Death Magic is near the top of most Necromancer players' list of profession problems and the trait line often threatens to derail other topic discussions.

Post your assessment of Death Magic's various deficiencies and what you think it needs to support its theme and compete with other specializations. (Search past discussions for ideas, too.)

Here is an example.

DM can build for toughness but doing so will not actually allow Necro to be a functional, effective tank in PvE, assist other players in defense, or provide much synergy in PvP.

Add some shareable group buff for a start on making DM less of a MM-only specialization.

I was thinking of some changes that might or not be popular:

• Round up some of the minion traits into the minors (first minor let you spawn a criter on an enemy death and grant you toughness per controled minion. 2nd minor make your minions explode in a poison nova when they die. Third minor grant you and your allies protection whenever a minion die.)
• Then we replace death nova by a trait that grant extra effect on minion's active skill (Bone minion add an explosion at the necromancer's feet, shadow fiend let the necromancer blind enemies around him, wurm let you leave a poisonous area at your feet at the moment you teleport... etc.)

@Anchoku.8142 said:DM can build for toughness but doing so will not actually allow Necro to be a functional, effective tank in PvE, assist other players in defense, or provide much synergy in PvP.

Isn't Rise + DM tanking still solidly effective? I know it isn't so popular since their condition output was reduced, but that still gives a big ol' spike of toughness.

Add some shareable group buff for a start on making DM less of a MM-only specialization.

I'm not certain that a minion-oriented trait line on a minion class is a bad idea. Rangers have the same dealio with their pet, after all: they can invest in it, or not, depending how much of a role they want played by the pet. Minions are kind of in the same bucket, I think.

@"Dadnir.5038" said:I was thinking of some changes that might or not be popular:

• Round up some of the minion traits into the minors (first minor let you spawn a criter on an enemy death and grant you toughness per controled minion. 2nd minor make your minions explode in a poison nova when they die. Third minor grant you and your allies protection whenever a minion die.)
• Then we replace death nova by a trait that grant extra effect on minion's active skill (Bone minion add an explosion at the necromancer's feet, shadow fiend let the necromancer blind enemies around him, wurm let you leave a poisonous area at your feet at the moment you teleport... etc.)

I'd certainly prefer that "death nova" was replaced by a single trigger of the minion active effect, and I think it would be a nice improvement to the basic template. The poison is not all that useful in most cases.

SlippyCheezeTo perform as a tank in PvE, solid aggro control and being able to reliably take incoming heals is traditionally necessary, not really dps. Minions are good at claiming aggro but are not controllable. Shroud does not actually block/avoid damage while it does avoid incoming heals. As a backup tank, Necro can work but does not do that great of a job due to its design. How many groups rely on Necro to control mob position and take all the hate? Necro can max toughness in PvE but that alone does not make it a good tank.

Also, DM is not supposed to be only a MM specialization. There are other traits there, too.

Dadnir, I like your suggestions.

So the main thing wrong with deathmagic is the traits and the concept. Traits in term of minion traits, there should be just one minion trait, and this one should not waste a grandmaster slot. Add the %stat buff for minions baseline and condense the rest into one trait that lets minion draw conditions / transfer them and give them the death nova effect. Minions are just utility skills, no utility skill in the entire game has more trait associated, and seeing 3 slots wasted here for a utility skill family that has no gameplay value in most game modes is just a waste.

Now to the conceptional part. Necromancers are very fragile out of shroud and their recovery is really bad, even IF you invest in healing power and blood magic. Its just a fact. Many necromancer traits are based around shroud and shroud only, shroud being the only real "free" defensive aspect is also coupled with its offensive skills, this means you CANT use it for defense only, because if you do, you will lack damage, depending on the build. Looking at core necro this is the most severe offender here, yes you have a healthshield for a somewhat good time, but while you use your "defensive" mechanic, you are easily countered and loose a lot of damage, meanwhile your enemy can RECOVER health.

Death magic just adds thougness and some weak effects for the most parts, thougness by itself is useless, especially in shroud starting from a certain degree.

What we need are traits that add RELIABLE defense, apart from only shroud, that are NOT reliant on hitting a target with conditions (when getting pressured / focused hard with CC you CANT do this, you need reliable defense)

Suggestions for such traits (most at Grandmaster power level to clearly indicate the concept) are:

• "While in shroud you cannot be critical hit, gain protection while being hit in shroud"
• " Become immune to poison and weakness, enemies striking you are inflicted with weakness and poison - take less damage by poisoned / weakened foes"
• " Protection also reduces incoming condition damage"
• " While under the effect of protection you loose conditions at a fast rate"
• "You can not take more then 10% of your maxlife in damage from a single hit, if you are hit for such an amount you gain protection"
• " You take reduced damage while stunned (40%)"
• " Take less damage and condi damage the lower your health gets damage reduced by 1% for each 2% of missing health"

These are the chooseable traits, something among these lines, should be present in order to enable more playstyles. Now for the minor traits they need to give deathmagic a personality.

• "Traits that are in effect while in shroud linger for 2 seconds after leaving shroud"
• " Reduce shroud cooldown by 30%"
• "Protection and weakness caused by you have increased duration / potency"

@Dadnir.5038 said:I was thinking of some changes that might or not be popular:

• Round up some of the minion traits into the minors (first minor let you spawn a criter on an enemy death and grant you toughness per controled minion. 2nd minor make your minions explode in a poison nova when they die. Third minor grant you and your allies protection whenever a minion die.)
• Then we replace death nova by a trait that grant extra effect on minion's active skill (Bone minion add an explosion at the necromancer's feet, shadow fiend let the necromancer blind enemies around him, wurm let you leave a poisonous area at your feet at the moment you teleport... etc.)

Minors should not require running a specific set of utilities.

@Crinn.7864 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:I was thinking of some changes that might or not be popular:

• Round up some of the minion traits into the minors (first minor let you spawn a criter on an enemy death and grant you toughness per controled minion. 2nd minor make your minions explode in a poison nova when they die. Third minor grant you and your allies protection whenever a minion die.)
• Then we replace death nova by a trait that grant extra effect on minion's active skill (Bone minion add an explosion at the necromancer's feet, shadow fiend let the necromancer blind enemies around him, wurm let you leave a poisonous area at your feet at the moment you teleport... etc.)

That's why they do not. The first minor spawn a minion when you kill something, the others rely on this first minor trait. Taking specific utilities sure make these minor stronger but isn't that the best outcome for traits?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/645/arenanet-lets-talk-death-magic-re#latest

It's still mostly relevant.

Remember how much we used to complain about Blood Magic? Let's do that for Death Magic.

@"Anchoku.8142" said:SlippyCheezeTo perform as a tank in PvE, solid aggro control and being able to reliably take incoming heals is traditionally necessary, not really dps.

Ah! Yes, my comments would absolutely not be applicable to a traditional tanking role. I was thinking of the current GW2 style tanking, which is about someone who doesn't die while they distract something, just for a little while. This is why, eg, mesmer is a choice tank -- they have a pile of "not dying" choices, while they distract the whatever it is.

In that role, though, I think the burst-toughness model is useful. (Even more when there was a way to extend the life of those minions, drawing it out, but even without.)

Minions are good at claiming aggro but are not controllable. Shroud does not actually block/avoid damage while it does avoid incoming heals. As a backup tank, Necro can work but does not do that great of a job due to its design. How many groups rely on Necro to control mob position and take all the hate? Necro can max toughness in PvE but that alone does not make it a good tank.

I'm not aware of any part of the game where you want anyone to take all the hate, all the time. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean there, but to my eye they have bonus toughness, some self-healing, and the ability to build with +vit for a very solid health bar -- and a second one if not scourge -- to cope with the parts they can't just avoid.

Anyway, thanks for explaining why your thinking was different from mine. I certainly agree that, in the context you were thinking of tanking, my response is completely wrong.

Guys, not dying is actually not good enough to be a tank in gw2. Technically every class in the game can tank if you slap on enough sentinel gear. The thing is that you need to be able to do other things than tank. That is why mesmer is the best and only tank in the game right because they can output every single boon in the game, namely quickness and alacrity, while not die.

Make death magic give necro as much tankiness as you want; however no amount of tankiness will make necro a viable tank unless mesmer is nerfed or necro can somehow grant as much boons as mesmers do.

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

@"Anchoku.8142" said:SlippyCheezeTo perform as a tank in PvE, solid aggro control and being able to reliably take incoming heals is traditionally necessary, not really dps.

Minions are good at claiming aggro but are not controllable. Shroud does not actually block/avoid damage while it does avoid incoming heals. As a backup tank, Necro can work but does not do that great of a job due to its design. How many groups rely on Necro to control mob position and take all the hate? Necro can max toughness in PvE but that alone does not make it a good tank.

You are also correct that this game has much less reliance on positioning than traditional holy trinity type games. That is why stacking is so prevalent. In other games, a functional tank's job is to hold aggro and position a boss so the rest of the group can dps, buff, debuff, heal the tank, and so on so players sub-group or play alone for maximum effectiveness.

I wish I knew more about aggro calculations in GW2 but it is definitely simpler than other games and involves more RNG. In older games, aggro calculations used factors like, damage from each player, health recovery from each player, aggro claiming and hiding skills, burst damage and heals, and other aspects that result in an AI deciding to take out the healers and highest dps without a tank generating enough hate. I miss that kind of complexity.

I also miss complex combinations and mobs having specific elemental weaknesses and strengths.

@Warscythes.9307 said:Guys, not dying is actually not good enough to be a tank in gw2. Technically every class in the game can tank if you slap on enough sentinel gear. The thing is that you need to be able to do other things than tank. That is why mesmer is the best and only tank in the game right because they can output every single boon in the game, namely quickness and alacrity, while not die.

Make death magic give necro as much tankiness as you want; however no amount of tankiness will make necro a viable tank unless mesmer is nerfed or necro can somehow grant as much boons as mesmers do.

This exactly.

Mesmer is the profession tanking because he can do way more than a necromancer can do. And honnestly, even if by some twist of fate anet decided to limit the mesmer's boon output, I'm pretty sure other professions would be put tanking before even considering the necromancer. I'd bet on engineer as the first pick because, I'd rather have an engineer tanking and providing extra condition damage than a necromancer giving nothing or giving it's vampiric aura.

Death magic is, in a lot of way, a traitline that feel unrefined. There is way to many minion major traits. A shy try to link poison to the traitline. A GM sustain trait that look like it's been forcefully picked from the Blood magic traitline and dumpt there. A trait that give a lot of power for some unknow reason... etc. Honnestly it's a mess and, while it do grant some survivability, it's not something that can make a necromancer the favored tank for any content.

@Anchoku.8142 said:

@SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

@Anchoku.8142 said:SlippyCheezeTo perform as a tank in PvE, solid aggro control and being able to reliably take incoming heals is traditionally necessary, not really dps.

Minions are good at claiming aggro but are not controllable. Shroud does not actually block/avoid damage while it does avoid incoming heals. As a backup tank, Necro can work but does not do that great of a job due to its design. How many groups rely on Necro to control mob position and take all the hate? Necro can max toughness in PvE but that alone does not make it a good tank.

Your fundamental mistake here is to assume that you can learn about THE aggro calculation method used by GW2.

In older games, aggro calculations used factors like, damage from each player, health recovery from each player, aggro claiming and hiding skills, burst damage and heals, and other aspects that result in an AI deciding to take out the healers and highest dps without a tank generating enough hate. I miss that kind of complexity.

Different enemies in GW2 have different mechanics for who they target. These include highest damage, distance, and highest toughness. Different attacks may also have different mechanics for target selection, such as melee/ranged combo enemies using their ranged or aoe attacks on distant targets while they continue to melee with the closest target.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aggro will give you a little more detail, but more or less says the same thing.

The closest place, incidentally, to the aggro mechanisms you describe (which, I note, have mostly been replaced by a multiplier on "tanks" that mean they are the highest threat regardless of absolute damage output) would be raids, where highest toughness is frequently used for primary target selection. (Also why rise makes a good tanking choice, in the currently implemented mechanics, because the toughness boost attracts the boss until it fades...)

I also miss complex combinations and mobs having specific elemental weaknesses and strengths.

I think delving into this would get too far off topic for your thread, so choose to let it go. :)

if i watched to traitlines Spite (power), Curse (condi), Blood magic (Group support/fight), Soul reaping (shroud) i hope death magic can get some solo support mechanics for himself. the thing necromancers are lacking is heal because next to heal skill there is no real healing mechanic (like guardian meditation heal 2k, mesm shatter heals 1k, ele can go from 10% to full every few seconds, ranger have Avatar or jacaranda on SB,....) on necromancer. if you attack a necro and bring him to 10 % and than dont attack him for 20 seconds he will still be at 10%. but every other class would heal full live in less than that. so e.g. unholy Sanctuary could give a buff that heals you About 5 sec after entering shroud (Maybe 800-1k per sec).

DM is also created around shroud uptime, just look to shrouded removal ( every 3 sec 1 condi cleanse). thats too weak since reaper Decay is so high that shroud uptime Maybe is 20-30% of time. after hot release shroud uptime was way greater (60+%). so effects should be changed to something fix that get activated when necros entering shroud. e.g. 5 sec resistance when entering shroud would help to get a clear spike while the first 5 sec in shroud. than you can leave shroud and continue your Rotation instead of Camping in shroud.

just my opinion... :3

Honestly minions traits are too weak for dedicating a whole line to themAs many people have said all minion traits need to be condensed into the three top traits in this line and thats it.

Ill keep it short to a list of things i think should be removed/reworked (just spitting ideas)

Things to be reworked

Armored Shroud - this minor is ok but its not very good either. A flat percent bonus reduction say 5% would even be better.

Putrid Defense - necro lacks real pressure with the condition needed to beinfit from this trait in pve thats never an issue in pvp that a bit of a different story. You could argue scepter auto but thats not really high poison pressure.

Soul Comprehension - where do i even start with this its just bad there is no real reason to have this. Necros get plenty without it its pretty much a free spot for any creative idea to take its place. I would personally would move something like the current version of deathly strength to this spot.

Reaper's Protection - BAD! just no.... why is the cool down on this so unrealistically high for a one shot skill that procs as a defensive mechanic ( wont break or absorb the cc that hits and usually wont fear your foe due to the counter of stability and or resistance.

Deadly Strength - scale an offensive stat based on a defensive stat. Not very useful in all honesty and its just a bide idea to scale stats on 2 opposite ends of a spectrum like that. I would change this to scale up both stats over time for each second you were in shroud allow the effect linger for 3-5 seconds after exiting shroud. I think 2% a second for power and 2% a second for toughness would do more than enough up to a max of 20 percent.

Beyond the Veil - could be so much more. Convert incoming damage to life force for 2 seconds , break target for 2 seconds etc.

Death Nova - let it go... its iconic trait but its garbage without the right numbers or additional mechanics to make it work properly Faster poison fields, make minions have a chance to drop them when hit not just on death. or just replace the trait to something more active all together that benefits minions while they are alive

Corrupter's Fervor - this is kind ok as it is but i don't know why it just cant be a flat 1% damage reduction and 2% condition damage reduction on applying a condition. Toughness really does not cut it in todays meta. You can have the maximum possible toughness in this game and still be 1 shot so i dont see the point of adding a ton of toughness traits 1 or 2 is enough for a slight boost necro does not need this many though.

Unholy Sanctuary - Could use a numbers adjustment on the heal per second

Bump

1. Fold Reaper's Protection into SR's Fear of Death and add a trait that a) makes utilities available in Death Shroud, b) adds 2 sec of protection to shouts, c) increases barrier duration depending on the amount of toughness the Necromancer has.
2. Death Nova can now force any minion's death by activating a minion skill while the skill in on cool down.
3. Corruptor's Fever should be changed to grant stacking ferocity instead of toughness.
4. Change Putrid Defense to a lesser Consume Conditions where applying Fear to an opponent will also convert up to 3 conditions into Life Force.