EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards - Page 10 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

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  • You know that feeling when the time it takes you to write a post is longer than the time it takes for the whole issue to blow over? Yeah, I have that feeling right now.

    I suppose the lesson of the day is: skim moar.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    Ho boy, here we go.

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).

    Except there are reasons cited which include harassment, but whatever

    But I'll reiterate that it isn't hate. Disagreement isn't hate. Criticism isn't hate. Sensitive people now a days will associate all of those things (disagreement and criticism) as harassment or conflate something like trolling as harassment while participating in the very same type of actions. Just slapping a blanket term of harassment doesn't make reality change it to hate. And half those articles are talking about lack of representation which, again, isn't harassment.

    This is a discussion about the gaming industry, I tried to focus it as much as possible on the gaming industry. There's a whole discussion to be had about the nature of gender roles and how they've forced stigmas upon people who diverge away from their 'decided upon by society' roles, which includes men who go into nursing. There's an extremely large and in depth debate to be had about how patriarchies have affected society and how it's ended up harming everyone, there isn't a single person who hasn't been negatively affected by the patriarchy but some like the massive benefits it grants them for staying within the confines of their gender roles.

    I wouldn't argue that patriarchies are harmful without context. Compared to the possible replacements, it is the most easily manageable community unit.

    This single handedly convinced me continuing a conversation with you is warrantless, and is the reason why I've kept my responses short.

    Well now I'm curious. What about what I've said convinced you if that? I'm pretty open to discussion and find I usually take a contrarian stance for the sake of discussion.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

    Well I'm sorry if your woman confidence keeps you at the back of the class. You'll just have to leave those people who have the "special insight" to lead the charge regardless of if you agree with them or not. Things don't get done by just letting the individuals that want to make excuses lead.

    Oh, sugarplum, so many things wrong in so few words, including my gender, calling the most basic possible suggestion "special insight", and that I am somehow "just making excuses" instead of, y'know, also commenting here.

    Just out of interest, though, how many people who have worked one year in MMO story design, let alone ten, do you think would have considered the question "could we use a branching narrative to give players more agency within our story"?

    I didn't assume your gender, I said you have woman confidence, which is an obvious sexist jab you seem to still get caught by.

    And if I'm being brutally honest, writing a story is damned easy especially if we're talking about the context of a game (and more specifically, GW2). I know people who could do twice as good at writing a better story and I bet wooden potatoes could do 10x better than that. Having 10 years experience writing a game story is akin to 10 years writing fanfics. It's not equivalent but it's nothing to brag about.

  • Balsa.3951Balsa.3951 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Nice bait.

    @Balsa.3951 said:
    The internet mob here is embarrassing.

    Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

    How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

    Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

    Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

    Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)
    so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

    Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

    Well I'm sorry if your woman confidence keeps you at the back of the class. You'll just have to leave those people who have the "special insight" to lead the charge regardless of if you agree with them or not. Things don't get done by just letting the individuals that want to make excuses lead.

    Oh, sugarplum, so many things wrong in so few words, including my gender, calling the most basic possible suggestion "special insight", and that I am somehow "just making excuses" instead of, y'know, also commenting here.

    Just out of interest, though, how many people who have worked one year in MMO story design, let alone ten, do you think would have considered the question "could we use a branching narrative to give players more agency within our story"?

    I didn't assume your gender, I said you have woman confidence, which is an obvious sexist jab you seem to still get caught by.

    And if I'm being brutally honest, writing a story is damned easy especially if we're talking about the context of a game (and more specifically, GW2). I know people who could do twice as good at writing a better story and I bet wooden potatoes could do 10x better than that. Having 10 years experience writing a game story is akin to 10 years writing fanfics. It's not equivalent but it's nothing to brag about.

    I'm a writer myself and I have to agree with this. Writing is unlike other crafts. Drawing gets better with practice. Writing does also get better with practice, but you can still be extremely poor at conveying a message or you are really good at conveying a message but poor at creating a scenario around it. It's a tricky path and most of the time you only ever get good at one of them. Depending on the other circumstances maybe only one is ever required of you so it's not apparent.

    But in the end it is very relative and not necessarily indicative of skill or even experience,.

    Also gotta say it's surreal to see all the things that happened in a single day. I think I gained about 300 upvotes today (humble brag Kappa) which I noticed when checking my profie as around 7 different "warning, your message has been removed" popped up from comments i replied to that were removed. I wonder if anything I said was a little too harsh and will get me infracted as well, but I don't regret anything I've said or done today.

    Bite me.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Nice bait.

    @Balsa.3951 said:
    The internet mob here is embarrassing.

    Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

    How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

    Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

    Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

    Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)
    so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

    Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

    500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

    The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

    Bite me.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:
    [quoted Thomas Sowell]

    I don't even have to read the rest to thumbs this post up.

    And thanks for breaking down those articles. I'm on my phone and that just isn't going to happen on my end.

  • Balsa.3951Balsa.3951 Member ✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Nice bait.

    @Balsa.3951 said:
    The internet mob here is embarrassing.

    Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

    How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

    Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

    Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

    Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)
    so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

    Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

    500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

    The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

    U don't think is sad someone lost his job bcs of a tweet? I say go outside bcs her words didn't changed ur or other peoples world it's all in ur head who starts to believe that what is said on the internet is attacking u.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Nice bait.

    @Balsa.3951 said:
    The internet mob here is embarrassing.

    Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

    How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

    Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

    Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

    Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)
    so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

    Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

    500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

    The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

    U don't think is sad someone lost his job bcs of a tweet? I say go outside bcs her words didn't changed ur or other peoples world it's all in ur head who starts to believe that what is said on the internet is attacking u.

    I've said it a dozen times by now but I don't agree with the firing. I am not particularly sad about it either though. It's just to be expected when you misbehave like that. And again, I am repeating myself because I can't expect you to read all my comments on this previously as they are buried among hundreds: It's not about the offense she might have caused, it's the behaviour as a whole that the community as a whole disagreed with that caused this entire thing to explode. Offense is never given, it is always taken and I haven't taken any offense to what was said. I can find something unacceptable and disgusting even if it doesn't concern me directly. It's simply telling of her character that this wasn't the first time and we do not want that in our community.

    Bite me.

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    So how many people got suddenly hit by severe warnings because of this?

  • Gorden.5483Gorden.5483 Member ✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    Don't want to really start Social Justice kitten here, but Wage gap is a myth. Bad a poorly thought one.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#52642ece2596

    Loch Ness monster is a myth not the wage gap. Sorry.
    Talk about wage gap myth to non whites in USA.

    https://www.statista.com/topics/3453/wage-inequality-in-the-united-states/

    Can't believe that I'd see the day where somebody unironically argues the wage gap exists in one of my circles.

    There are around 2000 videos on youtube that can give you sources, that can explain you how this misconception was born. It has been proven time and time again that it doesn't exist - especially because it's illegal. Instead it is an "earnings gap" and far less severe than estimated. It also stems from the fact that so many top dogs are men and obviously get paid extraorbitant amounts of money so that the females just pale in comparison, skewing the entire statistic.

    If you take a standard job, same hours and same position you'd see that it doesn't exist or is a result of men being more competitive and haggling their wage more whereas women are historically shown to accept less pay (or because they don't really try to ask for a raise)

    This is flat out wrong. All valid statistics and samples indicate that the median male in most jobs make more than the median female. Also, sampling is done based on median and NOT mean to specifically prevent data from being skewed by outliers (high or low). If you do not understanding this then maybe you should not comment on any statistics.

    And a statement like this: "If you take a standard job, same hours and same position you'd see that it doesn't exist or is a result of men being more competitive and haggling their wage more whereas women are historically shown to accept less pay (or because they don't really try to ask for a raise)," supports the gender pay is result of gender inequality. It basically says different genders are not paid based on production but based on their gender.

    First of all, the median does not prevent the skewing of data by outliers, it reduces the impact of outliers compared to the mean. The outliers are still part of the data though. Just to get that straight.

    Secondly, if women generally tend to be less aggressive in wage negotiations, that doesn't imply any gender inequality at all. Because this has nothing to do with their gender, it has to do with women being some form of group of human people with different personality traits.
    If you change the word women here to e.g. Jew, Muslim or black people or whatever, that doesn't make this a conversation about inequality based on religion, or skin color.
    In this discussion women is not about their gender, but a generalization of a certain group of people.

    There are also men, that less aggressively negotiate wages and earn less as a result. It's about personality, not the parts between your legs. And women just happen to be different from men in that regard, which should be no surprise to anyone, but in this day and age you may have to make it clear again, that women and men are not the same, no matter how much you want them to be.

    Also depending on the field you work in there may very well be not a single women payed less than a man because tariffs are becoming more and more common, perhaps also because of this problem.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @DeadTreeJig.6714 said:

    @thruine.8510 said:
    Opinion of what though? Her work? Gee, how could that ever be taken the wrong way? At no point did she seem to be stuck and need assistance. Now if he had worded it so it was more of I wish we could have this because then it lead to this no one would have found reason for complaint. But disagreeing and explaining how better it would be if done this way is never ever going to end well. If he had done that, she might have gone into why they can't do that if she thought he lacked the knowledge of the limitations she works within. But it seems the assumption was she was the one lacking knowledge.

    You seem to suggest that it was all his fault, that her reaction was appropriate and reasonable. Was that your intention?

    With her initial reply, yes. What followed I haven't paid that much attention to since this morning. I'm still wanting an answer why all this concerns anyone else not involved. Really, if she wants to go off on someone then let her go. Let her target come back at her. Let it remain between them. Just because people have such a fascination with an argument between two people. Are people so hollow and jealous because she's not reply to them? I don't get it. If two people were arguing in the middle of the street and one of them called the other a sexist pig, people would actually jump in the middle of it to yell at them how dare they? Just because its on the internet doesn't mean its all about you. I wish people would stop trying to make it so. I can't believe someone actually said that now all they can hear is their character speaking that way. Its laughable. I am seriously 100% laughing at how pathetic people are acting in order to take on the hurt feelings of someone else. If these folks she's conversing with are hurt then let them alone. They don't need anyone else being hurt for them. Seriously, he said something, she took offense and all because a bunch of other people had to get their two cents in its blown up. The entitlement attitude is astounding over this. Because you play a game from this company every single comment from an employee is for you to personalize. Well, I'm out of here for the night. I can't wait to read about all the emotional damage tomorrow.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Balsa.3951 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Nice bait.

    @Balsa.3951 said:
    The internet mob here is embarrassing.

    Get over it it's only text u cry babies want someone looses his job because he insults someone? ( u don't even know the full history just a twitter tweet )

    How many of u would keep their job if that standard would be applied to u?

    Hope ante keeps cool and ignores those kitten here.

    Except that she has a history of these types of interaction and it happening once is still not an excuse. Only very few people are asking for her to lose her job and those people are wrong. You're missing the point of the thread. Don't create a strawman like that.

    Only a few here want she looses her job..... ( embarrassing again)
    so what u want 10 lashes or should she write a letter and apologize to u?

    Look out of the window, take a walk u really seems to need it

    500 people on reddit and forums combined directly asking for her to be fired vs 4000 people just voicing their opinion and saying they are against her behaviour.

    The fact she/they did end up getting fired has nothing to do with the people asking for it. Why are you telling me to go outside for saying it how it is? lol

    U don't think is sad someone lost his job bcs of a tweet? I say go outside bcs her words didn't changed ur or other peoples world it's all in ur head who starts to believe that what is said on the internet is attacking u.

    It is sad. However It's also sad for all the other employees that were affected by this by proxy.
    Most companies won't have a problem with your political views are as long as you don't involve the company directly. Sadly here this is what happened.

    But yes, it's a sad day. Nobody should be happy it happened.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    Alright!! I just heard the news. Where's that joy, forum? You must be so happy. Should we start a new topic about how fulfilled and satisfying life has become for some of us or is this one going to keep going?

  • I think this thread should end, which is why I edited the first post to show that action has been taken. Justice has been done, the company acted. It's time to move back to playing the game, enjoying the content, and putting our money where our mouth is next time there is something we like in the gem store (if we supported ANET terminating the employment of people who didn't respect customers).

  • DeadTreeJig.6714DeadTreeJig.6714 Member ✭✭✭

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @DeadTreeJig.6714 said:

    @thruine.8510 said:
    Opinion of what though? Her work? Gee, how could that ever be taken the wrong way? At no point did she seem to be stuck and need assistance. Now if he had worded it so it was more of I wish we could have this because then it lead to this no one would have found reason for complaint. But disagreeing and explaining how better it would be if done this way is never ever going to end well. If he had done that, she might have gone into why they can't do that if she thought he lacked the knowledge of the limitations she works within. But it seems the assumption was she was the one lacking knowledge.

    You seem to suggest that it was all his fault, that her reaction was appropriate and reasonable. Was that your intention?

    With her initial reply, yes. What followed I haven't paid that much attention to since this morning. I'm still wanting an answer why all this concerns anyone else not involved. Really, if she wants to go off on someone then let her go. Let her target come back at her. Let it remain between them. Just because people have such a fascination with an argument between two people. Are people so hollow and jealous because she's not reply to them? I don't get it. If two people were arguing in the middle of the street and one of them called the other a sexist pig, people would actually jump in the middle of it to yell at them how dare they? Just because its on the internet doesn't mean its all about you. I wish people would stop trying to make it so. I can't believe someone actually said that now all they can hear is their character speaking that way. Its laughable. I am seriously 100% laughing at how pathetic people are acting in order to take on the hurt feelings of someone else. If these folks she's conversing with are hurt then let them alone. They don't need anyone else being hurt for them. Seriously, he said something, she took offense and all because a bunch of other people had to get their two cents in its blown up. The entitlement attitude is astounding over this. Because you play a game from this company every single comment from an employee is for you to personalize. Well, I'm out of here for the night. I can't wait to read about all the emotional damage tomorrow.

    I got my answer in the first five words, didn't bother with the rest. Thanks for the reply though.

    When a man lies he murders some part of the world – Paul Gerhardt
    Just so we’re clear, I’m a solo player – Kirito
    Live, Laugh, Love Kill Zhaitan Mordremoth Balthazar Joko Kralkatorrik my desire for the Skyscale I don't know... – DedTreeJig

  • Ralkuth.1456Ralkuth.1456 Member ✭✭✭

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    People often (pretend to) forget the act of writing something matters. How you bring awareness to, and present information about a certain something is significant.
    I guess I'm talking about "speech acts".

    Player of distinguishing mediocrity, carrying enemy team since 2012
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  • Klowdy.3126Klowdy.3126 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd like to keep this thread up top, since there are about 10 closed threads on the matter on the front page right now. Bump because it is annoying how things get pushed aside on these forums.

  • Miss Lana.5276Miss Lana.5276 Member ✭✭✭

    Honestly I've felt for a long time - especially with what I feel to be "forced positivity" on the forums - that we're unable to voice our honest opinion on these things without harsh repercussions, or voicing opposing points to views that are held by a wide number of members, especially in this community. I don't feel like a welcomed part of the community, and haven't for a long time, and that's mainly because of my political views, and how they differ drastically to what the vocal majority say here.

    Even as I write this I'm concerned that how I'm saying what I'm saying may end up with this comment removed for being hateful or attacking in nature, when that is not my intent in the slightest. Recently I'd had a post wrongly removed because I criticised the writing. There was no personal attack, no swearing, and it was found by Gaile to be a comment that was fine in the context of the thread it was in.

    Because of things like this that happen all the time, my biggest concern for this company - and the game as a whole - is that they haven't been listening to constructive criticism, and taking it as such, instead of labeling it as "negativity" and ignoring it. Sure, it may be "negative", but there's no way a company or a product will improve without feedback, especially "negative" feedback regarding flaws and weaknesses.

    I think that people are completely blurring the lines between criticism and attacks. They are completely different things, and they need to be treated as such. Not only that, but if you are developing a game - and this may be the line that I cross - you cannot take every criticism as a personal attack. Sure, there are things in the game that I dislike, but saying that I dislike the writing does NOT mean that I dislike the writers. That is such a leap that I can't even comprehend why someone would make it.

    Disagreement =/= "negativity"
    Criticism =/= "hate"

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I found the foundation of the problem...or at least I hope so, and if I'm correct this is a cultural issue. So it appears Deroir is European, which would mean English was their second language(unless they're from the UK, but our languages still differ enough to cause problems), if that is the case, then they wouldn't have caught on to the Twitter post being a statement of facts that was not open to discussion as the context of JP's post was. Yes, she posted it on a public social media platform, but that doesn't mean everything posted in public is open to discussion, no matter how much the rest of you think so...you need to understand the CONTEXT of the post, how it was written to understand that, but just like common sense(which does not exist in the vast majority of people), context is beyond many.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • @Zaklex.6308 said:
    I found the foundation of the problem...or at least I hope so, and if I'm correct this is a cultural issue. So it appears Deroir is European, which would mean English was their second language(unless they're from the UK, but our languages still differ enough to cause problems), if that is the case, then they wouldn't have caught on to the Twitter post being a statement of facts that was not open to discussion as the context of JP's post was. Yes, she posted it on a public social media platform, but that doesn't mean everything posted in public is open to discussion, no matter how much the rest of you think so...you need to understand the CONTEXT of the post, how it was written to understand that, but just like common sense(which does not exist in the vast majority of people), context is beyond many.

    If that was the case, a simple "Well, I was just intending to write down my thought process while working with the narrative team in ANet. You should hop in with your ideas and feedback next time we have an AMA or shoot us an email [@feedbackemail.com]."

    That's it. No drama, nothing happens, and you keep your nice job. Seriously it took me 3 seconds to write that and I'm sure she makes a bazillion dollars more than I do and is far more educated (I presume). Culture, as in ethnic differences, have little if nothing to do with the vulgar and vitriolic way this dev attacked Derior.

  • Thoroughly disappointed with ANet and Mike O'Brien. It'd be super nice if maybe you'd have your staff's backs when some ignorant kitten unleashes on social media. Honestly I don't care if Deroir was being intentionally sexist or not, what he was doing was being a massive kittenhole pretending that he had some massive insight into a field he has zero expertise in. Such a shame that Jessica and Peter didn't work for a company that actually valued its employees. I wish them both well and hope they find a home in a more supportive environment.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ConanX.8641 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    I found the foundation of the problem...or at least I hope so, and if I'm correct this is a cultural issue. So it appears Deroir is European, which would mean English was their second language(unless they're from the UK, but our languages still differ enough to cause problems), if that is the case, then they wouldn't have caught on to the Twitter post being a statement of facts that was not open to discussion as the context of JP's post was. Yes, she posted it on a public social media platform, but that doesn't mean everything posted in public is open to discussion, no matter how much the rest of you think so...you need to understand the CONTEXT of the post, how it was written to understand that, but just like common sense(which does not exist in the vast majority of people), context is beyond many.

    If that was the case, a simple "Well, I was just intending to write down my thought process while working with the narrative team in ANet. You should hop in with your ideas and feedback next time we have an AMA or shoot us an email [@feedbackemail.com]."

    That's it. No drama, nothing happens, and you keep your nice job. Seriously it took me 3 seconds to write that and I'm sure she makes a bazillion dollars more than I do and is far more educated (I presume). Culture, as in ethnic differences, have little if nothing to do with the vulgar and vitriolic way this dev attacked Derior.

    Why should you have to tell people that something isn't open for discussion or that they should bring the discussion elsewhere when the tone of the comment/statement is clearly that NO discussion is wanted. Yes, it only takes a few seconds to write those additional lines, but I'm saying if you read something, then you better understand the context it was written in, otherwise don't bother reading if you can't understand context.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • fizzypetal.7936fizzypetal.7936 Member ✭✭✭

    What a sad state of affairs. Freedom of speech - just because you can, doesn't mean you should. And if you do post or say something contentious, ya gotta be prepared for the consequences.

    I've read that JPs career is littered with similarly public incidents and that she did lose a previous job because of said behaviour. One would think ArenaNet did their due diligence before hiring JP, so knew about her social media history.

    I'd like to think that ArenaNet did give her guidance regarding her social media presence. I'd also like to think ArenaNet had a discussion with her after her ill conceived Tweet regarding the death of TotalBiscuit. Personal account or not, the tweet from a well known brand's employee would have been awful for TotalBiscuit's friends and family to have read.

    Another point to consider - in addition to her controversial social media posts, perhaps colleagues found her difficult to work with. If she can tweet such vitriol towards customers, it is easy to surmise that she might have shown her colleagues the same disrespect. Perhaps this latest outburst was the final straw for ArenaNet and it was time to move her on - to restore harmony within the dev team at Anet and attempt to repair the damage done to customer engagement.

    From a purely PR pov, I can see that JP would have been a nightmare. Women like her, who use the gender card too quickly and inappropriately and with such venom attached to it, make it harder for the rest of us women to be treated fairly.

    I don't like to see anyone lose their job - but quite possibly ArenaNet gave her numerous chances...the first one being the moment they hired her.

  • Zushada.6108Zushada.6108 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 8, 2018

    Please read the following with an open mind and open heart. I live in a different country where things work differently. I had refrained from commenting because I am the unpopular opinon. However, I had to post because I think my thoughts actually give perspective.

    There seems to be a trend in corporate North America that is deeply disturbing. It is called the "Corporate Gag Order" and it entails public and private corporations issuing "Social Media policies" that assume they have control over your life when you are not at work. They don't and they shouldn't be dictating what we should be speaking out against and/or what we do in our personal lives. And they shouldn't have control over the commentary of an off-duty developer who was using her own private twitter. Yes, there has to be balance and their can't be illegal or hate related content but when is the corporation found guilty for the beliefs and actions of a staff member who is off duty -- never? How many terrible people have worked in corporations across the world and none of the corporations have been tried and convicted for their employee's personal life. So ask yourself why you think staff are responsible to a corporation when they are off-duty? We must also ask ourselves who has any right to decide how another human lives or speaks and to what platform they use? Was she punchy and irrational? Yes, was it inappropriate? Yes. Did she deserve to get fired? No, not at all.

    All of the people who are happy these two got fired, really need to pause and reflect here. Consider it like this. What if Jessica had posted something about the Christian Bible and someone disagreed and she lashed out. Would you all have been freaking out for a difference of opinion and crummy online etiquette and calling for her dismissal? Or what if she wrote something the gaming community doesn't care about like Led Zepplin lyrics and the same series of events unfolded? Would you react and call for dismissal? Not likely. This was, essentially the modern day public lynching of Jessica Price and I am sorry if people find this expression disrespectful but Anet used the feedback from third party social media (the same media that is available publicly to people who have no clue about this game) and knee jerked her and Peter out the door. This, in my opinion, was highly inappropriate and not reflective of the positive employment environment Anet likes PR to front. At worst, she should have been called into discuss what happened and why she was so deeply frustrated. Perhaps counselling needed to be offered and a direct apology to the person involved -- but she does not owe the community an apology for being herself in her off hours.

    Let me be clear in my thoughts here; the community made this happen and it is the first time I have ever been so utterly dismayed by this game's community. Sure it shows the power of multiple voices, but it most certainly didn't show the power of those voices for good. In an interview she indicated she got what I call "dad shamed" about ruining a good situation. Here is the thing, she didn't. The community and Anet did. The community decided to look at her PERSONAL twitter feed and use every single tweet they could find to make a lynching case against her and Anet bought in to the idea like puppies after a biscuit.

    With regards to Peter Fries; he did NOT deserve to be fired! That was just wrongful dismissal (as they say in my country). Ok perhaps he shouldn't have dawned the beer induced super-hero cape and tried to mitigate a deteriorating situation -- but on the other hand, why can't he? Why does the community and Anet care that he actually spoke the truth respectfully. In my opinion, Anet owes him a thank you for turning the focus off of JP for a while and putting it on someone else. He took the fall for being a good co-worker. He demonstrated what being on a team truly means and in my opinion, he deserved kudos rather than firing.

    The community caused 2 people to lose their livelihoods -- the community took it upon themselves to call for the firing of Jessica without realising the ramifications for their actions. Because of this, two people lost benefits, they will lose savings and they will struggle financially moving forward and Anet did a huge disservice to their community by looking at Peter and saying essentially, "you understand, it's all business and someone has to take the fall."

    So the next time someone wants to post a hate thread about an Anet employee consider the following:

    • Look at the origins of the company and where the founders came from. There examples of when they did not represent their own company all that well in social media. (and I don't mean that rudely, I just mean we all foot in mouth)
    • Consider that there is a human at the other side of the computer and the impact of your reactions is real and will be felt for years.
    • Consider that privacy should be respected and a lot of issues and arguments would be mitigated if someone simply asked "are you just sharing your own thoughts or are you looking for feedback/discussion.
    • As i said on the first thread that got locked -- this wasn't the community's business to get involved in, and it was best left alone. The real discussion is the lack of segregation between personal and corporate communications and corporate policies dictating far too much about personal communications (think church and state here). In this case, it was personal communications that the community made corporate and the outcome has been disastrous for all parties involved.

    Cheers

  • As there is already a thread discussing this subject, we are going to go ahead and close this one. Please feel free to join the current discussion at https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/46258/gw-2-devs-playerbase-twitter-discussion but please be sure to keep your comments constructive and follow the forum guidelines!

This discussion has been closed.
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