(Spoiler) Theory of Joko after LWS4 Ep3 (Spoiler)

Okay, so Joko cant die right? After you kill him, he comes back to life... but wait, aurene ate his body... so what if, and granted, this is a stretch here, but what if Joko is alive inside of Aurene, sort of like how the Nine-Tail-Fox demon is alive inside Naruto. This opens so many possibilities!

For instance, prehaps Joko will attempt to take control of Aurenes body, and we will have to help her surpress him. Afterwords, through Aurene, we may be able to commune with him, forcing him to unwillingly be one of our companions and share his advice/knowledge and possibly even power with us. Of course, I expect he'd share a few insults and jokes too while hes at it. Although its possible we may come to truly befriend him later down the road. I especially feel like he could bond with Canach, as they both love sarcasm, dark humor, and picking on the commander.

Man, i feel like my brain just jumped down a rabbit hole... it would be really cool if something like this happened. Maybe even thats why Aurene got sick after eating him...

Of course its also possible during their mind battle for control of Aurenes body, instead of surpressing Joko, she may just completely destroy his personality and fully intigrate his absorbed magic. After all, if it is his magic that makes him eternal, perhaps taking that magic away will undo his eternalness and finally make him die... assuming that eating him didnt do just that.

It’s possible but I don’t think it’s likely.

If he does “possess” Aurene it could set up an episode involving finally finding out his backstory and possibly extracting his soul, perhaps with the use of Livia and the scepter of Orr. This might tie into the scepter legendary.

So who knows! Maybe, but it’s really hard to tell. Lol

Found a similar idea from Robin Baird@Arlee82 at MMORPG.com on twitter:

https://mobile.twitter.com/Arlee82/status/1012720762602606594

Joko is dead. His story is done. I wish they hadn't done it so early, but any thoughts of him being alive inside Aurene or any theories would actually be worse writing than the situation currently presented. His whole monologue was a stereotypical villain getting in his final lines before his death since he will not get to utter more. There is literally no logic in him being still alive in any other way when it would be simpler and make much more sense just not to have killed him off.

Joko's involvement in Guild Wars done with, with possibly some lore mopping up, but even that might be too late now.

@Randulf.7614 said:Joko is dead. His story is done. I wish they hadn't done it so early, but any thoughts of him being alive inside Aurene or any theories would actually be worse writing than the situation currently presented. His whole monologue was a stereotypical villain getting in his final lines before his death since he will not get to utter more. There is literally no logic in him being still alive in any other way when it would be simpler and make much more sense just not to have killed him off.

Joko's involvement in Guild Wars done with, with possibly some lore mopping up, but even that might be too late now.

I disagree completely. You say it wont work, but similar story beets have been successfully done. And you say Joko is dead, but for an undying lich, dead isnt simply dead. If this is done right, it could add so much more depth and intrigue to the story. Of course its also easy to come off as a cheap rip off, or sloppy extension dragging on the story unessicarily. But i prefer to be optomistic. Up til this episode (which was bad in my opinion) ANet has been gradually getting better at story telling... but if Joko isnt actually dead, that revises my opinion on the episode, as it suddenly becomes a lot more interesting than I originally thought, if: instead of a rushed kill, it was actually a set up for future internal struggles.

Also, Jokos monologue wasnt that of a villain trying to get his last word in as he dies, it was that of a villain gloating after you failed (which we would have, if aurene didnt show up out of nowhere and eat him)

@OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:Joko is dead. His story is done. I wish they hadn't done it so early, but any thoughts of him being alive inside Aurene or any theories would actually be worse writing than the situation currently presented. His whole monologue was a stereotypical villain getting in his final lines before his death since he will not get to utter more. There is literally no logic in him being still alive in any other way when it would be simpler and make much more sense just not to have killed him off.

Joko's involvement in Guild Wars done with, with possibly some lore mopping up, but even that might be too late now.

Yes it was that of a villain gloating, but the use of that style of monologue in the way it was presented is a fairly well used and classic technique given to a villain who is then suddenly killed off. It pretty much telegraphed the attack for those who have seen it used many times before.

To rephrase, since I admit to being unclear, he didn't knowingly pontificate to get the last word in, but his whole monologue was written for that exact reason - the writers knew he wasn't getting another chance

@OtakuModeEngage.8679 said:Okay, so Joko cant die right? After you kill him, he comes back to life... but wait, aurene ate his body... so what if, and granted, this is a stretch here, but what if Joko is alive inside of Aurene, sort of like how the Nine-Tail-Fox demon is alive inside Naruto. This opens so many possibilities!

And you say Joko is dead, but for an undying lich, dead isnt simply dead.

She did more than just eat his body. She ate, and unbound, his magic. The magic that made him an immortal lich. The magic that bound his soul to his body despite his body's failing. The magic that made him undead and more than undead.

And that's the more important thing. That immediate flash of light that occurs when she first bites into Joko at the very end of the cinematic is when she's chowing on Joko's magic. At that moment, when that blue flash of magic occurs, Joko ceases to move. And Aurene begins eating Joko one mouthful at a time.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"OtakuModeEngage.8679" said:Okay, so Joko cant die right? After you kill him, he comes back to life... but wait, aurene ate his body... so what if, and granted, this is a stretch here, but what if Joko is alive inside of Aurene, sort of like how the Nine-Tail-Fox demon is alive inside Naruto. This opens so many possibilities!

And you say Joko is dead, but for an undying lich, dead isnt simply dead.

...and then collapses on the floor. I had a similar reaction the first (and last) time I tried shark steaks. Some meals are not healthy for anybody, even magic-absorbing young dragons. I don't think we've seen the last of sai Joko.

Also:

"That is not dead which can eternal lie."

Omg yes! Being Joko's buddy would be SO COOL! I want him to be forced to help me out and not be happy about it! :D

@"Tanith.5264" said:...and then collapses on the floor. I had a similar reaction the first (and last) time I tried shark steaks. Some meals are not healthy for anybody, even magic-absorbing young dragons. I don't think we've seen the last of sai Joko.

Also:

"That is not dead which can eternal lie."

She did just eat 500 year old rotten meat... Can you really expect her to not get food poisoning from that?

Point is, Joko ceases movement at the moment of that first bite, where a flash of magic occurs. Magic is what made him immortal, and Aurene unbound/ate that magic.

That Lovecraftian line is irrelevant here, because not only is it an incomplete quoting (original is: “That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die”), refers to how the Old Ones are beyond the concept of time. Joko is not beyond the concept of time, and he is not eternal despite his propaganda. His immortality exists solely due to the magic that permanently bounds his soul to his body and heals his body. That line more accurately portrays the Elder Dragons (who were, in fact, partially inspired by eldritch entities such as the Lovecraftian Old Ones).

No magic = no immortality.

Simple as that.

His death was poorly timed to fit a cliche'd stereotypical comedic second-rate villain's death, and was done far too soon in the plot to make all that build up worthwhile, but he is dead regardless.

That's why I'm having a hard time accepting his "death", Konig. I agree that the amount of time and work that went into the buildup of Joko makes no sense if he's just gonna be tossed aside like that.

More importantly though...we need a Big Bad if we're gonna continue as Tyrian heroes. We're not supposed to kill any more of the dragons (even Joko had to point that out), or we doom Tyria. We can't take on any more gods, they're gone. And if Joko's gone too...who does that leave?

Also, I didn't trot out the Lovecraft line for Joko. He's certainly not Great Old One material. However, he did something very interesting during that final sequence I haven't seen anyone comment on yet.

@"Tanith.5264" said:That's why I'm having a hard time accepting his "death", Konig. I agree that the amount of time and work that went into the buildup of Joko makes no sense if he's just gonna be tossed aside like that.

More importantly though...we need a Big Bad if we're gonna continue as Tyrian heroes. We're not supposed to kill any more of the dragons (even Joko had to point that out), or we doom Tyria. We can't take on any more gods, they're gone. And if Joko's gone too...who does that leave?

Also, I didn't trot out the Lovecraft line for Joko. He's certainly not Great Old One material. However, he did something very interesting during that final sequence I haven't seen anyone comment on yet.

Which was?

@"Tanith.5264" said:That's why I'm having a hard time accepting his "death", Konig. I agree that the amount of time and work that went into the buildup of Joko makes no sense if he's just gonna be tossed aside like that.

More importantly though...we need a Big Bad if we're gonna continue as Tyrian heroes. We're not supposed to kill any more of the dragons (even Joko had to point that out), or we doom Tyria. We can't take on any more gods, they're gone. And if Joko's gone too...who does that leave?

Also, I didn't trot out the Lovecraft line for Joko. He's certainly not Great Old One material. However, he did something very interesting during that final sequence I haven't seen anyone comment on yet.We can very much kill the other dragons so long as we find suitable replacements for them as per Glint's plan.

And there are plenty of other smaller enemies to fight along the way-Inquest-Flame Legion-Nightmare Court-Sons of Svanir-The Dragon Empire of Cantha-Humans from the two unknown lands they settled

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tanith.5264" said:That's why I'm having a hard time accepting his "death", Konig. I agree that the amount of time and work that went into the buildup of Joko makes no sense if he's just gonna be tossed aside like that.

More importantly though...we need a Big Bad if we're gonna continue as Tyrian heroes. We're not supposed to kill any more of the dragons (even Joko had to point that out), or we doom Tyria. We can't take on any more gods, they're gone. And if Joko's gone too...who does that leave?

Also, I didn't trot out the Lovecraft line for Joko. He's certainly not Great Old One material. However, he did something very interesting during that final sequence I haven't seen anyone comment on yet.We can very much kill the other dragons so long as we find suitable replacements for them as per Glint's plan.

And let’s not forget the literally endless potential to make stuff up we’ve never heard of. The actual world of tyria is WAY bigger than the game map, and we know nothing about lots of it. Even the new lands right to the east are unknown

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tanith.5264" said:That's why I'm having a hard time accepting his "death", Konig. I agree that the amount of time and work that went into the buildup of Joko makes no sense if he's just gonna be tossed aside like that.

More importantly though...we need a Big Bad if we're gonna continue as Tyrian heroes. We're not supposed to kill any more of the dragons (even Joko had to point that out), or we doom Tyria. We can't take on any more gods, they're gone. And if Joko's gone too...who does that leave?

Also, I didn't trot out the Lovecraft line for Joko. He's certainly not Great Old One material. However, he did something very interesting during that final sequence I haven't seen anyone comment on yet.We can very much kill the other dragons so long as we find suitable replacements for them as per Glint's plan.

...............................

Aren't you constantly claiming that those very groups (at least the first four) have no strong standing as plot villains anymore? And now you're saying they are?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Aren't you constantly claiming that those very groups (at least the first four) have no strong standing as plot villains anymore? And now you're saying they are?Yes, that doesn't mean Anet wont use them in the future despite it, and mcguffin some reason as to why they are important now.

Not sure about possesed Aurene, but Canach does say that Aurene got more agressive since she ate Balthazar magic...so she will probably absorb some part of Joko personality to

@Fenom.9457 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tanith.5264" said:That's why I'm having a hard time accepting his "death", Konig. I agree that the amount of time and work that went into the buildup of Joko makes no sense if he's just gonna be tossed aside like that.

More importantly though...we need a Big Bad if we're gonna continue as Tyrian heroes. We're not supposed to kill any more of the dragons (even Joko had to point that out), or we doom Tyria. We can't take on any more gods, they're gone. And if Joko's gone too...who does that leave?

Also, I didn't trot out the Lovecraft line for Joko. He's certainly not Great Old One material. However, he did something very interesting during that final sequence I haven't seen anyone comment on yet.We can very much kill the other dragons so long as we find suitable replacements for them as per Glint's plan.

Guess we can scratch the Flame Legion from the list, with Gaheron gone for good and with the death of the Tribunes, dont think they will recover...same could be said about the Nightmare Court...i know that they are still around, since during Dragon Stand you have one with you during the final battle, but are they still evil?

@Randulf.7614 said:Joko is dead. His story is done. I wish they hadn't done it so early, but any thoughts of him being alive inside Aurene or any theories would actually be worse writing than the situation currently presented. His whole monologue was a stereotypical villain getting in his final lines before his death since he will not get to utter more. There is literally no logic in him being still alive in any other way when it would be simpler and make much more sense just not to have killed him off.

Joko's involvement in Guild Wars done with, with possibly some lore mopping up, but even that might be too late now.

This.

I thought it seemed quite clear especially with the 2-3 flashes of magic shown while Aureen was eating him.

The next 3 episodes will likely be dedicated to resolving some outstanding issues (no one has actually approached the player character about how she HAS killed 2 elder dragons which as we know by now is a big nono) and then setting up the next story arc for expansion 3. Rehashing Joko makes no sense at this point.

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Aren't you constantly claiming that those very groups (at least the first four) have no strong standing as plot villains anymore? And now you're saying they are?Yes, that doesn't mean Anet wont use them in the future despite it, and mcguffin some reason as to why they are important now.

Well, of course. And if it's done right, it'll hold up. Some Inquest leader who learned too much, a Svanir shaman who learns that the Commander is personally responsible for sending Jormag off to nappy time too early--lots of ways it could work.

This is something I've been saying to my guildmates. If you don't have a good villain, you don't have a good story. That's why I got so excited when I saw the trailer for episode 3...it looked like they were building Joko up to the same level as the Joker in the original Batman film, and I loved it.

And now...this. For this to be the end of the road for Joko makes no sense to me. But there's a couple of aspects of that last cutscene that struck me as odd (For example, Aurene tends to blast first and ask questions afterwards...that's the first time I've seen her tackle and start chomping). So we'll just have to wait and see.

But I don't think we've seen the last of sai Joko, as I said yesterday. :)

@Fenom.9457 said:

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Tanith.5264" said:That's why I'm having a hard time accepting his "death", Konig. I agree that the amount of time and work that went into the buildup of Joko makes no sense if he's just gonna be tossed aside like that.

More importantly though...we need a Big Bad if we're gonna continue as Tyrian heroes. We're not supposed to kill any more of the dragons (even Joko had to point that out), or we doom Tyria. We can't take on any more gods, they're gone. And if Joko's gone too...who does that leave?

Also, I didn't trot out the Lovecraft line for Joko. He's certainly not Great Old One material. However, he did something very interesting during that final sequence I haven't seen anyone comment on yet.We can very much kill the other dragons so long as we find suitable replacements for them as per Glint's plan.

Anet has shown through and through in all the years since the release of GW2, that they either have no intention to, or no capacity/time, nor do they seem to care, about developing fully new characters (that have no relation whatsoever to GW1) to come up against the commander. I'm not sure if they like to think that Lore continuity is just rehashing the lore from GW1 while botching it at the same time, or if they think it would be even worse if they tried to develop completely new threats without nodding back to GW1 (not sure why they think that since the Zhaitan story was marvelous if only the last conflict was a letdown).

What they did present to us so far in the matter of originality was self-contrived and was left completely absent from development to rot (Swampland, Cliffside, Malyck's tree, the nightmare court, the Exalted in Elona, etc.).

@"Felipe.1807" said:Guess we can scratch the Flame Legion from the list, with Gaheron gone for good and with the death of the Tribunes, dont think they will recover...same could be said about the Nightmare Court...i know that they are still around, since during Dragon Stand you have one with you during the final battle, but are they still evil?

We only killed two Flame Legion Tribunes IIRC (as well as two other high ranking officers and the Hierophant died like a mook in the story dungeon), but we know enough of them survived as after the Molten Alliance failed, the Flame Legion who joined the MA had been exiled by the rest and that's why they kept working for Scarlet. So we know the MA were not the majority of the Flame Legion (otherwise they wouldn't have the power to exile them).

According to Vivika Venomspit, Iron Legion has six tribunes, and this is likely close for the Ash and Blood too, so it likely would be fore Flame too. That would mean four Tribunes survived the events of the core game. Most likely, the MA were led by one tribune (whoever led the Flame Legion of the MA is still out there btw), so that would leave four tribunes. And Gaheron's personal warband, which likely includes siblings eager to take title of Imperator.

@Cyninja.2954 said:The next 3 episodes will likely be dedicated to resolving some outstanding issues (no one has actually approached the player character about how she HAS killed 2 elder dragons which as we know by now is a big nono) and then setting up the next story arc for expansion 3. Rehashing Joko makes no sense at this point.Though we players know it is a 'big nono' by now, that knowledge has never actually spread as far as we know. It's remained within Dragon's Watch's circle, and only the Exalted and Joko are known to have known this fact outside of DW.

So I'd be more expecting a subplot trying to convince people not to kill Elder Dragons, rather than some repercussions for killing them.

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Anet has shown through and through in all the years since the release of GW2, that they either have no intention to, or no capacity/time, nor do they seem to care, about developing fully new characters (that have no relation whatsoever to GW1) to come up against the commander.

That's exactly what Scarlet was. A villain who came up against the Commander that had no relation to GW1... I mean, beyond seeing the sapling Pale Tree in Eye of the North, but I don't think that counts. And even if you point to her alliances and go "relation!" that ends with the Molten Alliance and krait at most, but even then, the "Flame Legion" didn't exist in name until the first lore releases for GW2 came out, and the krait were about as fleshed out as the grawl were (read: no culture applied at all), while the dredge are completely different than in GW1. So you only get the races being the same. Aetherblade and twisted clockwork are all fully new to GW2.

Same with Mordremoth. Only the location is old.

stretch indeed. i would rather joko get trapped with his old rival king thorn in the underworld.

dead doesn't mean his story has ended tho. i mean glint is still an important character to the story and she's been dead since before the game launched.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:The next 3 episodes will likely be dedicated to resolving some outstanding issues (no one has actually approached the player character about how she HAS killed 2 elder dragons which as we know by now is a big nono) and then setting up the next story arc for expansion 3. Rehashing Joko makes no sense at this point.Though we players know it is a 'big nono' by now, that knowledge has never actually spread as far as we know. It's remained within Dragon's Watch's circle, and only the Exalted and Joko are known to have known this fact outside of DW.

Good point, though news travels eventually. I was assuming with Joko explaining how people so easily believed his fake story of him being responsible for Balthazars demise was a good indicator that this news is slowly spreading. Like rot chipping away at the foundations of the commanders prestige and renown. Even Braham felt the need to comfort the player character.

Not sure if this will become a subplot, but it definitely has some potential to once again disrupt alliances and stir rivalry.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Tanith.5264" said:...and then collapses on the floor. I had a similar reaction the first (and last) time I tried shark steaks. Some meals are not healthy for anybody, even magic-absorbing young dragons. I don't think we've seen the last of sai Joko.

Also:

"That is not dead which can eternal lie."

It’s still possible that because of Aurene’s food poisoning, we could be entering a sick Aurene plot, we may have to look into Joko’s past to find out his source magic to aid her. I would hope this answers some of these questions.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Felipe.1807" said:Guess we can scratch the Flame Legion from the list, with Gaheron gone for good and with the death of the Tribunes, dont think they will recover...same could be said about the Nightmare Court...i know that they are still around, since during Dragon Stand you have one with you during the final battle, but are they still evil?

@Cyninja.2954 said:The next 3 episodes will likely be dedicated to resolving some outstanding issues (no one has actually approached the player character about how she HAS killed 2 elder dragons which as we know by now is a big nono) and then setting up the next story arc for expansion 3. Rehashing Joko makes no sense at this point.Though we players know it is a 'big nono' by now, that knowledge has never actually spread as far as we know. It's remained within Dragon's Watch's circle, and only the Exalted and Joko are known to have known this fact outside of DW.

@"maxwelgm.4315" said:Anet has shown through and through in all the years since the release of GW2, that they either have no intention to, or no capacity/time, nor do they seem to care, about developing fully new characters (that have no relation whatsoever to GW1) to come up against the commander.

Anyone that knows about our fight with balthazar has also probably heard the truth. Also Aurene is a lot more public. People have to suspect that we're now protecting dragons. To think only a couple people know is just not paying attention. Play the domain of Kourna map. Aurene is fighting side by side with troops during the scarab events. There is no way people can't know.