Dervishes, Kormir and Abaddon

I googled around a bit and haven't found any discussion of this, so if I missed it, I apologise.

So dervishes are able to channel the powers and become avatars of five of the gods: Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna, Lyssa, and Grenth.

Is it possible there were dervishes that may have once upon a time been able to turn into an avatar of Abaddon? And was there enough time between Kormir's rise to power and Palawa Joko's take over to create an avatar form for Kormir?

Also, we see from Warden Amala that she's still able to turn into an avatar of Balthazar despite his death, so does it then mean that it's possible to still create an avatar form for Abaddon? I would assume that it's also possible for dervishes to not only create an avatar form for Kormir, but also a form for whoever may have replaced Balthazar, since one is alive and one is newly ascended. And if it were impossible for an avatar form to be created for a newly ascended god, avatars of Grenth wouldn't exist, methinks.

Let me know if there's something I missed or have gotten horribly wrong. And thanks.

Well, the Amala of the fractal is on the past, before balthazar events. according to some dev, (I can not remember where I read), the Awakened Amala is channeling Joko power, and just imitating the gods avatars.

@ugrakarma.9416 said:Well, the Amala of the fractal is on the past, before balthazar events. according to some dev, (I can not remember where I read), the Awakened Amala is channeling Joko power, and just imitating the gods avatars.

I know about the fractal being from hundreds of years ago, but thanks for the info on Awakened Amala. Explains the defiling balls in dwayna's form.

And if the power of the gods can be imitated in such a manner, then it may end up being possible to even create faux avatars of Abaddon and even Dhuum if a dervish were willing to break from tradition (or got in contact with that priest of Abaddon in Siren's Landing).

According to the Guild Wars Nightfall manual, "The Shattered Dynasty Era was a time when holy warriors roamed the countryside, learning the chants and prayers of the first Dervishes to drive back the darkness."

The Shattered Dynasty Era lasted between 583 and 640 AE; in other words, several centuries after the Exodus of the Gods and the imprisonment of Abaddon. Given how the Five did their utmost to erase all knowledge of Abaddon and his dark teachings (although some of that knowledge survived), it's unlikely that there would have been many if any dervishes channeling Abaddon per se in Tyria, especially when he had to exert his influence from the Realm of Torment via minions at first. However, a point to consider is that Warmarshal Varesh Ossa's elderly mentor, General Kahyet, was a dervish who led Varesh on the dark path of joining Abaddon's side, and we don't know what kind of information she possessed. She never took on an Abaddon dervish form while fighting her enemies, though.

As an interesting aside, the Sirens of Orr did have a dirge for Abaddon although that dirge was eventually drowned by the multitude of other gods' sirens singing the songs of the Five and lost in time. The same fate seems to have befallen any Abaddon dervish stuff over the years if any of the more intricate chants and prayers were written down or memorized in the past. :)

Theoretically nothing should necessarily prevent modern day dervishes from learning the chants and prayers that would allow them to become avatars of Kormir. Why Amala didn't despite defending one of the last strongholds of the Sunspears will likely remain a mystery unless her inability to do so is somehow related to the gods pulling back deeper into the Mists and their power in Tyria (resurrection etc.) lessening significantly.

@castlemanic.3198 said:Is it possible there were dervishes that may have once upon a time been able to turn into an avatar of Abaddon?

No, they didn't exist at the time Abaddon was a well-known god, and afterwards he was simply too hidden for nearly anyone but a couple culitsts to know. Even then, despite two dervishes (Kahyet and Varesh) being fervent worshipers, neither assumed an Avatar of Abaddon.

@castlemanic.3198 said:And was there enough time between Kormir's rise to power and Palawa Joko's take over to create an avatar form for Kormir?Probably. It was 60 years before he sprung into action, and another 50 or so years for him to finish his conquest.

However, it wasn't long after Kormir ascended into godhood that the gods further distanced themselves from the world and went silent. While we do not have an exact timeframe, within 50 years is likely. It's entirely possible that them doing so lessened people's abilities in channeling the gods' power, and voided any true avatar forms. (see below for Amala during fractal times)

@castlemanic.3198 said:Also, we see from Warden Amala that she's still able to turn into an avatar of Balthazar despite his death, so does it then mean that it's possible to still create an avatar form for Abaddon? I would assume that it's also possible for dervishes to not only create an avatar form for Kormir, but also a form for whoever may have replaced Balthazar, since one is alive and one is newly ascended. And if it were impossible for an avatar form to be created for a newly ascended god, avatars of Grenth wouldn't exist, methinks.

Amala is a bit of an oddity. According to devs, she's not actually channeling the gods' power, but Joko's power and warping it to assume the face of the gods' avatars. So she's not channeling Balthazar at that time, or any other god, so that avatar is really like putting on a regalia of Balthazar costume while being a fire ele (and respective other stuff for other gods).

To go back to above point, even during her living times, it's possible that Amala was pulling from a different source of power (e.g., guardian faith magic) to create "faux avatar forms" of the five gods. Would explain why there was no avatar of Kormir, as none existed and would likely take too much time and energy to try to develop a brand new avatar for a god who was still in her youth of what she represents.

Thanks everyone, that helps clear that up. I would love to see avatars or faux avatars of the other gods and maybe other aspects or domains too. It would be interesting to see that possibly translate to other races who could create sort of 'generic' avatars, like an avatar of war instead of an avatar of balthazar, since we know from Amala that it can be mimicked. It warrants exploration in my opinion, but I'm not sure if we're gonna have time to see it between now and the end of season 4.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:To go back to above point, even during her living times, it's possible that Amala was pulling from a different source of power (e.g., guardian faith magic) to create "faux avatar forms" of the five gods. Would explain why there was no avatar of Kormir, as none existed and would likely take too much time and energy to try to develop a brand new avatar for a god who was still in her youth of what she represents.

I reckon the gods probably buried something underneath of Elona to grant Dervish the power, something similar to bloodstone that can affect living beings around it

1. The power is 'native' to Elonian areas
2. There is no way the gods will distribute such power to so many Dervishes, so an 'object' pulsing out its effects could make more sense
3. Since the power had existed in Kormir, it would require the 'object' to be retrieved to pour in Kormir's power, which could expose the secret

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:To go back to above point, even during her living times, it's possible that Amala was pulling from a different source of power (e.g., guardian faith magic) to create "faux avatar forms" of the five gods. Would explain why there was no avatar of Kormir, as none existed and would likely take too much time and energy to try to develop a brand new avatar for a god who was still in her youth of what she represents.

1. The power is 'native' to Elonian areas
2. There is no way the gods will distribute such power to so many Dervishes, so an 'object' pulsing out its effects could make more sense
3. Since the power had existed in Kormir, it would require the 'object' to be retrieved to pour in Kormir's power, which could expose the secret

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Grenth_%28snow_fighting_skill%29https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Avatar_of_Dwayna_%28snow_fighting_skill%29

Not exactly native to Elona, no.

You also assume that the gods were actively choosing who can and who couldn't call upon their power. This is unlikely given the lore behind human racial skills (calling upon the gods' magic) and the ending speech by Lyssa's Muse in Nightfall ("the power of the gods is in you" etc.). This all indicates that humans in general are capable of calling upon the gods' power without the gods directly granting that power.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@crepuscular.9047 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:To go back to above point, even during her living times, it's possible that Amala was pulling from a different source of power (e.g., guardian faith magic) to create "faux avatar forms" of the five gods. Would explain why there was no avatar of Kormir, as none existed and would likely take too much time and energy to try to develop a brand new avatar for a god who was still in her youth of what she represents.

1. The power is 'native' to Elonian areas
2. There is no way the gods will distribute such power to so many Dervishes, so an 'object' pulsing out its effects could make more sense
3. Since the power had existed in Kormir, it would require the 'object' to be retrieved to pour in Kormir's power, which could expose the secret

Not sure where you coming from in regards to skill?

1. The skill is an event based skill
2. the skill description clearly stats "This skill is given to Dervishes competing on Grenth/Dwayna's side in a Dwayna Vs Grenth match."; The bio of Dervish was described as "The tradition of the Dervish is unique to Elona and traces back to the Shattered Dynasty era when wandering ascetics sought to bring comfort to a land engulfed in civil war."

   your second point is exactly what i said, "There is no way the gods will distribute such power to so many Dervishes", that's why I was suggesting the power that allowed Dervishes to transform was from an "object" with God's power injected into it, similar to a bloodstone, will effect living creature near it. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Curse_of_the_Bloodstoneand Lyssa's Muse never said anything about every human is capable of calling upon gods and god are willingly to give power to everyone, they already learnt it the hard way through King Doric and the flight with Abbadon to lock him upWhat Lyssa's Muse is implying our actions, emotions, attributes, etc are reflections of the gods themselves

Calling upon god's power is totally different to be able to become an avatar, as we seen in GW2 personal story, it was done with an artifact through a ritualthe racial skill based avatar, i dont know about them, but Dervish's version seems to be in a totally different league; don't forget, we are the player character, so we are a bit more special than the NPCs running around in Divinity's Reach

Kormir: "Gods, we beseech you. Hear our prayers."Player Character: "We have come where living men should not be. We have fought armies, crossed wastelands and conquered demons."Player Character: "Now we are in the heart of Torment. We must destroy Abaddon before he destroys the world. But we cannot battle him alone."Lyssa's Muse: "You are not alone. The gods are always watching."Kormir: "Watching? We need your help. We are only mortals, and we challenge a god."Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength."Lyssa's Muse: "Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice."Lyssa's Muse: "And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there."Lyssa's Muse: "The divinity is within you. And so, we give you our blessing. That should suffice for the task ahead."Lyssa's Muse: "And to you, Kormir, a most special gift."Lyssa's Muse: "This is your world, now. This is your decision. You must make the choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Our decision? They leave us some words of encouragement and expect us to fight a god?"Player Character: "The gods said we have a choice. A choice that only a mortal could make."Kormir: "Yes. Yes, there is a choice. We can end this. We don't have to be driven by gods and their avatars. Let us go."

@"crepuscular.9047" said:Not sure where you coming from in regards to skill?

1. The skill is an event based skill
2. the skill description clearly stats "This skill is given to Dervishes competing on Grenth/Dwayna's side in a Dwayna Vs Grenth match."; The bio of Dervish was described as "The tradition of the Dervish is unique to Elona and traces back to the Shattered Dynasty era when wandering ascetics sought to bring comfort to a land engulfed in civil war."

1. Not exclusively. We see Snowmen and Grenches, some of which can use those skills, in Eye of the North. In fact, we see them in EotN before we saw them as part of Wintersday.
2. Erm, that's the "player acquisition". Look at the NPCs that use it:

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Blessed_Snowmanhttps://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Shifty_Grentch

And note where they are located.

Not Elona.

@"crepuscular.9047" said:your second point is exactly what i said, "There is no way the gods will distribute such power to so many Dervishes", that's why I was suggesting the power that allowed Dervishes to transform was from an "object" with God's power injected into it, similar to a bloodstone, will effect living creature near it. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Curse_of_the_Bloodstoneand Lyssa's Muse never said anything about every human is capable of calling upon gods and god are willingly to give power to everyone, they already learnt it the hard way through King Doric and the flight with Abbadon to lock him upWhat Lyssa's Muse is implying our actions, emotions, attributes, etc are reflections of the gods themselves

Erm, that's not what I said at all. Okay, basically, I was saying that spells attributed to the gods granting favor in GW1 were never granted by an external force.

This is most prevailant with Monks, who's "prayers" were supposedly answered by Balthazar and Dwayna every single time. It's actually just magic that is empowered by one's faith in... something. Anything.

Dervish magic likely functioned the same, though utilizing the same forms of magic as elementalists given that their magic was more elemental based (wind "prayers" and earth "prayers").

Which is what Lyssa's Muse was saying. Things that are believed to be deeds of the gods aren't and never were, but they were things humans are capable of doing on their own. Hence the whole "this is your world now" stuff she then says after.

@"crepuscular.9047" said:Calling upon god's power is totally different to be able to become an avatar, as we seen in GW2 personal story, it was done with an artifact through a ritualthe racial skill based avatar, i dont know about them, but Dervish's version seems to be in a totally different league; don't forget, we are the player character, so we are a bit more special than the NPCs running around in Divinity's Reach

The "avatar of Balthazar" seen in the PS is 100% different than the Avatar of Balthazar dervish form.

The main reason I'd be dubious is the one Kossage already raised: the first dervishes didn't crop up until, at earliest, nearly six hundred years after the gods had already left. If it was from something they had buried, why would it take so long for the effects to kick in?

Then there's the question of non-Elonian examples. Nightfall had a number of demon dervishes who had never even set tentacle on Tyria before. There weren't a ton of them, but EotN had mandragor, mantid, skale, bison, elemental, simian, saurian, and golem dervishes. War In Kryta had White Mantle and Peacekeeper dervishes, and Winds of Change had Ministry of Purity and Jade Brotherhood dervishes. It seems unlikely that they had all visited Elona at some point or other to attune to this relic.

Been wondering this myself for years now as back in GW1 and 2, no Dervish forms of Abaddon nor Kormir.Would be epic to see both of their forms and powers. It was disappointing seeing only 1 Priest of Abaddon in the whole game, and he was dressed as a Priest of Dwayna aswell!!! ??

Anyway, I hope to see Dervish Elite Spec in our 3rd expansion :)

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:Not sure where you coming from in regards to skill?

1. The skill is an event based skill
2. the skill description clearly stats "This skill is given to Dervishes competing on Grenth/Dwayna's side in a Dwayna Vs Grenth match."; The bio of Dervish was described as "The tradition of the
   Dervish is unique to Elona
   and traces back to the Shattered Dynasty era when wandering ascetics sought to bring comfort to a land engulfed in civil war."

1. Not exclusively. We see Snowmen and Grenches, some of which can use those skills, in Eye of the North. In fact, we see them in EotN before we saw them as part of Wintersday.
2. Erm, that's the "player acquisition". Look at the NPCs that use it:

@"crepuscular.9047" said:your second point is exactly what i said, "There is no way the gods will distribute such power to so many Dervishes", that's why I was suggesting the power that allowed Dervishes to transform was from an "object" with God's power injected into it, similar to a bloodstone, will effect living creature near it.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Curse_of_the_Bloodstone

and Lyssa's Muse never said anything about every human is capable of calling upon gods and god are willingly to give power to everyone, they already learnt it the hard way through King Doric and the flight with Abbadon to lock him upWhat Lyssa's Muse is implying our actions, emotions, attributes, etc are reflections of the gods themselves

@"crepuscular.9047" said:Calling upon god's power is totally different to be able to become an avatar, as we seen in GW2 personal story, it was done with an artifact through a ritualthe racial skill based avatar, i dont know about them, but Dervish's version seems to be in a totally different league; don't forget, we are the player character, so we are a bit more special than the NPCs running around in Divinity's Reach

I dont know why you being so critical, everything is up to personal interpretation, everyone has their own views; which is something I noticed with a lot of your posts

1. like I said, Event based things arent really lore, if Anet wanted they can put 500 Ruriks running around in Hall of Monument so you will never forget him after all these years
2. summary in a single point, and do not going off topic, gods do not directly grant Dervish the ability to transform into avatars
3. every avatar from each culture have their interpretation of the gods, which is display all around the worlds of GW1 and GW2 on the walls and sculptures; Just as Lyssa's Muse, which is an Avatar of Lyssa

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:The main reason I'd be dubious is the one Kossage already raised: the first dervishes didn't crop up until, at earliest, nearly six hundred years after the gods had already left. If it was from something they had buried, why would it take so long for the effects to kick in?

Then there's the question of non-Elonian examples. Nightfall had a number of demon dervishes who had never even set tentacle on Tyria before. There weren't a ton of them, but EotN had mandragor, mantid, skale, bison, elemental, simian, saurian, and golem dervishes. War In Kryta had White Mantle and Peacekeeper dervishes, and Winds of Change had Ministry of Purity and Jade Brotherhood dervishes. It seems unlikely that they had all visited Elona at some point or other to attune to this relic.

maybe they need to learn how to use it?non-human aside, i would not approach it from lore; you might well ask, why Mhenlo never used Ritualist skills despite studied at Shing Jea Monastery under Master Togo

@crepuscular.9047 said:

1. like I said, Event based things arent really lore, if Anet wanted they can put 500 Ruriks running around in Hall of Monument so you will never forget him after all these yearsExcept that, they fully are. The one and only exception to this rule (as far as we can tell) is GW1's two April's Fools quests.

And it's not only events, anyways.

@crepuscular.9047 said:

3. every avatar from each culture have their interpretation of the gods, which is display all around the worlds of GW1 and GW2 on the walls and sculptures; Just as Lyssa's Muse, which is an Avatar of LyssaLyssa's Muse is indeed Lyssa's avatar, but it is not the same kind of thing as the dervish elite form. One is a specific individual, the other is a spell used by hundreds.

The Avatar of Balthazar in the PS is similarly not the same thing as the dervish form. One is a one-time-use artifact imbued with divine power which makes a person a weaker copy of a specific individual, the other is a spell used by hundreds.

@crepuscular.9047 said:maybe they need to learn how to use it?non-human aside, i would not approach it from lore; you might well ask, why Mhenlo never used Ritualist skills despite studied at Shing Jea Monastery under Master Togo

If you don't approach a lore topic from lore, how else do you approach it?

It is worth noting that ArenaNet was fairly careful not to give out avatar forms willy-nilly. There were a lot of dervish enemies in Nightfall, EOTN, and Beyond, but avatar forms only cropped up when the user was connected to the gods in some way - being human or a servant of the gods. M.O.X. had avatar forms mechanically, but didn't have the same graphics, and it was described as MOX essentially having a 'supercharged mode'.

However, we do see avatar forms used by humans who are, shall we say, not performing the will of the gods, such as Peacekeepers serving the White Mantle. Or, as I did, invoking the Hounds of Balthazar to fight the Hounds of Balthazar.

The most logical conclusion is that it is as Lyssa's Muse said: the power is in (humans and others tied to the gods). The gods do not have to do anything to allow their followers to use avatar forms, nor do they appear to be able to stop them from doing so once the technique is known.