EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards - Page 6 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

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Comments

  • Gorden.5483Gorden.5483 Member ✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    You know if she get's fired by Anet, .....bet you she gonna call it sexism & she got fired cuz she a woman & sue them for it.

    Anyone that gets fired for voicing their opinion whether or not it's on "company time" is almost assuredly undeserving of it. Twitter is a total cesspit of humanity and we would all be better off not using it, or paying attention to anything on it. ANet have somehow made their MMO work where so many have failed, so I imagine they have their heads screwed on right. All this dev deserves is a chat with HR followed by everyone in the room laughing the whole thing off for being rightly ridiculous.

    Well I'll say, that not every opinion should be voiced. Specifically not those that are extremely intolerant towards any kind of group or person.
    I'll also say, that voicing your opinion, whever or not it is on "company time" always entails the reactions of people to it and the consequences from it.
    You as an employee always in some form represent the company you work for and as such will you always be associated with that company. And that is not something you can actively control. You subconciously connect the company with its employees since a company doesn't have a face you can associate it with, so you associated it with the faces of the people that work for said company and with them also their behavior.

    So that being said, if an employee shares an intolerable opinion it would very well be justified by the company to let go of that person as a means to distance themselves from the opinions that employee voiced.

    Now I don't want anybody to be fired because of their tweets or posts, but in this case I want something to happen. She should at least apologize for her behavior and ANet should probably distance themselves from the way she handles criticism in general.

  • @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    Please be satire, please be satire....

    It's a troll. It has to be. Hopefully the mods will delete soon

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Imagine if one of the game balance developers posted anything on twitter about game balance. They'd be flooded by arm-chair developers telling them how to balance the game "better".

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    You know if she get's fired by Anet, .....bet you she gonna call it sexism & she got fired cuz she a woman & sue them for it.

    Anyone that gets fired for voicing their opinion whether or not it's on "company time" is almost assuredly undeserving of it. Twitter is a total cesspit of humanity and we would all be better off not using it, or paying attention to anything on it. ANet have somehow made their MMO work where so many have failed, so I imagine they have their heads screwed on right. All this dev deserves is a chat with HR followed by everyone in the room laughing the whole thing off for being rightly ridiculous.

    In a world where a CEO of a company was forced to resign for privately donating money to a political cause a few years ago, I don't see how this is ridiculous. When people who happen to favor social justice viewpoints complain, people get fired. It would be a double standard to laugh this off as ridiculous, just because it isn't a "victim" group who was being discriminated against here. The craziest thing about this is, I don't know anything about the streamer who gave feedback to the dev but according to everyone who has watched them they are pretty focused on doing game content and not at all controversial, political, or by any means sexist. Hell, even the dev didn't know who they were so she had no basis from which to claim they were sexist, since their comment certainly didn't offer any.

    This has to be a two way street here. The fact is, this dev's twitter in the recent past has called for people, including some men in the gaming community, to be fired, called for non-peaceful protest, and approved of and shared doxxing posts. This person clearly supported people getting fired, kicked out of restaurants, made a social pariah etc, on her twitter merely because of their views, and not even because of how they expressed them. If ANET did decide to fire her, it would actually be pretty just.

    To be fair, this IS a social justice viewpoint. The way she treated him and Ink, based purely on their genders, is unacceptable in a modern company or setting and should have some sort of response from the company. Social Justice isn't just justice for one group of people; it's for everyone, and should be treated as such.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Women are condescending. Everyone is at some point. But that isn’t the behavior I’m describing above. What I’m describing is the disparate treatment of women by men. Merely being condescending to everyone would not qualify as mansplaining so much as just general rudeness.

    I've had a boss who was female and was talking down to me. So what? Should I immediately assume she did it cause I was male? No! She did it cause she thought she knew better (and maybe she was right?). People need to stop assuming things. The real feminism is to get everyone together, not this load of non sense that is to always differentiate people and expectations based on gender, race or whatever.
    Here lies the sexism. It's somehow ok to assume the worst when it comes to men. Guilty until proven innocent. This needs to stop. Now.

    EVEN if on average more men are condescending to women (this is certainly true to an extend) than the opposite, it still doesn't mean that this particular person is, indeed, treating you differently because of your gender. It's absolutely counter-productive for the feminist movement to assume these things.

    We all want equality, we all want everyone to feel welcome and safe at work. And I wish all the best for this dev who most probably worked hard these past few weeks, but please, maybe take a step back and realize someone saying "I disagree" is simply concerned about the game he likes, rather than some radical politics non sense that has been poisoning us for the past 2 years.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Imagine if one of the game balance developers posted anything on twitter about game balance. They'd be flooded by arm-chair developers telling them how to balance the game "better".

    And if they post it in social media it's normal. That's how SM works.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    Assuming this isn't satire, here's the definition of "racism" from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, which is used in the United States. Here's the copy/pasted definitions:

    1. a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
    2. a doctrine or political program based on the assumption of racism and designed to execute its principles
    3. a political or social system founded on racism
    4. racial prejudice or discrimination

    Interestingly enough, this doesn't mention that you can't be racist against white people, or more importantly, "the oppressors" as defined by certain far-left social theories. @Feithlinn.9284 I'd like to see what dictionary you've been reading.

    Noah Webster was a white male so doesn't count. /s

  • Dashingsteel.3410Dashingsteel.3410 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

  • CptAurellian.9537CptAurellian.9537 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Imagine if one of the game balance developers posted anything on twitter about game balance. They'd be flooded by arm-chair developers telling them how to balance the game "better".

    Simple solution, don't use (anti-)social media. It's a known phenomenon. Would have been a good idea for that dev, too. Not twittering means not being able to twitter stupid things.

    Praise delta!

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @thruines
    I've never offered an opinion on how to improve something.

    I don't think you understand the situation if you're calling the initial post creative trolling. On twitter people can read and comment tweets and they will certainly do so. You don't have to engage with developers but that doesn't automatically mean nobody should, as long as it's done respectfully, which was the case here.

    No, that is my particular case. I didn't say nobody should do so if they wish only I don't. The reasons I don't I gave before. I'm not here to pay you plus tell you want to do is my philosophy. Its one reason when I get bored with a game I move on. I don't take to the forums and cry my little heart out about how painful it is to stop playing? I just don't attach myself to games in that way. I have thoughts about things I may post. I've been thinking of one such post myself. However, and this is the biggest difference, I don't expect to be heard or listen to. I just state my thoughts and if they want to take them then fine. If not, I'm okay that way too. I'm not going to make a post about some issue I'm having with the threat to leave the game over it. If its bad enough, I'll leave well before that point. If I keep playing, I think I've pretty much said its not bad enough to make me quit so no reason for me to make a fuss over it.

  • nosleepdemon.1368nosleepdemon.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @nosleepdemon.1368 said:

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    You know if she get's fired by Anet, .....bet you she gonna call it sexism & she got fired cuz she a woman & sue them for it.

    Anyone that gets fired for voicing their opinion whether or not it's on "company time" is almost assuredly undeserving of it. Twitter is a total cesspit of humanity and we would all be better off not using it, or paying attention to anything on it. ANet have somehow made their MMO work where so many have failed, so I imagine they have their heads screwed on right. All this dev deserves is a chat with HR followed by everyone in the room laughing the whole thing off for being rightly ridiculous.

    In a world where a CEO of a company was forced to resign for privately donating money to a political cause a few years ago, I don't see how this is ridiculous. When people who happen to favor social justice viewpoints complain, people get fired. It would be a double standard to laugh this off as ridiculous, just because it isn't a "victim" group who was being discriminated against here. The craziest thing about this is, I don't know anything about the streamer who gave feedback to the dev but according to everyone who has watched them they are pretty focused on doing game content and not at all controversial, political, or by any means sexist. Hell, even the dev didn't know who they were so she had no basis from which to claim they were sexist, since their comment certainly didn't offer any.

    This has to be a two way street here. The fact is, this dev's twitter in the recent past has called for people, including some men in the gaming community, to be fired, called for non-peaceful protest, and approved of and shared doxxing posts. This person clearly supported people getting fired, kicked out of restaurants, made a social pariah etc, on her twitter merely because of their views, and not even because of how they expressed them. If ANET did decide to fire her, it would actually be pretty just.

    Yeah well the world is frankly, bonkers. I don't care if the dev is an kitten or not, nor do I particularly care about what was said. For the record, what happened with Firefox was also bs, and recently, with Roseanne too. If someone has a mental break on social media, who cares? People getting offended over words is a nasty firstworldproblem that needs to kitten right off.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    I’ve already addressed why simply including a descriptive word to describe a behavior associated with men is not sexist. This is fairly simple. To reiterate, men assume themselves to be subject matter experts over women even where the woman has qualifications and the man does not. These men do not behave similarly with other men. Rather, they defer to those men’s subject-matter expertise. This male behavior to explain things, poorly, to women and not to men is sexist.

    "I’ve already addressed why simply including a descriptive word to describe a behavior associated with men is not sexist." You keep saying that a particular behavior is associated with men, but provide no reason to believe the association is not sexist. Many men associate being "emotionally expressive" with women, without corroborating scientific proof. Therefore the belief that women are relatively "emotional" is sexist until there is corroborating scientific evidence. Do you have scientific proof that men are more frequently condescending to women than the converse?

    Do you have data or studies suggesting women do this to men? I’m basing this off the reported experience of multiple women in news publications going back over a decade and in conversations with women. Women in this thread have mentioned their own lived experience with this.

    Women are condescending. Everyone is at some point. But that isn’t the behavior I’m describing above. What I’m describing is the disparate treatment of women by men. Merely being condescending to everyone would not qualify as mansplaining so much as just general rudeness.

    I do not have data or studies suggesting women do this to men. You and I are both lacking in scientific proof that men are disproportionately condescending towards women, or the converse, which is my point. Individual anecdotes are not scientific, and that's all you or I are presenting. If I am wrong that you are lacking scientific proof, please cite your sources.

    1. In general, this is true. If I said "women are, on average, shorter than men" then I am not being sexist, as that is a verifiable fact that is founded on hard data. However, when a person starts giving special treatment to a person based on their gender/sex (e.g. using "mansplain" instead of "explain), that is the definition of sexism.

    No. See above.

    This is neither an explanation nor an argument. You failed to prove your point above using scientific evidence. Please cite your sources.

    We don’t need studies because we don’t need to establish that women are statistically more likely to experience this than men. It makes no sense to require statistical data unless we need to figure out how often something happens.

    What we have are a large number of women reporting sexist behavior by men. Anecdotal or not we can’t just dismiss that these events occur until we get mass statistical data. We can coin a term like mansplain because it describes a known phenomena regardless of how common it is.

    Let’s break this down logically.

    • Men can be sexist.
    • Sexist means treating people differently based on their sex, usually by mistreating one gender but not the other.
    • When a man engages in explanatory behavior that is condescending towards women but does not treat men the same he is being sexist.
    • When people coined the term mansplain to describe this behavior they did so to describe this particular kind of sexist behavior by men.
    • The term does not imply only men are sexist.
    • The term does not imply that women don’t also engage in similar behavior.

    I don’t feel we should derail a woman’s complaint about perceived sexism against her into calling her sexist because her term, accurately, indicates that some men engage in sexist behavior against women.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    @Zedek.8932 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:
    [...] it really drives home just how little the opinions of those who play this game matter to the actual employees at the company. I can only imagine how player Feedback > is viewed internally: just a bunch of amateurs telling professionals how to do their jobs, and any negative reaction towards a decision made in the game[...]

    This was pretty obvious in the "Censorship" thread already. The lack of Gaile's comments on the outrage was clear and simple and very obvious.
    The same with the unnecessary Deadeye rework. Today the plea of any further information has been ignored. It's all there, compact in a thread that a player, that does not get paid (but pay) for all that matter, can read trough in 20 minutes. I've been told it's not this way at aNet. Well then...?

    This is a different subject, but this stuff - as much as I do not really care about anymore, what company really cares about the customers out there right now? - shines some light in a shady topic that has a wider range if you think about it as a whole.

    Excelsior.

    Digital Extremes. A company that constantly listens to the community and happily interacts with them.

  • Zalavaaris.5329Zalavaaris.5329 Member ✭✭✭

    The worst part is now everytime I hear my own character speaking in game I wont be able to think about anything other than the horrible way a content creator I really enjoy was treated by the company that makes the game. It's really disappointing

  • DeadTreeJig.6714DeadTreeJig.6714 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    Deleted, not needed.

    When a man lies he murders some part of the world – Paul Gerhardt
    Just so we’re clear, I’m a solo player – Kirito
    Live, Laugh, Love Kill Zhaitan Mordremoth Balthazar Joko Kralkatorrik my desire for the Skyscale I don't know... – DedTreeJig

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @thruines
    I've never offered an opinion on how to improve something.

    I don't think you understand the situation if you're calling the initial post creative trolling. On twitter people can read and comment tweets and they will certainly do so. You don't have to engage with developers but that doesn't automatically mean nobody should, as long as it's done respectfully, which was the case here.

    No, that is my particular case. I didn't say nobody should do so if they wish only I don't. The reasons I don't I gave before. I'm not here to pay you plus tell you want to do is my philosophy. Its one reason when I get bored with a game I move on. I don't take to the forums and cry my little heart out about how painful it is to stop playing? I just don't attach myself to games in that way. I have thoughts about things I may post. I've been thinking of one such post myself. However, and this is the biggest difference, I don't expect to be heard or listen to. I just state my thoughts and if they want to take them then fine. If not, I'm okay that way too. I'm not going to make a post about some issue I'm having with the threat to leave the game over it. If its bad enough, I'll leave well before that point. If I keep playing, I think I've pretty much said its not bad enough to make me quit so no reason for me to make a fuss over it.

    I don't disagree... but initially, there wasn't whining about leaving the game but simply about giving feedback on a game.
    And yes, you cannot expect to be heard or listen to. Absolutely. I've posted countless tweets to different companies asking them stuff, I don't always get answers.
    But if you -do- get answers, it is expected that they at least be respectful. Giving feedback isn't creative trolling...

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Women are condescending. Everyone is at some point. But that isn’t the behavior I’m describing above. What I’m describing is the disparate treatment of women by men. Merely being condescending to everyone would not qualify as mansplaining so much as just general rudeness.

    I've had a boss who was female and was talking down to me. So what? Should I immediately assume she did it cause I was male? No! She did it cause she thought she knew better (and maybe she was right?). People need to stop assuming things. The real feminism is to get everyone together, not this load of non sense that is to always differentiate people and expectations based on gender, race or whatever.
    Here lies the sexism. It's somehow ok to assume the worst when it comes to men. Guilty until proven innocent. This needs to stop. Now.

    EVEN if on average more men are condescending to women (this is certainly true to an extend) than the opposite, it still doesn't mean that this particular person is, indeed, treating you differently because of your gender. It's absolutely counter-productive for the feminist movement to assume these things.

    We all want equality, we all want everyone to feel welcome and safe at work. And I wish all the best for this dev who most probably worked hard these past few weeks, but please, maybe take a step back and realize someone saying "I disagree" is simply concerned about the game he likes, rather than some radical politics non sense that has been poisoning us for the past 2 years.

    The reaction on reddit and here shows how this isn’t the case. Many are defending him and attacking her. He isn’t guilty until proven innocent so much as innocent until proven guilty. The comments reflect this mindset.

    I’d also take a step back and realize that while it may seem “radical” to you, this discourse has a legitimate expression. Rather than attacking her I encourage people to actually have a rational discussion and think about things outside their comfort zone.

    It’s not easy, certainly, but it’s worth doing.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    Obsolete now, so redacted.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    I don’t feel we should derail a woman’s complaint about perceived sexism against her into calling her sexist because her term, accurately, indicates that some men engage in sexist behavior against women.

    No, we should call her sexist because that's exactly what she is. She tried to silence two separate people who had dissenting viewpoints because of their gender alone; adding on that before this event she apparently posted racially disparaging posts about people before that (see other front page thread thread) and that really starts to paint a clearer picture of this situation. This is not someone who should be defended; this is a situation where good people need to speak up and say "This is unacceptable". Because honestly, the sort of hate, vitriol and prejudice she has put on her twitter while representing Arenanet IS unacceptable for many people.

    Arenanet owed its users an apology, and should be working to patch up their social media presence.

    Quote me the sexist thing she said. If it’s mansplain you know why I disagree.

    Same for racist comments. What did she say that was “racially disparaging?”

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    I don’t feel we should derail a woman’s complaint about perceived sexism against her into calling her sexist because her term, accurately, indicates that some men engage in sexist behavior against women.

    No, we should call her sexist because that's exactly what she is. She tried to silence two separate people who had dissenting viewpoints because of their gender alone; adding on that before this event she apparently posted racially disparaging posts about people before that (see other front page thread thread) and that really starts to paint a clearer picture of this situation. This is not someone who should be defended; this is a situation where good people need to speak up and say "This is unacceptable". Because honestly, the sort of hate, vitriol and prejudice she has put on her twitter while representing Arenanet IS unacceptable for many people.

    Arenanet owed its users an apology, and should be working to patch up their social media presence.

    Quote me the sexist thing she said. If it’s mansplain you know why I disagree.

    Same for racist comments. What did she say that was “racially disparaging?”

    She targeted ann individual for abuse based on their gender.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    I don’t feel we should derail a woman’s complaint about perceived sexism against her into calling her sexist because her term, accurately, indicates that some men engage in sexist behavior against women.

    No, we should call her sexist because that's exactly what she is. She tried to silence two separate people who had dissenting viewpoints because of their gender alone; adding on that before this event she apparently posted racially disparaging posts about people before that (see other front page thread thread) and that really starts to paint a clearer picture of this situation. This is not someone who should be defended; this is a situation where good people need to speak up and say "This is unacceptable". Because honestly, the sort of hate, vitriol and prejudice she has put on her twitter while representing Arenanet IS unacceptable for many people.

    Arenanet owed its users an apology, and should be working to patch up their social media presence.

    Quote me the sexist thing she said. If it’s mansplain you know why I disagree.

    Same for racist comments. What did she say that was “racially disparaging?”

    She targeted ann individual for abuse based on their gender.

    I said quote. You just restated your conclusion.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    I don’t feel we should derail a woman’s complaint about perceived sexism against her into calling her sexist because her term, accurately, indicates that some men engage in sexist behavior against women.

    No, we should call her sexist because that's exactly what she is. She tried to silence two separate people who had dissenting viewpoints because of their gender alone; adding on that before this event she apparently posted racially disparaging posts about people before that (see other front page thread thread) and that really starts to paint a clearer picture of this situation. This is not someone who should be defended; this is a situation where good people need to speak up and say "This is unacceptable". Because honestly, the sort of hate, vitriol and prejudice she has put on her twitter while representing Arenanet IS unacceptable for many people.

    Arenanet owed its users an apology, and should be working to patch up their social media presence.

    Quote me the sexist thing she said. If it’s mansplain you know why I disagree.

    Same for racist comments. What did she say that was “racially disparaging?”

    She targeted ann individual for abuse based on their gender.

    I said quote. You just restated your conclusion.

    I restated nothing.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

  • Ardid.7203Ardid.7203 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I'm just pointing that the "solution" (Super heated moods and hateful opinions) is way worse than the problem it is supposed to solve, AND DON'T SOLVE SAID PROBLEM.
    No matter how many coordinated people do it: Yelling at the screen will not fix the computer.

    What I consider a "pearl of wisdom" from a really good webcomic.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

    I’d like to add re: the whiteness as a social construct tweet by JP.

    This is actually true. Italians and others were not considered “white” originally when they immigrated to the US. They became “white” over time. Many groups that today are considered white were not originally part of that group.

    Even the US Supreme Court at one time struggled to define whiteness when Indian and Japanese people tried to claim they were white (and should be so treated by laws at the time). The decisions to exclude those groups were racist and not consistent with one another.

    When we talk about the cultural construction of whiteness it is actually a documented historical phenomena.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • Huskyboy.1053Huskyboy.1053 Member ✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:
    We don’t need studies because we don’t need to establish that women are statistically more likely to experience this than men. It makes no sense to require statistical data unless we need to figure out how often something happens.

    Do you not realize the irony of this statement? Without an actual dataset, you have no idea the probability of a woman experiencing certain behavior versus men. You've already conceded that female sexism towards males exists, so we agree that condescension towards the other sex is not a uniquely male phenomenon. How much effort have you put into finding instances of women being sexist towards men? You said that you have had conversations with women about their experiences with sexism; how many times have you sought out these conversations with men? Is it an equal amount? And what on earth makes you think your personal conversations are in any way statistically representative of the US's general population?

    What we have are a large number of women reporting sexist behavior by men. Anecdotal or not we can’t just dismiss that these events occur until we get mass statistical data.

    I have not ever denied that women experience sexism; why did you say "dismiss that these events occur"? Do you have a source for this "large number"? I keep asking and you keep not sharing it. I don't know how large a "large number" is. From your post it sounds like around 10, which is not very many in a country of over 300 million people.

    We can coin a term like mansplain because it describes a known phenomena regardless of how common it is.

    Nobody is questioning your ability to coin that term, we are declaring it sexist. "We" are capable of sexism, no doubt.

    Let’s break this down logically.

    • Men can be sexist.

    True, as can women. Why do you keep singling out male behavior when you acknowledge that some women are also guilty of this same behavior? Do you believe that mansplaining is somehow worse than womansplaining?

    • Sexist means treating people differently based on their sex, usually by mistreating one gender but not the other.

    That's exactly what using the word "mansplain" is doing; unless you're saying that women who use the word "mansplain" just as frequently use the word "womansplain" when referring to a condescending woman?

    • When a man engages in explanatory behavior that is condescending towards women but does not treat men the same he is being sexist.

    Correct, just as women who use the word "mansplain" towards men are being sexist, unless they treat other women the exact same way.

    • When people coined the term mansplain to describe this behavior they did so to describe this particular kind of sexist behavior by men.

    I agree.

    • The term does not imply only men are sexist.

    Incorrect, unless there is a corroborating term like "womansplain" that is used equally as frequently towards women.

    • The term does not imply that women don’t also engage in similar behavior.

    It certainly does. We have gender-specific terms because there is a (perceived) need to differentiate between male and female behaviors. If you wanted to be gender-neutral (i.e. not make any distinction between male and female behavior) then you would just say "explain." The phrase "boys will be boys," as lamented in this HuffPo article, is gender-specific because it refers to a perceived societal bias towards excusing bad behavior from young boys. There are not corroborating "girls will be girls" or "kids will be kids" phrases because this is perceived to be an issue specific to boys. The same logic applies with "mansplaining."

    I don’t feel we should derail a woman’s complaint about perceived sexism against her into calling her sexist because her term, accurately, indicates that some men engage in sexist behavior against women.

    Examining a complaint is not derailing. That's like saying, once a woman accuses a man of theft, that the detectives who search for evidence are "derailing" the investigation by conducting the investigation. We have no detectives since verbal rudeness isn't a crime short of making threats of violence, so it's up to people like you and me to examine the issue.
    Also her use of "mansplain" in-context was not a general statement about "men" in general, she was referring specifically to Deroir.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can someone post the link to the origin of the drama? Can't argue about something I don't know :)

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' , Housing , New asuran expansion , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
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  • Ephemiel.5694Ephemiel.5694 Member ✭✭✭

    I do expect Marjory, Kasmeer, Taimi, Rox and our PC if female to all gang up on Braham and Canach in the next LS thanks to this.

  • Ashen.2907Ashen.2907 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

    I’d like to add re: the whiteness as a social construct tweet by JP.

    This is actually true. Italians and others were not considered “white” originally when they immigrated to the US. They became “white” over time. Many groups that today are considered white were not originally part of that group.

    Even the US Supreme Court at one time struggled to define whiteness when Indian and Japanese people tried to claim they were white (and should be so treated by laws at the time). The decisions to exclude those groups were racist and not consistent with one another.

    When we talk about the cultural construction of whiteness it is actually a documented historical phenomena.

    Agreed.

    A discussion about the origin of modern social constructs is not inherently racist.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fluffball.8307 said:
    Man you guys must be super bored to have hundreds of posts about a twitter message. Go watch a soap opera, and let these forums to be less ridiculous.

    This is a soap opera. I even came with my popcorn :#

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Fluffball.8307 said:
    Man you guys must be super bored to have hundreds of posts about a twitter message. Go watch a soap opera, and let these forums to be less ridiculous.

    This is a soap opera. I even came with my popcorn :#

    I'm pretty sure that this means war.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @Ephemiel.5694 said:
    I do expect Marjory, Kasmeer, Taimi, Rox and our PC if female to all gang up on Braham and Canach in the next LS thanks to this.

    Well, we did have to

    kill Balthy for his toxic masculinity ;)

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @thruine.8510 said:
    But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic.

    And it's just as sickening, self-righteous and pathetic if the mudslinging comes from the other side of the fence.

    Thanks for fixing that. But this fence, care to explain? Because what I see is lots of fans (and we see that its the same for fans of games such as GW2) throw kitten of various degrees then cry when they get a little push back. While the guy (I'm assuming) wasn't like a lot of what we see on the internet, he did seem to sound like he was explaining something to someone lacking such basic knowledge of writing within MMOs. Are people running back through his feed? Probably. There's nothing that happens these days where everyone doesn't take some side. I don't even mean to be on a side except as those that are so tired of these types of reactions. Look at all the victims she created with that comment. I mean, now its going to affect someone's game play. Now its just another example of ArenaNet's problems. Its just a long list of folks traumatized by this one series of post. I mean if you really believe that the internet is a cesspool because of all the developers' (creatives of all types, game developers, move directors, actors, etc.) constant barrage against fans, chasing them throughout social media, then I guess that's the way you see it. For me, I guess I'm on the other side of that fence. Whatever it is these "fans" want, my guess is they are more likely to get even this little bit of contact cut off. And frankly, I'm not sure there's any value with any company engaging with fans. Not as long as respect is a one way street. This has no affect on any of us except the original poster.. And even there it doesn't look like that big of a wound.

This discussion has been closed.
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