Thieves unite

I am putting up this thread for people who would like to have thief class changed. Here you can put down your ideas. Please be as speciffic as you can. Try to set exact parameters such as cd dps mechanic of what you are proposing to change. The main point of this thread would be to find out a few very specific things in Thief class that in oppinion of us common peasants should be changed. We need to unite on then so please try to find compromise. Also please do not salt each other down. Posts that are going to salt ppl down will be removed. Be structural and frank so we can understand what you mean.I will post changes i would like in next post. Thanks for joining. HF and lets try to figure this out

Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)Preassure striking - currently in Trickery should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)stealth has nothing to do with the type of damage used. especially p/d builds utilize stealth. but why do you want Mug in SA? if you want to stealthy steal you already got hidden thief there. you could change it with revealed training yet that would be a nerf to power DPS in PvE and might be too good synergy for pvp modes.Preassure striking - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)my pressure striking is in trickery not in deadly arts. i dont see how interrupting for torment has anything to do with critically hitting your opponent. critical strikes already has very little utility and ist mostly a stat boost, thats why it is rarely used in pvp modes because just more damage is often not enough.Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)why would you play critical strikes with sword dagger in pvp? sword dagger damage is way too low to profit from the damage boost you get from critical strikes. on the other hand why would you heal on crit with acro, that really doesnt make sense.Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

hidden killer grants crit chance wich is needed to utilize many things in critical strikes traitline, while it is not needed for anything else in the SA line and as said before stealth is neutral. SA is overall a defensive/utility traitline so rending shades fits in here perfectly usable by any type of stealthy build.

the current allocation of traits IMO is mostly good and changing that will either create broken synergies or will just destroy current synergies. IMO thief needs some traits changed or completly replaced but not switched in position.

if you want to improve SA for example, you may think of anything useful stealth related and replace shadow protector with it. like removing soft cc (weakness, blind, slow etc) on entering/leaving or while in stealth.there is also frequently people asking for SA to be more focused on entering / leaving stealth, wich either will be a nerf to current SA wich is already not meta in any mode or a massive buff to broken levels, pretty much impossible to get a good balance here.

the signet trait in CS while the cooldown reduction might be good the added passsive effects are just not very practical in most situations. i mean compare that to other classes signet traits they grant ontop of cooldown reduction:guardian : improved passive effect and sharded to allies for 10 seconds on activationwarrior: gain stacking ferocity buff with pretty long duration and activate your signet that grants unblockable buff when striking a low health opponentranger: AoE Fury on signet activation.ele: keep passive effects when skill is on cooldownmesmer: gain distortion (invuln) + condi cleansenekro: gain signet effects in shroud and recharge them faster in shroud.all alot better effects then our on kill stuff. if we got a trait similar to warriors for example as it is in critical strikes ferocity would make sense here as well and activate our power signet like warrior when opponent is below 50%, that would be then a really strong trait..better then the old one with might. but not many warriors run arms in pvp so thats probably why they are allowed to have such a trait yet with such a trait on thief..

then we got ankle shots you already mentioned, i probably would still choose practised tolerance over it in most pistol builds now, unless it was changed to old ricochet trait or something of that sort, but 2 raw damage traits while one is constant and the other with low uptime base on RNG is not really variety.

not sure if anyone is actually running sundering shade but my guess it can be replaced completely like shadow protector.

acrobatics could use improvements on guarded initiation and assassin's reward as they got pretty strong traits they compete with, not sure how to make them relevant but not OP atm.

for deadly arts one could merge deadly trapper and trappers respite (maybe remove the might/vuln part so it doesnt get too overloaded) and then we got a new slot there for something competing with panic strike /revealed training or with mug / dagger training.

trickery is in a pretty good spot and usefull for most builds so apart from AA spamming pve staff builds or m7 deadeyes, most use this and if it is just for the ini on steal + higher base ini. so the ini system might need adjustments to make this not as mandatory. i would like to know how thief play would change if ini was generated slower but for each weaponset individually (if they are different sets) so thief would then need to swap weapon during fight not just because of on swap effects, this would reduce spamm of weapon skills and might give anet options to actually buff our weapon skills.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)Preassure striking - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

Mug should stay where it is, Deadly arts is about DMG, Mug deals dmg but has no connection or synergy with Stealth, if there's something from DA that needs to be switched with Leeching Venom than its Revealed Training.

Pressure Striking is Trickery not Deadly Arts. I think it should stay where it is as well. Shooting someone in Ankle seems more like critical strike than trick shot to me =D

Rending Shade and Hidden Killer is a bit complicated, I think it might be better to create entirely new trait for CS and then move HK to Shadow Arts, as Rending Shade seems pretty logical for Shadow Arts, at least to me.

Swindlers Equilibrium should also stay where it is as it is based and procs on Evasion, so it makes sense to stay in Acro. Not to mention Invigorating Precision triggers on Critical hits, it too makes more sense for CS. Also, I am not sure what it has to do with Boon steal unless you mean it's connection to Boon Theft in Trickery, in this case, if you swapped it, Thieves would take DA/Cs/Trickery, and get all the dmg bonuses in Thief spec and that might quite easily become way too powerful.

Now it seems as if I just came to negate your post, but I only quite disagree.

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

It is okay if you disagree but if you want to disagree come please with idea how to do it better. Only disagreeing wont help.

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I was expecting you would show up. Okay i will start explaining. There is a lot1st In my oppinion problem with SA is that it is too defensive. If you have SA equiped you are getting nothing more than improved Stealth which is unnecesarry cuz you can play stealthy thief even without SA and you can get regeneration, ini and condi cleanse if you trait it right from it when you are in stealth.I will give example. If you would have Mug in SA your Steal would port you to enemy, stealth you, heal you, deal him dmg without reveling you, and also you still can backstab the enemy. This is ofcourse if you would trait it right which you still can beacuse Stealth is added to Steal by traits in SA Mug would grant heal and dmg with no reveal and since you are in stealth lets say you play D/P as you wanted you can backstab with even more dmg if you play DE and got full malice. (example because Shadow Meld)MY small question to what you said in first part = you say p/d builds utilize stealth. I agree Dagger 5 can cloak you for 3 sec if you hit right. Problem with this build is that your Autoattack may immediatelly reveal you if you dont break your focus on enemy also number three attack which applies tornment will range you only 600 from enemy which is enough even for Warrior Headbutt to reach you (very deadly) and i myself have tried to play p/d and i would not recomend it.

2nd I appologize i stated wrong trait line it just gets too messy in my notes. For the topic the point why i want to replace these two is the placement in the specific traitlines. If it were like this the Trickery t2 traits would be = Bountifull Theft, Trickster and Invigorating precision. The point of this is sutain of your life. If you are playing Trickery you rely on the extra ini you get from that so you can burst. Currently we have Zerk and Viper builds which are lets say best for either Power or Condi build. Both of them give A LOT of Precision. Which will let you sustain your life if you would have equiped your Trickery still letting you to have extra ini and not forcing you to equip Crit Strikes so you can get this trait.On the other hand you can have Critical Stirkes with t3 traits = No quarter, (with my change it would be Rending Shade) Hidden killer and Presure StrikingI would have this change because of Crit Stikes, Acrobatics, Daredevil s/p or staff or d/p build This way you will have plenty of stun breaks and evades and also you will be able to interrupt enemies causeing both tronment and pulmonary impact on them. (traits in DD)

3rd this would be clearly done to incraese efficiency of sword+something builds that would paly Crit strikes because Twin fangs would increase your dmg and sword skill two would let you remain shadowstepping in and out stabbing and rushing out and again till you would stab your foe to death with Trickery (after the change) you would even heal yourself doing so

4th again i want to swap these to add more attackiness to Stealth so it isnt just a oh boy look i am hidden try to find me. This trait would reward every attack you would do from stealth imagine this with Revealed training and Executioner from DA every hit from stealth 100% crit + revealed 3 sec (attacking more) target less than 50% health executioner lets say we play with DD adding Havoc Mastery to this Power zerk build with signet of Power activated when you about to burst

i agree that mergin the trap traits in DA would be really beneficial and i like the idea of improving Signet activation mechanic i could work with that. I am trying myself to use signets as much as possible because they give good benefits.As you mentioned Acrobatics i see this traitline more like our only Stun breaking traitline so if i would want to improve it i would try to make it regen ini with some of the traits i cant specify which yet i havent looked into it but i can give it a try and post something later.And yes i would be happy if they would buff our weapons skills but from my experience that can either end really good or horribly bad.thanks for sharing ur oppinion

well before any buffs for thieves i want to see a-net bring the overall balance in line.i read from time to time comments about how a-net wants to emphasize on a 5v5 balance but then they are allowing single builds to buff themselves until they reach the might stack cap for example or builds that alone stack up ridiculous amounts of conditions on enemies.

then you have stealth where they bring later reveal debuff skills into the game and with deadeye now an anti reveal debuff.it is obvious that they dont even know where they want to go with their back and forth balance decisions.

i mean i had great times on d/p thief and so but at this point just get stealth out of the game, give thieves a little damage buff on whatever cooldown when using dagger and hitting an enemy from behind/the side and similar buffs for all other weapons.as compensation for the defensive/positioning loss of a stealthless thief give them some more port in and out skills with a small range like 300 or 450.just some more skills like shadow shot, shadow strike or mesmers jaunt. and then after almost 6 years we can finally leave behind those neverending stealth discussions.

another thing what bugs me is the whole condition system in this game.i wished (at least for the damage applying ones) they reduced drastically the durations and let them crit again so that someone who wants to run a full condi build there will 3 stats be needed for maximum effectiveness.

dont even want to start on passive invulns and suchlike stuff.

as said in the beginning, there is much work for a-net to do before i start thinking too much about what specifically thief could need.also thief wouldnt be that bad at all when "everything" gets toned down a bit.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I am putting up this thread for people who would like to have thief class changed. Here you can put down your ideas. Please be as speciffic as you can. Try to set exact parameters such as cd dps mechanic of what you are proposing to change. The main point of this thread would be to find out a few very specific things in Thief class that in oppinion of us common peasants should be changed. We need to unite on then so please try to find compromise.

Condi thief should be nerfed hard. It's not exactly difficult to fight back against condi thief, I've killed many condi thieves as a core s/d power thief. The problem with the condi thief is that it's more of an annoyance than anything else. The venom utility skills are the main cause of condi thief being an annoyance because these skills proc certain traits such as Lotus Poison when you apply poison, Panic Strike when you immobilize a foe etc.

Deadeye shouldn't be able to be permanently invisible only to then burst you while sitting on objects that thieves can't use Infiltrator's Strike or Steal in order to catch up on the Deadeye. A good example of this are the plants at the middle capture point in the Revenge of the Capricorn map. A rifle Deadeye can kneel on top of those plants and a core or Daredevil thief can't Steal on to them. Especially when you consider that there is no cover at the middle capture point and the plants are invalid paths for teleportation, core and Daredevil thieves can't to anything about it.

P/p thieves are the thieves that nobody likes. They lack the utility that core s/d and Daredevil d/p have. Not only is is a bad weapon set, but it's a very boring weapon set that requires you to spam one and only one skill which is Unload. I recommend the initiative cost on Unload to be increased from 5 to 10, but also increase the initiative when you hit all of your shots from 2 to 5. Regardless if you consider this harsh or not, it doesn't change the fact that p/p requires no skill to play, but most importantly it has no risk to consider when playing it. A thief playing p/p needs to realize that if they miss even one shot via blind, dodge, block or LoS, they're pretty much done for because they've just wasted their initiative for nothing and can't do anything to fight back aside from using Steal or the pistol auto attack.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

I dont know if these changes would improve anything it just feels like you disagree and again i will say please bring exact changes you would make not things like nerf this and that please be specific with why and what to change and how to make theif better not how to nerf the very few last things we still have thank you

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I was expecting you would show up. Okay i will start explaining. There is a lot1st In my oppinion problem with SA is that it is too defensive. If you have SA equiped you are getting nothing more than improved Stealth which is unnecesarry cuz you can play stealthy thief even without SA and you can get regeneration, ini and condi cleanse if you trait it right from it when you are in stealth.I will give example. If you would have Mug in SA your Steal would port you to enemy, stealth you, heal you, deal him dmg without reveling you, and also you still can backstab the enemy. This is ofcourse if you would trait it right which you still can beacuse Stealth is added to Steal by traits in SA Mug would grant heal and dmg with no reveal and since you are in stealth lets say you play D/P as you wanted you can backstab with even more dmg if you play DE and got full malice. (example because Shadow Meld)you suggested mug change place with leeching venoms so you cannot take mug and hidden thief wich you currently can. backstab animation is so long that you often with normal steal precast it and steal into it so doesnt matter if you get revealed from it but you still need stealth before it not after it. stealth on steal is good for deadeye builds tho because you do not use it as a teleport or interrupt as it is not instant. with d/p DE you also wont backstab right away after using your mark and build up malice before so the mug is not really part of your burst, just a little extra damage that you do not need.MY small question to what you said in first part = you say p/d builds utilize stealth. I agree Dagger 5 can cloak you for 3 sec if you hit right. Problem with this build is that your Autoattack may immediatelly reveal you if you dont break your focus on enemy also number three attack which applies tornment will range you only 600 from enemy which is enough even for Warrior Headbutt to reach you (very deadly) and i myself have tried to play p/d and i would not recomend it.

2nd I appologize i stated wrong trait line it just gets too messy in my notes. For the topic the point why i want to replace these two is the placement in the specific traitlines. If it were like this the Trickery t2 traits would be = Bountifull Theft, Trickster and Invigorating precision. The point of this is sutain of your life. If you are playing Trickery you rely on the extra ini you get from that so you can burst. Currently we have Zerk and Viper builds which are lets say best for either Power or Condi build. Both of them give A LOT of Precision. Which will let you sustain your life if you would have equiped your Trickery still letting you to have extra ini and not forcing you to equip Crit Strikes so you can get this trait.On the other hand you can have Critical Stirkes with t3 traits = No quarter, (with my change it would be Rending Shade) Hidden killer and Presure StrikingI would have this change because of Crit Stikes, Acrobatics, Daredevil s/p or staff or d/p build This way you will have plenty of stun breaks and evades and also you will be able to interrupt enemies causeing both tronment and pulmonary impact on them. (traits in DD)

3rd this would be clearly done to incraese efficiency of sword+something builds that would paly Crit strikes because Twin fangs would increase your dmg and sword skill two would let you remain shadowstepping in and out stabbing and rushing out and again till you would stab your foe to death with Trickery (after the change) you would even heal yourself doing so

4th again i want to swap these to add more attackiness to Stealth so it isnt just a oh boy look i am hidden try to find me. This trait would reward every attack you would do from stealth imagine this with Revealed training and Executioner from DA every hit from stealth 100% crit + revealed 3 sec (attacking more) target less than 50% health executioner lets say we play with DD adding Havoc Mastery to this Power zerk build with signet of Power activated when you about to burst

i feel like you looked at all the traits and tried to make builds with picking traits from everywhere. so basically you envision a build and try to change the traitlines to fit to that. instead of desining the traitlines to have an identity and synergize well with each other so multiple builds can be done with them and not just the one you envisioned.for example thief has a ton of skills affecting steal/mark now you could say put them all in one line so you are not forced to pick a certain line if you just want to have those couple of skills for steal but then you might no longer be able to pick as many traits together affecting steal, destroying synergy between those lines. you have traits affecting stealth outside SA like revealed training or hidden killer so it is easier to find a synergy between SA and them. or traits granting vigor/endurance/on evade effects outside of acro to synergize with them.SA and Critical strikes both have too few utility or traits that would synergize well with other lines, thats why they are not used as much. well CS is used for raw damage increase in PvE but thats not really a synergy. SA has further issues while the sustain is insane the nature of stealth it is tied to limits its uses, because you will only have the sustain while in stealth therefor also not attacking your opponent and not attacking your opponent is rarely a way to achieve anything in this game. SA to synergize well with other traitlines as a defensive traitline (thats why i dont want hidden killer here) would probably need its effects to last after stealth but that could easily make it OP. CS while it provides really good damage it doesnt provide means to apply the damage like DA with immob from panic strike or the defense you gain from poison=> weakness or trickery with boonrip + daze ontop of the damage modifier, that makes those lines often better.but overall i dont think swapping those traits will help CS/SA, changing traits in those lines to make them more relevant is what we need. and as said before trickery is because of ini a too important line for many parts of the game and IMO ini system need to change a little to make trickery not as mandatory.

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I am putting up this thread for people who would like to have thief class changed. Here you can put down your ideas. Please be as speciffic as you can. Try to set exact parameters such as cd dps mechanic of what you are proposing to change. The main point of this thread would be to find out a few very specific things in Thief class that in oppinion of us common peasants should be changed. We need to unite on then so please try to find compromise.

I am so grateful you not in charge of balance in any way shape or form. You do not remove traits or utilities because they annoy you. .. You do not change a build just because it allows a trait to proc when a weapon used. One of the main reasons we even have traits that are separate from the weapon skills is to make a given weapon more effective. Applying this logic of removing traits that allow added procs across all classes and the vast majority would need to be removed.

It seems to me that if you do not like things that annoy you or you do not like traits that allow added damage/utility and procs on a weapon, you are playing the wrong game.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

@Alatar.7364 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:

I did say what's better right in the first part of the post.Also disagreeing doesn't mean there is a way to do something better, better in this case is to not do it nor actually change it in any way, as someone too suggested in a post above.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)Preassure striking - currently in Trickery should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

Lolwat?

This list makes absolutely no sense. You overload SA, nerf DA out of its power options, nerf CS to being literally a waste of space, remove Acro having synergy with nearly anything, make S/D relatively pointless and attempt to force it into one specific set of trait options, and hurt virtually every edge-case build out there except D/P SA.

No thanks.

Want to fix thief?

• Dual wield skills should be 2-4 instead of just 3, and then rebalance the weapon combinations to provide each kit enough independent utility while preserving its identity.
• Rework SA to provide defensive and utility bonuses to active gameplay and weaving in and out of stealth rather than just camping invisible. Keeps DA/CS offense, SA/Acro defense, and Tr utility which is a good balance of choices catering to many styles of play and weapon kits. Solves all the disparities and makes trait options much more open for different kits.
• Rework Signets again because the traits in CS are terrible for anything but open-world. Short-timered on-kill effects is stupid because signets lacks utility and thief as a whole require constant re-engage. Yield 3% bonus damage per signet activation for 5s and keep the passive effects upon activation. Remove the CDR component of the trait and drop ISignet's cooldown to 20s since it's so much worse than Shadowstep and favors a commitment-heavy playstyle as signets do.
• Make Unrelenting Strikes just have its ICD instead of a health threshold component. Makes the trait better for use as a whole by making it apply at the start of the fight and continue throughout, but doesn't affect uptime and keeps NQ valuable.
• Rework traps to be ranged throwables using the siege throw animation. Put them (aside from shadow trap) on the ammo system to cater better to the trapper concept. Drop Shadow Trap's cooldown to 30s.
• Drop SR's cooldown to 30s, reduce its pulses to 2, and have it remove the revealed debuff but continue self-inflicted reveal upon exiting. Develops new synergy with active-play adjustments to SR, allows enemy-inflicted Reveal to have counterplay for stealth-oriented builds, and still rewards smart CC/bomb play by an enemy.

@Jack Redline.5379

If you want a tutorial on P/D I will happily provide one...

=D

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I am putting up this thread for people who would like to have thief class changed. Here you can put down your ideas. Please be as speciffic as you can. Try to set exact parameters such as cd dps mechanic of what you are proposing to change. The main point of this thread would be to find out a few very specific things in Thief class that in oppinion of us common peasants should be changed. We need to unite on then so please try to find compromise.

p/p unload spam is only situationally effective, particularly on squishies/baddies or in +1's where rifle, dagger, and even sword burst power builds are just as effective. If you want to truly duel with p/p you better know how to use 2,4, and 5 around 3 or you're toast.

@Tinnel.4369 said:

@Hoodie.1045 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:I am putting up this thread for people who would like to have thief class changed. Here you can put down your ideas. Please be as speciffic as you can. Try to set exact parameters such as cd dps mechanic of what you are proposing to change. The main point of this thread would be to find out a few very specific things in Thief class that in oppinion of us common peasants should be changed. We need to unite on then so please try to find compromise.

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)Preassure striking - currently in Trickery should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

• Dual wield skills should be 2-4 instead of just 3, and then rebalance the weapon combinations to provide each kit enough independent utility while preserving its identity.
• Rework SA to provide defensive and utility bonuses to active gameplay and weaving in and out of stealth rather than just camping invisible. Keeps DA/CS offense, SA/Acro defense, and Tr utility which is a good balance of choices catering to many styles of play and weapon kits. Solves all the disparities and makes trait options much more open for different kits.
• Rework Signets again because the traits in CS are terrible for anything but open-world. Short-timered on-kill effects is stupid because signets lacks utility and thief as a whole require constant re-engage. Yield 3% bonus damage per signet activation for 5s and keep the passive effects upon activation. Remove the CDR component of the trait and drop ISignet's cooldown to 20s since it's so much worse than Shadowstep and favors a commitment-heavy playstyle as signets do.
• Make Unrelenting Strikes just have its ICD instead of a health threshold component. Makes the trait better for use as a whole by making it apply at the start of the fight and continue throughout, but doesn't affect uptime and keeps NQ valuable.
• Rework traps to be ranged throwables using the siege throw animation. Put them (aside from shadow trap) on the ammo system to cater better to the trapper concept. Drop Shadow Trap's cooldown to 30s.
• Drop SR's cooldown to 30s, reduce its pulses to 2, and have it remove the revealed debuff but continue self-inflicted reveal upon exiting. Develops new synergy with active-play adjustments to SR, allows enemy-inflicted Reveal to have counterplay for stealth-oriented builds, and still rewards smart CC/bomb play by an enemy.

The reason why dual wielding only effects the third weapon is because each weapon only has three skills in each hand.

This would imply an additional skill needs to be made for off hand and main hand.

Keeping it to be just 3 is fine. But improving thieves toolkit overall and bringing him back to the intended design should be the main goal. Which is an agile, slippery bastard that weasels around defences and murders you.

My main concern is core thief. Not the Elites as those are all influenced by core.

Support wise. Thief is a little unusual compared to everyone else. He doesn't support in a way that makes him effective in PvE, as he does not provide buffs... But short lived bursts of damage and healing (skelk venom). In PvP, this is powerful... But because you're not as effective at your best compared to a mediocre player... You're playing a game of cat and mouse. And you are the mouse.

The one utility which heals players is nearly worthless. Shadow Refuge. The skill stupidly marks the location even when there's no penalty for someone to stand in it. It just means they need to spam that area with AOEs. So you can't hide your team for an ambush with it. You can't use it to hide when you are fleeing. Even if you give regen from SA it gets dwarfed by other classes support functions. Can't leave the circle or you lose stealth. Attack and you lose stealth. Only effects 5 players. The healing it provides is the third best in all utils. But the surrounding problems make it a shit option.

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)

This shows your lack of understanding on how the Thief combat mechanic works.

First of all, I do agree that Leeching Venom doesn't belong in Shadow Arts, I have made the same statement a long time ago. I proposed that Leeching Venom should be the baseline for Venom. Just as they made Venom Aura baseline, they should also make Leeching Venom baseline.

However, I disagree that Mug should be taken out of Deadly Arts - this is where you're lacking understanding which leads to my second point.

Deadly Arts is simply the main damage trait line, meaning you can take it whether you are dealing physical or condition damage. This is why both Potent Poison and Executioner is in this trait line. The only problem I have with Mug is the healing aspect of it added as a compensation for preventing Mug from crit-ing, it is simply out of flavor for Deadly Arts. I have mentioned here before that I, my personal opinion, think that Mug should knock the target down instead.

Third, condition and stealth is not nonsense. Stealth is very much a condition build just as much as it is for power build. With Shadow Arts, I can go toe-to-toe with another condition build. Condition build uses stealth as a defensive mechanism, just as it is designed to do. Power build, on the other hand, is the build that doesn't really need Shadow Arts. So your reasoning for changes is flawed due to your lack of understanding of the Thief profession. Simply put, my Trapper Condi Thief disagrees with you.

Preassure striking - currently in Trickery should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)

Ankle Shots is basically aiming at a pressure point on the ankle which is a critical strike. Pressure Striking is not a pressure point striking. If it is, it would it apply Torment -- meaning it is not the kind of pressure you are thinking. It is best that you look at the functionality instead of the name.

Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)

I disagree. Swindler Equilibrium is more for S/P than it is for S/D only because the only way for S/P to steal boon is by using Steal (Bountiful Theft) - S/D can already do that without relying on Steal. Also only S/P can really take advantage of the +10% damage boost when using Pistol Whip.

Besides, Invigorating Precision is right where it belongs. The only improvement that SE need is reducing the cooldown to be inline with Steal. 30s is just too long.

Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

Absolutely not. Hidden Killer is perfect where it is. Just because it functions with stealth it doesn't mean it belongs to Shadow Arts. Your suggestion will ruin a lot of crit builds and your reasoning for making this switch is a complete nonsense.

Although I was never a fan of Rending Shade until the Deadeye 2.0. Having an unblockable stealth attack (DJ) makes Rending Shade shines. However, I think it belongs in Trickery (where all boon strips are) replacing the horrible and useless Quick Pockets. Just like my reasoning withe Hidden Killer, just because it functions with stealth, it doesn't necessarily mean it belongs in Shadow Arts.

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

There are many things that the Thief profession needs, but your suggestions are not them.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Deadly Arts is simply the main damage trait line, meaning you can take it whether you are dealing physical or condition damage. This is why both Potent Poison and Executioner is in this trait line. The only problem I have with Mug is the healing aspect of it added as a compensation for preventing Mug from crit-ing, it is simply out of flavor for Deadly Arts. I have mentioned here before that I, my personal opinion, think that Mug should knock the target down instead.one question here if you run Mug and SoH , will the target then be dazed or knockdowned? because hard cc allways overwrites hard cc. and how long should this knock down be?

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Deadly Arts is simply the main damage trait line, meaning you can take it whether you are dealing physical or condition damage. This is why both Potent Poison and Executioner is in this trait line. The only problem I have with Mug is the healing aspect of it added as a compensation for preventing Mug from crit-ing, it is simply out of flavor for Deadly Arts. I have mentioned here before that

I, my personal opinion, think that Mug should knock the target down instead.

one question here if you run Mug and SoH , will the target then be dazed or knockdowned? because hard cc allways overwrites hard cc. and how long should this knock down be?

Both. Dazed and Knocked down. The KD duration can be balanced later on but 2s would be a good starting point.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@Jack Redline.5379 said:Mug - currently in deadly arts should be switched with Leeching venos - currently in Shadow Arts (a clear nonsense. If you go stealth you are in power build not condi)Preassure striking - currently in Trickery should be switched with Ankle shots - currently in Critical Strikes (it is a trick = not clear game to shoot someone in leg and then finish them off just thinking)Swindler's Equllibrium - currently in Acrobatics should be switched with Invigorating precision - currently in Critical Strikes (because of if you play critical stirkes with usually power build in PVP you would play with something that steals boons = sword/dagger)Rending Shade - currently in Shadow Arts should be switched with Hiddne kiler - currently in Critical strikes (this would really give a meaning to power stealth thief build)

it really is only a few changes but i believe this could make great change in both dps and survivablity of thieves AND ESPECIALLY we could play new builds and have a good results anyway. Anything you can play in raids/fracs is d/d or staff or you will not get kicked (tried out)thx for view

• Dual wield skills should be 2-4 instead of just 3, and then rebalance the weapon combinations to provide each kit enough independent utility while preserving its identity.
• Rework SA to provide defensive and utility bonuses to active gameplay and weaving in and out of stealth rather than just camping invisible. Keeps DA/CS offense, SA/Acro defense, and Tr utility which is a good balance of choices catering to many styles of play and weapon kits. Solves all the disparities and makes trait options much more open for different kits.
• Rework Signets again because the traits in CS are terrible for anything but open-world. Short-timered on-kill effects is stupid because signets lacks utility and thief as a whole require constant re-engage. Yield 3% bonus damage per signet activation for 5s and keep the passive effects upon activation. Remove the CDR component of the trait and drop ISignet's cooldown to 20s since it's so much worse than Shadowstep and favors a commitment-heavy playstyle as signets do.
• Make Unrelenting Strikes just have its ICD instead of a health threshold component. Makes the trait better for use as a whole by making it apply at the start of the fight and continue throughout, but doesn't affect uptime and keeps NQ valuable.
• Rework traps to be ranged throwables using the siege throw animation. Put them (aside from shadow trap) on the ammo system to cater better to the trapper concept. Drop Shadow Trap's cooldown to 30s.
• Drop SR's cooldown to 30s, reduce its pulses to 2, and have it remove the revealed debuff but continue self-inflicted reveal upon exiting. Develops new synergy with active-play adjustments to SR, allows enemy-inflicted Reveal to have counterplay for stealth-oriented builds, and still rewards smart CC/bomb play by an enemy.

MH/OH doesn't need additional skills to do what I proposed; the way it already works is just a skill replacement when dual wielding occurs as it is. It's not possible to play with only one weapon, anyways, so it's not like it's a relevant factor. It just allows better granularity for balancing every individual kit while keeping some of the fundamentals the same.

The skills as they are are not fine. The biggest thing holding back buffs and tweaks to the weak kits is the existing cohesion of the better ones.

SR can't not have counterplay. But it's too easy to do so at the moment due to its duration. With the cut duration and lowered cooldown, it could act somewhat like an extended BP, just not instant, while also preserving offensive capabilities by allowing a thief to attack and enter stealth more than once from within the radius, forcing most players to move away or face large amounts of damage.

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@MUDse.7623 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:Deadly Arts is simply the main damage trait line, meaning you can take it whether you are dealing physical or condition damage. This is why both Potent Poison and Executioner is in this trait line. The only problem I have with Mug is the healing aspect of it added as a compensation for preventing Mug from crit-ing, it is simply out of flavor for Deadly Arts. I have mentioned here before that

I, my personal opinion, think that Mug should knock the target down instead.

one question here if you run Mug and SoH , will the target then be dazed or knockdowned? because hard cc allways overwrites hard cc. and how long should this knock down be?

yeah but that is not how CC works in gw2. you can only be affected by one hard CC at a time. if the knockdown is applied first then it will be replaced by 1 second daze instantly. or they wont be dazed just knocked. never both.

actually that way of CC overwrite is really an issue in some cases. for examply you want to play s/p DE. and you knockdown your opponent for 3 seconds with binding shadows you can in that time at least use 3 if not more pistolwhips with quickness BUT you cant because you break your opponents knockdown with a shorter CC.

like it is for CC, its the same with reveal in WvW if you run into a an anti stealth trap and a soulbeast wants to burst you down, he better detarget you for his sic em buff or he will shorten your reveal time.

we need short CC not to overwrite longer CC.

I've been a touch quiet recently and that is because I've been taking Deadeye for more of a whirl in raids to see what can be done with things as they currently are. I'll probably make a more detailed thread discussing how it is possible to get Deadeye performing reasonably relative to other professions (in terms of DPS) but my work is very busy at the moment so that will likely need to wait. As a heads up, this post is from an instanced PvE perspective - primarily raids. Any changes I suggest should of course be considered as skill splits first and I'm going to request that the PvE focus of my post continues in any responses to what is suggested.

In short, Deadeye can pull some respectable DPS that puts it in the upper echelons of rankings if it is played correctly though this continues to sacrifice much utility and does not afford Deadeye a niche. A small change to the scaling of Malicious Backstab, from 10% per Malice to 15%, would allow for Deadeye to shine as a low cleave, low utility, high single target (boss) damage spec.

Golem benchmarks for Deadeye are poor but in actual raids, immunity phases allow the stacking of Malice and the alignment of Assassin's Signet with 5 Malice Malicious Backstabs, Shadow Flare, remarking and then a final 3 Malice Malicious Backstab affords good DPS with a non-linear and relatively high-pressure rotation.

This results in situations such as;

• 24.5k Vale Guardian DPS
• 21.4k Samarog DPS
• 31k Keep Construct DPS
• 22.2k Slothasor DPS
• 29k Sabetha DPS

I've been able to reach similar heights (relative to other professions) on other bosses where Power is preferred but I think the above is enough to illustrate my point (and someone uploaded months of Dhuum / Dhuum CM wipes that I took part in so sifting through my logs is a pain). None of these logs were chased, no group compositions altered to benefit me and I did not run a full DPS build - Basilisk Venom was used in all circumstances. This damage could also be easily improved upon by a player better than myself that isn't fighting disabled hands which caused a few poorly timed Assassin's Signets into "front" stabs and similar issues.

The numbers obtained are fine (excluding our lack of utility), but they are certainly not by design due to needing to use immune / distant from boss / cleave scenarios to build additional Malice with Dancing Dagger and we still ignore all synergistic traits in Deadeye. Only passive buffs are taken.

However, the biggest underlying issue with Deadeye can be seen in the Xera rankings and in this Xera log (where I was ported once sub-50% - due to low number of logs this skews the possible single target on Xera downwards slightly since I've yet to have a run without being ported).

Despite hitting decent numbers for single target, the cleave that Deadeye offers on an encounter like this is non-existent. Despite this, there are professions that can deal more single target and more cleave damage.

Deadeye ranks third for single target damage but has massively lower cleave.

This creates a very easy "fix" for Deadeye to give it a decent identity in PvE with respect to DPS. So @Robert Gee.9246 if you are still looking for feedback; Deadeye should be top single target power DPS - it should not be Weaver or Spellbreaker or other professions that can cleave and AoE and support far better. While Rifle requires a vast amount more work to be viable in instanced PvE again, Dagger/Dagger needs only one change and this could be split to be PvE only -

• Increase the scaling on Malicious Backstab from 10% per Malice to 15% per Malice

This change alone would be sufficient to allow for Deadeye to compete for highest single target damage, so long as the player is able to manage cooldowns, flanking, Initiative and Malice.

The lack of Deadeye support in PvE could also be improved by a second change, in addition to the improvement to Malicious Backstab

• Change Fire for Effect from 8 Might for 12 seconds to 10 Might for 18 seconds

These are very minor changes, are only numerical alterations and could be split from PvP and WvW yet would allow for Deadeye to find a niche as high single target damage with low cleave and low utility while offering an off-meta Might share choice.

So, while I've been complaining as much as the rest of you, I'm not sure VERY specific suggestions are super useful here. Its probably MOST useful if we describe the problems we are experiencing, what we'd LIKE to see the thief do from a general perspective, then let the devs take it from there. I'm ALSO very tempted to give specific suggestions on different skills, cooldowns and damage coefficients, but we're a decent sized group and the more "very specific" suggestions we give, the more likely we are to provide contradicting solutions that aren't useful. Also, Its easy to forget that the Devs ALSO like this game and I doubt that they've ever made anything with malice specifically toward the Thief class, they're just trying to create a good experience for everyone.

@Gatvin.6510 said:they're just trying to create a good experience for everyoneGiven some of the changes that's at least questionable.