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  • Felipe.1807Felipe.1807 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Jesus, why people still talking about this? I could understand if this conversation were making some interesting debate or something, but you guys are just running in circles going nowhere...she got the Dhuum ban treatmeant, you agree? Disagree? Dosent matter, whatever you say dosent change the fact that she was not professional when responding to that dude, she crossed the line, you dont treat your customers like that, even when they bahave badly(which he didnt, he was polite the whole time).

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018

    I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?
    Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

    @Dreamwolf.7423 said:
    I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:
    If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

    As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

    And...

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:
    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

    Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

    Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

    I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

    I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

  • gateless gate.8406gateless gate.8406 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

    "All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?"

    FYI, what he did is called "responding" or "talking," not policing. Sadly those words don't have connotations of victimization, but hey.

  • Dreadshow.9320Dreadshow.9320 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?
    Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

    @Dreamwolf.7423 said:
    I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:
    If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

    As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

    And...

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:
    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

    Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

    Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

    I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

    I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

    So you don't think it's white men defending other white men anymore?

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?
    Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

    @Dreamwolf.7423 said:
    I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:
    If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

    As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

    And...

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:
    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

    Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

    But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

    No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

    LOLOLOLOL
    No it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically).
    Its a lot worse than you think.
    smh.

    If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised.

    Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice.

    Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

    Girrll, I just mentioned that I am a women.
    smh.

    kitten behavior is sexist.

  • Shoyoko.7309Shoyoko.7309 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?
    Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

    @Dreamwolf.7423 said:
    I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:
    If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

    As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

    And...

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:
    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

    Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

    But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

    No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

    LOLOLOLOL
    No it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically).
    Its a lot worse than you think.
    smh.

    If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised.

    Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice.

    Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

    Girrll, I just mentioned that I am a women.
    smh.

    kitten behavior is sexist.

    nope

  • Crinn.7864Crinn.7864 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018

    @Sarrs.4831 said:

    @Crinn.7864 said:
    It also took them over 6 years to make those stories, and that's with Bioware outsourcing the engine work.

    Do you want to wait a entire year between living world episodes?

    For the initial storylines, it took that time.

    What's worth looking at is the KOTFE content; released on a roughly monthly/bimonthly cadence with new chapters with real impact towards both gameplay and later chapters (at least, as real as you can get in an MMO). Choices between characters, characters dying, romances, distinct flavors between the classes depending on the choices you took both during the KOTFE story and the other storylines. While it wasn't perfect, there was a bit of filler and ultimately all roads led to the throne ship, different choices did have impacts.

    The end of KOTET's post-release story was disappointing though, traitor Shan's reasoning was spot on if you were darkside

    What I'm actually curious about is how much pre-production went into the entire cycle rather than on a per-episode basis.

    There was a 4 month content drought prior to KOTFE, however there is a large body of circumstantial evidence that they actually began work on KOTFE shortly after finishing the Dread Master story arc with the 2.4 patch. It's also important to note that Bioware literally scrapped the Operations/Flashpoint, PvP, and GSF dev teams in order to put all of their manpower behind the KOTFE arc. (they later abandoned the story focus after the 5.0 expansion after admitting that abandoning group content was a mistake)

    Sanity is for the weak minded
    YouTube

  • Sylv.5324Sylv.5324 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

    Sexism isn't entirely a conscious bias, which is why it's such a pain to deal with. I'm not saying sexism was the case here, though.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @gateless gate.8406 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

    "All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?"

    FYI, what he did is called "responding" or "talking," not policing. Sadly those words don't have connotations of victimization, but hey.

    He's not just responding. He wants me to retract a comment that I never made. Why not put his post beside mine and see if you can figure out the problem?

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?
    Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

    @Dreamwolf.7423 said:
    I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:
    If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

    As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

    And...

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:
    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

    Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

    Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

    I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

    I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

    So you don't think it's white men defending other white men anymore?

    That is definitely happening.

  • Lucky.9421Lucky.9421 Member ✭✭

    I wasn't expecting Peter to go down too. He had been there almost 8 years. Feels bad man.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?
    Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

    @Dreamwolf.7423 said:
    I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:
    If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

    As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

    And...

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:
    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

    Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

    But it is harsh and one of the worst labels to call someone, a sexist.

    No, there are far worse things to call someone than sexist. It's just men don't often get called them. Being called sexist isn't even an insult. It's just calling out bad behavior and asking someone to do better.

    LOLOLOLOL
    No it doesn't, it is definitely not like bad behaviour, it is way worse than that. Calling someone sexist doesn't mean just insults, it also can mean they have internal hate and have intentions to limit the opposite gender's opportunities or cause harm (mentally or physically).
    Its a lot worse than you think.
    smh.

    If he was really sexist, he wouldn't even apologised.

    Sexism isn't always intentional. That's already been stated. You are probably sexist throughout your day, but don't even realize it. But women do notice.

    Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

    Girrll, I just mentioned that I am a women.
    smh.

    kitten behavior is sexist.

    nope

    OK, then we've reached the end of this conversation.

  • Shoyoko.7309Shoyoko.7309 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sylv.5324 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    Well then, if it isn't intentional. then it's probably not sexist, probably just dou-che-bag behaviour.

    Sexism isn't entirely a conscious bias, which is why it's such a pain to deal with. I'm not saying sexism was the case here, though

    good point about sexism but again wrong battlefield wrong time.

  • Dreadshow.9320Dreadshow.9320 Member ✭✭✭

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    I res> @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    So you don't know how to search or just read what you want?
    Not in this particular thread but one of the many others:

    @Dreamwolf.7423 said:
    I've seen posts defending her actions and I was to ask this:
    If it had been a man saying those things to a female player, would you be defending their actions then?

    As a female player, I can say that I was ashamed of her interactions with the community. Her language toward them was insulting and rude, and completely uncalled for. If she didn't want to have a discussion about work stuff on her day off on her "personal" account, then she shouldn't have opened the floor by posting what she did. If it was addressed in the AMA that should have been the end of it. But it seems to me that she went out of her way to further discussion about a game related topic and then lost her mind when someone stepped up with opposing ideas and suggestions.

    And...

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:
    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.

    Or maybe I didn't read every post here and asked for help. Also, I've already stated where I disagree with Shoyoko, whose post is ridiculous.

    Ok but there are post from women on the subject that found that womans' comment abusive so you are retracting your comment about being only white males?

    I didn't say that, so there's nothing to retract. But thank you for policing me. How does that make you feel?

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    All I'm seeing through searches about this is a bunch of white men defending other white men. Can someone please help me find some articles and comments from women on this topic?

    At least two women are defending indignation towards her post. And I feel great reading you back peddle and change focus of your comments every second reply is quite entertaining.

    I responded to your post as written. If you intended something else, write that instead.

    So you don't think it's white men defending other white men anymore?

    That is definitely happening.

    Ok is it just that?

    Wow man you just hang on to every little last bit do you? It's not even perseverance anymore, it's desperation.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm only answering the questions according to how you write them. Maybe a thank you would be nice every now and then.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @Sylv.5324 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

    That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

    The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

    She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:
    She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.
    Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

    Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

    Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.
    Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?
    Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.
    I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

    I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

    His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

    Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree slighty". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

    I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

    Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

    That's not what I said, Karl.

    You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

    No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

    It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

    So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

    And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

    I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

    You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else think, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

    As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

    Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can. You're the one who decided to wade in.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @Sylv.5324 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

    That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

    The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

    She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:
    She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.
    Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

    Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

    Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.
    Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?
    Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.
    I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

    I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

    His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

    Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree slighty". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

    I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

    Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

    That's not what I said, Karl.

    You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

    No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

    It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

    So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

    And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

    I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

    You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else think, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

    As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

    Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can. You're the one who decided to wade in.

    There is no need to make a case if the case doesn't exist at all. You say there is a case of sexism that exist in deroir's feedback however we can't see and you can't see it. Then it's probably not sexism.

    I can clearly see it. Just because you can't doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I'm seeing pattern here.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @Sylv.5324 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

    That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

    The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

    She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:
    She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.
    Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

    Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

    Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.
    Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?
    Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.
    I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

    I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

    His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

    Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree slighty". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

    I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

    Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

    That's not what I said, Karl.

    You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

    No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

    It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

    So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

    And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

    I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

    You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else think, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

    As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

    Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can.

    You haven't made any case at all. If you think I've erred, feel free to point it out. You're the one making an accusation against another person here., By any convention of philosophy, reason, or just social convention, it's on you to make your case. You've accused someone of being sexist and over many hours and who knows how many words You haven't made that case once. Of course, now you accuse me of cherrypicking but I have no doubt that you will neither be able nor willing to point out what I've actually cherrypicked.

    Insisting that you've done so doesn't actually make it come true.

    You decided to enter this conversation. I've stated my case already multiple times. Get all the facts, which means reading through my past posts in this thread. Don't expect me to do it for you. Seriously, this tactic of yours is tiresome. Come into the conversation with genuine intentions or leave people be.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @Sylv.5324 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

    That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

    The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

    She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:
    She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.
    Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

    Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

    Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.
    Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?
    Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.
    I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

    I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

    His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

    Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree slighty". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

    I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

    Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

    That's not what I said, Karl.

    You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

    No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

    It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

    So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

    And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

    I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

    You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else think, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

    As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

    Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can.

    You haven't made any case at all. If you think I've erred, feel free to point it out. You're the one making an accusation against another person here., By any convention of philosophy, reason, or just social convention, it's on you to make your case. You've accused someone of being sexist and over many hours and who knows how many words You haven't made that case once. Of course, now you accuse me of cherrypicking but I have no doubt that you will neither be able nor willing to point out what I've actually cherrypicked.

    Insisting that you've done so doesn't actually make it come true.

    You decided to enter this conversation. I've stated my case already multiple times. Get all the facts, which means reading through my past posts in this thread. Don't expect me to do it for you.

    I've looked over, as far as I can tell, the entire material of this thread. Thus far you haven't actually stated any case other than, as I noted, repeating and rewording quite vigorously the manifestations of sexism you think his post took the shape of,. However not once have you supported any of those accusations with fact or logic connecting his post to the requisite conditions of those terms.

    If I were to tell you that there exists, at a finite and most certain point of space and time, equidistant between the orbits of earth and mars, a single, undetectable teapot, and were to simply rest that assertion on the fact that I am aware of its existence, you'd no doubt regard it as baseless nonsense, as you should. You're asking people to prove the negative here, and it's becoming readily apparent that it's not a simple error but based in the fact that no matter how many times you try to reword it, you can't actually support your assertion that he did or said anything actually sexist.

    Great. If you can't find it, then you have nothing to add. Glad we resolved this. Bye!

  • that's a yikes

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Qing Guang.6389 said:
    Wow, I haven't been this disappointed in ANet in... ever.
    Was Jessica's initial response uncalled-for? Yes, I think so.
    Was it unexpected? Not at all. If this was actually behavior ANet didn't approve of... why'd they hire her in the first place? She's acted like this on Twitter for years; it's not like it was hidden - and honestly, given the way men on the internet generally treat her, it's not entirely unjustified.
    It's almost like... ANet just got scared because a Big Name Fan got his feefees hurt.

    I've been involved with Guild Wars since 2006. It was my first MMO and my first online home. I fell away from GW2 for a while because I felt the Living Story was shoddy at first, and I was upset at how the setting had been whitewashed.
    Then, last year, Path of Fire came out, finally meeting my one condition of coming back to the game (let me make realistic looking black characters again), and to top it off, Jessica Price, whom I'd loved from when she worked at Paizo, had joined the company! I pretty much immediately dropped the cash for both expansions and probably at least $50 worth of gems, which is a lot coming from someone on minimum wage. I fell back in love with the world, with the characters. Marvelled at leaps and bounds the game had taken both in writing quality and in representation.

    But it was all just cashing in on underrepresented audiences, apparently? We're just gonna fire two writers, one of whom has been with the company for what, 12 years? 13? because G-d forbid they talk back to a Youtuber? A behavior that the company COULD HAVE EXPECTED given the past several YEARS of behavior from one of them? I can't remember the last time a company just rolled over for the gators that easily.

    Anyway, congrats, ArenaNet. You've burnt 12 years of trust in an instant. At least Blizzard is honest about being bad at the whole all-inclusive thing.

    Yup. Plus, she also clearly stated in her twitter profile what to expect.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Hyper Legend.3421 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course).

    The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

    Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out.

    If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional.

    Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing.

    Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences.

    Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve.

    There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though.

    I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment.
    However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company.
    If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media.

    I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy.
    However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company?

    There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not..
    Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior.

    I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place.

    Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there.
    However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual.

    Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why.

    That's pretty difficult to accomplish when the first thing folks do when they get mad is go straight to a person's employer and try to get them fired. Look at any other person who is ousted over negative comments involving gender, race, religion or nationality. Every time, folks immediately reach out to that person's employer and ask them "Do you condone this?" If the person isn't fired, people start boycotting.

    It's become the American way.

    It becomes an issue when you deviate from being a company ambassador of integrity to that of something personal, as if your customers are attacking you directly.

    I'm not sure if you read the entire argument, but she should've seen it coming. She made a mistake by bringing up company business in a private Twitter. If you want to share your political beliefs and opinions of similar sort in a social media venue, that's cool; however, once you start bringing your work into it, your opinions are now becoming reflected on behalf of your company. Surely she didn't intend to be the voice of ArenaNet in her words, but she made it so by starting a topic related to her job, then proceeding to get nasty with people.

    This is why you shouldn't talk about work on social media unless it's your job. Keep work at work, your outside life to yourself, and let the kitten go to the people in your life that care to lend an ear - NOT to your customers.

    And look, they had two ways they could've handled this. They could've let her apologize and keep her around on watch of what she says, or they could've gotten rid of her. From what I've read, JP has been toxic to the community for years. Her Twitter banner is even an indicator of this. She has low-tolerance toward people and is quick to become hostile. Chances are she would've been forced to apologize just to save face, only to grow bitter at the playerbase for trying to get her terminated.

    People were threatening to jump ship if ArenaNet didn't terminate her - myself included. I have to deal with enough political drama through the media and Hollywood; the last thing I want are salty developers hiding behind their irrelevant ideologies during simple conversation with honest, genuine players that want to have a conversation.

    I say MO did the right thing. Either way, it wasn't an easy decision, but keeping toxicity out lets fresh air in.

    I did the read the entire thing and the problem stems from Derior incorrectly determining that the tweet was open for discussion...it wasn't and I could tell it wasn't open for discussion. Sounds like we need to teach people how to understand context when reading as well, though context is part of reading comprehension, which is difficult if you're not a native English speaker(don't know whether or not Derior is) and you're trying to understand something written in English...you won't get the context.

    A point made in a public forum is open for discussion.

    That's BS, it's only open for discussion if you want to ignore the context...which is bad comprehension skills, or ignoring the context entirely. Obviously we're never going to agree on this so at this point we should just let it go...and I'm not changing my opinion. ArenaNet had the perfect opportunity to set the community straight on personal vs professional, but instead chose the easy way out...like all companies do. The customer is not always right, and sometimes they need to be told that.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Alfador.7649 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @Sylv.5324 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?

    That's a legal term that not even the courts take seriously, so it doesn't have anything to do with anything.

    The term is not just legal it's also a saying that you shouldn't assume too quickly and accuse someone without evidence or "receipts".

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @Shoyoko.7309 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:

    @mixxed.5862 said:
    I'm disgusted by this community's reaction to her tweet, calling for her to be fired and being genuinely happy about it afterwards. To me it's simply inconceivable how so many could overreact like that to blow this matter this massively out of proportion.

    She obviously perceived herself as being treated in a sexist way and called it out. It doesn't matter whether this indeed was the case or not, because it is very understandable how she could arrive at that conclusion:
    She posts a long, well thought out comment explaining why it's state of the art in the MMORPG genre to present the player character the way they do. A hardcore fan chimes in to "politely" tell her he disagrees and suggests to implement branching story lines as if she was a complete amateur and never heard of it. That fan implied she as a dev on the narrative team was incompetent at her job to then kindly tell her how to do it better. He probably didn't mean to but this is what you'll take from his comment when you read on the relationship and appeal layer from her perspective instead of taking it purely as factual (if you're not familiar with the four-sides model of communication you probably won't be able to make sense of this). Given the fact it was posted on her personal twitter account and the outlined context, she wasn't wrong in taking the comment as a personal slight. She then reacted accordingly.
    Women wrongfully being regarded as less competent than they really are is a VERY common symptom of sexism in our society. This happens even despite them having years of professional expertise and for no other reason than their gender. It unmistakably is sexism, although in a more subtle way and therefore in many cases hard to detect.

    Imo her reaction was perfectly understandable - although it was unprofessional. She shouldn't have replied to criticism on her own twitter account like a private person.

    Thank you! A thousand times this! Many may not understand where she's coming from, but that doesn't make her wrong.

    The definition of sexism:
    prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

    Now please tell me, where did Deroir imply that his comment was influenced by her gender. Even as a woman, I can see that it was clear that if anything, she could have taken it as a personal slight workwise at most but there was never any indication that his comment was negative due to her gender anywhere. What Jessica Price did was verbally one of harshest thing you could to someone which was implying Deroir a sexist.
    Imagine if I was the one who wrote the piece, Deroir replied the same way and I called him racist. Pretty harsh right?! That's how harsh calling someone sexist is. It's literally one of the worst labels you could give someone, especially to someone like Deroir who was not only a gw2 player, he was a partner of Anet?! What happen to "innocent until proven guilty"?
    Whilst you have point about the current sexism in our society, this is clearly not the right battlefield for such debate rather the only reason we are having this conversation is due to JP's accusation and nothing else.
    I believe she was too quick to judge and was naive to believe that any tweets in her private twitter would gain attention and responses from GW2 players even though she was clearly talking about GW2 and her bio mentions arenanet.

    I don't think so at all. Deroir did come across as a sexist. If he wasn't, he would have recognized how his comments could have been taken that way and apologized. It's really that simple.

    His post was a clear case of mansplaining with a touch of negging, which is totally sexist.

    Oh come on, it was clear for anyone to see not just deroir that she could have been uncomfortable of his feedback ** workwise **, even deroir did ever so carefully to frame his feedback constructive and politely when he said "allow me to disagree slighty". Again, where is the indication that it was due to gender?

    I stated it in the last sentence of my post. His post if unintentionally sexist, was still sexist do to ignorance in communicating with women.

    Disagreeing with someone's opinions, ideas, etc is not sexist unless the reason for disagreement is the sex of that someone.

    That's not what I said, Karl.

    You said his post was sexist. His post was a disagreement with her position and a suggestion of his own.

    No sexism unless you can demonstrate that he made his points because she was female. Rick?

    It's a reference to Karl Rove's playbook, which you are using a bit too blatantly. I may respond to a real response in the future.

    So in other words you can't actually demonstrate how anything he said is sexist. You just want us to take your word for it I guess? Giving polite feedback to someone speaking openly in a public forum meant specifically for interaction (seriously twitter is pretty much the worst possible media for her to pick if she didn't want responses) is not sexist just because the party receiving the feedback is a woman. By that completely absurd standard you're using here, women are functionally immune to criticism in all situations from roughly half the human population.

    And no just saying it was "clearly mansplaining" doesn't magically make it so. Mansplaining, like it or not, has a specific implication, that the explanation happened on the basis of gender. There is zero reason other than a hostile and bad faith assumption on your part to believe that his feedback would have been any different had JP's gender been unknown or had she in fact been male.

    I stated it several times in previous posts. If you are truly interested go through those and come back with a rational response. If you're polite, I might even reply.

    You haven't actually explained in any way how it is sexist. Attempting to revise your own history doesn't change that. You've found about 17 different ways to say that you think it is sexist and to claim it is obvious but it hasn't been articulated, once. You said it was "clear mansplaining." That's not explaining how it's sexist, especially since it's not true. You also accused him of "negging," again with zero attempt to articulate it, likely, as with the mainsplaining accusation, because it can't be supported by the facts. Failing to recognize that someone else think, erroneously, that he was being sexist, isn't the same as being sexist. Literally anyone can take literally any statement to be offensive. The only way to insulate yourself from that is not to speak at all. So no, you haven't actually articulated one single way that he was sexist. Rewording and repeating the premise over and over is not an explanation.

    As for whether or not you deem me worthy of a reply... do as you will. It makes little difference to me. If you truly are able to support that position with facts, I'm sure you'd want to do so for the benefit of your own point. If not, well it's your call whether you want to continue to spin this in circles or not.

    Cherrypicking my posts doesn't change the fact that all you are saying is that I am wrong. If you really believe that, the burden of proof is on you. I've made my case, it's all there. Make yours, if you can.

    You haven't made any case at all. If you think I've erred, feel free to point it out. You're the one making an accusation against another person here., By any convention of philosophy, reason, or just social convention, it's on you to make your case. You've accused someone of being sexist and over many hours and who knows how many words You haven't made that case once. Of course, now you accuse me of cherrypicking but I have no doubt that you will neither be able nor willing to point out what I've actually cherrypicked.

    Insisting that you've done so doesn't actually make it come true.

    You decided to enter this conversation. I've stated my case already multiple times. Get all the facts, which means reading through my past posts in this thread. Don't expect me to do it for you.

    I've looked over, as far as I can tell, the entire material of this thread. Thus far you haven't actually stated any case other than, as I noted, repeating and rewording quite vigorously the manifestations of sexism you think his post took the shape of,. However not once have you supported any of those accusations with fact or logic connecting his post to the requisite conditions of those terms.

    If I were to tell you that there exists, at a finite and most certain point of space and time, equidistant between the orbits of earth and mars, a single, undetectable teapot, and were to simply rest that assertion on the fact that I am aware of its existence, you'd no doubt regard it as baseless nonsense, as you should. You're asking people to prove the negative here, and it's becoming readily apparent that it's not a simple error but based in the fact that no matter how many times you try to reword it, you can't actually support your assertion that he did or said anything actually sexist.

    Great. If you can't find it, then you have nothing to add. Glad we resolved this. Bye!

    As observant and skilled as I tend to believe I am, even I am not arrogant enough claim to find things that don't exist. As long as this "resolution" functions as your admission that you haven't actually supported your claim of sexist with fact, I guess it's resolved. I will sleep easy knowing that the fabric of reality is still intact and that things that do no exist still cannot be found.

    It's there. You haven't found it. If you did, you could make an argument against it that I'd entertain. But you don't want to do that. You just want to attack me and say "Because you won't refute me just saying you are wrong, you are wrong." Seriously, it's an obvious tactic. Come back when you have something to contribute.

  • So...
    I see a lot of people talking about how this was either one of the best PR moves ever or absolutely horrible. For me it was an experience in that the extreme side of Tumblr actually exists in places other than Tumblr. I saw someone talking about how firing over a tweet sets a precedent, yet that's already been done with Justine Sacco -- and her tweet was a joke, not a result from yet another extraordinarily toxic mindset that's made its way into the world.

    Either way, I do appreciate the swift reaction and response to this incident. I've always played GW2 for the community, and it's lovely to grow old enough to start actually appreciate the work that goes into cultivating it.

    -A dedicated fan

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @SepiaBrownie.7504 said:
    I just found out about this today. I'm really confused on why she responded the way she did. The dude kept his opinion constructive and polite??? Her response just came off as combative and toxic. idk, it sucks that she was terminated but I side with Anet's decision on this. Insinuating sexism just because it was a guy is just....yikes. Anyway, It doesn't take a chef to know if food taste good or bad. Not saying all criticism is valid but, some of it should at least be considered.

    While I agree that her posts were a bit much (not enough to be fired over), Deroir was being condescending and rude when he implied that she was overlooking something obvious and stating that that was why her writing is ineffectual. I will buy that his intention was to add to the conversion, but the way he did it was not nice at all. Showing up to someone's private twitter account and trashing their work is really rude.

    Neither of them came out clean on this, but at the end of the day, she lost her job and got unprecedented levels of vitriol on these forums.

  • Jitsuryoku.9038Jitsuryoku.9038 Member ✭✭
    edited July 6, 2018

    I couldn't find the original conversation in reddit soup of deleted hurt feelings, but I think I got the gist of it.
    I think I would rather see those employees get publicly ridiculed (on reddit) for bringing up gender in a non gendered topic and maybe a penalty (such as unpaid leave) at work for bad PR and such. I mean if this situation escalated to this height, it probably means that somebody that got kitten in a similar fashion the devs did. I am guessing somebody, who did not even get addressed (and maybe did not even participate in coversation), felt personally attacked.
    Then again, I have no idea how the internal dialog with those employees went - maybe they just turned aggressive against HR people (or whoever interviewed them after).

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Hyper Legend.3421 said:

    @Tolmos.8395 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:

    @Ashen.2907 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    Actually, I'm disappointed in ArenaNet...and the vast majority of the GW community as well...this is 2018, we all need to move into the now and start learning to separate a persons freedom of speech on PERSONAL social media from what they say on BUSINESS related social media. This actually extends beyond social media and includes sports personal conduct clauses...what you or anyone does on their own PERSONAL time does not reflect on how well they perform a job. I'm going to be quite unpopular with the following, but all of this really started with the Ray Rice thing(look it up if you don't know about that) and the NFL. Now, before you think I condone any type of abuse against another person you'd be so far from the truth it would make me laugh, but having said that, even though what he did to his girlfriend in an elevator during the off-season was atrocious, I do not think it was anyone's business but his and hers alone. If you're going to hold someone else up as a role model, society has a serious issue, the only role models should be your parents(if you have them of course).

    The only way society is going to advance is this way: what you do at work or while representing your employer is directly related to that employer; what you do or say on your own PERSONAL time has nothing to do with your employer and until the rest of the world learns this we're all screwed(that even includes if you reference your employer on your own PERSONAL social media handles). I DO NOT CARE what someone does on their own time, nor should anyone else but that person, even the employer should not care what that person does on their own PERSONAL time, but we as a society have forgotten how to separate work from personal time...that is what work hours are for, so those people unable to tell the difference can.

    Wake up world, this is 2018, not 1984 or 1950 or anyone other year...time to evolve or die out.

    If the person, on their own time and personal social media accounts, is actively promoting themself as a company representative then they have decided to erase the line between personal and professional.

    Like I said, that's old school thinking, which almost everyone is still doing...either humankind evolves or it dies out, until humankind can learn to separate personal time from employee time...we as a society are screwed. I do not care if you mention in your private personal social media accounts who you work for, those are for your own private thoughts, I'm smart enough to realize they do not reflect the company you work for, but as we've all seen...there is another single person in America that is smart enough to be able to do that. I won't speak for the rest of the world...let me put my thinking into a simple example...I wear a uniform at work, while I'm wearing that uniform I am representing my employer, the minute I take off any part of the uniform that identifies my employer I am no on my PERSONAL time and I should be allowed to say anything I want that isn't illegal...even if completely contradicts my employers public image...that is the state the world needs to be in, separate the individual from the job, they are not the same thing.

    Right, but the person who chose to not separate the personal time from the professional was her. She chose to not evolve, as you put it, and suffered the, very unfortunate, consequences.

    Apparently you're unable to comprehend what I'm saying...it isn't only the poster that has to do that, it's also the reader...EVERYONE needs to separate personal time from professional time, even if you list your professional associations on your PERSONAL social media...that is what I am saying. Let me put it this way, say you work an 8 - 5 job, what you say during those 8 - 5 hours reflects on your employer...anything you say outside of those hours, unless you're at a function representing your employer are your PERSONAL opinions and have no reflection on your employer....that is how we as a society need to evolve.

    There's a very obvious fine line on this limitation though.

    I agree with the seperation of work and private life.. I've even said it myself in a previous comment.
    However the company/employee line can only be seperated by the individual not the company.
    If the individual chooses to affiliate their private social media with their place of employment then whether they like it or not their work and home lives are no longer seperate on their social media.

    I think I can speak for everyone here when I say that none of us think that what JP said on her personal social media in any way reflects Anet as a company.. that would just be crazy.
    However how can we expect Anet to maintain it's great reputation as an open an welcoming company that values and respects all its customers equally without prejudice when one of their employees is actively abusing the company's customers on a social media account that also happens to be directly affiliated to their company?

    There's just no way any company can tolerate that kind of behavior and disrespect from an employee.. on the clock or not, personal media account or not..
    Public affiliation demands similar responsibilities and an employee that choses to represent their employer in their personal time needs to be held accountable for any and all negative publicity they bring towards the company that employs them through their behavior.

    I do not agree with the things JP said but I do support her right to say those things and had she done so on a personal social media account that was not affiliated with Anet Almost none of us would even have known about it in the first place and chances are the original comments that started this mess probably wouldn't have even happened either since the vast majority of her followers are Anet customers and would not be following her in the first place.

    Seperation of work and private life is definitely the best way to go we're very much agreed there.
    However this is and should always be the responsibility of the individual.

    Here's were you an I disagree...it should not be the individuals responsibility, it should be the companies responsibility to know the difference...after all, why do so many companies put out notices saying that the comments of so and so do not reflect the beliefs of this company? That tells me that companies already realize people are entitled to their opinions, but I actually do find fault with the other person in this case...and I've read what caused the uproar, that post was not an invitation to open a dialogue...it was a list of the facts stating why ArenaNet is constrained in telling the story they way they do...no where in that post did I see an invitation to offer an alternative or even open up a dialogue about it. I'm not sure how this Derior person is or if they're a native English speaker, but if they aren't then that could've been the problem, not understanding the context of the post, it wasn't an open invitation for discussion...it was more like a dissertation...this is how it is and why.

    That's pretty difficult to accomplish when the first thing folks do when they get mad is go straight to a person's employer and try to get them fired. Look at any other person who is ousted over negative comments involving gender, race, religion or nationality. Every time, folks immediately reach out to that person's employer and ask them "Do you condone this?" If the person isn't fired, people start boycotting.

    It's become the American way.

    It becomes an issue when you deviate from being a company ambassador of integrity to that of something personal, as if your customers are attacking you directly.

    I'm not sure if you read the entire argument, but she should've seen it coming. She made a mistake by bringing up company business in a private Twitter. If you want to share your political beliefs and opinions of similar sort in a social media venue, that's cool; however, once you start bringing your work into it, your opinions are now becoming reflected on behalf of your company. Surely she didn't intend to be the voice of ArenaNet in her words, but she made it so by starting a topic related to her job, then proceeding to get nasty with people.

    This is why you shouldn't talk about work on social media unless it's your job. Keep work at work, your outside life to yourself, and let the kitten go to the people in your life that care to lend an ear - NOT to your customers.

    And look, they had two ways they could've handled this. They could've let her apologize and keep her around on watch of what she says, or they could've gotten rid of her. From what I've read, JP has been toxic to the community for years. Her Twitter banner is even an indicator of this. She has low-tolerance toward people and is quick to become hostile. Chances are she would've been forced to apologize just to save face, only to grow bitter at the playerbase for trying to get her terminated.

    People were threatening to jump ship if ArenaNet didn't terminate her - myself included. I have to deal with enough political drama through the media and Hollywood; the last thing I want are salty developers hiding behind their irrelevant ideologies during simple conversation with honest, genuine players that want to have a conversation.

    I say MO did the right thing. Either way, it wasn't an easy decision, but keeping toxicity out lets fresh air in.

    I did the read the entire thing and the problem stems from Derior incorrectly determining that the tweet was open for discussion...it wasn't and I could tell it wasn't open for discussion. Sounds like we need to teach people how to understand context when reading as well, though context is part of reading comprehension, which is difficult if you're not a native English speaker(don't know whether or not Derior is) and you're trying to understand something written in English...you won't get the context.

    A point made in a public forum is open for discussion.

    That's BS, it's only open for discussion if you want to ignore the context...which is bad comprehension skills, or ignoring the context entirely. Obviously we're never going to agree on this so at this point we should just let it go...and I'm not changing my opinion. ArenaNet had the perfect opportunity to set the community straight on personal vs professional, but instead chose the easy way out...like all companies do. The customer is not always right, and sometimes they need to be told that.

    Nope. If you use a public forum to sound off publicly then you invite response from the public. JP chose to erase the line between private and professional. ANet has no ability to prevent this other than taking action after the fact.

    She works for Anet. They don't own her. Deroir had every right to post what he did. It was horrible, but she did have an open conversation. That does not mean that she has to accept that kind of behavior. He post was basically, "I think you're writing sucks. Now smile for me." And a large, toxic group of the fanbase got upset that a woman defended herself and just didn't take the abuse.

  • DaShi.1368DaShi.1368 Member ✭✭✭

    @Morg.5986 said:

    @DaShi.1368 said:
    Deroir was being condescending and rude

    Do you have a single fact to back that up?

    Yes, the part of my post that you didn't include. :rolleyes:

  • melodyca.8921melodyca.8921 Member ✭✭

    @Batelle.1680 said:
    Yeah, I'm kind of on the fence about staying with GW2. Do I think this entire thing was stupid and poorly handled by the persons fired? Yeah. Do I think that the misunderstanding was entirely baseless, given what I know/have seen female devs go through on a daily basis? Nah. Personally, I think an apology would have been the way to go. As it stands now, it seems like something that's going to emboldened the type of people who are deliberately and openly sexist/racist/homophobic, which is the last thing we need in general. I understand why Anet felt like they had to take action, I just think it was too extreme and, to me, it sends the opposite of a comforting message.

    I have already seen the abuse happen today in-game because of this.