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Proposal for new Deadeye's mechanism


Rexts.8037

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The current situation of Deadeye in PVE is very poor because of the dependence on stealth when it is useless in most of circumstances of PVE, and the immobility of rifle skills are severely against the mobility of other weapons provided to player, that make it hard to prosper in high end PVE contents.

To balance the mobility which thief must rely on, two different mechanisms of Deadeye’s Malice system should be promoted. But one change is not enough to solve the problem, I have to introduce a new mechanism as Concentration, a temporary replacement of endurance for Deadeye to exchange mobility for higher damage. Below is what I suggest:

MaliceX5DJwU0.jpgConcentration4YjhFH6.jpgRifle skillsgZVeNw7.jpgSlot skillsHNZyqLK.jpgTraits1FIcIf1.jpg

Comment is welcome :)

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The current situation of Deadeye in PVE is very poor because of the dependence on stealth when it is useless in most of circumstances of PVE

You lost me just there...Stealth have always been an important component for the thief in PvE. Be it to lazily skip some bothersome group of mobs or to maximize your dps rotation, this has always been a very usefull thing.

And then there is the mobility aspect... Do you only use a single weaponset on your thief? I mean, you can't possibly have only a riffle equiped right?

As for "concentration", don't you think that the ui will start to be a bit messy with 4 "energy" bar? I mean: initiative, endurance, malice and concentration. That's way to many different things that the player will need to track for little impact in the gameplay.

Honnestly, I feel it's not worth the change, especially if you target PvE. At worst, you just don't use riffle in PvE and everything is fine. It's not like core thief don't provide reliable range option for PvE if you happen to need to stay at range.

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Stealth is not useful in PvE. There are no raid encounters where Stealth is a useful group-wide mechanic and it is only used by power Deadeye currently in order to deal DPS purely because it has to. There is no inventiveness in how it is used though I guess timing Revealed with Assassin's Signet and additional Malice building does add an interesting skill increase missing from core Thief. The majority of challenging Fractals do not have Stealth skips and I'd argue that Stealth skips in Dungeons and Fractals slow the majority of groups (that don't know the skips or aren't accustomed to Stealth) down since with power creep it is now easier (and more profitable) to just mow through what were once challenging mobs.

This is also where I come in and annoyingly point out that power Deadeye is actually pretty okay in raids - other power DPS professions bring too much (Weaver, Spellbreaker) and Deadeye still needs a defined niche but that is easy to achieve with a small PvE-only buff to Malicious Backstab's Malice scaling from 10% to 15%. Mobility is also fine. "Forward" Death's Retreat is possible with off-set Rifle and Shortbow of course has Infiltrator's Arrow which is actually pretty useful on fights such as Dhuum for getting to greens and for levers at the 10% phase - running out will kill a Thief but a quick arrow out and then quickness-enhanced channel and arrow back is very safe.

I do agree with Dadnir's point though that the whole concentration mechanic is unnecessary. We are one buff away from being pretty viable, and possibly optimal, on every Power-appropriate boss. Rifle needs more work but at this point, I'd happily take a stronger Dagger/Dagger from a minor change than the possibility of Rifle and our mechanics being messed up even more.

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@Wondrouswall.7169 said:I just want Peripheral Vision trait back. :heartbreak:

Yip, it was great. Bundling it in with another trait would work since they are all pretty useless in the second tier beyond Premeditation in instanced PvE. I think Payback has a nice place in open world PvE so would be inclined to suggest putting Peripheral Vision in with Premeditation.

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@"Dadnir.5038" said:

The current situation of Deadeye in PVE is very poor because of the dependence on stealth when it is useless in most of circumstances of PVE

You lost me just there...Stealth have always been an important component for the thief in PvE. Be it to lazily skip some bothersome group of mobs or to maximize your dps rotation, this has always been a very usefull thing.

Yes, stealth can help to skip mobs you don't want to deal with, but it is just another way to drop your dps. And all high end content like boss fight can't be skip.

And then there is the mobility aspect... Do you only use a single weaponset on your thief? I mean, you can't possibly have only a riffle equiped right?

It actually encourages you to swap your weapon in harsher fight situation where you need to dodge and melee when stacks of malice increase your attack speed and time to fill up your endurance, you will swap it back to rifle when thing is settled down and output maximum damage with rifle from safe spot.

As for "concentration", don't you think that the ui will start to be a bit messy with 4 "energy" bar? I mean: initiative, endurance, malice and concentration. That's way to many different things that the player will need to track for little impact in the gameplay.

Not 4, "Concentration" will replace endurance completely on ui, so it is 3.

Honnestly, I feel it's not worth the change, especially if you target PvE. At worst, you just don't use riffle in PvE and everything is fine. It's not like core thief don't provide reliable range option for PvE if you happen to need to stay at range.

Just don't use rifle that lose the point of being Deadeye, I think most of the player who play Deadeye because of rifle.

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@derd.6413 said:passive malice regeneration was removed because it promoted DE to camp stealth until it was full.the concentration mechanic is just over-complicating things.

The reason why DE wanted to camp stealth until full malice was because malice was a modifier of damage like 3% per stack, so I suggest that it should not increase damage directly but attack speed with other weapon except rifle to encourage player to engage battle. Secondly, you can't do permanent stealth like old time, so camping is not a better option now.

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@Rexts.8037 said:Just don't use rifle that lose the point of being Deadeye, I think most of the player who play Deadeye because of rifle.

Maybe I'm weird and a very small minority but I prefer the spellcasting aspects of Deadeye over Rifle. I'd sooner have the Cantrips and Deadeye's Mark than I would Rifle despite the previous version of the weapon being super fun.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:Stealth is not useful in PvE. There are no raid encounters where Stealth is a useful group-wide mechanic and it is only used by power Deadeye currently in order to deal DPS purely because it has to. There is no inventiveness in how it is used though I guess timing Revealed with Assassin's Signet and additional Malice building does add an interesting skill increase missing from core Thief. The majority of challenging Fractals do not have Stealth skips and I'd argue that Stealth skips in Dungeons and Fractals slow the majority of groups (that don't know the skips or aren't accustomed to Stealth) down since with power creep it is now easier (and more profitable) to just mow through what were once challenging mobs.

The simple fact: When other professions do superior damage and try to bring more benefit to teammate, DE dose nice (still below average) damage then go to stealth, no wonder why raid group want to say goodbye to DE.

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@Rexts.8037 said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

The current situation of Deadeye in PVE is very poor because of the dependence on stealth when it is useless in most of circumstances of PVE

You lost me just there...Stealth have always been an important component for the thief in PvE. Be it to lazily skip some bothersome group of mobs or to maximize your dps rotation, this has always been a very usefull thing.

Yes, stealth can help to skip mobs you don't want to deal with, but it is just another way to drop your dps. And all high end content like boss fight can't be skip.

I think there is a misgiven here. First fractal and raids are just a small fraction of what PvE is. And in a fight, stealth is a dps component, not something that drop your dps. You use stealth so that you get your stealth attack (which deal more damage than your other attacks) and then get your few second of revealed granting you an extra amount of power and thus increasing temporarily your dps.

The current way stealth attacks work with malice maximize this and correctly chosing your weaponset for what you intend to do make the best of this.

And then there is the mobility aspect... Do you only use a single weaponset on your thief? I mean, you can't possibly have only a riffle equiped right?

It actually encourages you to swap your weapon in harsher fight situation where you need to dodge and melee when stacks of malice increase your attack speed and time to fill up your endurance, you will swap it back to rifle when thing is settled down and output maximum damage with rifle from safe spot.

This is how the game work since release, the weapon swap is a very important mechanism for all professions because it's supposed to give you flexibility. In this case it allow you to switch from a static gameplay with poor evade ability (riffle) to a dynamic gameplay with good evade ability (sword for example).

As for "concentration", don't you think that the ui will start to be a bit messy with 4 "energy" bar? I mean: initiative, endurance, malice and concentration. That's way to many different things that the player will need to track for little impact in the gameplay.

Not 4, "Concentration" will replace endurance completely on ui, so it is 3.

That wasn't specified in what you've said or at least I didn't see it specified.

Honnestly, I feel it's not worth the change, especially if you target PvE. At worst, you just don't use riffle in PvE and everything is fine. It's not like core thief don't provide reliable range option for PvE if you happen to need to stay at range.

Just don't use rifle that lose the point of being Deadeye, I think most of the player who play Deadeye because of rifle.

Nope, not using a riffle don't lose the point of being a deadeye. What make the deadeye or any other e-spec is the new traitline and the new extra mechanism. Weapons and utility skills are always mainly "flavor" while what you are stuck with is always the traitline and the mechanism. It's up to the player to build around the trailine and mechanism and develop it's gameplay. In no way the player will have to take the e-spec weapon or utility skills.

Keep in mind that the gameplay of the deadeye don't revolve around the use of the riffle but around the clever use of it's "mark" which allow the thief to build malice, gain new bundles and quite a few other extra effects. Objectively, even if he is not top dps the deadeye already have it's dps niche and have also quite a lot of support for it's allies on it's own.

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One more thing I should clarify is that "Concentration" I mention is just a rename of "Endurance" when you activated rifle skill 5 "Breathless Interest" to distinguish the fact that your rifle skill 5 is activated , you can still dodge during using rifle. So you can see it as rifle skill 1 - 4 spend endurance for higher damage when rifle skill 5 is activated.

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@"Rexts.8037" said:The simple fact: When other professions do superior damage and try to bring more benefit to teammate, DE dose nice (still below average) damage then go to stealth, no wonder why raid group want to say goodbye to DE.

Please look at the comment I linked. Deadeye does not do below average DPS in a raid. It is actually, when played well, one of the stronger DPS options on pretty much every power-viable boss aside from Dhuum and I imagine you can actually get decent numbers on Dhuum. I just can't verify it since I either run greens or go chrono tank.

The biggest issue facing Deadeye is that it doesn't have a niche. "Good single target" isn't that much of a claim when other specs do very slightly more single target and cleave.

This is why I've been suggesting that the only changes Deadeye needs in PvE to gain two niches (and of course this would come with a skill split to not upset PvP and WvW) is:

Malicious Backstab Malice scaling increased from 10% to 15% per Malice.

Fire for Effect increased to 10 Might for 18 seconds.

This would give Deadeye the meta use of high single target, low cleave, low utility DPS and an off-meta Might share build for healing compositions without a Druid. These changes are also slight and easy to implement and do not necessitate a large overhaul of Deadeye again.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

The current situation of Deadeye in PVE is very poor because of the dependence on stealth when it is useless in most of circumstances of PVE

You lost me just there...Stealth have always been an important component for the thief in PvE. Be it to lazily skip some bothersome group of mobs or to maximize your dps rotation, this has always been a very usefull thing.

Yes, stealth can help to skip mobs you don't want to deal with, but it is just another way to drop your dps. And all high end content like boss fight can't be skip.

I think there is a misgiven here. First fractal and raids are just a small fraction of what PvE is. And in a fight, stealth is a dps component, not something that drop your dps. You use stealth so that you get your stealth attack (which deal more damage than your other attacks) and then get your few second of revealed granting you an extra amount of power and thus increasing temporarily your dps.

The current way stealth attacks work with malice maximize this and correctly chosing your weaponset for what you intend to do make the best of this.

And then there is the mobility aspect... Do you only use a single weaponset on your thief? I mean, you can't possibly have only a riffle equiped right?

It actually encourages you to swap your weapon in harsher fight situation where you need to dodge and melee when stacks of malice increase your attack speed and time to fill up your endurance, you will swap it back to rifle when thing is settled down and output maximum damage with rifle from safe spot.

This is how the game work since release, the weapon swap is a very important mechanism for all professions because it's supposed to give you flexibility. In this case it allow you to switch from a static gameplay with poor evade ability (riffle) to a dynamic gameplay with good evade ability (sword for example).

As for "concentration", don't you think that the ui will start to be a bit messy with 4 "energy" bar? I mean: initiative, endurance, malice and concentration. That's way to many different things that the player will need to track for little impact in the gameplay.

Not 4, "Concentration" will replace endurance completely on ui, so it is 3.

That wasn't specified in what you've said or at least I didn't see it specified.

Honnestly, I feel it's not worth the change, especially if you target PvE. At worst, you just don't use riffle in PvE and everything is fine. It's not like core thief don't provide reliable range option for PvE if you happen to need to stay at range.

Just don't use rifle that lose the point of being Deadeye, I think most of the player who play Deadeye because of rifle.

Nope, not using a riffle don't lose the point of being a deadeye. What make the deadeye or any other e-spec is the new traitline and the new extra mechanism. Weapons and utility skills are always mainly "flavor" while what you are stuck with is always the traitline and the mechanism. It's up to the player to build around the trailine and mechanism and develop it's gameplay. In no way the player will have to take the e-spec weapon or utility skills.

Keep in mind that the gameplay of the deadeye don't revolve around the use of the riffle but around the clever use of it's "mark" which allow the thief to build malice, gain new bundles and quite a few other extra effects. Objectively, even if he is not top dps the deadeye already have it's dps niche and have also quite a lot of support for it's allies on it's own.

The flexibility of weaponry can't justify DE rifle being suck, And rifle is not a must with this mechanism change, the main point of this change is exchange mobility for higher damage if possible, swapping weapon is actually what I promote when malice now increase attack speed on weapons other than rifle and be the extra initiative to perform more weapon skill, I am not planning to restrict player to use rifle.

Secondly, I want to stop the dependence on stealth to output maximum damage, though I want to keep the stealth attack of every weapons (they are nice). "Revealed" should be an alternative way to increase damage, but it should not be a must for DE, not every player favor stealth act.

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@Rexts.8037 said:

@derd.6413 said:passive malice regeneration was removed because it promoted DE to camp stealth until it was full.the concentration mechanic is just over-complicating things.

The reason why DE wanted to camp stealth until full malice was because malice was a modifier of damage like 3% per stack, so I suggest that it should not increase damage directly but attack speed with other weapon except rifle to encourage player to engage battle. Secondly, you can't do permanent stealth like old time, so camping is not a better option now.

hitting more often instead of hitting harder is still a passive dps increase.

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@derd.6413 said:

@derd.6413 said:passive malice regeneration was removed because it promoted DE to camp stealth until it was full.the concentration mechanic is just over-complicating things.

The reason why DE wanted to camp stealth until full malice was because malice was a modifier of damage like 3% per stack, so I suggest that it should not increase damage directly but attack speed with other weapon except rifle to encourage player to engage battle. Secondly, you can't do permanent stealth like old time, so camping is not a better option now.

hitting more often instead of hitting harder is still a passive dps increase.

You miss one point, increasing attack speed also increase the generation rate of malice in this mechanism, to encourage player to engage combat instead of stealth camping.

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@Rexts.8037 said:

@derd.6413 said:passive malice regeneration was removed because it promoted DE to camp stealth until it was full.the concentration mechanic is just over-complicating things.

The reason why DE wanted to camp stealth until full malice was because malice was a modifier of damage like 3% per stack, so I suggest that it should not increase damage directly but attack speed with other weapon except rifle to encourage player to engage battle. Secondly, you can't do permanent stealth like old time, so camping is not a better option now.

hitting more often instead of hitting harder is still a passive dps increase.

You miss one point, increasing attack speed also increase the generation rate of malice in this mechanism, to encourage player to engage combat instead of stealth camping.

sure, thing buddy.

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mechanical rework for pve ? are you serious?

you know anet only differs in modes with cooldowns, damage numbers, modifiers. for PvE you mainly need damage to be relevant as a DPS while in PvP modes you need mechanics to apply and avoid damage. therefor any mechanic change will affect PvP way more then PvE and no matter the mechanic deadeye has you can buff the numbers (for pve only) to a point that deadeye is good in pve.if you propose major mechanical changes without any word why each of this is good for PvP, then you cant really expect to be taken serious. because thats not how anet does balance, you allways have to keep in mind PvP if you do not just adjust some numbers.

as for your permastealth not possible as easy...well i didnt even have to read all your post to be certain no change to permastealth still easily doable without much investment into it.

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@"Rexts.8037" said:The flexibility of weaponry can't justify DE rifle being suck, And rifle is not a must with this mechanism change, the main point of this change is exchange mobility for higher damage if possible, swapping weapon is actually what I promote when malice now increase attack speed on weapons other than rifle and be the extra initiative to perform more weapon skill, I am not planning to restrict player to use rifle.

Let's get an objective look at the current riffle then:

  • The AA is a long range attack that debuff the target increasing incoming damage on it from all source (Apply vulnerability). It also have combo finisher to apply some extra conditions.
  • The second skill is a movement control skill that give you a bit of mobility as well.
  • The third skill is a range burst skill.
  • The forth skill grant you quite a lot of mobility or allow you to take cover preventing incoming projectile while kneeling.
  • The last skill allow you to kneel.

What I see is a weapon with already quite a lot of mobility, some controle and nice utility. Should such a weapon deal "higher" damage? No, this is a weapon that can both be used on the move and gain quite a bit of an impact and utility when it's used while being static, there is no need for "moar DPS". Do other weapons need faster attack speed? That's arguable (No player would say no to more attack speed whatever it's profession).

Secondly, I want to stop the dependence on stealth to output maximum damage, though I want to keep the stealth attack of every weapons (they are nice). "Revealed" should be an alternative way to increase damage, but it should not be a must for DE, not every player favor stealth act.

To stop the dependance on stealth by giving more passive free damage just mean that you want simpler rotation, so you want skill-less play more rewarding and skillfull play less rewarding. I'd lie if I'd say that gw2's gameplay isn't already very accessible. The game is, again and again, being over simplified, you got professions that end up controlling a large field without breaking a sweat, skills that are able to one shot foes, e-specs that can dish out their support without even needing to think... etc. And there you're here suggesting that the thief, which have already most it's dps tied to it's auto attack, need to have a simplified dps rotation where the very single thing that he needed to do to make the difference would be removed.

Removing "the dependance on stealth to output maximum dps", for the thief, this mean that the thief would just stand there, next to the boss, letting it's character auto-attacking and dodging from time to time. Just why would anyone play this? No challenge, no skill, not even the slightest bit of "fun"! Not even the need to faceroll on your keyboard, just standing there jumping and dodging while your character automatically hit the foe. No point at all.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:

@"Wondrouswall.7169" said:I just want Peripheral Vision trait back. :heartbreak:

Yip, it was great. Bundling it in with another trait would work since they are all pretty useless in the second tier beyond Premeditation in instanced PvE. I think Payback has a nice place in open world PvE so would be inclined to suggest putting Peripheral Vision in with Premeditation.

The idea of Payback should have been done for Improvisation. Randomly recharge a skill category (even one that the player isn't using) is a crap-shoot.

Since Premed has some use, I'd rather see Peripheral Vision replace Payback and see Improv improved around that idea like, "Stealing recharges the last heal, utility, or elite used by X%".

Would remove the randomness while not being a complete recharge (which can be too powerful) and dropping another "on kill" trait so it flows better in situations like PvE bosses and involves Stealing.

That and have it so every champion/legendary/world boss gives Steal Time and One in the Chamber grants the last stolen item used.

Removes even more RNG and allows a support/boon type DE to provide allies with quickness, but have to build heavily into things such as Improv that allows stolen item use twice and One in the Chamber, along with slotting more Cantrips.

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@"Miatela.5047" said:Stealth is not useful in PvE. There are no raid encounters where Stealth is a useful group-wide mechanic and it is only used by power Deadeye currently in order to deal DPS purely because it has to. There is no inventiveness in how it is used though I guess timing Revealed with Assassin's Signet and additional Malice building does add an interesting skill increase missing from core Thief. The majority of challenging Fractals do not have Stealth skips and I'd argue that Stealth skips in Dungeons and Fractals slow the majority of groups (that don't know the skips or aren't accustomed to Stealth) down since with power creep it is now easier (and more profitable) to just mow through what were once challenging mobs.

This is also where I come in and annoyingly point out that power Deadeye is actually pretty okay in raids - other power DPS professions bring too much (Weaver, Spellbreaker) and Deadeye still needs a defined niche but that is easy to achieve with a small PvE-only buff to Malicious Backstab's Malice scaling from 10% to 15%. Mobility is also fine. "Forward" Death's Retreat is possible with off-set Rifle and Shortbow of course has Infiltrator's Arrow which is actually pretty useful on fights such as Dhuum for getting to greens and for levers at the 10% phase - running out will kill a Thief but a quick arrow out and then quickness-enhanced channel and arrow back is very safe.

I do agree with Dadnir's point though that the whole concentration mechanic is unnecessary. We are one buff away from being pretty viable, and possibly optimal, on every Power-appropriate boss. Rifle needs more work but at this point, I'd happily take a stronger Dagger/Dagger from a minor change than the possibility of Rifle and our mechanics being messed up even more.

This kinda tells me you're the guy that whines about being cold when he has a coat in his hands.

Stealth useful in pve. Widely used in dungeons and fractals. It lets you skip certain parts and rush to the next major encounter. If the thief has too much heat on him stealth forces the enemies to retarget. It lets you comfortably go through notoriously difficult areas to collect resources. And it's also useful in blasting through some of the jumping puzzles when no mesmer is around to taxi.

Remember that PvE is not just raiding. Even then... Stealth had completely broke some encounters in the past and allowed just two thieves to complete the river of souls escort on their own with no difficulty. And it's a major part of thiefs damage rotation for daggers.

I do agree that other professions are bringing too much to the table. But Anet isn't going to do anything about it.

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@"MUDse.7623" said:mechanical rework for pve ? are you serious?

you know anet only differs in modes with cooldowns, damage numbers, modifiers. for PvE you mainly need damage to be relevant as a DPS while in PvP modes you need mechanics to apply and avoid damage. therefor any mechanic change will affect PvP way more then PvE and no matter the mechanic deadeye has you can buff the numbers (for pve only) to a point that deadeye is good in pve.if you propose major mechanical changes without any word why each of this is good for PvP, then you cant really expect to be taken serious. because thats not how anet does balance, you allways have to keep in mind PvP if you do not just adjust some numbers.

as for your permastealth not possible as easy...well i didnt even have to read all your post to be certain no change to permastealth still easily doable without much investment into it.

Though I know Anet won't do any huge change on any spec but only modifiers, CD and damage, I believe the problem of DE we are facing is a result of much deeper innate design flaw that can't be resolved easily with manipulating some number only. A fancy doesn't hurt, right?

I admit that I forgot the fact shadow meld is a stealth skill which should be excluded from the trait "Invisible hand" I mentioned. And permastealth should be a thing or not that is arguable if camping don't reward player with better damage anymore.

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@Rexts.8037 said:

@"MUDse.7623" said:mechanical rework for pve ? are you serious?

you know anet only differs in modes with cooldowns, damage numbers, modifiers. for PvE you mainly need damage to be relevant as a DPS while in PvP modes you need mechanics to apply and avoid damage. therefor any mechanic change will affect PvP way more then PvE and no matter the mechanic deadeye has you can buff the numbers (for pve only) to a point that deadeye is good in pve.if you propose major mechanical changes without any word why each of this is good for PvP, then you cant really expect to be taken serious. because thats not how anet does balance, you allways have to keep in mind PvP if you do not just adjust some numbers.

as for your permastealth not possible as easy...well i didnt even have to read all your post to be certain no change to permastealth still easily doable without much investment into it.

Though I know Anet won't do any huge change on any spec but only modifiers, CD and damage, I believe the problem of DE we are facing is a result of much deeper innate design flaw that can't be resolved easily with manipulating some number only. A fancy doesn't hurt, right?

I admit that I forgot the fact shadow meld is a stealth skill which should be excluded from the trait "Invisible hand" I mentioned. And permastealth should be a thing or not that is arguable if camping don't reward player with better damage anymore.

as you do not change malicious intent and on top give passive malice regen you would actually reward camping stealth faster, ontop you dont change anything about dagger malicious attack so i can then pretty easily mark, camp stealth a few seconds and onehit with backstab and that with gurateed at least 18 staks might from m7+FfE, because i wont need invisible hand. just your death's breath is enough for permastealth as it grants 3s stealth on 4ini with shadows rejuvenation your ini gain in 3 seconds is 4. and it is even permastealth for a full group just spamming 1 skill.again my main issue is that i dont think you had pvp in mind the slightest when making this list. you can make mechanic changes but you have to keep all modes in mind doing it, especially PvP for mechanic changes. ontop i disagree with the need for mobility, with limiting mobility you make positioning more important , we might not get rewarded enough for losing our mobility on kneeling but thats another story. even with your change you still need stealth for malicious attacks on any other weapon, if rifle should be the only one with a use for malice while visible i would prefer to put deaths judgement were it was before the rework and give us cursed bullet back, with scaling corrupt number on malice that could be really usefull against opponents with a lot of boons, for example in PvE at dhuum after soulsplit or in PvP against chronos /FB / Holo etc.

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