EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards - Page 8 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

EDIT: ANET staff publicly representing company should be held to their own standards

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  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    I mean if you really believe that the internet is a cesspool because of all the developers' (creatives of all types, game developers, move directors, actors, etc.) constant barrage against fans, chasing them throughout social media, then I guess that's the way you see it.

    I don't care for this generalisation. I was talking about one instance.

    That's not generalization. That is what so much of the internet has become. I never had heard the term social justice warrior until some video was complaining about it. This one instance is an example of the thousands out there. When you go to someone's house, her twitter feed, you don't tell them how to paint the walls. There was a lack of respect and it drew a response. I'm fairly confident he didn't mean to but I don't know. So many don't know their place and as fans we definitely have a place and we need to stop screaming and accept that.

    I meant I don't think that the "internet is a cesspool because of all the developers' (creatives of all types, game developers, move directors, actors, etc.) constant barrage against fans". That's the generalisation I was talking about. I was just commenting on this one person doing it.

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Blocki.4931 said:

    Again, it's not about the offense that is taken or not. The behaviour enabling it on the other hand,...

    No, I'm pretty sure I understand. She thought the guy was coming across as sexist due to his unoffered "help" to fix her work. Was he? Not to me. Just more of the same, "I'm a fan so I know how to fix the game correctly" kitten we see everyday. But I'm not her. You aren't nor is anyone else. We don't know how it read to her. We don't know if this was the first time someone on the internet offered to help her with her job. Or was it the one hundredth. Again, if you don't like her response then think I don't like that and move on. Instead people are strolling through her Twitter feed for ammunition for what exactly? I mean exactly what are people doing and what purpose? To me it looks like just another internet "fan" pitchfork in hand party. This started on Twitter and moved to Reddit and is now here. What are people wanting exactly because I know what it looks like to me. I think there's a scene in Frankenstein that showcases it.

    Keep in mind I don't know this woman and honestly don't care that much about if this affects her job or not. But fans on the internet... god, I'm so sick of this self righteous kitten of mudslinging that goes on then crying about when someone says something to hurt their feelings. Its starting to get pathetic. Its gotten even more laughable with people talking about how it affects the game like you can feel the developer disgust of men through a quest to kill some centaurs. Its like the forums have been taken over by children even more than they have been.

    I agree. If its one thing the internet has shown is that a great many gamers have an overblown sense of entitlement. I actually agree she was too harsh but there is a valid reason for that defense mechanism and that is due to the abuse developers have received by their fans. There are countless articles on the abuse developers have faced.
    https://medium.com/@morganjaffit/the-cost-of-doing-business-c09cc5cc8728

    https://medium.com/vutoken/dealing-with-abuse-inside-virtual-reality-fd57a2adff5a

    And the point of those links for this discussion is? Every business which works with general population must be ready for abuse more so in the Internet.
    Don't want to have feedback? Use blogspot with comments off.
    And abuse is nit in even a problem here. JP posted in public media (twitter) her thoughts about story in MMOs. Of coungfor an interesting conversation, nothing more.
    The answer though. It's a disaster and that's more of an abuse than a polite initial statement.

    I see you think its fine for developers to be threatened and harassed by entitled gamers who demand to be catered to.

    I agree what she said was wrong but it goes both ways.

    If someone is threatening, please report their post.

    Who is demanding to be catered to? People are demanding a response from the company that the employee that spewed out hateful, bigoted speech was representing when they spewed it out. This shouldn't be surprising; it constantly happens in media and entertainment when someone makes deplorable statements openly. It makes national news, the person's life gets affected by it, etc etc. This is what Social Justice looks like, for better or worse.

    Anyone threatening JP should be reported, and depending on the extent of the threat police should be involved. Anyone recommending making threats against JP should be reported, and depending on the extent the police should be involved as well.

    But folks demanding that the company come out and denounce hate-speech is neither entitlement, nor is it demanding to be catered to.

  • Zoop.1360Zoop.1360 Member ✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    I don't know. I've defended coworkers before, because I know them and understand their point of view. Just as the dev over-reacted, so has the community. This is, at this point, nothing more than a witch hunt. The dev felt she was being singled out because she was a female dev. It's not likely but that's what her experience has taught her. The fuel on the fire isn't going to teach her any different.

    Peter Fries did what anyone would do for a friend. He wasn't trying to throw fuel on the fire. He was helping a friend. We've all done it. In all of this, he's the guy who's reaction I understand the most.

    For sure, but there comes a time where you need to understand that the people whose job it is to handle PR mishaps, should be the ones chiming in.
    Like I said, Jessica is obviously very frazzled and stressed (she even said so in another series of tweets), so she should be put on mandatory leave to recover. It's noble to want to protect a friend, but in a business situation (which this is), you need to know that trying to blame other people when your friend is behaving irrationally is not a good idea. And she was behaving very irrationally and he did blame other people for her behaviour.

    I agree, the reaction to her is over the top. She doesn't need to get fired or anything like that. She needs help.

  • Leo G.4501Leo G.4501 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    Where are these quantitative facts? I have never heard that female game developers get more hate because they are female. If it's true that female game developers get more hate, maybe it's because the products and changes they push aren't desired? That isn't sexism, that's consumerism.

    Besides observable history?

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/7/21/12241890/women-game-development

    https://kotaku.com/d-d-wouldn-t-be-what-it-is-today-without-these-women-1796426183

    http://theconversation.com/more-women-are-becoming-game-developers-but-theres-a-long-way-to-go-79843

    https://mashable.com/2018/01/09/video-game-diversity/#JEcOTwVIjOqM

    https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-more-women-into-game-development-1783683864

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-25/games-industry-more-women-working-but-gender-bias-remains-issue/8741744

    http://www.unite-it.eu/profiles/blogs/why-are-so-few-women-developing-video-games

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/12/12891628/videogame-industry-salary-survey

    Just a couple of articles for you that cover not only harassment from gamers but also stuff women deal with from their colleagues. And this is a quick google search.

    None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).

    Lastly, none of that is quantitative.

    I bet you a large sum of money, if the shoe were on the other foot, and a male game developer were telling a female commentor to go back in the kitchen and make a sandwich or something, this wouldn't be the stance you'd take.

    https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/star-wars-kelly-marie-tran-leaves-social-media-harassment-1202830892/). So the truth works against you.

    I'm actually well versed in the topic of star wars and the recent backlash. You do realize Rian J received far more hate and criticism than the actress if Rose. The only thruth is, when you take a beloved franchise and drag it through the mud of identity politics, your going to have a mud covered franchise that people don't like any more.

    Besides, 'go make a sandwhich' is not on the same level of calling someone sexist for a difference in opinion. There isn't a good comparison because, again, men in general get less hate in the industry. You're free to ignore the very observable habits of women getting chased off of media platforms for death threats because they merely exist in the industry.

    It's only not comparable because woman feel it's not, not because it is logically or quantifiably not comparable.

    I'm going to say it right now: female game developers do not get more online hate, they just complain about it more. In fact, practically all the criticism laid on thick about this game, the ones expected to shoulder the responsibility for those failings are men. Even if women played a part in the teams that fail us, it's generally expected to be the man's fault. That's just how things go and its the other side of sexism that men have to deal with but usually never nag women about. Whenever a bad thing happens, it's a man's fault. Whenever backlash happens, it's not the woman's fault and you should empathize with her. Whenever something needs to be fixed, it's a man's problem to do the work. Whenever success is achieved and a woman is there, the woman will take an equal share of the credit even though she didn't put in an equal share of the work.

    All of those observations, I assure you, any man will attest to but won't ever whine about.

    As a man myself, let me make it clear that you are presenting a series of factually incorrect statements, especially with regards to the gaming industry.

    Then prove it. You can say it's not true in the gaming industry, but how about in every other industry? How about the equality of work and published studies by men vs women in nursing? Or education? The facts are, men do go the extra mile but we will say women are still equally as hard working.

    This isn't a shot at women because I know there are women out there that work their bum off. This is a jab at identity politicians who think rounding up statistics by gender mean anything for the individual. The only thing your article links tell me is there are women willing to complain about anything and weak willed men out there that just take their word for it.

    Are you really going to tell me that she took credit for somebody else's work? There's a historical precedent for men to take sole credit of the work of women (which continues to this day) so your argument falls flat there.

    I didn't say that. That is in context of everything. When there is a problem, it's the man's fault but when victory is abound, there will be women who share in the spoils.

  • Zoop.1360Zoop.1360 Member ✭✭

    Although at this point if Arenanet hasn't responded, don't expect a response. They're just waiting for the whole thing to blow over.

  • @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    Your definition of sexism is either incomplete or outright false. You might want to check your sources.

    My sources are just fine. Thanks for your interest.

  • @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    Now I've seen it all.

    Found on reddit, a link to her tweet about the passing of TotalBiscuit.

    Wow.... that is absolutely disgusting.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    Now I've seen it all.

    Found on reddit, a link to her tweet about the passing of TotalBiscuit.

    Thank you for posting that. It proves the point I've been making. Fans will engage in any type of mudslinging imagined over their perceived hurt feelings. Was she wrong in that post? You bet. I would have waited at least a month before making such a statement. But I have no problem if that's how she feels. I didn't care for the guy either but not enough to comment on his death. I don't think he exactly elevated the conversation between developers and fans. There are lots of YouTubers that make excellent points and lots that make great points but bury them under tirades which add up to nothing more that they know more than their subject. I enjoy Jim Sterling and hope him a long happy life but I wish he could make his point without the name calling and over the top language. Especially since his voice can carry so far but I suppose without all of that he wouldn't be where he's gotten without it.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    You're the one who started the thread attacking- harassing - name and shaming (whatever synonym you want to use) a dev on their official forums. The mods already heard the "voices" in 2 previous threads that were closed down. But you had to start another thread to flare up the situation more...

    It's hypocritical of you to ask for any type civility when your ultimate goal is to harass an employee you don't agree with.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/46205/disappointment-with-anet-employee-attacking-their-loyal-playerbase

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/46185/extremely-disappointed-in-the-way-some-arenanet-writers-think-about-their-playerbase

  • Rufo.3716Rufo.3716 Member ✭✭✭

    If somebody were to say something not so nice about a dev on this forum they would get their comment deleted and get points taken away. What she has posted on her public account with ANet's name associated with it, is totally unacceptable. It's not just recent comments but past posts as well.

    What really upsets me is that Anet isn't even saying a word about this. To me not addressing this is essentially saying they condone such behavior.

  • Vieux P.1238Vieux P.1238 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    Where are these quantitative facts? I have never heard that female game developers get more hate because they are female. If it's true that female game developers get more hate, maybe it's because the products and changes they push aren't desired? That isn't sexism, that's consumerism.

    Besides observable history?

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/7/21/12241890/women-game-development

    https://kotaku.com/d-d-wouldn-t-be-what-it-is-today-without-these-women-1796426183

    http://theconversation.com/more-women-are-becoming-game-developers-but-theres-a-long-way-to-go-79843

    https://mashable.com/2018/01/09/video-game-diversity/#JEcOTwVIjOqM

    https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-more-women-into-game-development-1783683864

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-25/games-industry-more-women-working-but-gender-bias-remains-issue/8741744

    http://www.unite-it.eu/profiles/blogs/why-are-so-few-women-developing-video-games

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/12/12891628/videogame-industry-salary-survey

    Just a couple of articles for you that cover not only harassment from gamers but also stuff women deal with from their colleagues. And this is a quick google search.

    None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).

    Lastly, none of that is quantitative.

    I bet you a large sum of money, if the shoe were on the other foot, and a male game developer were telling a female commentor to go back in the kitchen and make a sandwich or something, this wouldn't be the stance you'd take.

    https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/star-wars-kelly-marie-tran-leaves-social-media-harassment-1202830892/). So the truth works against you.

    I'm actually well versed in the topic of star wars and the recent backlash. You do realize Rian J received far more hate and criticism than the actress if Rose. The only thruth is, when you take a beloved franchise and drag it through the mud of identity politics, your going to have a mud covered franchise that people don't like any more.

    Besides, 'go make a sandwhich' is not on the same level of calling someone sexist for a difference in opinion. There isn't a good comparison because, again, men in general get less hate in the industry. You're free to ignore the very observable habits of women getting chased off of media platforms for death threats because they merely exist in the industry.

    It's only not comparable because woman feel it's not, not because it is logically or quantifiably not comparable.

    I'm going to say it right now: female game developers do not get more online hate, they just complain about it more. In fact, practically all the criticism laid on thick about this game, the ones expected to shoulder the responsibility for those failings are men. Even if women played a part in the teams that fail us, it's generally expected to be the man's fault. That's just how things go and its the other side of sexism that men have to deal with but usually never nag women about. Whenever a bad thing happens, it's a man's fault. Whenever backlash happens, it's not the woman's fault and you should empathize with her. Whenever something needs to be fixed, it's a man's problem to do the work. Whenever success is achieved and a woman is there, the woman will take an equal share of the credit even though she didn't put in an equal share of the work.

    All of those observations, I assure you, any man will attest to but won't ever whine about.

    As a man myself, let me make it clear that you are presenting a series of factually incorrect statements, especially with regards to the gaming industry.

    Then prove it. You can say it's not true in the gaming industry, but how about in every other industry? How about the equality of work and published studies by men vs women in nursing? Or education? The facts are, men do go the extra mile but we will say women are still equally as hard working.

    This isn't a shot at women because I know there are women out there that work their bum off. This is a jab at identity politicians who think rounding up statistics by gender mean anything for the individual. The only thing your article links tell me is there are women willing to complain about anything and weak willed men out there that just take their word for it.

    Are you really going to tell me that she took credit for somebody else's work? There's a historical precedent for men to take sole credit of the work of women (which continues to this day) so your argument falls flat there.

    I didn't say that. That is in context of everything. When there is a problem, it's the man's fault but when victory is abound, there will be women who share in the spoils.

    Leo G.4501, You got valid points. But are you really going to excuse her behavior for real? Cuz her attacks was unwarranted & had no merits.
    It's clear in this case she's the bully.

    Winter Nerf is coming!

  • @saerni.2584 said:

    It isn’t that the person making the statement looks a certain way. It’s that a statement about someone’s own lived experience is valuable. I’m saying, “someone is speaking about their own life and how they experienced it and we (collectively) should carefully consider what they have to say.

    They know their own life. Asssuming I know their own life better than them would be presumptuous.

    Don't be coy. The way to determine whether or not someone's lived experience is valuable is by the way they look. Besides, "lived experiences" is meaningless if it can be twisted to mean anything. If someone takes offense to me saying that they're well spoken, that is a sign there is something wrong with that individual. I've seen many people ruin their life when they clearly had alternatives, so I take absolutely no stock in the concept that a person is going to know their own life better than somebody else can. Being alive doesn't give you omniscience about yourself.

    "Self awareness is knowing when you're sitting at the throne of ignorance." --Leo G.

  • Zoop.1360Zoop.1360 Member ✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    Now I've seen it all.

    Found on reddit, a link to her tweet about the passing of TotalBiscuit.

    Wow. This is just inexcusable. You don't gloat about someone's death like this.

    Then again, Anet won't do kitten. Doing anything against a psycho like this will just bring down hell upon their company. No wonder they haven't said a word about the controversy.

  • OrbitalButt.5708OrbitalButt.5708 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @castlemanic.3198 said:

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    Where are these quantitative facts? I have never heard that female game developers get more hate because they are female. If it's true that female game developers get more hate, maybe it's because the products and changes they push aren't desired? That isn't sexism, that's consumerism.

    Besides observable history?

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/7/21/12241890/women-game-development

    https://kotaku.com/d-d-wouldn-t-be-what-it-is-today-without-these-women-1796426183

    http://theconversation.com/more-women-are-becoming-game-developers-but-theres-a-long-way-to-go-79843

    https://mashable.com/2018/01/09/video-game-diversity/#JEcOTwVIjOqM

    https://kotaku.com/the-struggle-to-bring-more-women-into-game-development-1783683864

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-07-25/games-industry-more-women-working-but-gender-bias-remains-issue/8741744

    http://www.unite-it.eu/profiles/blogs/why-are-so-few-women-developing-video-games

    https://www.polygon.com/2016/9/12/12891628/videogame-industry-salary-survey

    Just a couple of articles for you that cover not only harassment from gamers but also stuff women deal with from their colleagues. And this is a quick google search.

    None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).

    Lastly, none of that is quantitative.

    I bet you a large sum of money, if the shoe were on the other foot, and a male game developer were telling a female commentor to go back in the kitchen and make a sandwich or something, this wouldn't be the stance you'd take.

    https://variety.com/2018/biz/news/star-wars-kelly-marie-tran-leaves-social-media-harassment-1202830892/). So the truth works against you.

    I'm actually well versed in the topic of star wars and the recent backlash. You do realize Rian J received far more hate and criticism than the actress if Rose. The only thruth is, when you take a beloved franchise and drag it through the mud of identity politics, your going to have a mud covered franchise that people don't like any more.

    Besides, 'go make a sandwhich' is not on the same level of calling someone sexist for a difference in opinion. There isn't a good comparison because, again, men in general get less hate in the industry. You're free to ignore the very observable habits of women getting chased off of media platforms for death threats because they merely exist in the industry.

    It's only not comparable because woman feel it's not, not because it is logically or quantifiably not comparable.

    I'm going to say it right now: female game developers do not get more online hate, they just complain about it more. In fact, practically all the criticism laid on thick about this game, the ones expected to shoulder the responsibility for those failings are men. Even if women played a part in the teams that fail us, it's generally expected to be the man's fault. That's just how things go and its the other side of sexism that men have to deal with but usually never nag women about. Whenever a bad thing happens, it's a man's fault. Whenever backlash happens, it's not the woman's fault and you should empathize with her. Whenever something needs to be fixed, it's a man's problem to do the work. Whenever success is achieved and a woman is there, the woman will take an equal share of the credit even though she didn't put in an equal share of the work.

    All of those observations, I assure you, any man will attest to but won't ever whine about.

    As a man myself, let me make it clear that you are presenting a series of factually incorrect statements, especially with regards to the gaming industry.

    Then prove it. You can say it's not true in the gaming industry, but how about in every other industry? How about the equality of work and published studies by men vs women in nursing? Or education? The facts are, men do go the extra mile but we will say women are still equally as hard working.

    This isn't a shot at women because I know there are women out there that work their bum off. This is a jab at identity politicians who think rounding up statistics by gender mean anything for the individual. The only thing your article links tell me is there are women willing to complain about anything and weak willed men out there that just take their word for it.

    Are you really going to tell me that she took credit for somebody else's work? There's a historical precedent for men to take sole credit of the work of women (which continues to this day) so your argument falls flat there.

    I didn't say that. That is in context of everything. When there is a problem, it's the man's fault but when victory is abound, there will be women who share in the spoils.

    Leo G.4501, You got valid points. But are you really going to excuse her behavior for real? Cuz her attacks was unwarranted & had no merits.
    It's clear in this case she's the bully.

    Dude, Leo has been steadfastly condemning her behavior since the very first thread, I think you might be confused

  • Tolmos.8395Tolmos.8395 Member ✭✭✭

    Le wild article on the topic has appeared:

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/news/guild-wars-2-lurches-to-yet-another-pr-nightmare

    At this point my mind is just boggled that Anet didn't come out ASAP and just say "Sorry guys, she said something crappy. We gave the affected parties some neat in game trinkets and told her knock it off. Social Media policy has been updated appropriately. Game on!" and that would be that. The silence seems to be causing them more problems than anything else 0_o

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Ho boy, here we go.

    @Leo G.4501 said:
    None of that is hate. Having unequal representation isn't harassment. Not only that, you cite the same resource many times which is going to have a bias (especially kotaku).

    Except there are reasons cited which include harassment, but whatever

    I'm actually well versed in the topic of star wars and the recent backlash. You do realize Rian J received far more hate and criticism than the actress if Rose. The only thruth is, when you take a beloved franchise and drag it through the mud of identity politics, your going to have a mud covered franchise that people don't like any more.

    It's only not comparable because woman feel it's not, not because it is logically or quantifiably not comparable.

    It IS logically incomparable, as I've demonstrated, if you want to ignore that, feel free.

    Then prove it. You can say it's not true in the gaming industry, but how about in every other industry? How about the equality of work and published studies by men vs women in nursing? Or education? The facts are, men do go the extra mile but we will say women are still equally as hard working.

    This is a discussion about the gaming industry, I tried to focus it as much as possible on the gaming industry. There's a whole discussion to be had about the nature of gender roles and how they've forced stigmas upon people who diverge away from their 'decided upon by society' roles, which includes men who go into nursing. There's an extremely large and in depth debate to be had about how patriarchies have affected society and how it's ended up harming everyone, there isn't a single person who hasn't been negatively affected by the patriarchy but some like the massive benefits it grants them for staying within the confines of their gender roles.

    This is not the place for such a debate.

    This isn't a shot at women because I know there are women out there that work their bum off. This is a jab at identity politicians who think rounding up statistics by gender mean anything for the individual. The only thing your article links tell me is there are women willing to complain about anything and weak willed men out there that just take their word for it.

    This single handedly convinced me continuing a conversation with you is warrantless, and is the reason why I've kept my responses short.

    I didn't say that. That is in context of everything. When there is a problem, it's the man's fault but when victory is abound, there will be women who share in the spoils.

    I never said you directly said that, the question was more of the rhetorical "how does this fit with what you've stated", my apologies for not making that clear.

    With all that said, I'm done responding to you.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate.

  • @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vieux P.1238 said:
    Leo G.4501, You got valid points. But are you really going to excuse her behavior for real? Cuz her attacks was unwarranted & had no merits.
    It's clear in this case she's the bully.

    Neither @Leo G.4501 nor I were excusing her behaviour.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leo G.4501 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

    Well I'm sorry if your woman confidence keeps you at the back of the class. You'll just have to leave those people who have the "special insight" to lead the charge regardless of if you agree with them or not. Things don't get done by just letting the individuals that want to make excuses lead.

    Oh, sugarplum, so many things wrong in so few words, including my gender, calling the most basic possible suggestion "special insight", and that I am somehow "just making excuses" instead of, y'know, also commenting here.

    Just out of interest, though, how many people who have worked one year in MMO story design, let alone ten, do you think would have considered the question "could we use a branching narrative to give players more agency within our story"?

  • Raizel.8175Raizel.8175 Member ✭✭✭✭

    11 pages already in a usually dead forum. Chapeau! The white-knighting in this thread is pretty impressive though.

    People seem to forget that she herself made her twitter-account a public one, especially since she linked herself to her employer by using "Game producer, writer, editor, [...] ArenaNet Narrative team." as description for herself. That description isn't just directly linking herself to ArenaNet, she's also making the impression that she has a leading role in ArenaNet. This is further emphasized by talking about her work in-depth. Every (informed) person has to expect that s/he can take that as an invitation to a constructive discussion, just as Deroir did. His reply was polite and friendly, in no way offensive. His argument also wasn't as basic that a professional developer could take it as insult - ArenaNet solved many problems the lazy way during the last few years, the only truly outstanding design was their take on mounts in MMORPGs; branching options aren't as exotic as some people claim, other MMORPGs actually make use of that option - and even if, since the developer is a professional, you solve such problems the professional way and explain why you're doing stuff the way you're doing it politely. He [Deroir] also should be able to expect such a professional answer from a professional game-developer in a leading position. Her first reaction though was already unprofessional and offensive, her second reaction made it even worse.

    All in all, this was inexcusable behaviour. You don't intentionally associate yourself with your employer in a public (!) forum ('cause that's what twitter is) and insult your employers customers. In most business-sectors, that's suicide. She should be happy that ArenaNet doesn't seem to care much about it - just look at her "history". She at the very, very least (!) should apologize publicly and may should consider closing her twitter-account to avoid further, future damage.

  • thruine.8510thruine.8510 Member ✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    I meant I don't think that the "internet is a cesspool because of all the developers' (creatives of all types, game developers, move directors, actors, etc.) constant barrage against fans". That's the generalisation I was talking about. I was just commenting on this one person doing it.

    Ah, understood. But really that's just made up. Its rare to see developers to respond that way. Now I've heard of comic writers going so far as to plan harassment. Not game developers for the most part. But I'm out of this for a bit. If I want to play any at least I need to.

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @thruine.8510 said:

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:
    Now I've seen it all.

    Found on reddit, a link to her tweet about the passing of TotalBiscuit.

    Thank you for posting that. It proves the point I've been making. Fans will engage in any type of mudslinging imagined over their perceived hurt feelings. Was she wrong in that post? You bet. I would have waited at least a month before making such a statement. But I have no problem if that's how she feels. I didn't care for the guy either but not enough to comment on his death. I don't think he exactly elevated the conversation between developers and fans. There are lots of YouTubers that make excellent points and lots that make great points but bury them under tirades which add up to nothing more that they know more than their subject. I enjoy Jim Sterling and hope him a long happy life but I wish he could make his point without the name calling and over the top language. Especially since his voice can carry so far but I suppose without all of that he wouldn't be where he's gotten without it.

    You really, really need to hear the argument that this is not, nor will it ever be, something to be said in an account publicly linked to a company.
    I feel bad for Anet and all her coworkers right now. They also work hard and don't deserve all the bad press so that one person can express their feelings.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

    I’d like to add re: the whiteness as a social construct tweet by JP.

    This is actually true. Italians and others were not considered “white” originally when they immigrated to the US. They became “white” over time. Many groups that today are considered white were not originally part of that group.

    Even the US Supreme Court at one time struggled to define whiteness when Indian and Japanese people tried to claim they were white (and should be so treated by laws at the time). The decisions to exclude those groups were racist and not consistent with one another.

    When we talk about the cultural construction of whiteness it is actually a documented historical phenomena.

    Yes. I think one of the stumbling blocks in the conversation is that we frequently use jargon that is confusing to people unfamiliar with the concepts, so they imagine that "whiteness is a social construct" doesn't actually have a very specific meaning, just as they imagine that racism, privilege, and other terms don't have very specific meanings. The whole routine "but conservatives don't agree with that definition of racism" is some of the fallout from this: they evolved from attempting to control the definition to attempting to control the narrative around it, because the formed didn't work.

    Unfortunately, historical knowledge doesn't shed much light in this part of the "gamer" community. These are, after all, the people who insist that having gay characters in Ancient Greece is completely historically inaccurate, because they "followed religion" and so would have "killed them on sight".

    I mean, Ancient Greece ... not gay ... just ... yeah.

  • Zalavaaris.5329Zalavaaris.5329 Member ✭✭✭

    This company and this product now remind me of her and her words. I logged in and did some story and the voice of my own character and the dialog just turned me off to know someone like that is free to talk to fellow customers like that. Shameful

  • @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

  • Walhalla.5473Walhalla.5473 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tolmos.8395 said:
    Le wild article on the topic has appeared:

    http://www.tentonhammer.com/news/guild-wars-2-lurches-to-yet-another-pr-nightmare

    At this point my mind is just boggled that Anet didn't come out ASAP and just say "Sorry guys, she said something crappy. We gave the affected parties some neat in game trinkets and told her knock it off. Social Media policy has been updated appropriately. Game on!" and that would be that. The silence seems to be causing them more problems than anything else 0_o

    I think Anet right now is trying to digest the last day and the PR Team seems to be completely stunned on what has happened. There is a lot to read through. I guess, that a PR text will come tomorrow after things were done internally. ( and its garuanteed that after the debacle yesterday, someone is going to have a very bad day at Anet ).

    I mean your whole company is celebrating a national holiday and one day later you see one of the biggest PR-Desasters in your companies history. It will take some time, some internal workings and Grenths help to resurrect the PR-Team before we can expect an answer.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    Don't want to really start Social Justice kitten here, but Wage gap is a myth. A really poorly thought one.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#52642ece2596

  • melodyca.8921melodyca.8921 Member ✭✭

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    On that note: I’m dropping out of the thread before it gets locked.

    I expect some @Gaile Gray.6029 post shortly thereafter addressing the need for respectful discourse and the like. I hope Anet treats her fairly and respects the portion of the community that is not happy with the calls for her to be fired.

    It is probably too much to hope for given the massive campaign to get JP fired for her liberal views and particular brand of feminist thought. I for one want to express my hope that Anet doesn’t bow to the pressure.

    Totalbiscuit made a single video where during the first 10 he said why he thought both side of the controversy was just political fighting and he disagree with both side, and then for the remaining 30m he took the time to actually rant about his own view about game review ethics. For this JP decided it was worth celebrating when at the age of 32 John Bain died to fast growing cancer.

    That is not about liberal views. That is not about feminism. She could have been an extreme right person or extreme left person and I would still not wish cancer on anyone and never celebrate their death in such cruel way. Be she feminist or anti-abortion, celebrating a cancer death belong to people with no empathy. Is that really the kind of person we want in GW2 community, and in a central position at that?

    I agree that was definitely wrong. But I suggest you do some research, she was not the only one who and there were male developers as well. And yes it was wrong but developers are fighting back because of the abuse they have received from the fans.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @SlippyCheeze.5483 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Laivine.9308 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    She used sexism as a motivator for the streamers response. What can't you understand?

    Mansplaining is sexism. What can't you understand?

    Apparently accusing someone of sexism is sexist. Same as accusing someone of racism. This kind of shallow logic is unfortunately common these days.

    Exhibit approximately one million: "Racism doesn't exist, but reverse racism is totally a problem."

    Also I love all the men trying to explain to a woman what sexism is. If you can’t understand why something is sexist you shouldn’t just assume it isn’t and then accuse her of being “crazy.” That automatic dismissal is sexist, actually.

    It’s like, take a step back and ask yourself “do I really know enough to comment intelligently on this?” If the answer is “not sure” then maybe you should be listening and not speaking.

    Unfortunately, the answer to the question is going to be "yes" as far as those folks are concerned. Just like "I make the most basic suggestion possible, because you have clearly never considered this" dude, they believe that they do have the knowledge, and the special insight, to comment intelligently on it.

    I’d like to add re: the whiteness as a social construct tweet by JP.

    This is actually true. Italians and others were not considered “white” originally when they immigrated to the US. They became “white” over time. Many groups that today are considered white were not originally part of that group.

    Even the US Supreme Court at one time struggled to define whiteness when Indian and Japanese people tried to claim they were white (and should be so treated by laws at the time). The decisions to exclude those groups were racist and not consistent with one another.

    When we talk about the cultural construction of whiteness it is actually a documented historical phenomena.

    Agreed. A discussion about the origin of modern social constructs is not inherently racist.

    This is true, but ... it isn't nearly as significant as many people seem to think. It is entirely possible to have a non-racist discussion on the subject.

    The majority of discussions on the subject, especially in the public sphere, arise from inherently racist assumptions or positions, and in many cases, are not actually "discussions" at all, but rather, a deliberate and concerted strategy of normalizing racism set out by, and encouraged by, literal kitten, and other white supremacist groups.

    It also doesn't mean that anyone is obliged to have the discussion "on demand", as it were. Nobody is under any obligation to answer questions or engage in discussion with someone, regardless of the other parties desire. There is absolutely nothing wrong with simply saying "your historical ignorance has led you to an unsupportable conclusion", or "do you really think that in ten years this question has never, ever occurred to me, or come up in discussion?"

    Unfortunately, many of the people pushing hard on these issue are also from backgrounds that have accustomed them to the privilege of having their ideas, no matter how mediocre, respected and praised. They are treated with unearned deference, and more "successful" than other, more capable people thanks to systematic biases in the culture.

    They also have no real money on the table: the outcome of the discussion has no significant effect on them. If they loose, they might be a little grumpy about having to put up with people doing things they disapprove of. They do not, however, stand to lose, say, their lives, or their incomes, or their ability to spend time with people they love, or to have children. What seems like a fun debate when there are no real stakes has a significantly different tenor when your literal ability to be yourself is on the line.

    So, yes, a discussion about race and society is not inherently racist, but the reverse is not true: there are plenty of racist discussions about race and society.

  • smitske.4912smitske.4912 Member ✭✭

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    And you have no proof for that whatsoever.

  • @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    Don't want to really start Social Justice kitten here, but Wage gap is a myth. Bad a poorly thought one.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#52642ece2596

    Loch Ness monster is a myth not the wage gap. Sorry.
    Talk about wage gap myth to non whites in USA.

    https://www.statista.com/topics/3453/wage-inequality-in-the-united-states/

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    On that note: I’m dropping out of the thread before it gets locked.

    I expect some @Gaile Gray.6029 post shortly thereafter addressing the need for respectful discourse and the like. I hope Anet treats her fairly and respects the portion of the community that is not happy with the calls for her to be fired.

    It is probably too much to hope for given the massive campaign to get JP fired for her liberal views and particular brand of feminist thought. I for one want to express my hope that Anet doesn’t bow to the pressure.

    Totalbiscuit made a single video where during the first 10 he said why he thought both side of the controversy was just political fighting and he disagree with both side, and then for the remaining 30m he took the time to actually rant about his own view about game review ethics. For this JP decided it was worth celebrating when at the age of 32 John Bain died to fast growing cancer.

    That is not about liberal views. That is not about feminism. She could have been an extreme right person or extreme left person and I would still not wish cancer on anyone and never celebrate their death in such cruel way. Be she feminist or anti-abortion, celebrating a cancer death belong to people with no empathy. Is that really the kind of person we want in GW2 community, and in a central position at that?

    I agree that was definitely wrong. But I suggest you do some research, she was not the only one who and there were male developers as well. And yes it was wrong but developers are fighting back because of the abuse they have received from the fans.

    The point of discussion here is ONE particular worker with sexist, bigoted and full way amoral tweets and comments. i don't really care if she's abused idon't care if she has a mental breakdown or not i don't care if she stepped in kitten in the morning. She, while representing ANet (as it is in her Bio) made some awful comments. That's the problem, that's why we are here.

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    Don't want to really start Social Justice kitten here, but Wage gap is a myth. Bad a poorly thought one.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#52642ece2596

    Loch Ness monster is a myth not the wage gap. Sorry.
    Talk about wage gap myth to non whites in USA.

    https://www.statista.com/topics/3453/wage-inequality-in-the-united-states/

    And we believe statista and not Forbes why?

  • @smitske.4912 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    And you have no proof for that whatsoever.
    @smitske.4912 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    And you have no proof for that whatsoever.

    Yawn

  • melodyca.8921melodyca.8921 Member ✭✭

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    On that note: I’m dropping out of the thread before it gets locked.

    I expect some @Gaile Gray.6029 post shortly thereafter addressing the need for respectful discourse and the like. I hope Anet treats her fairly and respects the portion of the community that is not happy with the calls for her to be fired.

    It is probably too much to hope for given the massive campaign to get JP fired for her liberal views and particular brand of feminist thought. I for one want to express my hope that Anet doesn’t bow to the pressure.

    Totalbiscuit made a single video where during the first 10 he said why he thought both side of the controversy was just political fighting and he disagree with both side, and then for the remaining 30m he took the time to actually rant about his own view about game review ethics. For this JP decided it was worth celebrating when at the age of 32 John Bain died to fast growing cancer.

    That is not about liberal views. That is not about feminism. She could have been an extreme right person or extreme left person and I would still not wish cancer on anyone and never celebrate their death in such cruel way. Be she feminist or anti-abortion, celebrating a cancer death belong to people with no empathy. Is that really the kind of person we want in GW2 community, and in a central position at that?

    I agree that was definitely wrong. But I suggest you do some research, she was not the only one who and there were male developers as well. And yes it was wrong but developers are fighting back because of the abuse they have received from the fans.

    The point of discussion here is ONE particular worker with sexist, bigoted and full way amoral tweets and comments. i don't really care if she's abused idon't care if she has a mental breakdown or not i don't care if she stepped in kitten in the morning. She, while representing ANet (as it is in her Bio) made some awful comments. That's the problem, that's why we are here.

    And I bet if she was a man you would have glossed the over.

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    On that note: I’m dropping out of the thread before it gets locked.

    I expect some @Gaile Gray.6029 post shortly thereafter addressing the need for respectful discourse and the like. I hope Anet treats her fairly and respects the portion of the community that is not happy with the calls for her to be fired.

    It is probably too much to hope for given the massive campaign to get JP fired for her liberal views and particular brand of feminist thought. I for one want to express my hope that Anet doesn’t bow to the pressure.

    Totalbiscuit made a single video where during the first 10 he said why he thought both side of the controversy was just political fighting and he disagree with both side, and then for the remaining 30m he took the time to actually rant about his own view about game review ethics. For this JP decided it was worth celebrating when at the age of 32 John Bain died to fast growing cancer.

    That is not about liberal views. That is not about feminism. She could have been an extreme right person or extreme left person and I would still not wish cancer on anyone and never celebrate their death in such cruel way. Be she feminist or anti-abortion, celebrating a cancer death belong to people with no empathy. Is that really the kind of person we want in GW2 community, and in a central position at that?

    I agree that was definitely wrong. But I suggest you do some research, she was not the only one who and there were male developers as well. And yes it was wrong but developers are fighting back because of the abuse they have received from the fans.

    Think about a friend you know around the age of 30. Male or Female, it doesn't matter. Imagine under a couple of years they go from healthy with a bright future to slowly get sicker and sicker until every hour, every day is filled with pain. Massive constant pain. So much pain that pain medicine won't work and it just keep going. Then they die, leaving behind family and friends.

    Oh, and they had people who followed them on social media and as a loosely connected to this friend of yours, your friend is guilty of not controlling followers actions enough online so people celebrate that your friend died. Does this sound like "do more research" problem?

    Its not just wrong, it is a complete lack of empathy. Just thinking about it is making me feel ill. From now on that is the association I have with gw2, and it feels like she stolen something from me. I really enjoy this game but hearing about such behaviour is beyond abhorrent to me.

  • SlippyCheeze.5483SlippyCheeze.5483 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Huskyboy.1053 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    Thanks for the detailed reply @Huskyboy.1053

    I’ll respond more later but I think the core of our disagreement lies with the fact that I think merely identifying the subset of behavior particular to men is valuable. Women do experience sexism and I do believe, without a study in front of me, with negative consequences that we shouldn’t ignore just because men also experience sexism. We can address both. Women can identify mansplaining and men can identify sexism they experience. It’s an option for men to speak up about sexism against them. We just shouldn’t complain about a lack of paternity leave, for example, to drown out women asking for better maternity leave.

    Yes, we could use womansplain (if women were targeting condescending remarks at men and not men) but that’s not the context here. Here we are dealing with a woman and a man. So we can use mansplain. It’s an easy shorthand for “possibly sexist explanatory condescension” which, admittedly, does have a certain enjoyable ring—but mansplain is easier to say lol.

    I wonder what a good term would be, instead, for the exceedingly small subset of people that use the oft condemned and bigoted term "mansplaining" to silence the voices of individuals based purely on their gender? Of course, then that would be as bad a deragatory term like "mansplaining", so then we'd need a term for anyone who used the new term.

    Being prejudiced seemed complicated. I prefer the majority of people who don't sink so low as to use terms like that!

    Who is being silenced? You are clearly expressing yourself. Being criticized and debated does not mean you are being silenced. People post and I am free to respond. That’s not censorship that’s freedom of speech.

    I completely support @saerni.2584 here. The only people who can silence you on this site are the forum moderators. If you feel that someone stating a different point of view is "silencing" you, see a therapist.

    A whole lot of folks on the right talk a big game about how they value free speech, and they want people to take responsibility for their actions, and how we shouldn't pre-judge people, but rather, judge them by their character, or their actions.

    Then they get really, really upset when someone criticizes them: they don't realize there is a significant difference between free speech, and consequence-free speech. We say this in droves when the march in Charlottsville, where a bunch of people marched alongside literal kitten, in uniform. They assumed that they could simply walk next to kitten, expressing their views as freedom of speech permits, and there would be no consequences. Nobody would fire them for it, or stop being their friend.

    They scream blue murder when someone asks them to take responsibility for their actions: ask them to warn people before talking about things that upset them, or to consider the larger scale effects of their decisions, to points out that walking next to a kitten makes you look pretty much like a kitten, and they are incensed that anyone would dare do that. After all, they were just exercising their rights, what is this unfair situation when people respond to their actions?

    They complain about incivility, and argue we shouldn't demonize people, and that people have a right to act on their beliefs, to refuse to serve someone in a public business because they object to the choices those people have made ... right up until someone who has spent a year working hard to explain, and justify, stripping rights from LBGT people and immigrants, who has spent that time describing refugees, immigrants, and people from a variety of countries as evil, in support of someone who does this more frequently is refused service in a restaurant by the people she has been attacking.

    Then, suddenly, civility matters, and turning someone away because they have taken specific, public actions is entirely unfair, and the right to refuse service to an entire class of people based on their choice of partner doesn't matter compared to the horror over gasp someone judging a specific person on the basis of their specific, personal actions and choices.

    Heck, they don't even distinguish between the two situations, being unable, or unwilling, to understand that there is a difference between pre-judging a class of people based on some trait, and judging specific individuals based on their previous actions.

    So, I'm not surprised to see this here: claims that people disagreeing with you are "silencing" are right out of the playbook, sitting there beside "I was only joking", and "if you won't debate it, how will I learn".

  • @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    @alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

    @AliamRationem.5172 said:
    Feigned outrage is so much better on twitter, where it's limited to 250 characters.

    It's her personal twitter feed. Not only do forum-goers not need to know this, but we definitely don't need to have a discussion with ANet about it.

    My favorite is the part where you pretend such a discussion would somehow be constructive when this is obviously just a weak attempt to ensure professional consequences for someone who said something that offended your sensibilities.

    If it isn't constructive, that won't be my doing. Sexism against ANYONE is offensive, male or female. To discount the opinions of someone offering constructive criticism based on their gender is offensive. So yes, in that sense, I am offended. My outrage is certainly not feigned, or I would not have gone through all the trouble of looking into all of the Twitter posts I did and doing fact-checking to ensure I was accurately representing the situation, let alone writing that long of a post.

    Sexism against anyone does NOT exist. Sexism is only against females as racism is ONLY against black people. Please bare in mind that still races are clearly a social construct. (that is so easy to understand even if you are a male or even white male). What you understand and keep repeating as "constructive criticism" it may not be if you are a person trying to explain to you how you need to do your job or how to be a "better professional" by his standards. Being a customer does not make you always right. It's so easy to understand the difference between constructive criticism and patronising. If you are unable to understand it just read any dictionary. It's all written there.

    ah yes..... pc victimhood hieararchy at its finest. This is just social engineering designed to squelch speech. If you don't have the appropriate victim status, your opinion doesn't matter...…..

    Yeap , that is exactly what any hate speaker would say. "They supress my opinion and freedom of speech because they victimize themselves so ppl feel pity abou them.It does not matter I am the bully. My opinion matters too."

    Well guess what? It does not. At least not the way you think..

    Feithlinn I respectfully asked at the beginning of this thread that people not use personal attacks here, and have asked people to stop whenever I see them, even when they agreed with me on any topics. Please don't imply that another forum user is being "a hate speaker" or "a bully" just because they respectfully disagreed with you. I would like to keep this thread around so everyone has a chance to make their voice heard. Thanks!

    I had no intention to personally attack anyone. I am sorry if you or anyone feels offended but If hate speakers and misogynists feel offended being called that its their own problem. Not mine.

    So you are labeling me a misogynist because I feel that both men and women can be sexist? I guess I am hateful because I point out the inherent bias of the pc victim hierarchy.

    Sexism is discrimination against women. Full stop. So I am not labeling you anything . You label yourself.
    As for the "inherent bias" part please do not mention Hawthorne effect next.

    That is not the definition of sexism. Full stop.

    If a female hiring manager refuses to hire the most qualified candidate because he is male, she is engaging in sexist behavior.

    Sorry but what you say can't happen. On the other side there are millions of cases women did not get hired because they did not want their kitten getting groped.

    Right now in USA there is a higher chance that a company will hire woman with the same or even less qualifications than a man just becouse they fear of being called out as bigots.

    They are bigots because even if they do what you say ,her payment will be much less than her male co-worker (same position - same qualifications).

    Don't want to really start Social Justice kitten here, but Wage gap is a myth. Bad a poorly thought one.
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-gender-pay-gap-myth/#52642ece2596

    Loch Ness monster is a myth not the wage gap. Sorry.
    Talk about wage gap myth to non whites in USA.

    https://www.statista.com/topics/3453/wage-inequality-in-the-united-states/

    And we believe statista and not Forbes why?

    Because https://www.forbes.com/sites/karstenstrauss/2018/01/22/the-countries-with-the-best-and-worst-gender-pay-gap-expectations-and-how-the-u-s-stacks-up/#2c1028fb345c

    But we can keep exchanging links all night long...

  • NoiseRen.2403NoiseRen.2403 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @NoiseRen.2403 said:

    @melodyca.8921 said:

    @Belorn.2659 said:

    @saerni.2584 said:
    On that note: I’m dropping out of the thread before it gets locked.

    I expect some @Gaile Gray.6029 post shortly thereafter addressing the need for respectful discourse and the like. I hope Anet treats her fairly and respects the portion of the community that is not happy with the calls for her to be fired.

    It is probably too much to hope for given the massive campaign to get JP fired for her liberal views and particular brand of feminist thought. I for one want to express my hope that Anet doesn’t bow to the pressure.

    Totalbiscuit made a single video where during the first 10 he said why he thought both side of the controversy was just political fighting and he disagree with both side, and then for the remaining 30m he took the time to actually rant about his own view about game review ethics. For this JP decided it was worth celebrating when at the age of 32 John Bain died to fast growing cancer.

    That is not about liberal views. That is not about feminism. She could have been an extreme right person or extreme left person and I would still not wish cancer on anyone and never celebrate their death in such cruel way. Be she feminist or anti-abortion, celebrating a cancer death belong to people with no empathy. Is that really the kind of person we want in GW2 community, and in a central position at that?

    I agree that was definitely wrong. But I suggest you do some research, she was not the only one who and there were male developers as well. And yes it was wrong but developers are fighting back because of the abuse they have received from the fans.

    The point of discussion here is ONE particular worker with sexist, bigoted and full way amoral tweets and comments. i don't really care if she's abused idon't care if she has a mental breakdown or not i don't care if she stepped in kitten in the morning. She, while representing ANet (as it is in her Bio) made some awful comments. That's the problem, that's why we are here.

    And I bet if she was a man you would have glossed the over.

    Oh you know me so well... not.
    I don't really care about gender or sex of the offender. It makes no difference if some male scumbag were gloating about death from cancer, my reaction would be exactly the same.

  • Ash.4589Ash.4589 Member

    A-net, something worth reminding your people about...
    "If you express your opinion publicly, you open it up to interpretation."

    The manner in which one handle's everything that comes with that will define you as a person / company.

  • Haleydawn.3764Haleydawn.3764 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2018

    (I know I said I wouldn't comment again, but this is a PSA, not in reply to anyone, nor will I reply)
    Peter Fries has seemingly deleted all tweets in connection (tagged) to JP's. The only one remaining is:

    Better get a wriggle on.

  • @Ambush.9420 said:

    @Feithlinn.9284 said:

    Loch Ness monster is a myth not the wage gap. Sorry.
    Talk about wage gap myth to non whites in USA.

    https://www.statista.com/topics/3453/wage-inequality-in-the-united-states/

    As an economist, I'd urge you to learn some basic statistical analysis before making such claims.

    You seem to have a poor understanding of how the specific data (regarding the 'wage gap') is actually gathered.

    The site you linked looks blindly at the entire population of women, and compares them (again blindly) to the entire population of men.

    It doesn't take into account extremely important factors such as the type of job , the hours worked, time taken off, etc.

    Once you account for these, the wage gap diminishes, and in fact.. recent findings suggest women actually earn MORE for the same job once these factors are equated for.

    Essentially, women are making less as a whole because they choose jobs that make less, they are generally worse at negotiating, and they take much more time off than the average man.

    Again, once you account for these factors.. the wage gap diminishes entirely (sometimes even favouring the women).

    Now, a good discussion would be WHY are women choosing worse paying jobs? Why are men more interested in higher paying jobs such as computer science , engineering and mathematics? Some say it's biology, others say it's due to societal pressures.

    You can look to the Scandinavian countries for an answer, which are without argument the most egalitarian countries in the world.. what do we find when we look there? There is actually an even BIGGER divide between men and women in terms of their career choices. The data is extremely clear on that.

    You can conclude that when left to their own devices, men and women make different life choices.. careers being no different. That is an extremely large part of why blindly comparing men and women (in terms of earnings) is completely ridiculous from a statistical standpoint.

    Yeap most women and not white people choose worse paying jobs because they make different life choices.Its their fault. There is no wage gap.
    I get it. I am not going to ruin your male privelage , don't worry.

This discussion has been closed.
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