ANet's lack of response to siege troll reports — Guild Wars 2 Forums

ANet's lack of response to siege troll reports

Kunzaito.8169Kunzaito.8169 Member ✭✭✭

A short history lesson: before HoT, siege trolling was a massive problem. Supply in general was a more precious resource and the way upgrades and claiming worked also enabled trolling behavior. TC in particular was plagued with at least two incredibly malignant and persistent long-term trolls. When ANet finally, FINALLY addressed the complaints against those individuals, people in the forums asked what was the best way to get a timely response with this problem in the future.

We received ANet responses here stating that there were GMs actively monitoring the game at all times, and that if we reported the individual in-game for "botting" that the behavior would be investigated and dealt with promptly.

I don't know if that ever was truly the case, but one way or another siege trolling as a persistent art seemed to subside. However, the last couple weeks TC again has been hit with a particularly vicious siege troll. It's the same person on the same account doing it. He drains all the ebg keep and tower supplies building useless siege all over the inside and outside of keeps and hits all the tactivators on cooldown for hours. EVERYONE on the map has reported him each time. I first saw it two weeks ago, and it was during the weekend. I figure, ok, maybe the "24/7" monitoring was a stretch, but they should do something come the weekday when they see the deluge of reports on this individual.

Nope.

He's still here, weeks later, doing the same thing. So I ask ANet: what are we supposed to do when this happens? Is there any way to get attention to this behavior when it happens? Weekends are the most popular WvW time and one player doing this can massively impact the outcome of skirmishes and ruin the play of hundreds of others. But there really is no excuse for it being allowed to continue for multiple weeks.

I get that customer service is short-staffed right now and that has been a problem, and maybe they can't have the resources to have someone monitoring 24/7. But there should be some way to note that, hey, we are getting dozens of reports about one player, maybe we should look into that. If this were a bug where tactivators didn't work and keeps couldn't hold supply anymore that would garner a response, and when this is happening it isn't effectively any different.

So what do we do?

Comments

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You mean it wasn't a mag spy draining all your supplies? Sounds like it's someone really peeved at TC.
    It's the weekend, most of their staff are off.
    The only thing that is an emergency to the games health during that time is any bugs or exploits that deal with their gold/gem store stuff.
    Why would they have someone on 24/7 just to monitor supply trolling, like seriously.
    Report them in mass when you catch them doing it during the weekdays.

    Another derailing post. ^^
    EBG North Keep: One of the village residents will now flee if their home is destroyed!
    || Stealth is a Terribad Mechanic ||

  • Kunzaito.8169Kunzaito.8169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2018
    1. They said in prior years that they had GMs on all the time (not to monitor this specifically, but just watching reports in general). As I said, I have my doubts that was true but that is what they said.

    edit: See this post among others:

    https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/GM-Proheals-is-running-around-WvW/page/1#post4847933

    1. The person has been reported en masse for weeks and nothing has been done, as I stated.
  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You honestly believe they have people watching and reading every report?

  • Kunzaito.8169Kunzaito.8169 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2018

    @Israel.7056 said:
    You honestly believe they have people watching and reading every report?

    I mean... do you even read?

    This is the third time for me saying it:

    1. I'm not sure I believe that, but that is what ANet employees have said here

    2. Even if a review isn't done for every report (which, again, they have said that every report is looked into) shouldn't MANY MANY reports on the same individual in a short time span reach a threshold for review? Otherwise why even have a report option at all if no one looks at them and nothing is done as a result?

    3. The response needs to be fast for this kind of stuff because it's generally done on a disposable account. Unless they're gonna take the extra step to trace and action the main account, the thing that really helps is stopping it in the moment. But even if it's banned a few days later there's some churn time until they get another account into WvW.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kunzaito.8169 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:
    You honestly believe they have people watching and reading every report?

    This is the third time for me saying it:

    >

    1. Even if a review isn't done for every report (which, again, they have said that every report is looked into) shouldn't MANY MANY reports on the same individual in a short time span reach a threshold for review? Otherwise why even have a report option at all if no one looks at them and nothing is done as a result?

    Every report gets looked at, eventually. Mass reporting jumping priority is a trivially exploitable system, so it is almost never enabled: being reported almost always just sets the "has been reported" flag to true, and every report after that is effectively a noop. (Though, eg, the count is usually available when someone comes to it, and multiple categories are usually available too.)

    I don't know that GW2 works that way, but I would expect it, for the same reason many other abuse prevention systems do. The "false mass report" abuse issue isn't specific to a game or anything, but rather, is a technique that abusers try out most everywhere -- it is a symptom of the type of people who do this.

    PS: I'm not saying your reports are abusive. I'm saying that abusive people, eg, get their guild to all report someone for the same thing. They spoiled this for people like you, who do use this legitimately and reasonably.

    1. The response needs to be fast for this kind of stuff because it's generally done on a disposable account. Unless they're gonna take the extra step to trace and action the main account, the thing that really helps is stopping it in the moment. But even if it's banned a few days later there's some churn time until they get another account into WvW.

    Aren't f2p accounts prevented from accessing WvW prior to level 60?

    Honestly, though, I strongly suspect that the problem you face is the same one that we get in a bunch of other cases, and which I don't like, but can understand:

    It is possible to look at this, and decide that someone may be making a stupid decision to, eg, build siege equipment in a useless but not unreasonable location, and so the presumption is that since you can find a non-abuse explanation, you must use the non-abuse explanation for the situation.

    This, of course, plays right into the hands of abusers, who quickly identify what those lines are, and carefully stay just within them as they make life miserable for everyone around them, counting on the fact that they are protected by that assumption of good will and good intent, without looking at supporting evidence or long term behaviour.

  • Kunzaito.8169Kunzaito.8169 Member ✭✭✭

    Aren't f2p accounts prevented from accessing WvW prior to level 60?

    Exp and levels are cheap now; it's not that difficult for someone to level an account to use as a wvw troll. If they're dedicated enough to spend weeks doing nothing but wasting supplies, they can put in a few hours to level. I'm sure they know the exact cheapest and fastest ways to do it. Like I said, though, at least it's a bit of a stumble to keep banning their junk accounts.

    Honestly, though, I strongly suspect that the problem you face is the same one that we get in a bunch of other cases, and which I don't like, but can understand:

    It is possible to look at this, and decide that someone may be making a stupid decision to, eg, build siege equipment in a useless but not unreasonable location, and so the presumption is that since you can find a non-abuse explanation, you must use the non-abuse explanation for the situation.

    This, of course, plays right into the hands of abusers, who quickly identify what those lines are, and carefully stay just within them as they make life miserable for everyone around them, counting on the fact that they are protected by that assumption of good will and good intent, without looking at supporting evidence or long term behaviour.

    I've seen some of those slightly more nuanced trolling behaviors as well, but this isn't that. This guy builds dozens of paper trebs outside the keep, or in the keep against a wall or pillar where they can't be used for anything. He builds rams around the supply hut. He makes sure the objectives stay at 0 supply as long as he's on the map. He pulls all the tacts in all the structures as soon as they are ready. All with people asking him to stop in all chats. There is absolutely no reasonable standard for presuming he is doing anything with good intentions.

    And I think it's BS to use the "reasonable doubt" argument anyway. This isn't a legal trial. The relevant doctrine should be the famous quote around obscenity: "I can't define it but I know it when I see it." It's obvious to anyone the difference between someone new who is just trying to help, and someone who is out to troll.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think the pervading opinion on trolls is the more you feed them, the long t they last.

    As long as this behavior bothers your server, especially openly, the longer it's going to go on.

  • BlueMelody.6398BlueMelody.6398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I think the pervading opinion on trolls is the more you feed them, the long t they last.

    As long as this behavior bothers your server, especially openly, the longer it's going to go on.

    I think you need to draw a line between the kinds of trolls who say offensive things in chat to get a rise out of others, and those who materially inhibit your ability to play the game the way it was meant to be played. Your statement only applies to the former. You can turn the other cheek when someone insults your mother, but it's not "feeding the troll" to report/protest someone who is assaulting you.

    It would be a bigger issue if winning weren't relatively meaningless in wvw, but it still disincentivizes players to play the game when their hard work goes for naught due to the actions of a single individual.

  • BlueMelody.6398BlueMelody.6398 Member ✭✭✭

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Kunzaito.8169 said:
    1. I'm not sure I believe that, but that is what ANet employees have said here

    Lol and you actually believe them?

    1. Even if a review isn't done for every report (which, again, they have said that every report is looked into) shouldn't MANY MANY reports on the same individual in a short time span reach a threshold for review?

    Ideally yes but I'd bet no one is even looking at them.

    Otherwise why even have a report option at all if no one looks at them and nothing is done as a result?

    Because whoever built the game put a report feature in.

    1. The response needs to be fast for this kind of stuff because it's generally done on a disposable account. Unless they're gonna take the extra step to trace and action the main account, the thing that really helps is stopping it in the moment. But even if it's banned a few days later there's some churn time until they get another account into WvW.

    Yeah well good luck with that.

    Seriously, why do you even play the game if you have such utter contempt for the people who create and support it? I certainly wouldn't.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kunzaito.8169 said:

    Honestly, though, I strongly suspect that the problem you face is the same one that we get in a bunch of other cases, and which I don't like, but can understand:

    It is possible to look at this, and decide that someone may be making a stupid decision to, eg, build siege equipment in a useless but not unreasonable location, and so the presumption is that since you can find a non-abuse explanation, you must use the non-abuse explanation for the situation.

    This, of course, plays right into the hands of abusers, who quickly identify what those lines are, and carefully stay just within them as they make life miserable for everyone around them, counting on the fact that they are protected by that assumption of good will and good intent, without looking at supporting evidence or long term behaviour.

    I've seen some of those slightly more nuanced trolling behaviors as well, but this isn't that. This guy builds dozens of paper trebs outside the keep, or in the keep against a wall or pillar where they can't be used for anything. He builds rams around the supply hut. He makes sure the objectives stay at 0 supply as long as he's on the map. He pulls all the tacts in all the structures as soon as they are ready. All with people asking him to stop in all chats. There is absolutely no reasonable standard for presuming he is doing anything with good intentions.

    That definitely sounds actionable, then. I'd certainly expect it to end up with some sort of ban. ANet do have a human review all the reports, eventually, so presumably they will get to it. (I'm not sure if the CS ticket crunch has had flow-on effects on this, though.)

    And I think it's BS to use the "reasonable doubt" argument anyway. This isn't a legal trial. The relevant doctrine should be the famous quote around obscenity: "I can't define it but I know it when I see it." It's obvious to anyone the difference between someone new who is just trying to help, and someone who is out to troll.

    Oh, absolutely, I completely agree with you. I think it is ridiculously easy to determine ill intent like that, and we should absolutely not give any kindness in the form of an assumption of innocence. Instead, moderate the punishment so that breaking the rule on accident is given a gentle, educational punishment, which will be sufficient to stop an innocent player screwing up like that again.

    This wasn't me trying to say this is a good thing. It was me trying to say that I think it is kitten, but unfortunately, I don't rule the world, and people seem to love it a lot. (I presume a non-trivial portion of them are people who also engage in that sort of "just within the bounds of the rules, if strictly interpreted" behaviour, so benefit from that interpretation.)

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlueMelody.6398 said:

    @Israel.7056 said:

    @Kunzaito.8169 said:
    1. I'm not sure I believe that, but that is what ANet employees have said here

    Lol and you actually believe them?

    1. Even if a review isn't done for every report (which, again, they have said that every report is looked into) shouldn't MANY MANY reports on the same individual in a short time span reach a threshold for review?

    Ideally yes but I'd bet no one is even looking at them.

    Otherwise why even have a report option at all if no one looks at them and nothing is done as a result?

    Because whoever built the game put a report feature in.

    1. The response needs to be fast for this kind of stuff because it's generally done on a disposable account. Unless they're gonna take the extra step to trace and action the main account, the thing that really helps is stopping it in the moment. But even if it's banned a few days later there's some churn time until they get another account into WvW.

    Yeah well good luck with that.

    Seriously, why do you even play the game if you have such utter contempt for the people who create and support it? I certainly wouldn't.

    Combat's fun.

  • Strider Pj.2193Strider Pj.2193 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @BlueMelody.6398 said:

    @Strider Pj.2193 said:
    I think the pervading opinion on trolls is the more you feed them, the long t they last.

    As long as this behavior bothers your server, especially openly, the longer it's going to go on.

    I think you need to draw a line between the kinds of trolls who say offensive things in chat to get a rise out of others, and those who materially inhibit your ability to play the game the way it was meant to be played. Your statement only applies to the former. You can turn the other cheek when someone insults your mother, but it's not "feeding the troll" to report/protest someone who is assaulting you.

    It would be a bigger issue if winning weren't relatively meaningless in wvw, but it still disincentivizes players to play the game when their hard work goes for naught due to the actions of a single individual.

    Oh I am in no way suggesting that you shouldn't report it.

    But I can guess that the exasperated team chat complaining about it (not suggesting you,) is only continuing to feed the problem.

    Same thing with the threads that come up about it frequently. Somewhere, they are laughing. And creating the threads, complaining in chat likely only exacerbates the issue.

    Again, not saying people shouldn't report, and in fact it would be good if they did, but anything else may be counter productive.

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