EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

1246710

Comments

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @rrusse.7058 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    After all, the game is lacking in quality lately (Kourna was horrible gameplay-wise and ending the story abruptly by abusing a deus ex machina isn't all that great either) and ANet doesn't produce the impression that they actually care (not a single question of importance was answered in the latest AMA).

    I dunno, previous episodes in Season 3 were not amazing either. I know I enjoyed 'A Crack in the Ice' even though so many in the community and on reddit say they felt that was the weakest of all episodes. We don't even know the total head count of devs that specifically worked on this last episode do we? If not then I don't know if it's that fair to say the quality and effort is bad. I don't know how many people they had at their disposal, how much time they had, how much money and so on.

    They said that the teams producing LW-episodes got merged and that's one of the reasons for the delay of E3. So they at least got a lot more internal feedback on their work and ideas. So yeah, team size shouldn't matter, especially not if you consider the horrible implementation of E3.

    Does the game need improvement? Sure, you're never at your best so you might as well try to improve. Has the quality dipped so low that its with dinosaur bones? I don't think we've hit that point and hope we never do.

    The game has some fundamental flaws that they need to finally adress. The problem is that they just don't care - at all. The game is getting stale and a lot of people get bored. A lot of friends - even people who played the game since launch - just don't feel the love anymore. Sure, quality hasn't dropped that significantly low, but the game truly does suffer from "ubification". Content is simply too formulaic lately and fails to impress.

    The most important thing is that we let Arenanet know that we just don't appreciate this sort of behavior. Regardless of stress and whether or not you are on holiday, treating anyone like this is not acceptable.

    Agreed.

  • @rrusse.7058 said:

    @Raizel.8175 said:

    After all, the game is lacking in quality lately (Kourna was horrible gameplay-wise and ending the story abruptly by abusing a deus ex machina isn't all that great either) and ANet doesn't produce the impression that they actually care (not a single question of importance was answered in the latest AMA).

    I dunno, previous episodes in Season 3 were not amazing either. I know I enjoyed 'A Crack in the Ice' even though so many in the community and on reddit say they felt that was the weakest of all episodes. We don't even know the total head count of devs that specifically worked on this last episode do we? If not then I don't know if it's that fair to say the quality and effort is bad. I don't know how many people they had at their disposal, how much time they had, how much money and so on.

    Does the game need improvement? Sure, you're never at your best so you might as well try to improve. Has the quality dipped so low that its with dinosaur bones? I don't think we've hit that point and hope we never do.

    The most important thing is that we let Arenanet know that we just don't appreciate this sort of behavior. Regardless of stress and whether or not you are on holiday, treating anyone like this is not acceptable.

    A Crack in the Ice was awesome. Bitterfrost is one of the prettiest maps, alongside Bloodstone fen. It makes me sad that a lot of the newer maps aren't as visually appealing, maybe 'cause it's assumed that we will go through them on mounts.

    And yes, I hope ANET is listening to player feedback about this issue, though I am not sure how much listening will be able to help them. Honestly, I do feel for the company. I have worked doing marketing/PR type stuff enough in the past to feel for whoever has to deal with this. Luckily, none of my employers ever had to deal with something this big, but we did a case-study about some businesses at my business college who made some pretty bad mess-ups.

  • Dreadshow.9320Dreadshow.9320 Member ✭✭✭

    @rrusse.7058 said:
    @Dreadshow.9320
    Well I don't know if it has to go so far as to reach share holders. I imagine this is going to affect the company as a whole on how social media is handled for sure though. On the idea of an apology, I don't know. Do people even want one now?

    Thing is management will probably won't do anything if share holders don't mention it in a meeting or golf game.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vavume.8065 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    Wanna bet 10k gold thread gets shut down?

    Clever, seeing as they will then shut it down for gambling...

    Where did you come up with that lol? Show me where betting my gold vs someone else's gold is some type of offense...

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    Someone from the public adds a perfectly valid counterpoint. -> Good
    Expert react as if being attacked, adding an unrelated factor through just one word. -> Whatever

    The below poster did a great job of expressing why this is such a problem

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:
    Honestly even if the criticism was sexist... you never... let me repeat that... NEVER treat any customer like that. Even when rude... you just cant do that

    Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree. The real crux of the issue is that an Anet employee started an interesting and sensible discussion, received an equally interesting and sensible response from a well known content creator/customer, and called that customer names/publicly shamed them for "sexism" for daring to make a reply. And then was supported by a second Anet employee.

    Someone actually being attacked and responding in kind is likely to garner support and a lot of "justice served" type posts supporting her, even if it is technically not the right reaction. This isn't the case here, though, and that multiple employees were involved is what's so disturbing.

    I would add that when someone is being publicly shamed for "sexism" on twitter to ten of thousands of followers, the risk for death threats and physical injury is high and very real. Its a major risk to the health of the gw2 community if this became accepted behavior for developers.

    That is precisely why I added the 4th point:
    Community explodes into screams, slaps and rage wedgies. -> What the kitten is wrong with you people?

    If you leave it at "watever", the problem don't escalate without need. Do you think either of those two persons are safer now than in that moment?

  • Gorden.5483Gorden.5483 Member ✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @castlemanic.3198 said:
    1. Female game devs get a lot more hate than male devs. That's just a fact of life

    Can you be sure of that though? There is a difference between female devs getting more hate than male devs and female devs expressing the hate they experience more than male devs do.
    I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just saying I don't know and I think neither do you or anybody for that matter.
    In my personal, very limited experience, I actually see more male devs being criticised in my twitter feed than female devs, but as I said, my personal experience is as limited as anybody else's.
    I'm sure some female devs do get more criticism than some male devs do, but also vice versa. It's a very difficult to generalize problem.

    TL;DR: She reacted as any human being would to a response that was interpreted as the hatred she probably gets on a daily basis (as female game devs get far more online hatred than male game devs). However, I do believe her interpretations were off the mark. While I sympathise with her response, I won't justify it and don't condone it. But we do have to bring a measure of understanding and compassion to the table, especially in cases where it's known for a fact that someone can get a disproportionate amount of online hate.

    See, the problem I have with this argument is, even if she get's criticised on a daily basis it doesn't automatically give her a free ticket to project this hate to anybody she wants.
    It's the basic principle of "don't let your anger out on some innocent bystander".
    Does she constantly get hate and criticism? I don't know, maybe. And if she does she should still stay calm and polite to anyone who has literally nothing to do with the criticism she receives.
    It seems to me, that she generally responds to criticism very poorly. To be honest, nobody likes personal criticism, but when it comes to professional criticism I think almost any criticism is of value. And if whatever criticism she received has already been discussed, either publicly or internally, she can just say so and state she doesn't want to discuss it again.

    Losing your temper this badly and resorting to these kind of schemes to portray yourself in a victim-role shows a profound lack of social skills.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    An unwarranted lashing out like that will enrage some people that weren't invested in these gender politics before. She's perpetuating the cycle of hatred and she should not be excused.

    Not saying she should be excused. I've mentioned multiple times that her actions are unjustified and I do not condone them. And I agree, this is a perpetuation of the cycle of hatred.

    But there also needs to be compassion brought into this, to understand that game devs, and specifically female game devs, get far more hate than most realise, and coming to an understanding that, while the response is inexcusable, that there is a reason that point was reached, and to have the discussion around that. We cannot and should not stand by when the cycle of hatred is perpetuated by anyone, especially when that person is of some importance to the community we're in. We need to call it out. But we also need to be aware of the situation surrounding the outburst too.

    This isn't a one note thing and reducing the complexity of the situation to a singular line does no good to anyone, and only further aggravates and perpetuates the cycle of hatred.

    If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. Veterans can make signatures apparently.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Memoranda.9386 said:
    She's being dragged relentlessly throughout all of social media, which I'm sure in her mind, is going to justify her initial reaction and comments of sexism and, is currently proving her point.

    Not that anyone seems to have an interest in letting this go, which again, is only helping to prove her point from her view of the situation.

    While I agree that she should not be dragged through mud, I do not agree that this should be let go. Simply overlooking toxic behavior does not help to address that behavior and its impact on the victims involved.

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    I think she expressed a sentiment that is quite common among developers. Definitely not all devs think like her, but a big amount do, and anet is definitely not exempt from it. It was definitely bad PR for Anrenanet as a company, but most of the people at the office today must be in complete support to her.
    Anet will do what they have always done in such situation, they will let it die on its own and just go on as usual. Adding to it will just make them look worse one way or another. She's definitely not the first or only one with these opinions at anet, and most likely not the last and so far it has never made people stop spending money on the game.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Haishao.6851 said:
    I think she expressed a sentiment that is quite common among developers. Definitely not all devs think like her, but a big amount do, and anet is definitely not exempt from it.

    Do you mean game devs? Because, as a software developer, I can't think of any dev that feels that way about their users >_>.

    I can imagine maybe game devs get burned out or overworked, though and could lash out.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Keep doing what your doing someone someone. (wink wink)
    There's no chance to lose a community that way, something something. (wink wink)

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ardid.7203 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    Someone from the public adds a perfectly valid counterpoint. -> Good
    Expert react as if being attacked, adding an unrelated factor through just one word. -> Whatever

    The below poster did a great job of expressing why this is such a problem

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:
    Honestly even if the criticism was sexist... you never... let me repeat that... NEVER treat any customer like that. Even when rude... you just cant do that

    Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree. The real crux of the issue is that an Anet employee started an interesting and sensible discussion, received an equally interesting and sensible response from a well known content creator/customer, and called that customer names/publicly shamed them for "sexism" for daring to make a reply. And then was supported by a second Anet employee.

    Someone actually being attacked and responding in kind is likely to garner support and a lot of "justice served" type posts supporting her, even if it is technically not the right reaction. This isn't the case here, though, and that multiple employees were involved is what's so disturbing.

    I would add that when someone is being publicly shamed for "sexism" on twitter to ten of thousands of followers, the risk for death threats and physical injury is high and very real. Its a major risk to the health of the gw2 community if this became accepted behavior for developers.

    That is precisely why I added the 4th point:
    Community explodes into screams, slaps and rage wedgies. -> What the kitten is wrong with you people?

    If you leave it at "watever", the problem don't escalate without need. Do you think either of those two persons are safer now than in that moment?

    Well, the response answers the question of "whats wrong" with everyone. If we simply ignore people who put others into danger of physical harm, and dont call that behavior out, there is no incentive for the person to not do it again in the future.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Ardid.7203 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Ardid.7203 said:
    Someone from the public adds a perfectly valid counterpoint. -> Good
    Expert react as if being attacked, adding an unrelated factor through just one word. -> Whatever

    The below poster did a great job of expressing why this is such a problem

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Zalavaaris.5329 said:
    Honestly even if the criticism was sexist... you never... let me repeat that... NEVER treat any customer like that. Even when rude... you just cant do that

    Maybe, but I'm not sure I agree. The real crux of the issue is that an Anet employee started an interesting and sensible discussion, received an equally interesting and sensible response from a well known content creator/customer, and called that customer names/publicly shamed them for "sexism" for daring to make a reply. And then was supported by a second Anet employee.

    Someone actually being attacked and responding in kind is likely to garner support and a lot of "justice served" type posts supporting her, even if it is technically not the right reaction. This isn't the case here, though, and that multiple employees were involved is what's so disturbing.

    I would add that when someone is being publicly shamed for "sexism" on twitter to ten of thousands of followers, the risk for death threats and physical injury is high and very real. Its a major risk to the health of the gw2 community if this became accepted behavior for developers.

    That is precisely why I added the 4th point:
    Community explodes into screams, slaps and rage wedgies. -> What the kitten is wrong with you people?

    ** If you leave it at "watever", the problem don't escalate without need. **Do you think either of those two persons are safer now than in that moment?

    Well, the response answers the question of "whats wrong" with everyone. If we simply ignore people who put others into danger of physical harm, and dont call that behavior out, there is no incentive for the person to not do it again in the future.

    That's the full point. There is no discussion with Anet. You are shut down if you criticize or hint to criticize them. It has been discussed before . So what ever kinda suits it!

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • Memoranda.9386Memoranda.9386 Member ✭✭✭

    @TheNecrosanct.4028 said:

    @Memoranda.9386 said:
    There is a distinct lack of compassion from a dedicated group of individuals looking to keep pushing this narrative around.

    JP reacted badly, clearly. Everyone understands that.

    What should have happened is not what is happening, in that now 3 topics on these forums, as well a few related topics are currently kicking around the forums, not to mention Reddit and Twitter.

    She's being dragged relentlessly throughout all of social media, which I'm sure in her mind, is going to justify her initial reaction and comments of sexism and, is currently proving her point.

    Not that anyone seems to have an interest in letting this go, which again, is only helping to prove her point from her view of the situation.

    The comments should have been addressed to ArenaNet directly and left at that. Everything else smacks of manufactured outrage to issue "justice" for her verbal slights.

    The fact that something fits your narrative, doesn't mean it's actually true. Besides, a certain male employer has been named several times as well, with the same conclusion drawn from his words as are drawn from hers. Everything gets dragged relentlessly throughout social media these days. You'd have to be born yesterday to not be aware of that. It doesn't mean, though, that all that's being said is invalid. Filter the trolls and focus on the valid arguments. That's how you deal with any discussion forum on the Internet, for years now.

    The reason I use the word "narrative" is because across 7 topics on these forums, the same group of individuals have been posting and reposting the same things. Any dissenting views are immediately slammed with calls of "PC culture gone too far!!!" and "But the Dev disrespect! Think of the children"

    I've already addressed her remarks. Gross over-reaction. Anywhere you go, they are. But in her experience, I'm sure she felt they were justified. And everything that's come after is bolstering the initial reaction.

    All the valid arguments have been made, from what I've read. The fact that after each topic is closed and a new one springs up... Doesn't that make you think, just a little bit, that some people are grinding their axes for JP?

    I'm merely stating that the whole outrage seemed relentlessly pushed and forced, until it actually caught on, justified or not. And now it's a huge thing.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gorden.5483 said:
    Can you be sure of that though? There is a difference between female devs getting more hate than male devs and female devs expressing the hate they experience more than male devs do.
    I'm not saying I disagree, I'm just saying I don't know and I think neither do you or anybody for that matter.
    In my personal, very limited experience, I actually see more male devs being criticised in my twitter feed than female devs, but as I said, my personal experience is as limited as anybody else's.
    I'm sure some female devs do get more criticism than some male devs do, but also vice versa. It's a very difficult to generalize problem.

    I mean, have you seen the hate in response to the primary figure on the new battlefield game being a woman?
    Women in games media has always been a sore point in the industry, and they do factually get more hatred on average than the average male in the games industry.
    It doesn't mean men are immune to hatred or can't get more hatred than a singular female game dev. But the averages really do point towards female devs getting far more hate than male game devs, and women in games media as a whole.

    See, the problem I have with this argument is, even if she get's criticised on a daily basis it doesn't automatically give her a free ticket to project this hate to anybody she wants.
    It's the basic principle of "don't let your anger out on some innocent bystander".
    Does she constantly get hate and criticism? I don't know, maybe. And if she does she should still stay calm and polite to anyone who has literally nothing to do with the criticism she receives.
    It seems to me, that she generally responds to criticism very poorly. To be honest, nobody likes personal criticism, but when it comes to professional criticism I think almost any criticism is of value. And if whatever criticism she received has already been discussed, either publicly or internally, she can just say so and state she doesn't want to discuss it again.

    Losing your temper this badly and resorting to these kind of schemes to portray yourself in a victim-role shows a profound lack of social skills.

    Never said she gets a free ticket. In that quote I mention her response is unjustified and that I do not condone it. What I am saying is that when entering the discussion, we must be aware of all the circumstances surrounding the situation. People reach a limit when they get inundated by online hate, and any response that is perceived as hate after that limit has been reached/exceeded will get a nasty response because the people who throw hate at you will never approach you with civility or kindness.

    Does that mean she can do better? Of course it does. We can always improve, even when we are in the most stressful of situations. But taking the high ground is nowhere near as easy as you make it seem. And there's a world of a difference between hate and criticism. Which I must stress is what she failed to make a distinction of.

    She failed to see the distinction between criticism and hate.

    She perceived criticism as hate. Because there are malicious people online who will use 'genuine' criticism and 'genuine' questions to open up a debate where the person on the receiving end becomes inundated with some of the most passive aggressive to hateful comments and questions they've ever received. These people really do exist, people who will abuse good will in order to exhaust, frustrate and anger their target.

    That does not excuse her. That does not give her a green light to lash out at anyone who says anything negative to her. There's a reason for it, but a reason is not an excuse. A reason only says why something happened. A reason does not replace the need for an apology.

    That's what I'm trying to get at. The situation is far more complicated than a single line or paragraph can state. There's much more going on behind closed doors than simply a misinterpretation of genuine criticism. She DID react badly, in a manner that cannot be excused or condoned. But we have to be aware of the reason behind it before we can have a genuine discussion of the situation.

    I should maybe remove the TL;DR, it's been misinterpreted a couple of times already which is what happens when you TL;DR a complex situation.

    If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate. Veterans can make signatures apparently.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @Raizel.8175 said:
    She should just publicy apologize and get some basic lessons in general human decency, manners and social media.

    I would think she should, but there's a chance they may have told her to stop talking about it entirely. I know I would, if I were her manager. So I wouldn't hold that against her.

    (I haven't looked at her twitter since, so if she's still talking about it disregard what I just said)

  • Haishao.6851Haishao.6851 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Haishao.6851 said:
    I think she expressed a sentiment that is quite common among developers. Definitely not all devs think like her, but a big amount do, and anet is definitely not exempt from it.

    Do you mean game devs? Because, as a software developer, I can't think of any dev that feels that way about their users >_>.

    I can imagine maybe game devs get burned out or overworked, though and could lash out.

    Yes, I meant game developers.
    They receive a lot of love and praise because of the game they work on. It is rarely directed at them as individual, but they take it since it's their work that get praised. It often over inflate their ego and start seeing themselves as overly important. Same thing sometime happens with actors, comedians, musicians or other public figures that receive a lot of praise where they start to despise their fanbase.
    Gamers are also often portrayed as losers living in their parent basement so it reinforce the game dev's sentiment of superiority towards them.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    I am unsure if the dev said what she said on personal on a account or anet company account. If the dev was interacting on behalf of anet, then anet should take action to respond, primarily by apologizing and indicating that this is not anet position as a company. And the dev will most definitely be in violation of anet polices, and may be tereminatad.

    However, if the dev was acting personally, anet is not liable. And while I think the dev will be repremainded, anet does not need to make a public statement. Generally speaking, you should not be making negative public statements regarding customers of your employer.

  • Still lacking any official response, I see. Looks like they are trying to just swipe this under the rug and hope for it to die down.

    Oh did I hurt your precious feelings? My deepest apologies.

  • @Edgy McEdgelord.4790 said:
    Still lacking any official response, I see. Looks like they are trying to just swipe this under the rug and hope for it to die down.

    I haven't given up hope. Yesterday was a holiday. Also these kinds of matters require a lot of internal review and consultation with lawyers and upper management. They have to balance haste of response with making sure they don't face some sort of legal repercussion or do further damage in a hastily worded response. My guess is that there is a lot going on internally that we aren't seeing. I would give it at least another day.

  • Gorden.5483Gorden.5483 Member ✭✭

    @Edgy McEdgelord.4790 said:
    Still lacking any official response, I see. Looks like they are trying to just swipe this under the rug and hope for it to die down.

    Didn't they just start working hours? I'd say give it some time. I hope we get some form of statement within the next few days.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    Oh good lord. Is there ever going to be a chance that fans on the internet can ever not be offended? I think Peter Fries pointed out how he doesn't receive nearly the same amount of "constructive" help as his female co-workers. Just look at the recent Star Wars complaints where while Ryan Johnson gets a lot of criticism so did Daisy Ridley and the young lady who played Rose (chased off social media in fact) while Adam Driver seems to have escaped unscathed (like he would have cared). And I think he is 100% worse in those films than either one of his female co-stars. And this complaint thread is more of the same that people are now chasing this woman all over the internet wanting an apology. If she owes someone an apology its to the one person her reply responded to. Not all the crybabies whom got their feelings hurt reading a devs exchange with another player.

    If you think that any complaints you have about the game will just be filed under Sexism by this developer then go ahead and believe it. Quit in protest. Shake your fist to the heavens at the injustice of it. But if someone wants to think of you as a sexism pig then that is their right. But enough with latching on to some slight made against another person as if you personally have been injured to such a degree you must tell every one everywhere about it. This is just so stupid. I could understand if the one she was responding to was doing all this since that is the only one who may have been injured from the response but everyone else... no one said anything to you and you don't deserve an apology. The player base doesn't deserve an apology. Hard as it is to believe, Fries was right. She didn't ask for the guys opinion. I know its hard to believe but sometimes people aren't interested in player's opinions ever single day in every facet of their lives. And even if they are, if they feel someone is coming across in a sexist way then those are their feelings. Newsflash, people's feelings aren't up for debate.

    What this ensures isn't apology but GW2 discussion with developers will happen even less. But keep it up because its so helpful to everyone. I rarely engage with developers or writers on many of the things I enjoy in this way. If asked, I might say what I like or don't like. I've never offered an opinion on how to improve something. That's for my wallet to discuss. You want money, then figure it out. I'm not telling you how to do your job to entertain me. And we see here that sometimes its not welcomed. I can't imagine telling Stephen King how to make his work just a tab bit scarier. Or Ryan Johnson how a little more understanding of film would improve his film. If I like it, I'll pay money. I'll tell my friends what I like. Maybe talk about it in a forum post. But this trolling of creatives needs to stop. Being a fan doesn't make you an expert at what would or wouldn't work. Just be fans. Besides, I think its far more interesting to understand the hows and whys not how to redo something over and done.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is disappointing, but not surprising, to watch the antagonism and anger directed toward Jessica Price, and ArenaNet in general, at the moment. Given that, I wanted to take the time to say this:

    I stand with Jessica Price. Her behaviour was reasonable, and appropriate, and is entirely within the bounds of appropriate professional and personal behaviour.

    The "constructive criticism" is valuable if, and only if, you accept the underlying assumption that she, and the ANet writers in general, have not considered one of the most basic possible options for handling the players subjective view of character of the lead of the story.

    I have worked in several of the worlds most recognized companies, places where literally everyone you meet has some sort of opinion about what they do, how they do it, and how it could be better. In many cases, this comes with the same underlying assumption: if only the people there had considered this extremely obvious idea, which is either currently, or has previously, been discussed to death, and which has obvious shortfalls -- or which has literally been done, and failed to achieve those results.

    This is even less interesting, or productive, when this has played out in public. Where a decade or more of publicly available information about the debate is available, and where these ideas have been extensively addressed. Where the shortfalls of the proposed magic bullet are well known, and well understood.

    The idea that responding to ideas and "criticism" that would barely make the cut in a first year "introduction to X" university course, because they are so obvious, and so well documented, with a significant investment in education -- when a trivial amount of time with Google would answer them in more detail than we are ever likely to -- is entitlement at work. Thinking that you are owed time, and your ideas are owed serious consideration, despite being the most shallow and obvious ... well, despite what you were told all your life, you are not really a brilliant and unique thinker, creating amazingly radical ideas in every sphere you touch, and that suggestion is concrete proof of that.

    This is no more, and no less, true regardless of the breadth of the discussion. The venue, or the form, or the accessibility of the medium, do not change the obligation to treat you seriously in any way. If you want to have a meaningful discussion, try addressing your commentary at a level that assumes the person you are talking at has the skills, and the abilities, and the knowledge to do their job well. Don't try and explain the basics to them. You won't get a good response, and it doesn't matter if this is Twitter, or a question at a convention, or a professional conference on the subject.

    None of those oblige an expert to spend their time responding to your tedious rendition of the basic 101 question that they have been asked by a hundred other people, some of whom are just well intentioned amateurs who can't distinguish between "I don't know" and "nobody knows", and some of whom are other industry professionals that assume, for whatever reason, you may never have considered the most basic and obvious possibilities.

    I'm no less guilty than others of this: it is an easy trap to fall into. I far too often get seduced into commenting on technical implementation issues around GW2, when I should be avoiding them because I literally don't know. The speculation isn't valuable, because I can't know, and most of my suggestions ... well, if they are obvious enough to make from the outside, they are obvious enough that people thinking about this every day are well aware of them.

    None of that, and none of my expert knowledge in other areas, even closely related ones, gives me any more right to expect to be taken seriously, or gently educated, rather than told "buddy, we considered that, shut up". It is easy to make these assumptions, and hard to avoid them. I can't even claim a right to politeness in those responses, should they show up. It'd be nice, sure, but ... I have days when I'm snappy, and conversations where someone rolls out the same tired and foolish trope, and I just can't even.

    Since it is fairly simple to identify my current and previous employers, the standard and what should be obvious disclaimer applies: I am speaking for myself, as Jessica was, and my comments do not reflect the company. (even if they are highly likely to reflect the individual beliefs of many other employees of the same companies.)

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Windu The Forbidden One.6045 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Windu The Forbidden One.6045 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Windu The Forbidden One.6045 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Tenrai Senshi.2017 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    I’m on team Jessica.

    That “rando” person is trying to assume the limitations with personalized story telling through the mmo format, is not about the limited mmo format, but the problem lies with how Anet approaches personalized story telling through the “constraints of the Living Story’s narrative design”

    ...

    Are you criticizing the argument of the "rando" person because he is male or female, and are thus just doing a thin wailed sexist comment? Can you prove it?

    That is what this discussing is about. Not the pro and con of the different forms of personalized story telling, but rather if the comment itself was sexist. If the rando were employed by Anet and just now accused you of being sexist on social media and you may end up receiving death threats, would you think thats acceptable behavior?

    The artistic merits of using different techniques for personalized story telling is relevant for a discussion about personalized story telling. I wish that was what we were discussing, but its rather irrelevant for the person being accused on social media for sexism.

    I don’t care about any PC mumbo jumbo here, or anywhere else... I commented on the catalyst of the argument, so stick to that and don’t assume anything else.

    So, you basically chose to overlook the actual topic of the thread in order to weigh in your opinion on a different matter.

    In other words, you're off topic.

    This thread is “let’s attack a dev”, so sorry if I’m not joining in on the bashing... I can post what I want, and it’s all related. This topic is getting closed anyway, off topic or not, and to assume otherwise is silly.

    And I don’t care about any PC police here, but if you want I can start pulling up player twitter comments and reposts so we can play the morality judge game? Everyone on social media is fair game now right?

    We are not attacking her, we are merely discussing what happened. And hoping that maybe something good comes from this.
    Acting this antagonistic and belligerent towards other members of the community over mere constructive criticism is unacceptable behavior, and if any of us did this, we most definitely would be infracted or banned.

    No, people are attacking her here and reddit for comments made on her personal Twitter. Nothing good will come of it. Ppl need to take their pc antics and self righteousness somewhere else, or we should start to scrutinize all their public social media accounts and attack with mob mentality justice. Equal justice right?

    She is the only one showing "pc antics", she is the one who made the entire issue about gender, we are merely responding to it.
    Just as she is allowed to rant and make baseless accusations on the internet, we are free to give our opinion on it.

    Ya ppl post it here I’m going to comment.

    That is your right.

    Did Jessica break any twitter rules? Nope, but the morality police needs to act off some moral high ground and attack her on the official forums and reddit because they don’t agree with her.

    If anybody has an issue with what happened then keep it on Twitter where it belongs.

    This logic.. impossible to argue against. You're the master of discourse.

    Honestly astounded that you could turn the entire topic on its head and accuse the community pointing out misbehaviour as misbehaving the same way.

    Closing your eyes and ignoring it is your right as much as any other, but "keep it where it belongs"? Are you the sole arbiter of what goes where? And it's obviously related to GW2 & story, so talking about the people behind it makes logical sense too.

    Keep this kitten on Twitter where it belongs... Unless, of course, we should post all of our social media accounts so the community can talk morality on the official gw2 forums...

    Had this kitten been started here we can handle it here, but it didn’t. Get it?

    It was a discussion about Guild Wars 2, made by an employee working on Guild Wars 2 responding to a content creator for Guild Wars 2.

    Yea, I can see how that has no place here on the Guild Wars 2 forum. Absolutely agree it's totally off topic for here!

    Personally attacking a dev on the official forums is a no no. Or do you not understand that?

    Denouncing toxic and harmful behavior is not now, nor has it ever been, a personal attack. It is exceptionally reasonable that an ArenaNet employee attacking a Guild Wars 2 content creator during a Guild Wars 2 discussion should warrant some level of conversation on the Guild Wars 2 official forums, especially considering another ArenaNet employee supported the attack.

    There is no better place for this conversation.

    @Gaile Gray.6029 will disagree with you and shut down this thread asap.

    Wanna bet 10k gold thread gets shut down?

    Wow. You literally, to use your words, want to "shut down" a conversation because the majority of people in the thread disagree with your point of view. No wonder you're on Team Jessica, neither of you can handle anybody having a dissenting point of view and desire to silence people who think differently.

    Wow, you didn’t see the other 2 topics closed by the mods? What makes you think this thread is so special, or exempt for the “don’t attack a dev” rules?

  • Laivine.9308Laivine.9308 Member ✭✭

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

  • miraude.2107miraude.2107 Member ✭✭✭

    I understand holding someone to standards on social media, however I also see her frustration in having unsolicited advice, constructive or not, expressed at her on her personal account instead of posting it straight to the game or using official channels. I'm sure most of you would get frustrated and wear thing if the customers you dealt with constantly bombarded you with questions about your work on your personal twitter and facebook after working the hours that they work.
    This is one of the reasons that most devs in games are starting to make their personal accounts private, have two accounts or just delete them is because of things like this. Honestly this constant posting over and over again akins to a witch hunt. LOOOK, LOOK AT WHAT THIS ANET PERSON DID, EVEN THOUGH THE ADVICE WAS UNSOLICITED, IT WAS ~CONSTRUCTIVE~! SHAME SHAME! Let's ignore that anet is probably already reviewing and considering options since there was a holiday, let's just publicly execute this developer here and now, force their hand and make them fire someone they may not be able to replace at this time.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @thruines
    I've never offered an opinion on how to improve something.

    I don't think you understand the situation if you're calling the initial post creative trolling. On twitter people can read and comment tweets and they will certainly do so. You don't have to engage with developers but that doesn't automatically mean nobody should, as long as it's done respectfully, which was the case here.
    Then if they want, they can either dismiss the comment, or answer it in a neutral way, or make their feed private, but that's how twitter works...
    I don't even agree with Deroir, I think the narrative in this game is great, but as Voltaire said:
    "I disapprove of what you say, But I will defend to the death your right to say It". Something that seems to have died somewhere in 2016/17.

    I will agree thought that the "community" doesn't deserve an apology, but that doesn't mean an employee is in their right to do whatever they want while publicly affiliated with the company they represent. I have a specific clause for it on my work contract and I would assume most big companies in the world have it.

    Now I love the game, and I certainly won't stop supporting the game for something like that. But especially in this day and age we must all be careful to keep politic dramas out of work. We're all humans, all entitled to our opinions, and quite honestly, this is twitter, we've all seen far, far worse... but the fact that if you're going to do it, don't associate your work with it. End of the story.

  • DeadTreeJig.6714DeadTreeJig.6714 Member ✭✭✭

    @Turkeyspit.3965 said:
    Being offended is a choice YOU make. So to suggest that there be consequences for something someone did that lead to you making the choice to be offended is pretty silly, no?

    I agree, being offended is a choice. I wasn't offended by the devs response, however I was dismayed and perhaps that is what others are feeling. Dismay is not a choice, it's an emotional response.

    I realize that we live in a world where being perpetually outraged about something is 'chic, but in reality, being an adult (usually) signifies being in control of your thoughts and emotions.

    Being in control of your emotions does not mean to suppress them. To be in control of your emotions is to be in control your behavior in light of how you feel. I believe the devs response shows that very lack of control you mention.

    Feel free to disagree with me, I won't get offended. :)

    Sorry if this post is not germane to the topic. (<< did you see that, I used a fancy word )

    When a man lies he murders some part of the world – Paul Gerhardt
    Just so we’re clear, I’m a solo player – Kirito
    Live, Laugh, Love Kill Zhaitan Mordremoth Balthazar Joko Kralkatorrik my desire for the Skyscale I don't know... – DedTreeJig

  • Agree with the original post.
    Plus, I personally do NOT like " Don't expect me to pretend to like you here." .
    Basically telling me that you don't like the players , that ultimately fund your paycheck.
    If you don't like the "customer base" that you work for then maybe you need to change jobs and take your kitten MIXING with your professional life ideology elsewhere?
    So professional.
    Hope your listening ArenaNet, granted I am not a whale , but I will decline to buy gems for awhile, and won't be continuing to encourage my friends and family to switch to this game.
    There ARE other MMO's out there.... and by the way I am a female adult gamer and had no prior bias to any particular content creator.

  • glass.3245glass.3245 Member ✭✭

    Whatever you think about the original comment, anyone representing a company who publicly refers to a customer as a "rando kitten" has clearly committed gross misconduct. It doesn't matter what job you're in, what gender you are or whether or not you feel like you've been provoked, it's gross misconduct.

    The comment in question was extremely polite, and even if you imagine it was said in a patronising way it doesn't warrant the emasculating reply. And even if you want to argue that it does... surely you can't argue that it's acceptable to do that to a customer when you're representing a company.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    Again, it's not about the offense that is taken or not. The behaviour enabling it on the other hand,...

    No, I'm pretty sure I understand. She thought the guy was coming across as sexist due to his unoffered "help" to fix her work. Was he? Not to me. Just more of the same, "I'm a fan so I know how to fix the game correctly" kitten we see everyday. But I'm not her. You aren't nor is anyone else. We don't know how it read to her. We don't know if this was the first time someone on the internet offered to help her with her job. Or was it the one hundredth. Again, if you don't like her response then think I don't like that and move on. Instead people are strolling through her Twitter feed for ammunition for what exactly? I mean exactly what are people doing and what purpose? To me it looks like just another internet "fan" pitchfork in hand party. This started on Twitter and moved to Reddit and is now here. What are people wanting exactly because I know what it looks like to me. I think there's a scene in Frankenstein that showcases it.

    Keep in mind I don't know this woman and honestly don't care that much about if this affects her job or not. But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic. Its gotten even more laughable with people talking about how it affects the game like you can feel the developer disgust of men through a quest to kill some centaurs. Its like the forums have been taken over by children even more than they have been.

  • OK, this was NOT good. In every job I have had in the past several decades something like that would get you in hot water with your employer. I currently work for the local government. I can basically say what I want (within reason) on my own social media accounts, as long as I do not come off representing my employer. If you post post something like "hey, I work for so and so and this is what we think" your in trouble, can be reprimanded up to and including termination. I am not advocating one way or the other, just stating that it is pretty foolish to do something like that because you can get in a lot of trouble depending on your employers policies.

  • Laivine.9308Laivine.9308 Member ✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    What? I am a woman and I called those commenters on Jessica's feed mansplainers, that's why she was enraged. I was not sarcastic...Maybe something got lost in translation as english is not my native tongue.

This discussion has been closed.
©2010–2018 ArenaNet, LLC. All rights reserved. Guild Wars, Guild Wars 2, Heart of Thorns, Guild Wars 2: Path of Fire, ArenaNet, NCSOFT, the Interlocking NC Logo, and all associated logos and designs are trademarks or registered trademarks of NCSOFT Corporation. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners.