The Palawa Joko we fought might be Lyssa?

What's the deal with Palawa Joko extensively using illusions in Gandara? He made several dead bodies appear as the PC and he managed to hide and clone himself in the battle, plus he cloaked all the traps in the hallway, even jokes about it and tells you "you have a magical ring". If I remember correctly, GW1 states that he's a Necromancer, not a Mesmer. Also, why would he have such a powerful signet ring that reveals illlusions?

There's the thing with Balthazar using Lyssa's mirror when he disguised himself as Lazarus, one suggestion was that Lyssa was somewhat involved or at least sympathized with Balthazar, and gave him the artifact (though, he could've just taken it/stolen it). There's also the fact that when we killed Balthazar, he cursed every god EXCEPT Lyssa.

The scriptures of Lyssa even state that she disguised herself as a beggar in order to see who would be kind to her. Something seems fishy don't you think? Palawa Joko and mesmer magic doesn't seem to go hand in hand. The speech at the end, just before "Joko" was killed, doesn't seem like how Joko would talk as well, there's no reason to believe Joko has been around so much time as to see elder dragons rise and fall over and over again, or see gods come and go (there are no ancient records on Joko at all), or to know what happens when you kill dragons (unless of course it was LYSSA herself talking, or perhaps even other, even more ancient being than the siz themselves), and when he said "they should be grateful I lured you to me" could that be Lyssa talking about the other human gods?

But what if Lyssa somehow remained behind? Remember that Lyssa is double faced, could it be that one half of Lyssa, perhaps a chaotic one, is the one responsible of all the stuff that happened? Could she have had Joko hypnotized/controlled (mesmer magic tends to do that to some degree) and then she was talking thru him at that last moment just before he got eaten?

I think there is a clutching at straws here. There seems to be a lot of desperate ways to try and attach Lyssa to any possible character or situation when it makes precisely no sense whatsover. We've seen this before when players have desp wanted something to actually be Lazarus, or (ironically) Joko and so forth.

At the end of the day, there isn't a scrap of a clue which leads us to believe Joko was anyone but Joko, whatever his background (sadly thrown to the wolves) was

@Randulf.7614 said:I think there is a clutching at straws here. There seems to be a lot of desperate ways to try and attach Lyssa to any possible character or situation when it makes precisely no sense whatsover. We've seen this before when players have desp wanted something to actually be Lazarus, or (ironically) Joko and so forth.

At the end of the day, there isn't a scrap of a clue which leads us to believe Joko was anyone but Joko, whatever his background (sadly thrown to the wolves) was

Yeah, probably its just bad writing, but its fun to speculate. It's just sloppy to make Joko use illusion magic though, unless there's something else that I'm missing, or Joko is actually a N/Me.

@Knuckle Joe.7408 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:I think there is a clutching at straws here. There seems to be a lot of desperate ways to try and attach Lyssa to any possible character or situation when it makes precisely no sense whatsover. We've seen this before when players have desp wanted something to actually be Lazarus, or (ironically) Joko and so forth.

At the end of the day, there isn't a scrap of a clue which leads us to believe Joko was anyone but Joko, whatever his background (sadly thrown to the wolves) was

The illusion stuff is interesting, but Joko is old enough to have either mastered multiple schools or accumulated magical artifacts (like the ring). He did after all squash Mordremoth with his thumb...

Palawa Ignaceous Joko's name is suspicious too... Too fiery... Canach suggests that Balthazar's Magic is influencing Aurene and we all know Balthazar decapitated his father. I suspect Palawa Joko is said father thus explaining why Balthazar went to him. Dhuum was unkillable and had to be sealed away indicating that the original Gods are unkillable unlike their usurpers.

Abaddon created a Lich using Necromancy so Ignaceous if Balthazar's father could easily claim half of the Chaos Magic Sphere following Balthazar's stealing of his power and invent the notion of Lyssa being two Gods when she is infact one and with the "sister" being Ignaceous in disguise while still using Necromancy to pass himself off as an ordinary Lich.

Particularly suspicious is the fact that when Balthazar got killed, he cursed all the gods except Lyssa!

@Knuckle Joe.7408 said:Particularly suspicious is the fact that when Balthazar got killed, he cursed all the gods except Lyssa!

if Palawa Joko is infact Balthazar's father like I suspect and had conjured up the Lyssa is two Goddesses instead of one belief then Balthazar(who is a bit of a brute by what we've seen) could easily be fooled by the act and thinks Lyssa is infact his father and is unaware that the real Lyssa existed and was in on the plan to bring him down.

In the final mission, Joko makes a comment about "breaking out the crystal". It's a very heavy indication that all the illusions were set up utilizing this crystal of undescribed nature, and that he had intentionally left the skill signet ring for the Commander to find (if you hit the lasers ~10 times, Joko gets annoyed with the PC and tells players that "it's not hard, I gave you a magical ring, use it!").

Joko is not a mesmer in disguise. And he himself never uses mesmer abilities. He uses a powerful magical artifact to utilize spells outside his repertoire. His reanimation scene kind of proves that he's no god as well. He's a full out lich that simply cannot die by normal means, and he can empower himself through lifestealing capabilities (when he kills one of his Awakened).

@"Knuckle Joe.7408" said:The speech at the end, just before "Joko" was killed, doesn't seem like hhow Joko would talk as well, there's no reason to beleive Joko has been around so much time as to see elder dragons rise and fall over and over again (there are no ancient records on Joko at all), or to know what happens when you kill dragons (unless of course it was LYSSA herself talking), and when he said "they should be grateful I lured you to me" could that be Lyssa talking about the other human gods?

Joko has a LONG history of lying, and one of those lines fed constantly to Elonians is that he has been around forever, since the dawn of time, and is the maker of gods and commander of dragons. So you really find it weird that Joko proclaims to have seen the Elder Dragons rise and fall?

And while there are no records of Joko pre-700 AE, there are also no clear indication of how old he is, or what he knows. Joko's kingdom since the beignning was on the border of Forgotten space. He's had 500+ years to learn about the nature of the Elder Dragons. And he may not even be only 500 years old but much older - while unlikely, it's impossible to know.

Besides, in

to his loyalists, which he records in the chance he dies, and admits as much in the recording, which he makes as the Commander is raiding Gandara, he makes a comment about how the "fig leaf" was in style when he first died. Suggesting that was as old as the basic hunter-gatherer primitiveness of whatever species he comes from (humans? mursaat? something else that's now extinct?). While that particular message feels rife with lies, his words during his final speech to the Commander seem different in tone than his other tauntings and proclamations of falsehood; this suggests that he wasn't lying (completely) to the Commander.

And the "they" in that line was 100% referring to the mortals of the world. Context is everything.

@Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:Palawa Ignaceous Joko's name is suspicious too... Too fiery... Canach suggests that Balthazar's Magic is influencing Aurene and we all know Balthazar decapitated his father. I suspect Palawa Joko is said father thus explaining why Balthazar went to him. Dhuum was unkillable and had to be sealed away indicating that the original Gods are unkillable unlike their usurpers.

Dhuum is never said to be unkillable. It was merely said that Grenth (and later, the GW1 PC and Reapers, and later the GW2 raiders, Reapers, and Desmina) are incapable of such. This merely means that Dhuum is stronger than Grenth in the ways of death mastery. This says nothing about the other gods, especially since Abaddon's predecessor seems to be dead (as well as any other unstated predecessor besides Dhuum). We don't even know for a fact that Dhuum is an original god, despite your outright proclamation of such (nor do we have any indication that Balthazar's father was ever divine or demi-divine).

And there's nothing all that odd with Joko's middle name being Ignacious. Not every name must have some special meaning.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In the final mission, Joko makes a comment about "breaking out the crystal". It's a very heavy indication that all the illusions were set up utilizing this crystal of undescribed nature,

This breaking out the crystal is a figure of speech. He means he is breaking out his finest crystal glass ware same as if he said I’m breaking out the China or breaking out the fondu pot. He is not talking about a literal crystal.

Palawa Joko: I hope you feel at home; I spent so much time preparing for you. Nice to have a reason to break out the crystal. (laugh)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead_glass

@"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:Palawa Ignaceous Joko's name is suspicious too... Too fiery... Canach suggests that Balthazar's Magic is influencing Aurene and we all know Balthazar decapitated his father. I suspect Palawa Joko is said father thus explaining why Balthazar went to him. Dhuum was unkillable and had to be sealed away indicating that the original Gods are unkillable unlike their usurpers.

Abaddon created a Lich using Necromancy so Ignaceous if Balthazar's father could easily claim half of the Chaos Magic Sphere following Balthazar's stealing of his power and invent the notion of Lyssa being two Gods when she is infact one and with the "sister" being Ignaceous in disguise while still using Necromancy to pass himself off as an ordinary Lich.

This was a little confusing, what exactly do you mean?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Joko has a LONG history of lying, and one of those lines fed constantly to Elonians is that he has been around forever, since the dawn of time, and is the maker of gods and commander of dragons. So you really find it weird that Joko proclaims to have seen the Elder Dragons rise and fall?

To be fair, when it comes to Joko, anything he says can be taken as a joke or some nonsensical propaganda. But honestly, that scene and monologue simply didn't feel like he was in the PR mode

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In the final mission, Joko makes a comment about "breaking out the crystal". It's a very heavy indication that all the illusions were set up utilizing this crystal of undescribed nature, and that he had intentionally left the skill signet ring for the Commander to find (if you hit the lasers ~10 times, Joko gets annoyed with the PC and tells players that "it's not hard, I gave you a magical ring, use it!").

Joko is not a mesmer in disguise. And he himself never uses mesmer abilities. He uses a powerful magical artifact to utilize spells outside his repertoire. His reanimation scene kind of proves that he's no god as well. He's a full out lich that simply cannot die by normal means, and he can empower himself through lifestealing capabilities (when he kills one of his Awakened).

@"Knuckle Joe.7408" said:The speech at the end, just before "Joko" was killed, doesn't seem like hhow Joko would talk as well, there's no reason to beleive Joko has been around so much time as to see elder dragons rise and fall over and over again (there are no ancient records on Joko at all), or to know what happens when you kill dragons (unless of course it was LYSSA herself talking), and when he said "they should be grateful I lured you to me" could that be Lyssa talking about the other human gods?

@"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:Palawa Ignaceous Joko's name is suspicious too... Too fiery... Canach suggests that Balthazar's Magic is influencing Aurene and we all know Balthazar decapitated his father. I suspect Palawa Joko is said father thus explaining why Balthazar went to him. Dhuum was unkillable and had to be sealed away indicating that the original Gods are unkillable unlike their usurpers.

First off, I don't know where you're getting the crystal he uses for illusions from. I immediately thought he was just referring to fine dinner ware like he's hosting a party. lol

And secondly, I don't think the name Ignaceous is odd, but I think the fact that we never knew it until this episode is odd. I think it's odd that an ego-maniac with 100 different titles wouldn't have ever mentioned his name before now and with the emphasis he used while saying it. It could be that he didn't see it as important and just wanted to say, "they will all love ME, first name middle name, last name" with this tone that before he became what he is his name meant nothing and finally will, or it could be that it's a clue as to who or what he really is.

For a little while I entertained the idea that he was a Djinn, and I liked the idea someone had of him being a Mursaat or a seer. But this idea of him being Balth's father is pretty interesting. If all his rambling is true about watching the elder dragons come and go and the gods weren't here that far back for the previous dragon rise, then that timing wouldn't really add up would it?

I definitely didn't get the impression that it was his typical gloating, and the bit he mentions about his immortality being extremely understated definitely seemed like major foreshadowing, even with Aurene taking a bite out of him. He may not come back or possess Aurene, but I think that statement of his immortality is going to have a lot more meaning later on, perhaps in finding out his origin or what he really is.

Then again, he may just be a perma-gone egomaniac lich that got eradicated from the story to move back to Kralk with no further mention of him and no explanation of his backstory or origin.

Whichever way they go, I'm not upset about how Joko "died" and I didn't want it to be a season-long battle anyway, but I will be highly disappointed if this is the complete end of his plot and we learn nothing about his origin and history or the "truth." I think if we don't get that in an episode, we should at least explore this subject material in current events. Whether it's random collection achievements in hidden areas, Istan-library style diary pages we can find throughout the world, or a vision Aurene shows us now that she's absorbed Joko into her self.

This theory does have some merits. All in all, Joko died way too easy. After all the hype and lead up just to get bitten down to size, seems a bit quick and simple. A more terrifying thought is joko still might be alive in his "current state" just unable to act until he's freed. Though either the uhh.. "natural" way or something else.That is IF it was joko.

It was not lyssa for the same reasons as joko, this is just too easy of a kill. If it was lyssa we would expect the same grandiose battle as we got with balthazar.

The weird thing is the illusions. Joko couldn't do that in Gw1, we saw him fight a few times and he used no illusions It is possible joko learned to be a N/Me (Necromancer Mesmer) Something that was possible in Gw1. However we saw more Mesmer than necromancer in that last fight. It could be possible that joko had a body double, but then it would also have been used when he went missing.

There's alot in this chapter that doesn't pass the smell test.-Why did he leave us the one thing that we needed to defeat him?(the signet ring?)-Why did he use illusions instead of undead or a combination?-Why suddenly go all out on tyria?

It sounded like he planned this form the start, but anyone would be able to know picking a fight with 5 nations, including 4 that are immune to your super-weapon. Is not a good idea. Something is up, whether it's all part of joko's plan or a simple plot hole.

You guys are overthinking the illusion stuff. Balthazar has no illusion powers, he got a mirror from Lyssa. Joko has a massive army of awakened people who must do whatever he wants and says. He got a bunch of mesmers together and got them to make some artifacts for his desired purposes. Lyssa is not the only thing in Tyria with mesmer magic.

@Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:Dhuum was unkillable and had to be sealed away indicating that the original Gods are unkillable unlike their usurpers.

the human gods (mist being with enormous amount of magic) aren't 'unkillable', it's the fallout of their death will result in catastrophic consequences

Here's an extract from GW1

In the ensuing battle, the players must renew his bonds and then assault him in his weakened state until they are able to destroy him.

Once destroyed, his knowledge and power become unleashed, threatening to destroy the entire realm. At this point, Kormir recognizes what her gift is, and throws herself into all that knowledge and power, in essence, supplanting Abaddon and becoming the new Sixth God... Kormir, the Goddess of Truth, Knowledge, and Secrets.

Even at the weaken state to the point that can be slayed by a human, abbadon's power was still enough to destroy the Realm of Torment, just imagine what happens if a human god was slayed at their full power; slaying Dhuum will most likely destroy the entire Under World

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:In the final mission, Joko makes a comment about "breaking out the crystal". It's a very heavy indication that all the illusions were set up utilizing this crystal of undescribed nature, and that he had intentionally left the skill signet ring for the Commander to find (if you hit the lasers ~10 times, Joko gets annoyed with the PC and tells players that "it's not hard, I gave you a magical ring, use it!").

Although there is no indication of being related(Joko<>Deldrimor stuff), just notice that this concept of a magic crystal, was also used in the new fractal.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vibrant_Crystal

Purposely or not its clear that team "borrowed" that stuff from fractal(or vice-versa), also the thing of power that reveal things.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_of_Deldrimor

I concur that in context, the 'crystal' is likely just the common phrase used by pretentious hosts, but Joko using illusions also isn't that big of a deal. At least two of the three other people we've met in GW2 who're older than two hundred have doubled up on spellcasting professions, so it wouldn't be weird if Joko had... but we were also introduced, earlier in the plot, to objects that could project illusions that Joko could perceive and speak through: the statues. They were apparently mass-producible to the point that he arranged for every dwelling in Palawa's Benevolence to contain one, and were small enough that they could be easily hidden. We already know that he had objects capable of complicated illusion magic, so something as simple as up covering elements of our surroundings doesn't seem remarkable to me.

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:I concur that in context, the 'crystal' is likely just the common phrase used by pretentious hosts, but Joko using illusions also isn't that big of a deal. At least two of the three other people we've met in GW2 who're older than two hundred have doubled up on spellcasting professions, so it wouldn't be weird if Joko had... but we were also introduced, earlier in the plot, to objects that could project illusions that Joko could perceive and speak through: the statues. They were apparently mass-producible to the point that he arranged for every dwelling in Palawa's Benevolence to contain one, and were small enough that they could be easily hidden. We already know that he had objects capable of complicated illusion magic, so something as simple as up covering elements of our surroundings doesn't seem remarkable to me.

In Guild Wars, there was a definite trend towards having a secondary profession, and it wouldn't contradict established lore, if Joko was a Necromancer/Mesmer, since up to that point he only used necromancer abilities, including a ludicrous amount of elite abilities.I mean Hierophant Burntsoul was an Elementalist/Monk, even the player character could choose a secondary profession.Also, Joko did get around, so like my tabletop players in D&D, it is likely that he had a stockpile of magical items to utilize for a 'grand finale'. His phrase breaking out the crystal is likely a double meaning of

1. Mobilizing all he has left for a decisive battle, or failing that, a magnificent tale.
2. Celebrating a party. Great showmanship there.
3. Utilizing the magic items he has accumulated over the years.

And even that may not be the last we heard of Joko. In the world of Guild Wars dead doesn't automatically gone. He'll likely reappear in the mists, exchange nasty words with Oswald Thorn and plot his return, just like our friend Gaheron Baelfire, who almost succeeded in CoF P2.What never gets mentioned about Joko was his greatest abillity and the actual reason he made it for so long. His ability to disengage, his permanent 66% movement speed bonus, his ability to not engage and the fact that he always had a plan.So while it is unlikely that it was anyone other than Palawa Joko and that he did die, that may not stop him from reappearing later.

Edit/Addendum: I have something on Joko's middle name, though. It is not an elonian name per se. While Elona has african/arabic themend names, Ignaceus is of latin origin. That may or may not point towards him being of mixed heritage, though it is established that he never was a member of the primordial dynasty. Maybe his middle name would allow him to be traced to a family from Orr? A minor noble Family that has no ties with the primordial kings? If it is something that would prove his claim to royalty a lie, of course he would avoid using his middle name in public.

@"Castigator.3470" said:Edit/Addendum: I have something on Joko's middle name, though. It is not an elonian name per se. While Elona has african/arabic themend names, Ignaceus is of latin origin. That may or may not point towards him being of mixed heritage, though it is established that he never was a member of the primordial dynasty. Maybe his middle name would allow him to be traced to a family from Orr? A minor noble Family that has no ties with the primordial kings? If it is something that would prove his claim to royalty a lie, of course he would avoid using his middle name in public.

~~It will mess up the lore, since Orr, Kryta and Ascalon were colonized by Elonians. But by the way primeval kings names is already out of standarts, are almost anglo-saxon names, instead of arabic names(with the exception of the twin queens).

theres already 2 inconsistencies in lore about human expansion: 1-the speed with which humans assemble a new kingdom and these gain independence, is extremely unrealistic, even for a fantasy world. 2-If Elonians are descendants of Cantans who came to colonize elona, and if the other kingdoms were founded by elonians, why is there only predominance of dark-skinned people among elonians?~~

EDIT: i did a check Orr already was colonized by the primeval kings era. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Timeline

@"Castigator.3470" said:Edit/Addendum: I have something on Joko's middle name, though. It is not an elonian name per se. While Elona has african/arabic themend names, Ignaceus is of latin origin. That may or may not point towards him being of mixed heritage, though it is established that he never was a member of the primordial dynasty. Maybe his middle name would allow him to be traced to a family from Orr? A minor noble Family that has no ties with the primordial kings? If it is something that would prove his claim to royalty a lie, of course he would avoid using his middle name in public.

Orrians don't use latin names, but arabic. So that seems unlikely. Then again, there really isn't a group with an established latin setting. The closest would be the Luxon greek names or the name of King Doric (similarly likely of greek origins - doric column style and all).

@ugrakarma.9416 said:It will mess up the lore, since Orr, Kryta and Ascalon were colonized by Elonians.

Orr was settled at the same time as Elonians. Kryta and Ascalon were settled by Orrians. Elonians only ever settled Istan, Kourna, Vabbi, and the Crystal Desert. They did recolonize Kryta in 300 AE but Kryta was founded before the Exodus by Mazdak originally.

But by the way primeval kings names is already out of standarts, are almost anglo-saxon names, instead of arabic names(with the exception of the twin queens).

The names you refer to are references to Christmas stories, as those kings were introduced with Wintersday.

theres already 2 inconsistencies in lore about human expansion: 1-the speed with which humans assemble a new kingdom and these gain independence, is extremely unrealistic, even for a fantasy world.

Unrealistic on the belief that humans came into the world as stone age, perhaps, but if they were Bronze or Iron Age level of civilization, then they could easily build capital cities and colonize entire shorelines/islands within a few years.

2-If Elonians are descendants of Cantans who came to colonize elona, and if the other kingdoms were founded by elonians, why is there only predominance of dark-skinned people among elonians?

It's never actually said that the humans who colonized Elona came from Cantha. It's implied, yes, but only because we don't know of any other place humans had settled before Elona/Orr. Similarly, it's also heavily implied that humanity lived somewhere else before Cantha on the world through various bits of lore; plus we don't really witness any Elonian until a few centuries in an entirely different environment. Same with Orrians (and naturally, Ascalonians and Krytans).

maybe you are lyssa? or perhaps it's me?

@Knuckle Joe.7408 said:But what if Lyssa somehow remained behind? Remember that Lyssa if double faced, could it be that one half of Lyssa, perhaps a chaotic one, is the one responsible of all the stuff that happened? Could she have had Joko hypnotized and then she was talking thru him at that last moment just before he got eaten?

The effects on Aurene of eating a God would have been much greater than the burp she gave after eating Joko

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:It's never actually said that the humans who colonized Elona came from Cantha. It's implied, yes, but only because we don't know of any other place humans had settled before Elona/Orr. Similarly, it's also heavily implied that humanity lived somewhere else before Cantha on the world through various bits of lore; plus we don't really witness any Elonian until a few centuries in an entirely different environment. Same with Orrians (and naturally, Ascalonians and Krytans).

So i didnt got, it is the case of the difference between "first time" and "first time recorded in history".

What if Joko was just tired of ruling and wanted to go out in one final grandiose fight against the one person he felt was a worthy opponent? The one person he respected as an "almost" equal? Living forever gets old i'm sure. He's never been an "evil" character per say, more along the lines of "true chaotic neutral".

Compare the signet in the ring and pattern of Relic of Lyssa, you will find they are “Mirror opposite”https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Relic_of_Lyssa