorry for any mistypes and not really trying to attack this guy, but I think hes really complaining mostly about S/D thief in general and not just condi thief, its never been meta until now with S/D.

  • @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Well its not just a fix to condi thief - he's pretty much arguing a fix to all condi on all classes. And it's the exact same argument for boons. Its the number of condis/boons that each class can output and the way they proc together with traits that's bad.

    Such a fix would require massive overhaul to the entire trait system though, which isnt gonna happen.

    How the game is now we need a massive overhaul, because it is not health how the game is now.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @TheDeafGuy.4519

    Good post and accurate analysis. The only addition I have is that many professions have ways to specifically cleanse immobilize/cripple/chill. If what is actually killing you is your inability to dodge then I highly recommend you focus on that aspect of your build.

    I’d also remind everyone that if you anticipate them porting in a strong cc can be an excellent greeting. Or a condi transfer. You can anticipate their moves if you are familiar with the weapon set.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I've just played several condi thiefs in a row... and I have to say, this is broken. The video above explains why.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The maker of that video already posted it to the forum actually.

    The Psychomancer: Mesmer Elite Specialization Suggestion

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:
    The maker of that video already posted it to the forum actually.

    still multi post is good

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