Raids and fractal cms as paid dlc.

Raids and Fractals are the same team working on two different products. Our cadence is currently integrated with Living World episode releases. You'll see the next raid before the next fractal, as that is how we have staggered development.

First of all does this mean that a raid that is practically done will release with the new lw update? Because that depressing. Secondly if its so hard for anet to make raids and cms with a faster pace i would honestly suggest making fractal cms and raids paid dlc. I dont expect anet to rival wow, ff14 and eso in terms of new content as the companies behind those games ask you for money (dlc or flat out sub fees).

So i just wanted to ask is there a chance we could pay anet real money so we can get more raid wings and more fractal cms in 1 year? I stress this again, not paying RL money to get the same content we get rn but more content of a good quality. Other mmos do it so i dont get why its a bad thing if gw2 every was to do this.

This isnt a game wide sub fee, if you pvp or ow pve or wvw or lw you wont have to pay money.

What's anet's stance towards this idea and the other player's stance.

A single fractal or even a raid wing, is no where near enough content to qualify for a paid DLC.And then there's the Pay to Win rethoric, and overall image of the game. People were already throwing "P2W" around, when speaking about Elite specializations and the power creep associated to them in PvP and WvW. Basically saying that Elite Specs were pay to win.Now imagine that knowing that Raids often have exclusive Legendaries (currently a ring). Add to that that people already feel pretty excluded and gated out of Raids as it is, compound that with having to pay for the feature.

Also, lets flip that argument around. I personally feel that PvP and WvW in their current iterations are dead weight and a waste of dev time, doing more to harm the game than good. And that's actually my honest opinion. Balance attempts for PvP (structured or WvW) often bleed into PvE negatively, negatively impacting what is arguably the last healthy portion of the game.So seeing as i feel that it's a waste of resources, i too think that sPvP and/or WvW should be a paid feature. At least then they can pay for themselves, instead of mooching off the money for PvE. Now that doesn't sound like a good idea either, does it? And yet the argument is basically the same.

If it was a high priority they would already be made for free. The issues not that they cannot allocate funds nor that they need more people working on it and do not have them. They just do not consider raids as important as other modes to try and increase content delivery. It is a matter of strategy not cost that you can solve by throwing money on the problem.

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:A single fractal or even a raid wing, is no where near enough content to qualify for a paid DLC.And then there's the Pay to Win rethoric, and overall image of the game. People were already throwing "P2W" around, when speaking about Elite specializations and the power creep associated to them in PvP and WvW. Basically saying that Elite Specs were pay to win.Now imagine that knowing that Raids often have exclusive Legendaries (currently a ring). Add to that that people already feel pretty excluded and gated out of Raids as it is, compound that with having to pay for the feature.

And hows a ring that doesnt make you stronger p2w?

Also, lets flip that argument around. I personally feel that PvP and WvW in their current iterations are dead weight and a waste of dev time, doing more to harm the game than good. And that's actually my honest opinion. Balance attempts for PvP (structured or WvW) often bleed into PvE negatively, negatively impacting what is arguably the last healthy portion of the game.So seeing as i feel that it's a waste of resources, i too think that sPvP and/or WvW should be a paid feature. At least then they can pay for themselves, instead of mooching off the money for PvE. Now that doesn't sound like a good idea either, does it? And yet the argument is basically the same.

No its not because raids and fractals dont mix with the other modes at all. A better arguement would be to pay for better balance overall and since that would actually be game wide it wouldnt work. On the other hand raids and fractal cms are only a part of the pve side of the game and them being paid or not wont affect anyone else.

Aditionally making pvp/wvw balance paid wont change the fact that theres delevoper resources and content being used for pvp content. And having pvp balanced locked wont stop ppl from playing pvp, it will end up with ppl with pve balance playing with ppl with better pvp balance which actually is by definition paying to win.

While I usually support similar ideas, I have to disagree this would work on a MMO.

Work and design schedules and priorities aren't simply reassigned weekly or monthly. Mid to long term organization is required to implement good content.

Now if people were to argue if there should be a move to say a subscription, that I could understand or argue for or against (not saying I'd support or oppose this, simply that it would make more sense from a business perspective). That would be a change which allows for reallocation of assets and developers away from current monetization and towards more game assets and content.

Having irregular or unstable spike revenue won't have that positive kind of effect. What about if people are unsatisfied with the content or the rewards? Suddenly revenue drops and what, you lay off the teams you just hired? It doesn't work.

@Cyninja.2954 said:While I usually support similar ideas, I have to disagree this would work on a MMO.

Eso ties its raids and dungeons from what ik to paid dlc.

Work and design schedules and priorities aren't simply reassigned weekly or monthly. Mid to long term organization is required to implement good content.

Now if people were to argue if there should be a move to say a subscription, that I could understand or argue for or against (not saying I'd support or oppose this, simply that it would make more sense from a business perspective). That would be a change which allows for reallocation of assets and developers away from current monetization and towards more game assets and content.

Having irregular or unstable spike revenue won't have that positive kind of effect. What about if people are unsatisfied with the content or the rewards? Suddenly revenue drops and what, you lay off the teams you just hired? It doesn't work.

Having no revenue from said content tho isnt any better seeing their content delivery. Further more the whole game rn works on an irregular or unstable revenue model, if theres a gemstore update ppl dont like or against of what do they do they lay off teams?

Oh, i'd love that. It would kill any chance of major future raid and fractal cm development, and would necessitate moving some rewards from behind the paid block towards more core content.

Although i'm not sure if that would be what you wanted.

Honestly, i doubt there's enough people that want that type of content badly enough to be willing to pay for it to make that mode sustainable in this model. As it is now, it's mostly funded by people that do not play it (And are ofteh excluded from it for one reason or another).

@Astralporing.1957 said:Oh, i'd love that. It would kill any chance of major future raid and fractal cm development, and would necessitate moving some rewards from behind the paid block towards more core content.

Although i'm not sure if that would be what you wanted.

Honestly, i doubt there's enough people that want that type of content badly enough to be willing to pay for it to make that mode sustainable in this model. As it is now, it's mostly funded by people that do not play it (And are ofteh excluded from it for one reason or another).

About the rewards they moved rewards away from raids in the past... They werent core content tho.

D E L E T E D

Sure why not, better than waiting

Also I would rather pay for content than for rewards (most of the cosmetics in the gemstore would be perfect ingame rewards)

@Malediktus.9250 said:Sure why not, better than waiting

Also I would rather pay for content than for rewards (most of the cosmetics in the gemstore would be perfect ingame rewards)

Id prefer if we didnt get free lw updates they way they are now and instead we paid money for actual dlc that has a good lvl of polish and content along with it.

And that came with a fractal cm or raid or something.

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:A single fractal or even a raid wing, is no where near enough content to qualify for a paid DLC.And then there's the Pay to Win rethoric, and overall image of the game. People were already throwing "P2W" around, when speaking about Elite specializations and the power creep associated to them in PvP and WvW. Basically saying that Elite Specs were pay to win.Now imagine that knowing that Raids often have exclusive Legendaries (currently a ring). Add to that that people already feel pretty excluded and gated out of Raids as it is, compound that with having to pay for the feature.

You know when I read your comments I agree with you especially on this one.

Also, lets flip that argument around. I personally feel that PvP and WvW in their current iterations are dead weight and a waste of dev time, doing more to harm the game than good. And that's actually my honest opinion. Balance attempts for PvP (structured or WvW) often bleed into PvE negatively, negatively impacting what is arguably the last healthy portion of the game.So seeing as i feel that it's a waste of resources, i too think that sPvP and/or WvW should be a paid feature. At least then they can pay for themselves, instead of mooching off the money for PvE. Now that doesn't sound like a good idea either, does it? And yet the argument is basically the same.

Now this is where you went overboard. If anything, wvw retains more ppl because of the competitive nature and unpredictability unlike a theme park pve where the content is limited and once you have used that up, people gets bored and leave. Hence:@Malediktus.9250 said:

Sure why not, better than waiting

The issue is wvw gets the least attention by devs that's why it's so stale right now.

@zealex.9410 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:While I usually support similar ideas, I have to disagree this would work on a MMO.

Eso ties its raids and dungeons from what ik to paid dlc.ESO DLCs are more like living story here, not single raids or challenge modes.@Astralporing.1957 said:Oh, i'd love that. It would kill any chance of major future raid and fractal cm development, and would necessitate moving some rewards from behind the paid block towards more core content.

Same for WvW and PvP. So just remove everything other than open world? Or is it again your hate against PvE content you don't like?

I would gladly pay for better ls episodes, better metas, better OW stuff. Stuff that add replayability

Stupid idea imho.With the current LS some friends of mine had their "coming back for 2 weeks" once again and they still refuse to play instanced content like fracs and raids - completely. We have to accept it: The majority of players isn't even interested in playing fracs or raids. It's highly debatable that a lot of the rest would pay for certain DLCs so it can be enough to support the employment of enough developers (we know that 4-5 wouldn't suffice).Anet isn't even able to ship out proper LS maps anymore. The current release is a poor stereotype of older stuff, the story is a little bit amusing but like always a "one-timer". For me, the new map is a disaster and a lot of the achievement again boring stuff + they make it worse to add a heavy grindy turret game achievement which looks like they were running out of ideas and enthusiasm.

Keep in mind that in LS4 we'll get 3 Raid Wings while LS3 had only 1 Raid Wing. I don't think there is a problem with Raid Wing releases, if anything they are giving us more, not less.

@maddoctor.2738 said:Keep in mind that in LS4 we'll get 3 Raid Wings while LS3 had only 1 Raid Wing. I don't think there is a problem with Raid Wing releases, if anything they are giving us more, not less.

We got 4 Wings during the HoT content cycle. So far we got 1 during the PoF cycle. I dont think we are getting more.Since February 8th, 2017 we got 1 Wing with 2 Bosses and 2 Events. Thats 510 Days. Hall of Chains was released 217 days ago. As far as instanced content goes we got 1 Fractal without a CM in the meantime.

There is a big problem with instanced content releases in general. Not just Raids.

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Keep in mind that in LS4 we'll get 3 Raid Wings while LS3 had only 1 Raid Wing. I don't think there is a problem with Raid Wing releases, if anything they are giving us more, not less.

We got 1 Wing in LS3, the first 3 Wings were developed together with the expansion, they obviously had way more time to create those 3 and they were mostly done by the time Heart of Thorns was out. They had 10 months (depending on when the Raid team was formed) to make those 3 Wings. It's more appropriate to compare what we got afterward, unless we want another 10 month content drought somewhere so they make 3 full Raid Wings in that time.

W3 -> W4: Bastion was released 239 days after W3, and 4 episodes laterW4 -> W5: Hall of Chains was released 293 days after W4, and 3 episodes laterSince W5: we are at 2 episodes (including Long Live the Lich) or 217 days since W4It's still early for a Raid Wing release.

As for Fractals:Out of the Shadows: July 26, 2016Nightmare: November 21, 2016 (118 days) CMShattered Observatory: July 25 2017 (246 days) CM

Twilight Oasis: November 28, 2017 (126 days)Deepstone: June 26, 2018 (210 days)

The Fractal release schedule does look similar if you compare LS3 with LS4.

I dont think we are getting more.The recent developer AMA says otherwise:Next raid is essentially done, and only waiting for late-stage development assets, like VO for exampleandI wish I could give you numbers on cadence, but I will say that the third raid wing for this season is already in early production.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:Keep in mind that in LS4 we'll get 3 Raid Wings while LS3 had only 1 Raid Wing. I don't think there is a problem with Raid Wing releases, if anything they are giving us more, not less.

Talking about content cycle. So now we are at 7 Months. unless they are planing to release 3 Wings in the next 3 months we are getting less raids.

unless we want another 10 month content drought somewhere so they make 3 full Raid Wings in that time.

Its not like we are getting a lot of content right now...

W3 -> W4: Bastion was released 239 days after W3, and 4 episodes laterW4 -> W5: Hall of Chains was released 293 days after W4, and 3 episodes laterSince W5: we are at 2 episodes (including Long Live the Lich) or 217 days since W4It's still early for a Raid Wing release.

Its not.

As for Fractals:Out of the Shadows: July 26, 2016Nightmare: November 21, 2016 (118 days) CMShattered Observatory: July 25 2017 (246 days) CM

Twilight Oasis: November 28, 2017 (126 days)Deepstone: June 26, 2018 (210 days)

The Fractal release schedule does look similar if you compare LS3 with LS4.

They do look similiar. And thats a huge problem. Why is it so hard to release instanced content?

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:Talking about content cycle. So now we are at 7 Months. unless they are planing to release 3 Wings in the next 3 months we are getting less raids.

Another way to compare them (using expansion cycles):Heart of Thorns was released on October 23, 2015, LS3 (and HoT development cycle) ended on July 25, 2017 or 641 days.In 641 days we got 4 Raid Wings and 3 Fractals. 1 Raid Wing every 160 days and 1 Fractal every 214 days, one piece of instanced content every 92 days.

Path of Fire was released on September 22, 2017, the date now is July 3, 2018, or 284 daysIn 284 days we got 1 Raid Wing and 2 new Fractals, 1 Raid Wing every 284 days (running late) BUT 1 Fractal every 142 days (way better than the last cycle), or one piece of instanced content every 95 days, which is very close to the previous cycle (92 days), and we are still not at the mid point.

Edit: I'm not saying that we are getting a satisfying amount of instanced content, because we do not. However, in LS4 we are getting as much instanced content as we got in LS3. Was the LS3 release schedule enough? Probably not for many players, but I think that's the amount we'll be getting in the future so better get used to it.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:Talking about content cycle. So now we are at 7 Months. unless they are planing to release 3 Wings in the next 3 months we are getting less raids.

Yeah, raids are running really late. I agree that fractals are released more frequent (Doesnt help that im salty about the deepstone release), but 142 days per fractal is not an acceptable pace imo.

@"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:Yeah, raids are running really late. I agree that fractals are released more frequent (Doesnt help that im salty about the deepstone release), but 142 days per fractal is not an acceptable pace imo.

Well acceptable or not, the very best we'll ever see is a Fractal every 120 days and it won't go lower than that. The "fastest" we've seen is an episode in 2 months, or 60 days, and since we get 1 fractal every 2 episodes, it's easy to see that 1 Fractal every 120 days is the absolute best we'll see. Now add a few delays here and there and this number will only get higher, but 120 is the absolute limit. And I don't think that will ever drop lower.

Fact is 300 days for two raid bosses is fucking ridiculous. Compare this to the competition, they release one full raid every 3-5 months with like 6-10 bosses.

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:Talking about content cycle. So now we are at 7 Months. unless they are planing to release 3 Wings in the next 3 months we are getting less raids.

If we compare it to dungeon releases we can claim we are flooded with content.

@zealex.9410 said:

Raids and Fractals are the same team working on two different products. Our cadence is currently integrated with Living World episode releases. You'll see the next raid before the next fractal, as that is how we have staggered development.

First of all does this mean that a raid that is practically done will release with the new lw update? Because that depressing. Secondly if its so hard for anet to make raids and cms with a faster pace i would honestly suggest making fractal cms and raids paid dlc. I dont expect anet to rival wow, ff14 and eso in terms of new content as the companies behind those games ask you for money (dlc or flat out sub fees).

So i just wanted to ask is there a chance we could pay anet real money so we can get more raid wings and more fractal cms in 1 year? I stress this again, not paying RL money to get the same content we get rn but more content of a good quality. Other mmos do it so i dont get why its a bad thing if gw2 every was to do this.

This isnt a game wide sub fee, if you pvp or ow pve or wvw or lw you wont have to pay money.

What's anet's stance towards this idea and the other player's stance.

Although I agree with you that it would be nice to have more fractal/raid content than we currently have released, I cannot back the change to the pricing model which you've suggested. Locking non-cosmetic content behind extra payments is not something which I would want to see more of.The current model has 2 main tiers to this - expansions and LWS. Expansions are pay only, and this I feel is fair given the sheer volume of content added. LW seasons are free for players who are there for the release, and cost a very small amount for those who had missed them. In addition, the LW seasons can be bought with gems which in turn can be bought with ingame gold and as far as I recall, its around 200-300g for an entire season which is a very reasonable price..Further splitting content would be like adding mini DLC packets and putting players on different levels of access based on what they can afford and I feel like this is not in line with what GW2 is about.