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Lots of discussion over lack of a new raid and I just wanted to chime in. I have a couple of points of view on this:

a.) I think we should be getting regular dungeons over raids for the most part. 10 man content is more niche than 5 man content and they're over-relying on FotM for the latter (another one of Colin's bad calls years ago that inappropriately persists as an unchallenged status quo). The game is really starved for full-sized, immersive world dungeons for 5 players without entry barriers. Think of how awesome a "cave of wonders" style dungeon hidden in the Crystal Desert somewhere with its own armor/weapon set would have been. Huge missed opportunity for PoF (just like not getting land spears.)

b.) BUT People do like raids, and there's room for them too, which brings me to my follow up point. I'm starting to think they focus too much on open world PvE and they need to divert more of those resources into instanced content in general. The problem with too much emphasis on open world PvE is that a.) it doesn't offer the same depth of strategy or coordination, and b.) competing metas will eventually spread the player base too thin. It already is a small problem and is very likely to grow into a bigger one over time. New zones should mostly be exploration focused, with map-wide metas being a minority of new zone content (IMO, it was a mistake to have every new map in HoT have large-scale meta events. PoF zones were done much better). Perhaps the primary focus of the LW should shift away from new zones with map-wide metas in favor if exploration areas combined with instanced content.

So, in short, I say we're at a point where some resources need to be diverted away from open world stuff and toward instanced content including Fractal mini-dungeons, full scale world dungeons, and the occasional raid.

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The delay of the next raid wing wouldn't even be so bad if instanced content as a whole (as you stated) wasn't lacking, well, content.

Unless the next new fractal comes with a challenge mode it will certainly be fun for a short while (or incredible annoying with too much unskippable drama and weird instability interactions) but then it is just another fractal, as well made as it may be, and will lack replayability given the normal fractal loottable. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the occasional open world Meta Event and do farm Istan or Silverwastes from time to time but I like meatier content, so to speak.Content that utilizes the rather unique combat system of Guild Wars 2. Content that forces me to utilize my classes skills and traits in conjunction with other classes skills and traits in order to beat it eventually. Content that has replay value outside of doing it once for an achievement or to brag about it.

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To address your first point, I think for discussions that involve dungeons vs fractals, it's important to define the distinctions that make 5 man instance content one vs the other. Once those characteristics are made clear, we can discuss whether or not they're healthy for the game. To dissect your statement "...full-sized, immersive world dungeons for 5 players without huge entry barriers.", what does any of that mean exactly?

Full-sized: What makes a dungeon full sized vs half sized that fractals are implied to be? The number of encounters? The instance size? The length of the narrative provided in the instance? The number of mobs?

Immersive World Dungeon: What, to you, makes a dungeon immersive? Connected to your personal story? Accessed in the open world vs a hub? Members of Dragon's Watch participating?

Huge Entry Barriers: T1 fractals have no barrier of entry. Even sub level 80s are able to participate since you get upscaled when you step into fractals. Is this a call to have t4 rewards available at t1 difficulty? or to have t1 difficulty, with t1 rewards only so no one feels left out? The gear and skill barrier at t4 isn't a mandatory experience if you just want to see the content.

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@"Shikaru.7618" said:To address your first point, I think for discussions that involve dungeons vs fractals, it's important to define the distinctions that make 5 man instance content one vs the other. Once those characteristics are made clear, we can discuss whether or not they're healthy for the game. To dissect your statement "...full-sized, immersive world dungeons for 5 players without huge entry barriers.", what does any of that mean exactly?

Full-sized: What makes a dungeon full sized vs half sized that fractals are implied to be? The number of encounters? The instance size? The length of the narrative provided in the instance? The number of mobs?

Immersive World Dungeon: What, to you, makes a dungeon immersive? Connected to your personal story? Accessed in the open world vs a hub? Members of Dragon's Watch participating?

Huge Entry Barriers: T1 fractals have no barrier of entry. Even sub level 80s are able to participate since you get upscaled when you step into fractals. Is this a call to have t4 rewards available at t1 difficulty? or to have t1 difficulty, with t1 rewards only so no one feels left out? The gear and skill barrier at t4 isn't a mandatory experience if you just want to see the content.

The difference to me for dungeons vs Fractals is a couple things:

Fractals are meant to be smaller quicker instances. I liked the layout of the Dungeon with a story mode to introduce and 3 explorable wings afterwards. Comparing a fractal to a dungeon, the dungeon has a lot more meat, in terms of area, content, dialogue etc.

Malyck’s story could be a dungeon in the HoT area and given that you could have 3 wings, could do it some justice regarding plot.

You could then have a dungeon for PoF with the same format and maybe do the area north of Vabbi with the Djinn, that hidden city that I forgot the name of.

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So, in short, I say we're at a point where some resources need to be diverted away from open world stuff and toward instanced content including Fractal mini-dungeons, full scale world dungeons, and the occasional raid.

ANet doesn't consider fractals to be meaningfully different from dungeons. We can keep on discussing this on the forums, but without a new and compelling reason (which hasn't been discussed by them), they are very unlikely to change their mind.

The PoF maps did have non-instanced mini dungeons similar to others we've seen in Vanilla Tyria. There are lots of adventures and a few puzzles. Judging by completion rates and lack of comments on the forums/reddit, those don't seem particularly popular.

In contrast, Raids seem very popular: they attract a strong plurality of players. And open world content seems generally the most popular at all.

So without access to actual numbers, I'd be very surprised if the OP were correct that the problem is the content priorities and I doubt very much if content ought to be re-allocated.

Instead, I think the bigger issue is the age old problem that plagues all MMOs: the community consumes content voraciously, far quicker than ANet (or any studio) can manage to deliver. GW2 Veterans are unlikely to ever be satisfied with the amount of things to do, the amount of new skins (or methods of acquisition), etc.

had hoped that moving from the ad hoc release plan of 2012-3 to the current "something big every 2-4 months, something noteworthy every month" would mean we'd see more than we used to. I had also hoped that ANet's current size would also mean more. Instead, I think we have "almost enough" that is (usually) of higher content and longer-term interest than what we had a launch.

In short, I'd say we're at a point where we just want more than ANet is delivering. Re-allocating priorities won't change that.

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@"Einlanzer.1627" said:Lots of discussion over lack of a new raid and I just wanted to chime in. I have a couple of points of view on this:

a.) I think we should be getting regular dungeons over raids for the most part. 10 man content is more niche than 5 man content and they're over-relying on FotM for the latter (another one of Colin's bad calls years ago that inappropriately persists as an unchallenged status quo). The game is really starved for full-sized, immersive world dungeons for 5 players without huge entry barriers. Think of how awesome a "cave of wonders" style dungeon hidden in the Crystal Desert somewhere with its own armor/weapon set would have been. Huge missed opportunity for PoF (just like not getting land spears.)

b.) BUT People do like raids, and there's room for them too, which brings me to my follow up point. I'm starting to think they focus too much on open world PvE and they need to divert more of those resources into instanced content in general. The problem with too much emphasis on open world PvE is that competing metas will eventually spread the player base too thin. It already is a small problem and is very likely to grow into a bigger one over time. New zones should mostly be exploration focused, with map-wide metas being a minority of new zone content (arguably a mistake in HoT). Perhaps the primary focus of the LW should shift away from new zones with map-wide metas in favor if exploration areas combined with instanced content.

So, in short, I say we're at a point where some resources need to be diverted away from open world stuff and toward instanced content including Fractal mini-dungeons, full scale world dungeons, and the occasional raid.

a) Dungeons are dead. We will not see any, ever. Because they're abandoned, replaced by newer, better instanced systems - FotM and raids.

b) Much as I'd like to see more focus on the instanced content, this isn't going to happen either. Instances are endgame. Lots of players will never get to the point where they're actively playing instances and are interested in new instanced content being released. Furthermore, those who do play instances, do it at different pace. My guild raid team just recently killed Dhuum for the first time. Meanwhile other players already got bored of W5 and I myself have Voice in the Void. However, that latter group of players who get bored is considerably smaller. It makes no sense to release instanced content at an increased pace just for them. Because that can be very demotivating for those who progress at a slower pace - they'll feel drowned in new challenges. I imagine a lot would give up, which isn't what you want, as a developer.

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Although I'm totally for more instanced content and almost only play raids & fractals (+ dungeon tours in the past) when it comes to GW2 the overall majority in this game is not playing any instanced content at all. Over the years I've been in several so called casual guilds and the fewest people in all of those were running dungeons. The standard answer from players when I was trying to run Arah with them was like: "Oh no, I'll never set a foot into it again. We spent xx hours in it and it wasn't fun."Even some more dedicated players I know who are already over 2-4k hours didn't and still don't like to run a short AC path or CoF p1. Heck, they also refuse to join for a leech at final bosses for some good gold because they were doing other funny stuff that appealed more to them.So, personally I think Anet is in the right direction with their development priorities at the moment. LS is disposable stuff, yes but people like it and I respect it. That's why I'm not disappointed that there won't be a new raid next week. I can wait (and I think the hardcore raiders too :p).What I mentioned above is also the reason why I'm predominantly against easy mode raids. People won't play them or just once and we have more disposable content hurting the actual development cycles.

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I agree with the people before me. We're not at the point where shifting priorities will help, since all the mentioned kinds of content (fractals, raids, open world/LS) take very (or too) long to get new content. Taking away from open world would be a particularly stupid idea, as that's still the biggest niche among the ones mentioned.

Concerning dungeons, stop beating that dead horse. It is dead, has been dead for years and won't be awakened by beating it. The old dungeons are a giant heap of spaghetti code and new dungeons would almost certainly require a crapton of entirely new tech. For the tiny group not covered by fractals and/or raids, that's not worth it.

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I wouldn't call fractal tiers a barrier of entry.. they are a system of progression and even so, they don't exclude you from the actual content. You're only missing out on increased loot and challenges.

New dungeons wouldn't be very popular on the long run unless the system around them was changed as well. That's why they moved to fractals. The system already in place guarantees that content will be played, either by putting them into the daily rotation or simply for the rewards. Fractals can follow any setting, they can explore so many more areas of the game & world/lore because they aren't bound by location. It's simply superior

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The problem with dungeons is rewards. New fractals have a set reward system that is already there, while adding new dungeons would require the creation of a brand new system. And if that system isn't good enough, for the challenge level, then we get to the Aetherpath situation.

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@"Vinceman.4572" said:Although I'm totally for more instanced content and almost only play raids & fractals (+ dungeon tours in the past) when it comes to GW2 the overall majority in this game is not playing any instanced content at all. Over the years I've been in several so called casual guilds and the fewest people in all of those were running dungeons. The standard answer from players when I was trying to run Arah with them was like: "Oh no, I'll never set a foot into it again. We spent xx hours in it and it wasn't fun."Even some more dedicated players I know who are already over 2-4k hours didn't and still don't like to run a short AC path or CoF p1. Heck, they also refuse to join for a leech at final bosses for some good gold because they were doing other funny stuff that appealed more to them.So, personally I think Anet is in the right direction with their development priorities at the moment. LS is disposable stuff, yes but people like it and I respect it. That's why I'm not disappointed that there won't be a new raid next week. I can wait (and I think the hardcore raiders too :p).What I mentioned above is also the reason why I'm predominantly against easy mode raids. People won't play them or just once and we have more disposable content hurting the actual development cycles.

Just because the majority is not playing instanced content is not an argument against having more (and better) instanced content, though. People tend to take the path of least resistance, but that doesn't mean the extreme focus on open world PvE is the healthiest long-term status quo for the game.

I'm not necessarily claiming to have all the answers, but I think things like "why are world dungeons dead" and "is it really in the game's best interest to keep so much focus on open world PvE long term" are good questions to ask.

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This is the Raid and Fractals (and dungeons but well) forums so everyone here is obviously going to chime in and defend the need for more instanced content, but do not be fooled: Open world PvE is the bread and butter of this game and the main entertainment/activity for the absolute majority of players. If LFG is not enough to attest to this, even GW2 efficiency indicates that the playerbase who do put their API up there (which are the ones who are prone to do instanced content as well), has in total done more open world collections/PvE per player than the number of raid items per player. Anet is doing it pretty much the correct way by releasing Raids and Fractals in a "when they're ready" basis while focusing their resources on the Living World team (that is doing a marvelous job by the way, and if open PvE is not for you I'd say perhaps you should consider GW2 a mere side-game or even choose other options).

Finally, taking longer inbetween releases is also a statement about how hard it is to not repeat the encounters. People complain enough as it is, imagine if they did it like WoW where bosses are released regularly that are just re-skins of the same mechanics that were on the previous 9001 encounters. No one jumped in when Hall of Chains was released to complain that Soulless Horror was unoriginal or that Dhuum did not have any ingenious mechanics and was just Matthias 2.0. If I had to choose between having regular raids released with less quality than the ones we do have, or keep up the same pace right now with the next Wing being as original as the ones before, I'd either wait it out or go play FFXIV.

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@"maxwelgm.4315" said:This is the Raid and Fractals (and dungeons but well) forums so everyone here is obviously going to chime in and defend the need for more instanced content, but do not be fooled: Open world PvE is the bread and butter of this game and the main entertainment/activity for the absolute majority of players.

Even without that, and I say this as someone who really enjoys instanced content, I'd rather ANet focus on large scale meta events, and making them more ... I guess, more like the stories attached to dungeons and the "global fractal story" than just a string of small fights. More plot, maybe even choices that branch the overall event, and more tougher bits that really want coordinated effort. (...or split people into instanced runs during them, and see the effects outside, or something. IDK, insert magic here.)

AB and VB metas are really good, and comparable to the instanced stuff in terms of enjoyment, for me. They provide the same sort of structured, long running event, and the repetition is no worse than fractals are. So, closed vs open world really is only the difference between "wait on LFG" or "do stuff on your own, other people will pop in", in some ways.

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@mindcircus.1506 said:

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:More plot, maybe even choices that branch the overall event, and more tougher bits that really want coordinated effort.

The problem with this is the player base.See the 2 threads per week whining about Serpent's Ire.All the player base wants is mindless farms.See Istan.

You need a reward worth the time investment to complete Serpent’s ire like an ama gemstone.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:More plot, maybe even choices that branch the overall event, and more tougher bits that really want coordinated effort.

The problem with this is the player base.See the 2 threads per week whining about Serpent's Ire.All the player base wants is mindless farms.See Istan.

You need a reward worth the time investment to complete Serpent’s ire like an ama gemstone.Indeed - compared to the HoT metas, which are a direct competition, Serpent's Ire's rewards are a bad joke. But rewards nonwithstanding, I can understand the weekly whine about that meta. The tuning of the second phase sucks and the third phase is boring and annoying as hell, as you can be sure that some brain will have pulled the hydra into the zerg.
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@Tyson.5160 said:You need a reward worth the time investment to complete Serpent’s ire like an ama gemstone.

It would have to be better than gemstones. Just given the time investment for SI compared to Gerent/Octo.Also, just giving them the same rewards wont make it more attractive, it would make it less attractive as gemstones just become commonplace. It needs better rewards yes, but what it needs is better unique rewards.

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:You need a reward worth the time investment to complete Serpent’s ire like an ama gemstone.

It would have to be better than gemstones. Just given the time investment for SI compared to Gerent/Octo.Also, just giving them the same rewards wont make it more attractive, it would make it less attractive as gemstones just become commonplace. It needs better rewards yes, but what it needs is better unique rewards.

What some are running into is that Path of Fire has no access to AMA gemstones, even though Legendaries can be made with PoF with the gift of desert mastery. Some people have PoFcwithout having HoT, which is fine.PoF needs a farm like HoT as well for AG. Gem stones should be added and perhaps another type of unique reward, AMA stones need to be there to craft the Legendaries.

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@Tyson.5160 said:What some are running into is that Path of Fire has no access to AMA gemstones, even though Legendaries can be made with PoF with the gift of desert mastery. Some people have PoFcwithout having HoT, which is fine.PoF needs a farm like HoT as well for AG. Gem stones should be added and perhaps another type of unique reward, AMA stones need to be there to craft the Legendaries.

I think what you're missing out on as is a large portion of people who think AG are worthy items, is that they are craftable meaning you don't actually need PoF to obtain them.

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:What some are running into is that Path of Fire has no access to AMA gemstones, even though Legendaries can be made with PoF with the gift of desert mastery. Some people have PoFcwithout having HoT, which is fine.PoF needs a farm like HoT as well for AG. Gem stones should be added and perhaps another type of unique reward, AMA stones need to be there to craft the Legendaries.

I think what you're missing out on as is a large portion of people who think AG are worthy items, is that they are craftable meaning you don't actually need PoF to obtain them.

Because they are... look at the people doing the metas...

Edit: Just because you don’t find them worthy doesn’t mean they aren’t.

Edit 2: Give em 2 amalgamated gemstones, done.

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@TexZero.7910 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:What some are running into is that Path of Fire has no access to AMA gemstones, even though Legendaries can be made with PoF with the gift of desert mastery. Some people have PoFcwithout having HoT, which is fine.PoF needs a farm like HoT as well for AG. Gem stones should be added and perhaps another type of unique reward, AMA stones need to be there to craft the Legendaries.

I think what you're missing out on as is a large portion of people who think AG are worthy items, is that they are craftable meaning you don't actually need PoF to obtain them.

Yea as Tz say you can just create em by the bucket in the mystic forge mate.

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@Linken.6345 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:What some are running into is that Path of Fire has no access to AMA gemstones, even though Legendaries can be made with PoF with the gift of desert mastery. Some people have PoFcwithout having HoT, which is fine.PoF needs a farm like HoT as well for AG. Gem stones should be added and perhaps another type of unique reward, AMA stones need to be there to craft the Legendaries.

I think what you're missing out on as is a large portion of people who think AG are worthy items, is that they are craftable meaning you don't actually need PoF to obtain them.

Yea as Tz say you can just create em by the bucket in the mystic forge mate.

Not cost effective

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@CptAurellian.9537 said:Indeed - compared to the HoT metas, which are a direct competition, Serpent's Ire's rewards are a bad joke. But rewards nonwithstanding, I can understand the weekly whine about that meta. The tuning of the second phase sucks and the third phase is boring and annoying as hell, as you can be sure that some brain will have pulled the hydra into the zerg.

Which is very sad. PoF meta-chains specially in Vabbi, are very interesting the immersion/dialogue/challenge, but rewards are discouraging, they are even behind Orr.

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@"Einlanzer.1627" said:

Just because the majority is not playing instanced content is not an argument against having more (and better) instanced content, though. People tend to take the path of least resistance, but that doesn't mean the extreme focus on open world PvE is the healthiest long-term status quo for the game.

I'm not necessarily claiming to have all the answers, but I think things like "why are world dungeons dead" and "is it really in the game's best interest to keep so much focus on open world PvE long term" are good questions to ask.It's always good to keep asking questions instead of taking everything on faith. So, i have one for you: why it's that the time with the best raid release schedule so far (but no LS/OW ones) is still considered to be the worst in GW2 career, and something they had to recover from? And why that recovering was done by the way of new LS season, not by more instanced content?

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Einlanzer.1627" said:

Just because the majority is not playing instanced content is not an argument against having more (and better) instanced content, though. People tend to take the path of least resistance, but that doesn't mean the extreme focus on open world PvE is the healthiest long-term status quo for the game.

I'm not necessarily claiming to have all the answers, but I think things like "why are world dungeons dead" and "is it really in the game's best interest to keep so much focus on open world PvE long term" are good questions to ask.It's always good to keep asking questions instead of taking everything on faith. So, i have one for you: why it's that the time with the best raid release schedule so far (but no LS/OW ones) is still considered to be the worst in GW2 career, and something they had to recover from? And why that recovering was done by the way of new LS season, not by more instanced content?

You'll have to give me more details, but I'd suspect it's because at the time there was more of a dearth of lucrative metas that were enjoyable to farm than there are now. I think balance is a good thing.

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