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  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    No, it would have been a reinforcement of sexism had they not fired JP.

    She is a woman in the video game industry. Every day men with no expertise tell her how to do her job. Its not sexist to call them out on it.

    It is sexist when you assume this is the cause for feedback.
    It's absolutely not different than having a sexist man assumes a dev is less competent because they're a woman.
    Or maybe you simply disagree that people should be able to provide feedback, but then it's not a gender issue at all.
    In each case, you don't have a rational point.
    And I dare to say, what you're saying can be true whether it's a man on woman, man and man, woman and woman, woman and man. This being used as a defense is why things were blew out of proportion.

    Do you have expertise at all to tell how a company CEO should react to an employee blowing things out of proportions, twisting narratives, and calling people sexist even though not ALL players disagreeing with her is a man?

    We live in a gray world. It's not all black and white.

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    Anything is possible I guess.

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    No, it would have been a reinforcement of sexism had they not fired JP.

    She is a woman in the video game industry. Every day men with no expertise tell her how to do her job. Its not sexist to call them out on it.

    Only nobody told her how to do her job, if you read the actual tweets and not read what polygon/kotaku are telling.

  • Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    No, it would have been a reinforcement of sexism had they not fired JP.

    She is a woman in the video game industry. Every day men with no expertise tell her how to do her job. Its not sexist to call them out on it.

    That is BS, Every publicly dev gets this treatment, its not sexism to hold an opinion on someone else's work and give them feedback!
    It can get annoying, but there is nothing actually wrong about it.
    Expertise is no reason to shut down or ignore suggestions either, since laypeople are actually pretty good at thinking outside the box without the restraints of said experience. And in games, most feedback should be welcomed, games should always be for the people since its an entertainment medium.

    Either way, the only Thing I learned about JP thought this is shes a pretty good journalistic fiction writer.

  • Soa Cirri.6012Soa Cirri.6012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Tommo Chocolate.5870 said:
    I'm not arguing that maths is not abstract. You seemed to be trying to argue (though maybe I misinterpreted) that it's impossible to prove whether an ethical belief is right or wrong because ethics is abstract. The point I was trying to make was that maths is abstract but it is possible to prove whether (some) mathematical statements are true or false, so it can't be the abstractness of ethics that prevents one from proving things about it.

    I called maths abstract in the same sense that ethics are abstract, and you characterized that as a "misuse" of the word abstract. Proofs within maths depend upon being derived from maths, just as proofs within ethics depend upon being derived from ethics. In other words, you can't prove something in maths by a concrete authority independent of maths, just as you can't prove something within ethics by a concrete authority independent of ethics. In either case, you must agree to ascribe to the abstraction to make any logical arguments within it, and there is no concrete external force of maths or ethics which demands that you adhere to one system of logic or another. In this quality, they share the characteristic of being abstract. I don't see how that can be any more clear.

    As for what I was trying to argue, it was nothing of the sort. I was arguing that JP was essentially fired for her beliefs and speech—which are intrinsic to her personal conception of ethics. Namely, something like "if sexism is used against you, you should retaliate insultingly." As an observer I cannot know what her ethics truly are, though I have the same basis for judgment as anyone else in this thread, (and my estimation is also reinforced by her more extended interviews to various media outlets). While I would say it is at best paranoid, and at worst delusional, for her to conclude "sexism" from Deroir at all, let alone to the degree that she has, we cannot prove that she did not personally derive that conclusion. But while logical arguments can be made against her ethics, no one can prove that she doesn't believe them. I was not arguing for moral relativism, only that everyone has a "right" to be "wrong" meta-ethically because to attempt to police people's ethics is itself normatively unethical.

    To punish someone for their profession of belief is to assert that your beliefs are correct, and theirs aren't. (emphasis not in original)

    Many arguments in this thread have asserted that JP was justifiably fired for acting in accordance with her personal ethics, when the worst of her behavior amounted merely to speech. And "Speech," I believe, in addition to ethics (and certain bills of rights would comport with that belief) is another area where you have the "right" to be "wrong."

    Now, I can see how the following could have been interpreted as moral relativism, and I apologize for being unclear:

    You're asserting that she's wrong, and you're right. But how do you prove that exactly? The more abstract the belief is, the more impossible it becomes to prove.

    The context was specifically for claiming the moral authority to punish someone over holding and professing divergent beliefs, which requires "proving" them wrong with justifiable, independent authority (I did not mean to refer to proofs within the abstraction). Therefore only authority which can be construed in this case would be popular (general consensus)—but authority derived from consensus is not an ethical authority.

    As I said, this was a matter of philosophy, not maths.

    So back to reductio ad absurdum. What Ephamiel essentially said was, "If JP is entitled to attack someone because she holds a belief that is wrong, then she's entitled to attack someone if she holds the belief that 2+2=7."

    reductio ad absurdum is a form of argument which attempts... to disprove a statement by showing it inevitably leads to a ridiculous, absurd, or impractical conclusion

    That seems to me to be a clear attempt at reductio ad absurdum.

    @Edge.4180 said:
    if someone's looking at this from the perspective that Price's behavior was bad enough (in Mo's judgement) to warrant firing, and by that logic Fries's punishment should have thereby been something less severe.. well that's understandable. But it's also possible that Fries's behavior was actually bad enough (in Mo's judgement) to warrant firing

    It's entirely possible that MO merely thought PF was "bad enough;" yet for him to react that way given the vast difference between both offenders, not only in character but in value to the company, suggests a sort of myopic kind of decision-making. Everyone screws up. If someone has a major screw up once in two years, yes, that might be part of a pattern. Once in over 12 years, a screw up not as bad as the other? This is entire thread has become about approving or disapproving of MO's judgment on the matter, and as you admit, it is "understandable" to object to PF's receiving as harsh a punishment as JP.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    There is however quite a wide margin of interpretation there.

    Okay let's break this down.

    "Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company." -MO

    "attacks on the community were unacceptable"
    "as a result" = therefore
    "they’re" = both of them are
    "no longer with the company"
    According to MO, A (the attacks on the community) demanded (therefore) B (the response of removing them). To interpret that any other way is as much of a stretch as the guy saying Deroir could be reasonably interpreted as condescending in his remarks to JP.

    I know, that i'd have been instantly fired from my job if i caused PR disaster on this scale.
    "no communication communication policy" exactly because he feared things like that would happen.

    Speaking of PR disasters, this has fueled a games-industry-wide and highly critical examination of Anet which MO's lack of communication policy is only making worse. At this point it seems very likely, simply from a PR standpoint, that firing JP alone will have more extended repercussions than if she hadn't been fired. If this is whole thing is about minimizing damage, it would seem something of a Pyrrhic victory.

    This only goes to emphasize that "MO decided it, and he's in charge so he must be right," may not in fact be a justifiable premise.

  • Dreadshow.9320Dreadshow.9320 Member ✭✭✭

    @Harper.4173 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @Harper.4173 said:

    @RoseofGilead.8907 said:

    @Harper.4173 said:
    And that's where people are wrong. Those titles might have meant something remotely positive maybe 20 or 30 years ago. Today as far as I see it they're a massive red flag. And by that I mean that statistically speaking - you have very good odds of finding someone who's completely unreasonable label themselves as such. Better odds than finding a decent human being.
    Maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm biased but as far as I've seen it - it seems to be the case. I guess all the normal people are more quiet and don't need to make everything into their personal crusade?

    Yes, that does sound biased.

    My bias keeps me nice and safe.
    Bias and stereotype are defensive mechanisms - people have them in order to avoid things that are unpleasant.
    I don't really understand why they're seen as bad - when most of the times they are going to keep you safe.

    I really don't understand the hate on stereotypes given the alternative is one monotype. And if Roger Watters and Pink Floyd thought us anything is that we don't want one monotype.

    It's not about hating people for being different - it's about recognizing that people who are different in certain ways are more likely to behave in some way or another. Using this you can predict their possible behavior easily at a glance and save yourself a lot of trouble and unpleasant interaction. It might not be something that's relevant in your part of the world but it certainly is where I'm from.
    I'd look forward to seeing "unprejudiced" people having a good time with some of the people around where I live.

    Also I don't know how some entertainers are of any relevance when it comes to figuring out what is good and what isn't. I do hope you don't live your life following the advice of such individuals, seeing how every month or so we find out the absolute wrecked state of the lives they live through some suicide, overdose or other unfortunate event.

    All I'm saying is if we did not have Stereotypes we would all be the same droning about doing the exact samething their would be only one type of humans... The movie 1984 comes to mind. That world would be horrible to live in if you ask me.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @Soa Cirri.6012 said:
    Speaking of PR disasters, this has fueled a games-industry-wide and highly critical examination of Anet which MO's lack of communication policy is only making worse. At this point it seems very likely, simply from a PR standpoint, that firing JP alone will have more extended repercussions than if she hadn't been fired. If this is whole thing is about minimizing damage, it would seem something of a Pyrrhic victory.

    Only you don't know what kind of PR disaster this could've been if JP wasn't fired...
    A PR disaster with the actual paying customers of this game and not some random other companies if I may add.

  • BlaqueFyre.5678BlaqueFyre.5678 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    And I am disappointed that you defend her ridiculous attack on a community member who was very respectful in his reply and instantly got the gender card pulled on him. There is nothing worse for women than women who just pull that gender card as soon as they hear something they don't like or read things into a post that objectively aren't there.

    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    Please pinpoint in the three tweets by the Deroir where they were telling her how to do her job, or where they were being sexist as you put it, or where he was being demeaning in any way, you can find the links to the original tweets in the thread.

  • IndigoSundown.5419IndigoSundown.5419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. -- Santayana

  • Soa Cirri.6012Soa Cirri.6012 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Only you don't know what kind of PR disaster this could've been if JP wasn't fired...

    I don't know for sure, that's true. But neither do you. Neither does anyone. That's the point.

    There is an assumption that some sort of GW2 apocalypse would come about had MO done anything but fire her and Peter. But there is no evidence that would happen. As I pointed out before, GW2 has undergone far, far worse crises that have affected the entire community (not just the people who go on twitter and Reddit), for which no one was punished, and the game somehow survived. This is a tempest in a teapot, and yet from the way people are characterizing it, the game's survival is purported to hinge upon it. Given the entire context of the game, I don't think that perspective is strictly rational.

  • @BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    And I am disappointed that you defend her ridiculous attack on a community member who was very respectful in his reply and instantly got the gender card pulled on him. There is nothing worse for women than women who just pull that gender card as soon as they hear something they don't like or read things into a post that objectively aren't there.

    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    Please pinpoint in the three tweets by the Deroir where he was telling her how to do her job, or where they were being sexist as you put it, or where he was being demeaning in any way, you can find the links to the original tweets in the thread.

    the problem with them using microaggression is, microaggression is a buzzword which can mean anything, and as such allows anything said to become negative regardless of their intent, framing, or even reality.
    In fact them saying. "Look up microaggression." Would be a microaggression if you were a minority, since it could be inferred to be talking down to them.
    Basically 'Microaggression', while having a true usage in the past has become so watered down, it is a meaningless word which only shadows its true usage form.
    Microaggression was a word that was created simply as an affirmative action against minorities, and in itself... is kind of racist.

  • timetopat.7921timetopat.7921 Member ✭✭✭

    So I’d like to make a formal apology to gw2 forum moderation. When the news of this broke i thought the large online presence of people on Reddit had a hand in this and made a snarky thread about how people could do that to raid team or other groups. I was wrong and thread was mean spirited. I now understand after reading some interviews with Anet about how and why what happened happened.

  • @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    No, it would have been a reinforcement of sexism had they not fired JP.

    She is a woman in the video game industry. Every day men with no expertise tell her how to do her job. Its not sexist to call them out on it.

    It is sexist when you assume this is the cause for feedback.
    It's absolutely not different than having a sexist man assumes a dev is less competent because they're a woman.
    Or maybe you simply disagree that people should be able to provide feedback, but then it's not a gender issue at all.
    In each case, you don't have a rational point.
    And I dare to say, what you're saying can be true whether it's a man on woman, man and man, woman and woman, woman and man. This being used as a defense is why things were blew out of proportion.

    Do you have expertise at all to tell how a company CEO should react to an employee blowing things out of proportions, twisting narratives, and calling people sexist even though not ALL players disagreeing with her is a man?

    We live in a gray world. It's not all black and white.

    notallplayers

    Not sure what your point is. Care to explain?

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    And I am disappointed that you defend her ridiculous attack on a community member who was very respectful in his reply and instantly got the gender card pulled on him. There is nothing worse for women than women who just pull that gender card as soon as they hear something they don't like or read things into a post that objectively aren't there.

    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    And I am disappointed that you defend her ridiculous attack on a community member who was very respectful in his reply and instantly got the gender card pulled on him. There is nothing worse for women than women who just pull that gender card as soon as they hear something they don't like or read things into a post that objectively aren't there.

    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    Sexism isn't a one way street. Sexism is -usually- against women but that doesn't mean always. Especially in light of the arguments being thrown around in support of JP.
    What you're doing is typically sexism. You'll understand if you drop the double standard.

    welcome to the new age of "marginalization"(in quotes because that is not always what the people are imo) defence. Any "marginalized" group are the only thing an ISM (racisim, sexism) can happen to.
    Basically they want to be the only victims, but also want to be jerks themselves with no repercussions of their actions.
    I wish I was making this up too.

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • Soa Cirri.6012Soa Cirri.6012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    Sweet summer child: you've wandered into a den of hungry lions. I'm afraid you will find no refuge here.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Soa Cirri.6012 said:
    There is an assumption that some sort of GW2 apocalypse would come about had MO done anything but fire her and Peter. But there is no evidence that would happen. As I pointed out before, GW2 has undergone far, far worse crises that have affected the entire community (not just the people who go on twitter and Reddit), for which no one was punished, and the game somehow survived. This is a tempest in a teapot, and yet from the way people are characterizing it, the game's survival is purported to hinge upon it. Given the entire context of the game, I don't think that perspective is strictly rational.

    Those "crisis" were parts of decisions by the Arenanet team, discussed by the developers at length, even involving higher ups maybe? Like the Mount Adoption or the introduction of Ascended gear tiers? There is difference between something being a decision of multiple people, after healthy discussion and someone actively attacking the community. Price remaining unpunished would send a clear message, especially to her personally, that she can attack and harass anyone without provocation. Was firing the best option? Maybe not, but I'm willing to bet Jessica Price would never publicly apologize and acknowledge her fault, there is zero evidence by her past attitude AND her attitude after being fired, that would suggest she'd show any kind of remorse. So I don't think that option existed, even though it would've been the better option.

  • Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    discussion has no cutoff point, it only ends when everyone loses interest in it.

  • @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

    Or download ftp?

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • Deihnyx.6318Deihnyx.6318 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Deihnyx.6318 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Dashingsteel.3410 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    No, it would have been a reinforcement of sexism had they not fired JP.

    She is a woman in the video game industry. Every day men with no expertise tell her how to do her job. Its not sexist to call them out on it.

    It is sexist when you assume this is the cause for feedback.
    It's absolutely not different than having a sexist man assumes a dev is less competent because they're a woman.
    Or maybe you simply disagree that people should be able to provide feedback, but then it's not a gender issue at all.
    In each case, you don't have a rational point.
    And I dare to say, what you're saying can be true whether it's a man on woman, man and man, woman and woman, woman and man. This being used as a defense is why things were blew out of proportion.

    Do you have expertise at all to tell how a company CEO should react to an employee blowing things out of proportions, twisting narratives, and calling people sexist even though not ALL players disagreeing with her is a man?

    We live in a gray world. It's not all black and white.

    notallplayers

    Not sure what your point is. Care to explain?

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    And I am disappointed that you defend her ridiculous attack on a community member who was very respectful in his reply and instantly got the gender card pulled on him. There is nothing worse for women than women who just pull that gender card as soon as they hear something they don't like or read things into a post that objectively aren't there.

    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    @Cerethon.8250 said:

    @Gehenna.3625 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    I'm very disappointed with anets decision on this. I've played for years and the community has been so much more pleasant than other games. However, this is a blatant reinforcement of the pervasive sexism and harassment that is ubiquitous in the gaming world. I really thought anet and the guild wars community was better than this.

    And I am disappointed that you defend her ridiculous attack on a community member who was very respectful in his reply and instantly got the gender card pulled on him. There is nothing worse for women than women who just pull that gender card as soon as they hear something they don't like or read things into a post that objectively aren't there.

    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    Sexism isn't a one way street. Sexism is -usually- against women but that doesn't mean always. Especially in light of the arguments being thrown around in support of JP.
    What you're doing is typically sexism. You'll understand if you drop the double standard.

    welcome to the new age of "marginalization"(in quotes because that is not always what the people are imo) defence. Any "marginalized" group are the only thing an ISM (racisim, sexism) can happen to.
    Basically they want to be the only victims, but also want to be jerks themselves with no repercussions of their actions.
    I wish I was making this up too.

    Good then, I'm from a marginalized group as well that loves acting like victims too (for some of them), so I'm allowed to speak !
    Sarcasm off. This is why this whole thing is just about political agendas, and has nothing to do with the gaming industry itself.

    Whoever is criticizing MO right now is basically saying "Booh you're evil you don't defend my agenda, I assumed you were!"

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

    Or download ftp?

    Ftp doesn't provide access to the forums. It's not surprising that those 1-post accounts posting only on this thread actually put some money to buy the game in order to do it. Pushing their agenda with whatever means possible.

  • @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

    Or download ftp?

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Account
    "Official forum posting unavailable"

    https://help.guildwars2.com/hc/en-us/articles/115015898508-Guild-Wars-2-Free-Account-Features-

    "Forum Posting Access: No"

  • fizzypetal.7936fizzypetal.7936 Member ✭✭✭

    Shortly before the Twitter debacle, Deroir had publicly stated in a video/stream, that he admired JP's work. With that in mind, and the fact that English is not his first language, I do not believe Deroir's intent was to make any sexist commentary what-so-ever. At worst, he may be guilty of clumsy conversation starting - with someone he admired.

    I once met Prof Brian Cox...I knew he had a child. I tried to start a conversation based around children because that was the only thing I felt reasonably competent to discuss with a man of such intellect. It was clumsy because I was star struck and nervous. I can empathise completely with Deroir based on my own experience meeting a 'hero' of sorts.

    JP did not have that context - which is so important to the bigger picture. Had JP seen that video clip, I do think that conversation may have gone a very different way.

    It is very sad to see that the media chooses to ignore the positives. Deroir is not the villain in the piece. Neither are Anet, or JP or PF. It is just one massive misunderstanding that spiralled out of control and had terrible consequences.

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

    Or download ftp?

    Ftp doesn't provide access to the forums. It's not surprising that those 1-post accounts posting only on this thread actually put some money to buy the game in order to do it. Pushing their agenda with whatever means possible.

    Most gamers think -1 posters are employees.. lol Plus on a more serious note, many that quit and say so publically are approached to give up their login info, some prolly do..? I have heard about it happening on Reddit.

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

    Or download ftp?

    Ftp doesn't provide access to the forums. It's not surprising that those 1-post accounts posting only on this thread actually put some money to buy the game in order to do it. Pushing their agenda with whatever means possible.

    Most gamers think -1 posters are employees.. lol

    sometimes they are, or hired by the devs.
    keyword is sometimes

  • Soa Cirri.6012Soa Cirri.6012 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Those "crisis" were parts of decisions by the Arenanet team, discussed by the developers at length, even involving higher ups maybe?

    You mean like how firing them was the decision of MO, a higher-up (the CEO if I'm not mistaken)?

    This thread got over 2.7k responses across 67 pages in a week. JP and PF were fired on page 1. There's also, now, numerous "journalists" spinning the story to completely destroy ANET's reputation, in the complete vacuum enforced by MO in his refusal to communicate. It would appear that MO's decision resulted in a crisis, in which we are currently engaged—and this is hardly his first. So when do the knives come out for him? Or does his being a "higher-up" justify anything he might do?

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

    Or download ftp?

    Ftp doesn't provide access to the forums. It's not surprising that those 1-post accounts posting only on this thread actually put some money to buy the game in order to do it. Pushing their agenda with whatever means possible.

    Most gamers think -1 posters are employees.. lol

    sometimes they are, or hired by the devs.
    keyword is sometimes

    Oh good night.. now I have heard everything.. oh what a tangled web we weave..

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Soa Cirri.6012 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Those "crisis" were parts of decisions by the Arenanet team, discussed by the developers at length, even involving higher ups maybe?

    You mean like how firing them was the decision of MO, a higher-up (the CEO if I'm not mistaken)?

    This thread got over 2.7k responses across 67 pages in a week. JP and PF were fired on page 1. There's also, now, numerous "journalists" spinning the story to completely destroy ANET's reputation, in the complete vacuum enforced by MO in his refusal to communicate. It would appear that MO's decision resulted in a crisis, in which we are currently engaged—and this is hardly his first. So when do the knives come out for him? Or does his being a "higher-up" justify anything he might do?

    Like the Spyware, I can still smell the torches burning over it, I took a big step back myself over it.

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Cloud Windfoot Omega.7485 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    You have to buy the game to get to the forums right?

    Or download ftp?

    Ftp doesn't provide access to the forums. It's not surprising that those 1-post accounts posting only on this thread actually put some money to buy the game in order to do it. Pushing their agenda with whatever means possible.

    Most gamers think -1 posters are employees.. lol

    sometimes they are, or hired by the devs.
    keyword is sometimes

    Oh good night.. now I have heard everything.. oh what a tangled web we weave..

    Well a pretty famous example is Driver 3, where the publishers hired a company to make the game look better on forums, they were caught and even traced back to the company.
    Its a rare occurrence that happens much of the time in corrupt workplaces.

    I highly doubt that is the case here.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Soa Cirri.6012 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    Those "crisis" were parts of decisions by the Arenanet team, discussed by the developers at length, even involving higher ups maybe?

    You mean like how firing them was the decision of MO, a higher-up (the CEO if I'm not mistaken)?

    I was talking about the previous "crisis" you described, the key difference between them and this one (if you can call this a crisis) is that the previous ones were a team decision that was changed (or not). We don't know how many people were fired behind the scenes for causing the other crisis.

    I don't think there is anyone above MO in the company :) Plus it wasn't his decision that caused this, it was someone's attack on the community and that was settled.

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭

    Ahh well, maybe a little prose, seems appropriate..

    “If we shadows have offended,
    Think but this, and all is mended,
    That you have but slumbered here
    While these visions did appear.
    And this weak and idle theme,
    No more yielding but a dream,
    Gentles, do not reprehend:
    If you pardon, we will mend:
    And, as I am an honest Puck,
    If we have unearned luck
    Now to 'scape the serpent's tongue,
    We will make amends ere long;
    Else the Puck a liar call;
    So, good night unto you all.
    Give me your hands, if we be friends,
    And Robin shall restore amends.”

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • Soa Cirri.6012Soa Cirri.6012 Member ✭✭✭

    @maddoctor.2738 said:
    I was talking about the previous "crisis" you described, the key difference between them and this one

    You describe it as "key." But whether a crisis originated from an individual or a committee is immaterial to its quality. If the raid team got together and conspired to attack people on twitter, would that be qualitatively less deserving of outrage?

    (if you can call this a crisis)

    Okay, now we're literally getting into semantics. We'll have to agree to disagree.

  • jbrother.1340jbrother.1340 Member ✭✭✭

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:
    So why is this thread allowed to continue? The very nature of it violates the "we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees" intent no?

    Three possible reasons:
    1) They think if they close this 3 more will pop up, which is highly likely as that's what happened when JP started this mess. Multiple threads appearing constantly.
    2) Those with the authority to close it are on vacation, which is quite possible we are mid summer after all, perfect time for a vacation
    3) They don't find the comments here disrespectful, after all some posters have been banned/reported for posts in this thread, so they might well look at this thread and take action when needed

    4) If ANet were to close the discussion, the gaming "media" would jump all over it. Consider the impact of the headline: "ArenaNet shuts down forum discussion of Dev dismissal." Compare that to the fact that there is a lot of support for ANet in this thread, and they aren't reporting that at all.

    If 71 pages is not enough, what is?

    this thread can be safely locked at this point. Nothing new is being presented and it is not really productive at this point. Yes this is my opinion but this is just going around in circles at this point.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @jbrother.1340 said:
    this thread can be safely locked at this point. Nothing new is being presented and it is not really productive at this point. Yes this is my opinion but this is just going around in circles at this point.

    same, lets turn the page and the issue die.
    ....lock it.

    main pvp: Khel the Undead(power reaper).

  • Harper.4173Harper.4173 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @Harper.4173 said:

    @Dreadshow.9320 said:

    @Harper.4173 said:

    @RoseofGilead.8907 said:

    @Harper.4173 said:
    And that's where people are wrong. Those titles might have meant something remotely positive maybe 20 or 30 years ago. Today as far as I see it they're a massive red flag. And by that I mean that statistically speaking - you have very good odds of finding someone who's completely unreasonable label themselves as such. Better odds than finding a decent human being.
    Maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm biased but as far as I've seen it - it seems to be the case. I guess all the normal people are more quiet and don't need to make everything into their personal crusade?

    Yes, that does sound biased.

    My bias keeps me nice and safe.
    Bias and stereotype are defensive mechanisms - people have them in order to avoid things that are unpleasant.
    I don't really understand why they're seen as bad - when most of the times they are going to keep you safe.

    I really don't understand the hate on stereotypes given the alternative is one monotype. And if Roger Watters and Pink Floyd thought us anything is that we don't want one monotype.

    It's not about hating people for being different - it's about recognizing that people who are different in certain ways are more likely to behave in some way or another. Using this you can predict their possible behavior easily at a glance and save yourself a lot of trouble and unpleasant interaction. It might not be something that's relevant in your part of the world but it certainly is where I'm from.
    I'd look forward to seeing "unprejudiced" people having a good time with some of the people around where I live.

    Also I don't know how some entertainers are of any relevance when it comes to figuring out what is good and what isn't. I do hope you don't live your life following the advice of such individuals, seeing how every month or so we find out the absolute wrecked state of the lives they live through some suicide, overdose or other unfortunate event.

    All I'm saying is if we did not have Stereotypes we would all be the same droning about doing the exact samething their would be only one type of humans... The movie 1984 comes to mind. That world would be horrible to live in if you ask me.

    I think you've missed my point entirely.

  • Soa Cirri.6012Soa Cirri.6012 Member ✭✭✭

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Mike O Brien.4613 said:
    Their attacks on the community were unacceptable
    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees

    I completely missed that post. LMKO

    I'll admit to being disrespectful to both JP and MO, although I have certainly seen far more severe disrespect aimed at JP by certain Sargonites bandying on about "kitten"s in the thread.

  • TheOrlyFactor.8341TheOrlyFactor.8341 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Good guy YongYea did another video based on the recent Twitterstorm she who shall not be named did.

    Asura fanatic.
    World's largest Zojja fan.
    You can't trust Charr. They belong to Bangar now.
    Make Dragon's Watch great again (by booting Rytlock out of it).
    The Kontract Krewe [RP]: Flailing around Tyria for gold and glory. Mostly gold though.

  • Gendou.9620Gendou.9620 Member ✭✭

    @Orimidu.9604 said:
    I haven't been following this thread, but I wanted to pop in and thank Samantha Wallschlaeger and all of the ANet team she listed and spoke highly about. I recently discovered a thread on the reddit page highlighting her series of tweets and I'm absolutely thrilled that one of my favorite games of all time has such a diverse, outspoken, transparent, and skillful staff behind the wheels. Shame on those "gaming journalism" websites that get it so wrong time after time. All it takes to see the truth is to play the game and follow the staff! You guys really practice what you preach and the world needs a lot more of that these days.

    The gaming websites didnt get it wrong, they wanted to say what they said, they deliberately sided with her and knew the truth-- this is how they avoided all the things that would have made her sound ridiculous "nono don't put that in, we need to make her sound like a victim, yeaaah there we go, she is a martyr for females!". Spurring up trouble means more to talk about which means more controversies and more money for their pockets. So yes you are correct to say "gaming journalism".

  • Gendou.9620Gendou.9620 Member ✭✭

    I remember the day when private accounts were locked when you click on them..... Weird....

  • Evon Skyfyre.9673Evon Skyfyre.9673 Member ✭✭✭

    @Soa Cirri.6012 said:

    @Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

    @Mike O Brien.4613 said:
    Their attacks on the community were unacceptable
    @Gaile Gray.6029 said:
    we do not intend to host comments that are disrespectful towards current or former employees

    I completely missed that post. LMKO

    I'll admit to being disrespectful to both JP and MO, although I have certainly seen far more severe disrespect aimed at JP by certain Sargonites bandying on about "kitten"s in the thread.

    We all have our moments. I learned something new. I now know what LMKO means :)

    MsTrandentia - Leader of Tyrian Mystical Tours [PORT]

  • @Mike O Brien.4613 said:
    Recently two of our employees failed to uphold our standards of communicating with players. Their attacks on the community were unacceptable. As a result, they’re no longer with the company.

    I want to be clear that the statements they made do not reflect the views of ArenaNet at all. As a company we always strive to have a collaborative relationship with the Guild Wars community. We value your input. We make this game for you.

    Mo

    Thank you Mike. ArenaNet have always been on my list of video game company's that I love for the way they interact with the community it's a delicate ecosystem and I when I have to quite a game because the company regards it's player base with giggling contempt.

  • Zaklex.6308Zaklex.6308 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @Edge.4180 said:

    @Zaklex.6308 said:
    I'm going to say this again, and I'll keep repeating it. It's high time we learn to separate the professional life from the personal life(and I DO NOT care if you list your employer on your personal social media, it's still your personal social media), across the board. Answer me this, why is it so hard for the majority of people to understand that employees are only representing their employer when on the clock and getting paid? I don't know about most people, but I do not bring my job home with me, once I clock out, that's it, it's out of mind, but then the majority of people can't turn their brains on and off like that either, so I guess I answered my own question.

    I don't understand how you can't see the obvious flaws in this thinking. If you, for example, work for a company and then (from your social media account where you choose to actively advertise your employment at said company) decide you're going to speak ill of that company and/or its customers.. I just don't understand how you expect there to be no repercussions to those actions.. particularly in the land of at-will employment.

    And I'm not talking about whistleblowing, I'm just referring to examples of smack-talk and generally just being an awful jerk. Yes, you can go onto your social media account and post "LOL at the idiotic people who are stupid enough to waste money eating at the restaurant I work at, home of the worst tasting, most overpriced food in history", but you are kidding yourself if you think your manager isn't going to want to have words with you on your next shift.

    Your expectation of some sort of magical separation and protections between the various worlds in your life is just bizarre.

    Let's take it a step further: if I could be completely free of consequences for what I say on personal public social media, I could take money from a competitor to badmouth my employer constantly and viciously, and my employer could only grin and bear it.

    I know this is an exaggeration, but it does prove that you have to draw a line somewhere. And what makes more sense than to draw the line where the actual hurting of an employer starts?

    Actually you couldn't, at least not in most states in the U.S....taking money from a competitor for any reason can falls under the business espionage act, or any number of laws that deal with slander and libel if the badmouthing isn't true...your argument is null and void. You draw the line at common sense and realize that the vast majority of people on their own time are not going to be talking about their employer/employment with complete strangers, let alone friends.

    Yes...no...maybe...what do you want, can't you see I'm busy saving the world...AGAIN!

  • morrolan.9608morrolan.9608 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 13, 2018

    @TexZero.7910 said:

    @Cerethon.8250 said:
    She deals with men telling her how to do her job every day. Look up microaggression.

    Newsflash, this happens to literally everyone.
    Don't believe it ? Just go look at any "balance thread" where people state the team is inept and doesn't know what they are doing. Gender has nothing to do with people telling others how to do their job.

    No it actually doesn't. I saw a story the other day about a supervisor who pretended to be a female staff member he supervises for 2 weeks in dealing with customers (with her full consent). He says the difference was like night and day in terms of how customers treated him when he was himself and when they thought he was the female employee. I wish I'd saved the link but it occurred just last year.

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    Notice how these pages are fueled by misinformed 1-post accounts that post their pieces about evil sexism and harassment painting the aggressor as the victim, and then responses towards them, and so on in a circle.

    Yes of course 1 side is right and the other is full of blow ins.................

    @Edge.4180 said:
    And every day gamers tell developers how to do their job, regardless of gender on either side. This sort of thing has been going on for as long as we've had forums where gamers could communicate with developers, and gender has absolutely nothing to do with that.

    Suggest you try and listen more to the feedback of female devs with more of an open mind. You are making assumptions purely on the anecdotal evidence of what you observe which is a fraction of what actually goes on.