Siege Revisions — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Siege Revisions

edited June 25, 2018 in WvW

Hey folks!

A few weeks ago we gathered some feedback on the current state of siege weapons. We've gone through the feedback and have come up with a list of changes. The changes below are the first group of them. We may do additional changes down the line, but these were some of the quickest we could do (didn't require new code/UI). Feedback is welcome!

  • You can no longer be hit more than once every .5 seconds by arrow cart attacks.
  • Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50%.
  • The number of targets that can be hit by one arrow cart attack has been reduced from 50 to 25.
  • Shield generators can no longer put domes on other shield generators.
  • Shield generator domes no longer destroy unblockable projectiles.
  • Burning Oil Mastery 3 now also reduces condition damage. Damage reduction for both direct damage and conditions has been increased from 33% to 66%.
  • Catapult Gravel shot now shoots projectiles in a fan shape.
  • Updated Ballistas to make them more reliable.
  • Slowed the velocity of Ballista's Greater Reinforced shot to give it an arc. This should make it easier to hit stationary targets (siege).

Ben Phongluangtham
Game Designer
Reddit: ANET_BenP
Twitch: AnetBenP

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Comments

  • Fatherbliss.4701Fatherbliss.4701 Member ✭✭✭

    I like it at least as something to be tested. My goal in thinking through this is: Causing more structures to open up and open up faster. More potential for fights. Problem is often the changes that should help outnumbered folks have the opposite effect. Siege based game so I’m not going to advocate taking anything away but I think this is a good compromise to even the field.

  • GDchiaScrub.3241GDchiaScrub.3241 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:
    Hey folks!

    A few weeks ago we gathered some feedback on the current state of siege weapons. We've gone through the feedback and have come up with a list of changes. The changes below are the first group of them. We may do additional changes down the line, but these were some of the quickest we could do (didn't require new code/UI). Feedback is welcome!

    For something integral to the game I hope for additional changes too. Quick and dirty should at least curb some things.

    • You can no longer be hit more than once every .5 seconds by arrow cart attacks.
    • You can no longer be hit more than once every .5 seconds by arrow cart attacks.
    • Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50%.
    • The number of targets that can be hit by one arrow cart attack has been reduced from 50 to 25.

    With the .5 seconds limit I don't think the max cap change was necessary, but we'll see. Would have preferred 100% reduction to siege damage, but the internal cooldown (assuming it applies to siege equipment) will compound with that damage decrease.

    • Shield generators can no longer put domes on other shield generators.
    • Shield generator domes no longer destroy unblockable projectiles.

    Idk how that will work. Will it say invalid area when attempting to place the dome? Gucci if that's the case.

    • Burning Oil Mastery 3 now also reduces condition damage. Damage reduction for both direct damage and conditions has been increased from 33% to 66%.

    It'll still be useless without stability/defiance. D:

    Same deal with canons.

    • Catapult Gravel shot now shoots projectiles in a fan shape.

    Welp, I guess we can't glitch one shot people with it anymore.

    • Updated Ballistas to make them more reliable.
    • Slowed the velocity of Greater Reinforced shot to give it an arc. This should make it easier to hit stationary targets (siege).

    What is meant by more reliable or is just the number 3 arc-ing? I don't recall that being much an issue for bali, beyond it needed to do more damage to siege to compensate for siege health increase.

    Were you going to address Trebs given how they're more effective defensively compared to offense?

    Any changes to other siege that wasn't addressed (they seemed okay-ish to me).

    RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] always dies on inc masters of the Die On Inc technique where Prince Jarvan just died.

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  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Hm not the changes I personally was looking for on acs, but guess my zerk/mara builds won't complain.
    The shield gen changes look good, didn't know it would be possible not to put domes on other shield gens lol, (rangers you have one job and that's kill shield gens!), lets see how that plays out.

    Another derailing post. ^^
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  • @Blocki.4931 said:
    I have the feeling that arrow carts will become actually worthless. We'll see how it turns out

    Probably, at current AC's weren't much of a deterrent to me, I could stand in them all day. Now they'll do less damage to siege which was already not allot of damage. We'll probably see more trebs/catas placed in defense now.

    #nornmodeisbestmode

  • Gorani.7205Gorani.7205 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 said:

    • You can no longer be hit more than once every .5 seconds by arrow cart attacks.

    Does that mean you are limited by only getting hit by 2 ACs at the same time (since they pulse damage every second)?

    • Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50%.

    That reduces the ability to kill stacked rams at gates or close to walls A LOT. I think it is too much of a nerf.

    • The number of targets that can be hit by one arrow cart attack has been reduced from 50 to 25.

    Sounds like an OK change.
    Three nerfs to the AC at one balance step looks like they get "Smiter's Boon'ed". I very much think that the lone AC manned by a single to stop a small attacking party with one or two offensive sieges is absolutely useless now. Rams and catas will outlast the AC fire easily now.

    • Shield generators can no longer put domes on other shield generators.

    How does that work?

    • Shield generator domes no longer destroy unblockable projectiles.

    Good change. I think we all wanted something like that in the ideas thread.

    • Burning Oil Mastery 3 now also reduces condition damage. Damage reduction for both direct damage and conditions has been increased from 33% to 66%.

    Might not be enough without Stability and/or Resistance

    • Catapult Gravel shot now shoots projectiles in a fan shape.

    No increased damage or more CC condi still makes that useless compared to getting off the cata and auto attacking

    • Updated Ballistas to make them more reliable.

    Please explain. Is this the "higher point of projectile location" we suggested?

    • Slowed the velocity of Ballista's Greater Reinforced shot to give it an arc. This should make it easier to hit stationary targets (siege).

    I don't see how that will help with the ballista issue of line of sight ?
    >

  • Crazy.6029Crazy.6029 Member ✭✭✭

    Shield gen changes are ok, the rest is meh... Should of put a limited siege duration on all sieges. With the decrease in targets hit by acs this will only mean more arrow carts. Ill have to wait and see how the .5 sec delay turns out. This doesn't seem to solve the core issue which is there is too much siege.

  • I love changes. I don't care what the change is. Mix it up in WvW. Thank you! Here's my thought of these changes:

    • You can no longer be hit more than once every .5 seconds by arrow cart attacks.

    I think there became a point when the defenders had too many people on arrow carts and that was it- death to the attacker. There is no way around it excepting taking out some ACs before the fight or portal bombing on top of them or using shield gen 5's on the zerg before they enter. This is a good change IMO.

    • Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50%.

    I didn't think ACs were killing siege too quickly. There are sometimes an AC is the only way to kill siege, i.e., third floor trebs in SMC from below. I think ACs were mostly doing too much damage to players, not too much damage to siege. However, this was mostly the case because of the massive amounts of shield gens covering the siege which gave the rams/catas force dome, making it immune to AC fire.

    • The number of targets that can be hit by one arrow cart attack has been reduced from 50 to 25.

    This should allow attacks to fight defenders near walls without everyone getting hit as often. I think it's a good change. There was no reason for ACs to hit 50 people. I think the first AC nerf was enough, but this is a sure-fire way to make sure they've been reduced in their damage output overall.

    • Shield generators can no longer put domes on other shield generators.

    This is a lovely change. I know eXa's typical siege method is two shield gens on the left side of a gate, which then rotate bubbles, and then two more on the left side, also rotating bubbles. This allowed for no possible way to disable their shield gens, nor their rams/catas for that matter. This means that every single shield gen will always be vulnerable to siege disablers and other projectiles.

    • Shield generator domes no longer destroy unblockable projectiles.

    This is a fun change. I think we will see a rise of skills like "Nothing Can Save You!" or "Basilisk Venom" (or other skills that make your projectiles unblockable) from dedicated defenders to make their siege disablers unblockable and more effective. In general, besides the buff to disabler's effectiveness, this means that siege in general is more vulnerable when paired with shield gens.

    • Burning Oil Mastery 3 now also reduces condition damage. Damage reduction for both direct damage and conditions has been increased from 33% to 66%.

    Honestly, no one is using this. The only time I find myself on it is when the attacks have been pulled away from the tower by a friendly zerg and I can use it to deal loads of damage to their rams all at once. Or, if I can drain some supply from them as their building.

    • Catapult Gravel shot now shoots projectiles in a fan shape.

    I've never really used Gravel shot because I understood it to be bad. I'm glad it's changed to something else.

    • Updated Ballistas to make them more reliable.

    Terrific. Ballistas are meant to kill siege. I hope they do this better.

    • Slowed the velocity of Ballista's Greater Reinforced shot to give it an arc. This should make it easier to hit stationary targets (siege).

    Perfect. It needed an arc. Often I would have the ballista shot hit a small lip of a ledge and be useless. It's too bad that this skill has such a large cooldown though. If I want to take out some siege, It'd be nice if I could do it quicker.

    All in all, great changes. The next piece of siege that changes the tide of battle the most effectively is the cannon. 5k+ hits to 50 people is a lot of damage for one person to do.

  • Trajan.4953Trajan.4953 Member ✭✭✭

    This is the best news I've heard in ages! Bravo Arena Net

  • SkyShroud.2865SkyShroud.2865 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    Shield generators can no longer put domes on other shield generators.
    This is confusing. Does this means it won't overlap itself? Or if there is a shield gen in the area, the skill won't allow it to cast there?
    If it is the latter, does that means if a person troll drop a shield generator on the rams, you are gg?

    Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50%.
    So, not only shield generator is protecting the ram long enough to break the door, ac is weaken much that it can't destroy ram before it break the door?

    You can no longer be hit more than once every .5 seconds by arrow cart attacks.
    Does that means that if there are 5 acs, only one ac attack will go through every 1/2 seconds? So, if the math is correct. It takes about 30s before people will feel the pain which means 30s more time to setup shield generators or destroy ac with meteor.

    The number of targets that can be hit by one arrow cart attack has been reduced from 50 to 25.
    If the above point is what it is, then why is there a need to make ac even less effective? You already make it hard for ac to kill siege, less effective in hurting people, so now you telling them to spam twice amount of acs to hit same amount of people for way less damage?

    Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International PvX Guild
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    Explanations of WvW Structures & Populations Issues

  • Kitta.3657Kitta.3657 Member ✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    I like the outlook of these changes and I am looking forward to see their effect ingame.

    To those who still complain to this day about attackers trying to counter them sitting on arrow carts: use stability and learn how to properly place siege, this is entirely a player issue and not a game issue. I NEVER get pulled on walls or die to a wall bomb because I keep my awareness up. Besides as was previously mentioned you aren't meant to hold against enemies that triple or even quadruple your numbers!! You should be delaying to get reinforcements. Structures should not be impenetrable because 15 players just want to sit on siege inside of it and I find your viewpoint to be what causes a lot of boredom in this game mode.

  • This is a step in the right direction. Defensive play is just too strong right now. I personally think that there should still be changes to invulnerable walls/gate (It shouldn't be a minute long).

    Although this is a very good update, I'm still sad that there wasn't any golem changes. Omegas used to be so good but their auto-attack arch was nerfed and it is nearly impossible to hit anything on a wall with it. Hopefully golems become relevant in the future.

  • Blackarps.1974Blackarps.1974 Member ✭✭✭

    Updated Ballistas to make them more reliable.

    What does this actually mean?

  • Nice work. I agree with most of the points. The Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50% one is way to much though. If you are outnumbered there is no way to defend it anymore. Now you had a chance with some ac's. With this you are giving high populated servers even more advantage to lower pop servers. Siege was not destroyed to fast so for me this should go. The rest seem like nice changes.

  • Kitta.3657Kitta.3657 Member ✭✭

    @Crashdown.7419 said:
    Nice work. I agree with most of the points. The Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50% one is way to much though. If you are outnumbered there is no way to defend it anymore. Now you had a chance with some ac's. With this you are giving high populated servers even more advantage to lower pop servers. Siege was not destroyed to fast so for me this should go. The rest seem like nice changes.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siege_Disabler

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭

    Sounds like some good changes! If I'm reading this right, it will no longer be possible to completely repel any close-range attack with a few Superior ACs. At the very least, we might be able to heal through it - will have to see how it plays.

  • guildabd.6529guildabd.6529 Member ✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    What is the purpose nerfing ACs that much? They are really bad in their current state (never kills anyone, enemy blob health never goes below 90%).
    Usually, when enemies attacks tower or a keep, I leave that kitten ac for being too weak and instead drop ranged aoe on them.

  • Chaba.5410Chaba.5410 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @guildabd.6529 said:
    What is the purpose nerfing ACs that much? They are really bad in their current state (never kills anyone, enemy blob health never goes below 90%).
    Usually, when enemies attacks tower or a keep, I leave that kitten ac for being too weak and instead drop ranged aoe on them.

    Just build more arrow carts.

  • Waffle.3748Waffle.3748 Member ✭✭

    @Pagan Highlander.5948 said:
    I will try the new changes, however, I will say that I am against them. Those are fine for the Top tier where they are siege heavy andmapped queued most of the time. However at the lower tiers, these are huge detriments where you are usually outnumbered, outgunned, and easily outfought by Mag's blobs (A Tier 1-2 Serverhiding in T4 for kills. Just look at their insane KDR). In almost all cases, it is extremely difficult to get at and hit catapults up against your walls other then with Arrow Carts (With all the scourge bombs, its suicide to be on the wall). Thus you have mostly removed the only defense for a tower, especially if outnumbered.
    This will be even more pronounced and detrimental with servers without late night coverage. Crystal Desert can barely pull one map Queue during NA. This will just make them a total punching bag for all the other servers. Same thing will happen for the poor T3 server moving up into T2. This almost all favors the servers with the numbers of players. Unfortunately another case of ANET not looking at all sides of the issue.

    You're actually really out of date if you think Mag is a t1-t2 server anymore lol.

    [KEK]

  • coro.3176coro.3176 Member ✭✭✭

    @guildabd.6529 said:
    What is the purpose nerfing ACs that much? They are really bad in their current state (never kills anyone, enemy blob health never goes below 90%).
    Usually, when enemies attacks tower or a keep, I leave that kitten ac for being too weak and instead drop ranged aoe on them.

    Currently, 2-3 superior ACs can prevent any close-range cata or ram attack that doesn't have 100% shield gen cover. 2-3 superior ACs firing at a zerg will down squishies within seconds. The difference with regular ranged AOE is that you're putting yourself at risk to do it. The blob under the wall can shoot back at you. AC's can be placed far enough back that only some lucky Meteor hits can touch them.

  • @Kitta.3657 said:
    I like the outlook of these changes and I am looking forward to see their effect ingame.

    To those who still complain to this day about attackers trying to counter them sitting on arrow carts: use stability and learn how to properly place siege, this is entirely a player issue and not a game issue. I NEVER get pulled on walls or die to a wall bomb because I keep my awareness up. Besides as was previously mentioned you aren't meant to hold against enemies that triple or even quadruple your numbers!! You should be delaying to get reinforcements. Structures should not be impenetrable because 15 players just want to sit on siege inside of it and I find your viewpoint to be what causes a lot of boredom in this game mode.

    You're right, I should totally use all those stability-granting skills on the right side of my toolbar... that are disabled while I'm operating siege. (Seriously, are arrow carts breath-powered? HOW CAN I NOT SHOUT WHILE OPERATING AN AC!?)

    Or should I get off the AC, cast stability, get back on the AC, re-adjust my view so I can target something because getting back on the AC has ever so helpfully reset my camera, then get melted by five meteor showers, fifteen wells, and a dozen mesmer clones because they melted the other siege while I was adjusting my camera and can now focus on me?

    Also, I find the idea of being able to get 15 people to defend something hilarious. (Or, honestly, the idea of getting reinforcements, but that's more of a complaint about the dubious quality of the tags in our current server alliance.) And your dismissal of anyone who enjoys playing and succeeding as defenders as "what causes a lot of boredom in this game mode" is annoying as kittens.

  • @guildabd.6529 said:
    What is the purpose nerfing ACs that much? They are really bad in their current state (never kills anyone, enemy blob health never goes below 90%).
    Usually, when enemies attacks tower or a keep, I leave that kitten ac for being too weak and instead drop ranged aoe on them.

    Never kills anyone!? Have you ever stood underneath 5 superior acs? Now just get that ac damage and add it with the 50 man group bombing on top of you lol.

    Sure, if you're solo shooting an ac at a 30-50 man group it isn't that effective, but at least your burning some cooldowns.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    Equips aqua breather the flood of tears are coming.

  • @Crashdown.7419 said:
    Nice work. I agree with most of the points. The Arrow Cart damage against siege has been reduced by 50% one is way to much though. If you are outnumbered there is no way to defend it anymore. Now you had a chance with some ac's. With this you are giving high populated servers even more advantage to lower pop servers. Siege was not destroyed to fast so for me this should go. The rest seem like nice changes.

    I could build a sup AC after 1 cata was fully built, and kill the cata before the wall would go down, with no one repairing.

  • Kitta.3657Kitta.3657 Member ✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    @Kitanin.8394 said:

    @Kitta.3657 said:
    I like the outlook of these changes and I am looking forward to see their effect ingame.

    To those who still complain to this day about attackers trying to counter them sitting on arrow carts: use stability and learn how to properly place siege, this is entirely a player issue and not a game issue. I NEVER get pulled on walls or die to a wall bomb because I keep my awareness up. Besides as was previously mentioned you aren't meant to hold against enemies that triple or even quadruple your numbers!! You should be delaying to get reinforcements. Structures should not be impenetrable because 15 players just want to sit on siege inside of it and I find your viewpoint to be what causes a lot of boredom in this game mode.

    You're right, I should totally use all those stability-granting skills on the right side of my toolbar... that are disabled while I'm operating siege. (Seriously, are arrow carts breath-powered? HOW CAN I NOT SHOUT WHILE OPERATING AN AC!?)

    Or should I get off the AC, cast stability, get back on the AC, re-adjust my view so I can target something because getting back on the AC has ever so helpfully reset my camera, then get melted by five meteor showers, fifteen wells, and a dozen mesmer clones because they melted the other siege while I was adjusting my camera and can now focus on me?

    Also, I find the idea of being able to get 15 people to defend something hilarious. (Or, honestly, the idea of getting reinforcements, but that's more of a complaint about the dubious quality of the tags in our current server alliance.) And your dismissal of anyone who enjoys playing and succeeding as defenders as "what causes a lot of boredom in this game mode" is annoying as kittens.

    It's called awareness, if you think you can fire away and not be touched and not have to react to an attack, that's your fault. I see a zerg moving close to the wall? I get off the AC pop stab get back on. If I didn't see it? I have a stun break which you should have in WvW (and a lot of them come WITH stability) and I can use it so I don't fall off the wall. How about Warrior, per example, won't be pulled off a wall because a pull will proc the passive balanced stance and make him immune to that pull. There are easy and obvious ways to deal with your issue and you are being stubborn in not learning how to handle it better or pretending that these solutions aren't at your disposal. Put your AC at the top of stairs where meteor shower cannot hit you... Hello, safe spots. There are also other ways to defend than sit on arrow carts.

    I am not dismissive of people who enjoy defensive play (I would absolutely love if it was meaningful & if winning mattered), I am dismissive of the ones who can't understand how the game works and would rather hide than fight in a PvP gamemode while claiming stuff that is simply fixed with learning to play better.

    Be ready instead of turning off your brain on your AC :)

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I have to say, I love that arrow carts are finally getting a very much needed nerf.

    It might not be quite enough, or it might be slightly too much. I very much prefer sweeping changes like this however, see where the balance falls now, and decide on the final balance later once multiple options are known.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    @Pagan Highlander.5948 said:
    As for the cannons and Oil, I agree with GDchia Scrub, Cannons and oils are still pretty much useless unless you have good protection/stability. This need to be not only for them, but players on the walls. Why is it they can be insanely pulled off the wall, but we have to stand on the edge just to be able to fight back? Walls are supposed to be a major obstacle and DEFENSIVE advantage, yet everything is to the advantage of the attackers. at the very least, maybe make Window ports or shields that allow players to put up a defense. ANET seriously needs to get it Devs off their butts and come see how bad WvW really is. We need more defensive capabilities, not less.

    Agreed. One reason Castles were so hard to take historically is that the ranged fighter on a castle wall had a tremendous advantage over those below. They were much harder to hit and target with ranged attacks. In the game it in fact a liability. The enemy atacks can arc up over and out of the LOS of the player initiating the attack. They can pull you down off the way even without a LOS and the defender can only respond by jumping onto that lip to fire back.

    One reason AC's were so heavily relied on was that you could at least stage them back from the walls edges and did not need a direct LOS to hit an enemy. Without changes to Cannon/oil mortars the changes as proposed are too harsh on defenders.

    Cannons need a damage boost IMO. If someone is to suicide themself by manning one , they should be rewarded. Alternatively another mastery can be added that provides stability for XXX seconds when used.

    Burning oil needs quicker refresh times on the skills. It rare to get more then a handful of usages off before all the AOE saturating the area kills you.

  • Tammuz.7361Tammuz.7361 Member ✭✭

    Great changes, especially to ACs. Will hopefully encourage more actual PvP combat instead of people relying too much on siege during peak hours.

  • babazhook.6805babazhook.6805 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tammuz.7361 said:
    Great changes, especially to ACs. Will hopefully encourage more actual PvP combat instead of people relying too much on siege during peak hours.

    I do not think this will lead to more PvP. The reason many people fight "defensively" is because they are generally outnumbered on a battlefield. They might have 15 guys against a zerg of 40. They are not going to engage that group directly unless they just want to act as bags. When the ability to defend a structure removed that smaller group will jus move to another map where they can join a larger or backflip places they feel they can take before the blob arrives.

    Without changes to the population imbalance It my opinion the number of battles open field will in fact drop.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Meh reads as half measures to me but I'll withhold judgment until I've played the changes.

  • Karnasis.6892Karnasis.6892 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm waiting to see, but currently I'm not keen on the sounds of AC's being nerfed. Does it suck in t1-t2 to be stuck fighting people who constantly hide behind siege, sure. But at lower tiers, (especially with Mag sandbagging) the nerfs to AC's are awful. On top of that we now have really no good way to deal with point blank catas. Most good commanders take down defensive siege (cannons, oils) and that usually means the only defensive siege we have are AC's (you can counter cata I suppose if you have a good angle) but balli's are near useless in this situation. Unless we are playing against total squish characters I doubt we'll have a chance to kill a zerg with AC's (or at least reduced effectiveness), or be able to defend if we're on a low pop server or time zone.

    I get that folks should be able to pressure keeps and towers no matter what tier, but t3 defenses should be hard to break into, and take tactics beyond "Rush wall, build 7 catas and win", and now ac's potentially won't be able to stop that from happening. As for fights, I'm really sure that 50 man zerg really wants to "fight" those 7 defenders (only for loot, not because it'll be fun).

    I hope this doesn't cause the game in the lower tiers to be less fun than it currently is (someone convince Mag they want to go to t2/t1 again XD)

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2018

    I like to see these in action before saying if they are good or not. I just hope the Ballistas can hit siege a lot better then what it dose now LoS destroys this siege so badly. This is why i was looking forward to a placsable mortar being part of the siege kit sadly this never happen.

    When are these going live?

  • Kovu.7560Kovu.7560 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @XenesisII.1540 said:
    The shield gen changes look good, didn't know it would be possible not to put domes on other shield gens lol, (rangers you have one job and that's kill shield gens!), lets see how that plays out.

    Rangers will still get murdered if they stand on the edge of a wall to shoot a shield gen. The real benefit is if unblockable effects will work in tandem with siege disablers. If that's the case the in-a-small-area setup of x/x/x/shield-gen/shield-gen will get shaken up. (Though it already will if shield gens can no longer overlap each other with their bubbles.)

    ~ Kovu

    Fort Aspenwood,
    Ranger, Necromancer.

<13456710
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