Increasing toxicity in EU WvW.

Hello friends,

Once upon a time; I played on servers where roamers, casuals, hardcore players, PPT guilds and fight guilds and many more cooperated as part of a community, playing together on a daily basis. And yes there was occasional drama, and there were differences, yet still people played together with a common goal. They worked together, despite differences and different approaches, to reach this common goal.

Unfortunately, things have changed. On most servers the communities drastically declined or died completely. Yet there is no lack of players, there is simply a lack of players playing with / for / within the community. Players are no longer willing to cooperate; and no longer feel like they have a common goal. Instead they're mostly following selfinterest. Perhaps gift of battle; perhaps getting kills or fights or PPT or fun. This has lead to some unintended consequences. The communities that would previously organise events, guide players, support the server they are part of no longer exist or continue to lose players.

The issue is this cannot be solved on existing main servers. Each main server has a clear server culture and so many pugs / players in their current habits that it's virtually impossible to change the locale. If you want to create a new community; you have to do it on link servers and bandwagon them to main status. See vabbi, UW, WSR and possibly AG next. If players want to play as part of a tight, nice group to join on a daily basis and improve as such; then their options are joining a guild or forming a fresh server.

A second issue, is that unless you have strict rules your community gets overrun by non-community players. You may start a nice, strong community and put a lot of effort in; but anyone with 500-1.8k gems can simply transfer there. And once they're there, they can do whatever they like regardless of your goals, intentions or opinions. And the better your community does? The more players will come over. I'm not saying there shouldn't be other players on the server - there should be!

I am saying most of these communities have a goal; of playing together. And a lot of players simply transfer to a "more active" server so they can just log in and play. Perfect! Except they're still not willing to interact with the community they insist on joining. They have no interest in doing what their group desires or needs; yet insist on following that group anyways. Your community is no longer responsible to lead for itself; it's responsible to lead for everyone yet most players refuse to interact with the leads. Frustration and less leads follow...

It pains me to inform you that as long as the general culture in WvW is "join follow any group you like and do whatever you wish without respect for your allies wishes", the best way to maintain your WvW community is blatant toxicity. While it doesn't prevent any of the above; it does help hold players accountable. Furthermore, most of these "fairweather" players don't enjoy the toxicity and tend to leave. And truthfully, them leaving is less damaging for your group than them stalking you continuously.

Do you want to play WvW as a team again? Do you want to work together to make your server the very best? Do you want to make your enemies tremble before you? Become toxic now!

This is part satire; part serious. You can either be respectful of the players / groups you join and respect their wishes; or you can run with another group. If there are NO OTHER GROUPS then you still shouldn't insist on stalking them but realise there's probably a reason for their "too high" requirements. You can always roam or make your own group. Respect goes both ways; and this toxicity is only the result of many individuals not respecting the groups they joined.

PS. Being toxic increases the amount of lootbags you get by 300%!

Can only talk for myself - I shy away from running with teams as I'm running a non-meta build. Unless said team advertises as casual/anything goes, then yeah, I'll leave them be.

Its kinda the flip side to folks demanding certain specs and class comps - when pop is low, can folks really afford to be fussy?

I dont go in large groups, for 3 reasons.

-They specifically ask for a build or profession, but they carry it out.

-I dont like the way to go 30 or 40 chasing for example an individual person as if it were the most important thing in the world.

-Not everyone can go in zerg mode due to the delay.

@Scud.5067 said:Can only talk for myself - I shy away from running with teams as I'm running a non-meta build. Unless said team advertises as casual/anything goes, then yeah, I'll leave them be.

Its kinda the flip side to folks demanding certain specs and class comps - when pop is low, can folks really afford to be fussy?

I don't think population is low. Virtually every EU server can queue maps during prime time. Popular commanders can, despite being toxic and having strict meta requirements, still get hundreds of players willing to follow them especially as long as they're winning fights. As more and more commanders ragequit their servers, imo for understandable reasons, this number only increases.

Population isn't low, folks can definitely afford to be fussy. My point is non-meta folks can't be fussy. If there aren't any leads that want to lead non-meta that's no reason to go troll groups that would rather do meta.

I do think yours is the correct attitude; but it's not the general attitude I see either in game; here or on reddit. The general attitude seems to be you can join whatever group you want and do whatever you want.

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Can only talk for myself - I shy away from running with teams as I'm running a non-meta build. Unless said team advertises as casual/anything goes, then yeah, I'll leave them be.

Its kinda the flip side to folks demanding certain specs and class comps - when pop is low, can folks really afford to be fussy?

I hear you - then lets hope enough folks want to play meta and team up. Though I reckon that's the vast majority.

Perhaps if some commanders tried to scoop up all the randoms and bung them into a group. Sure, it might be akin to herding cats, but throw enough cats and..

_...hmm. Ok, this metaphor is getting weird oo

It's an open competitive game mode, the same problem exists in PvP. Everyone's approach to the game modes can be different, but fact is they're all playing the game they bought.

Until ANet allows for comp'd team against comp'd team this behavior will exist.

Maybe the new alliance system will help, but.....

@Tinnel.4369 PvP is not an open gamemode. It's matchmaking controlled. You play with a playerbase of around your rating, which is a very limited selection.

As a result, PvP is self-regulating. A player who plays meta and mediocre and a player who plays off-meta but good can be the same rating and both have similar impact on their team / the game. A player who plays non-meta and doesn't even try is very likely to end up in rather low ratings among trolls, afk'ers and reward-farmers. The group you get is tied to your rating.

In raids and fractals your groups are controlled and players who (refuse to) try / perform are kicked.In openworld PvE they're super welcome because it's designed to promote this style of play.

That only leaves WvW as a gamemode where what you do matters; yet your team has to put up with you no matter what. If anet won't promote incentives for us to work as a team; and players only promote their personal self-interest then I will promote mine. And mine is for communities and organised groups playing their own styles to exist. As these are mostly threathened by casuals overrunning them; I'm promoting toxicity towards them. Hopefully this will, eventually, make these players aware of their seemingly innocent actions so both sides can eventually play together for a common goal; rather than fighting both your own side and both enemy servers.

The easiest way to IMPROVE TEAMPLAY is by being MORE TOXIC to those that refuse to cooperate. Say YES to teamwork and become toxic now!

Maybe you got the wrong server? I'm on Dzagonur (came from aba) and it's not as bad as you describe.We are linked with abaddon for so long time and playing together. I really like nearly all of my server members, apart from a few trolls, but they might be everywhere I guess.

We have a lot of casual gamers, also fight guilds, deff/ "ppt" guilds, roamers, etc.Most of the time it is really nice. We have often 1 or more borders without a zerg even on reset. It's hard to get players in teamspeak and most off the time we have just on map with a decent sized groups. Some days, when you are the only commander you trying to get a tower or garrison or having a nice fight and need to stop to go deffing other stuff or borders because there is no second group. This is a little bit frustrating, especially as commander.I hope that it's get better with the alliance system. At the moment both servers are only medium populated so it is really hard to find people, equal numbered fights, etc.But we are still having fun in TS

Regarding Meta classes, most publics take them, if they are in TS. But Core Rangers and Thiefs are the first, that get non stabi groups if there aren't enough Firebrands :-P1 or 2 soulbeasts that pewpew unsticky Weaver or other squishy targets could be very usefull or a thief that hits a keep so it is infight or also single target unsticky damage dealers are very useful in a zerg if the know what to do and are in TS and listen.

Regarding the chasing single targets, most commanders say that they shouldn't be hunted, unless they attack us, then we turn arround and train them

@Israel.7056 A man of culture, well experienced in the art of training pugs who'd rather not be trained.

By all means; I want friendly communities working together rather than players fighting among eachother. But we're past the point of asking nicely. I'm afraid it doesn't work anymore. As you state players respond to incentives. I mostly stick to consistent regulating of squads and not ressing similar to what you describe. When that leads to friction with some of the more entitled players; then making fun and being mean occasionally follows.

@"metalTiffy.7106" I'll start by stating I think german servers, part due to culture (server culture, german culture or both?) are a LOT better than most. They are very organised and community driven. At least that's my opinion from kodash and riverside; which had plenty of players willing to swap and organise. Playing on international (and many national) servers is very different. There are servers on which you can reliably get a queue, a 50 man zerg yet you'll get under 30 in squad, and virtually none of them playing any classes you need. 50 man zergs with 1 firebrand don't work; but they do exist.

I tend to make exceptions for players the community knows. If you're willing to run what the group needs most of the time, especially when they need you, nobody will mind if you ask to join on something else from time to time; even experimental stuff.

And honestly, I was on kodash recently and despite not "policing" their squad they had a very very good comp. (Say 45/50 meta) Unfortunately, a few hours before swapping to kodash I was on another international server and ... Well lets say I'd kick almost half the squad if I was in charge. 10% non-meta isn't an issue. 50% non-meta means you can never make a ballsy push, do a portal bomb, take a defended keep, ...

@"Dami.5046" Toxicity requires 2 sides.

"You're toxic because you won't let me play whatever I want!""No you're toxic because you playing whatever you want doesn't allow us to play how we like!""no u!" x100.

If players can't respect the wishes of the groups they run with, then don't run with them. If those players insist to run with them without taking them into account; then they give the group no other options but to be toxic. And frankly; in my opinion following groups while doing things you know the group doesn't want you to do but doing them anyways because you feel like it is the definition of griefing.

All hail toxicity!

I don't think you ever read anything I have written. I have chosen to roam since it suits me better. Not because I am sticking two fingers up at the comms who think it's their way or no way.But as I have said, i have never had a comm ever say to me 'you can run with me if you play bah' because no one has. They seem to care more about TS.However since you know nothing about me, I dare say I am aware of what professions aren't meta and what is meta. But unless you are in a static group here lies the problem :I like playing a mesmer. Comm1 says can i do minstrel build? Yes I say happily.next day comm2 doesn't want that. They want cele necro.
So off i go thinking, oh kitten I haven't got a cele set so no pips today.You really expecting people to have numerous sets just so they can act on your beck and call?If you want this maybe some comms need to be a bit more up front about stuff, instead of saying if you don't run meta we'll just get you killed.Because if I go to a group in a meta class how do you honestly know what my build would be anyway.

I don't get this at all. This is one of those name names situations when people mask it as a general-feels thread? Did it really need a forum post that ranted despite @Israel.7056 easily surmising? If there are issues with people then deal with those specific people. That's far more efficient than hoping they'll read this. If they don't deal. Move on, and stick to your guild/group. Shouldn't need them anyway. (It'd be nice if rally was removed however).

o.o

I partly blame certain types of guilds and players for this, and the acceptance of trolling. There was a server I played on that started taking in guilds of a certain attitude, and I say they started taking in as in they paid for their transfers. Guilds that didn't care for the goals of the server, but the community there wanted to be more "competitive" to stay up in the ranks, so they bought those guilds and whatever baggage that came with them. Those guilds had players that would spew toxicity for their own purposes, like trying to get players off a map, or just being an ahole in general and ridiculing players of the community, building troll siege, which was accepted by both sides as I doubt any guild leaders or server leaders said anything to make them chill out, it just became accepted as the norm. Then one day our guild leader got told to go kill themselves for making a scout call... because apparently the guild was fighting and didn't intend to defend and didn't need to hear these calls.... on homebl... That was the last straw for us so we left the next day and went to a server which had a great community (Ehmry Bay) for about 8 months before HoT killed everything in wvw.

Then you also have those special individuals who will be toxic for every bad thing that happens, your zerg wipes? here comes the calls you suck for 10 mins, you lost smc? here comes the toxic complaints you didn't defend hard enough why didn't you use siege bleh bleh bleh, and then you have the people who cheer this "mascot" on because it's "amusing" and becomes accepted as the norm.

As you play and become a veteran of the game mode just seems like people drift more into their guilds serving as their community over the server community(frankly some of these have become non existent with links), so they fall back is their guilds especially ones that have had to move often with the guild. But let's face it, this game mode is littered with bad players, never mind being forced to meta classes to play for groups, just in general there are players who won't learn from their mistakes. The community working together is a two way street, the guilds need to be more respectful and work with their community, while the community players also need to try and do their part and be helpful, do proper scout calls, run a decent build for your class (I don't care what class you want to play), learn and play better in general. Funny how we ended up on Mag though, the server filled with toxicity, but at that point we didn't care and just chilled and did our own thing, and thus becoming another one those those just playing for the guild.

I agree with Etheri. In WvW, builds count. If you run some trash build in a zerg and do nothing beneficial, then do as my Nigerian friend said and gerara here, man.

@Scud.5067 said:

@Etheri.5406 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Can only talk for myself - I shy away from running with teams as I'm running a non-meta build. Unless said team advertises as casual/anything goes, then yeah, I'll leave them be.

Its kinda the flip side to folks demanding certain specs and class comps - when pop is low, can folks really afford to be fussy?

I forget the exact reference and stats but the energy from 1 cat could power Manhattan for a week.

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:I don't get this at all. This is one of those name names situations when people mask it as a general-feels thread? Did it really need a forum post that ranted despite @Israel.7056 easily surmising? If there are issues with people then deal with those specific people. That's far more efficient than hoping they'll read this. If they don't deal. Move on, and stick to your guild/group. Shouldn't need them anyway. (It'd be nice if rally was removed however).

o.o

There is no issue with a small group of specific players. There is an issue with a considerable chunk of the population expecting nice groups to join / follow at their whim without the slighest consideration for the groups requests.

@Dami.5046 It applies to classes, builds, roles, TS / voice, playstyle, ... You can play with your group as they desire or you can find a group that plays how you desire; and hopefully you can find a group that suits you. If you're roaming you truly are your own boss, but if you're in a group you do play with other players. That's my point of view.

@Dami.5046 said:I don't think you ever read anything I have written. I have chosen to roam since it suits me better. Not because I am sticking two fingers up at the comms who think it's their way or no way.But as I have said, i have never had a comm ever say to me 'you can run with me if you play bah' because no one has. They seem to care more about TS.However since you know nothing about me, I dare say I am aware of what professions aren't meta and what is meta. But unless you are in a static group here lies the problem :I like playing a mesmer. Comm1 says can i do minstrel build? Yes I say happily.next day comm2 doesn't want that. They want cele necro.

So off i go thinking, oh kitten I haven't got a cele set so no pips today.You really expecting people to have numerous sets just so they can act on your beck and call?If you want this maybe some comms need to be a bit more up front about stuff, instead of saying if you don't run meta we'll just get you killed.Because if I go to a group in a meta class how do you honestly know what my build would be anyway.

Well in my case id just kick you if you were on the mes. If you happen to know a com that likes minstrel mes then run with that guy. I do expect people to have numerous sets at this point but if you don't then you get kicked until you do. You say you prefer roaming anyways so it shouldn't really effect you at all. Btw you're right that I can't check builds unfortunately so I guess you could fly under the radar on a meta class with a non meta build if you really wanted to.

I never said my builds weren't meta, be it roaming or other wise but stop making WvW into a dictatorship. The meta changes for heavens sake, are you going to gear check everyone while doing a check list of insert site ?If i'm roaming see a group what is the problem with helping build a cata or killing a few enemies ? If i see a zerg I help. I help heal, i help run supply i help kill enemies i even help claiming.So why so selfish?trolling me won't change that.

@Etheri.5406 said:

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:I don't get this at all. This is one of those name names situations when people mask it as a general-feels thread? Did it really need a forum post that ranted despite @Israel.7056 easily surmising?

If there are issues with people then deal with those specific people.

That's far more efficient than hoping they'll read this. If they don't deal. Move on, and stick to your guild/group. Shouldn't need them anyway. (It'd be nice if rally was removed however).

o.o

The amount is irrelevant. Use the in game chat is what I'm saying as those pugs more than likely won't venture here to read whatever you had hoped to accomplish. Real time communication is better. Forums would require effort on their part. If they don't comply with reasonable requests, ignore them, and do as @Israel.7056 condensed your OP to if you feel that's appropriate.

@_@

@Israel.7056 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I don't think you ever read anything I have written. I have chosen to roam since it suits me better. Not because I am sticking two fingers up at the comms who think it's their way or no way.But as I have said, i have never had a comm ever say to me 'you can run with me if you play bah' because no one has. They seem to care more about TS.However since you know nothing about me, I dare say I am aware of what professions aren't meta and what is meta. But unless you are in a static group here lies the problem :I like playing a mesmer. Comm1 says can i do minstrel build? Yes I say happily.next day comm2 doesn't want that. They want cele necro.

So off i go thinking, oh kitten I haven't got a cele set so no pips today.You really expecting people to have numerous sets just so they can act on your beck and call?If you want this maybe some comms need to be a bit more up front about stuff, instead of saying if you don't run meta we'll just get you killed.Because if I go to a group in a meta class how do you honestly know what my build would be anyway.

It was an example, but I dare say on all this maybe you should give us all your take on the meta, you know what you look for, what not to bring.All this kicking, i'm finding it quite funny, on what server do you comm?

@Dami.5046 said:I never said my builds weren't meta, be it roaming or other wise but stop making WvW into a dictatorship. The meta changes for heavens sake, are you going to gear check everyone while doing a check list of insert site ?If i'm roaming see a group what is the problem with helping build a cata or killing a few enemies ? If i see a zerg I help. I help heal, i help run supply i help kill enemies i even help claiming.So why so selfish?trolling me won't change that.

If I could check gear and builds I would but I can't so it's a non issue

As I said you're free to do whatever pleases you but I won't let you in my squad unless you're playing what id like you to play simple as that and if you're hovering around my squad on a non meta build I won't res you if you go down.

If you want to roam around and just do whatever you feel like you're always going to be free to do so but I'm not going to enable this sort of behavior.

@Dami.5046 said:I never said my builds weren't meta, be it roaming or other wise but stop making WvW into a dictatorship. The meta changes for heavens sake, are you going to gear check everyone while doing a check list of insert site ?If i'm roaming see a group what is the problem with helping build a cata or killing a few enemies ? If i see a zerg I help. I help heal, i help run supply i help kill enemies i even help claiming.So why so selfish?trolling me won't change that.

I quite agree. I'm not sure why people care. Like more numbers on your team can't be a bad thing, ever! If I am fighting a player on a point and another joins in - good! The more, the easier.

@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I never said my builds weren't meta, be it roaming or other wise but stop making WvW into a dictatorship. The meta changes for heavens sake, are you going to gear check everyone while doing a check list of

insert site

?If i'm roaming see a group what is the problem with helping build a cata or killing a few enemies ? If i see a zerg I help. I help heal, i help run supply i help kill enemies i even help claiming.So why so selfish?trolling me won't change that.

It is a bad thing if you die on inc to merely rally the enemy.

D:

@alaskasnowgirl.6047 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I never said my builds weren't meta, be it roaming or other wise but stop making WvW into a dictatorship. The meta changes for heavens sake, are you going to gear check everyone while doing a check list of

insert site

?If i'm roaming see a group what is the problem with helping build a cata or killing a few enemies ? If i see a zerg I help. I help heal, i help run supply i help kill enemies i even help claiming.So why so selfish?trolling me won't change that.

If you get 20 more lb rangers better fight without them. They are just dead weight.

@Dami.5046 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Dami.5046 said:I don't think you ever read anything I have written. I have chosen to roam since it suits me better. Not because I am sticking two fingers up at the comms who think it's their way or no way.But as I have said, i have never had a comm ever say to me 'you can run with me if you play bah' because no one has. They seem to care more about TS.However since you know nothing about me, I dare say I am aware of what professions aren't meta and what is meta. But unless you are in a static group here lies the problem :I like playing a mesmer. Comm1 says can i do minstrel build? Yes I say happily.next day comm2 doesn't want that. They want cele necro.

So off i go thinking, oh kitten I haven't got a cele set so no pips today.You really expecting people to have numerous sets just so they can act on your beck and call?If you want this maybe some comms need to be a bit more up front about stuff, instead of saying if you don't run meta we'll just get you killed.Because if I go to a group in a meta class how do you honestly know what my build would be anyway.

I like four things right now: firebrand, scourge, rev, spellbreaker. That's it. I happen to know some really good mesmers and eles who I'd always make exceptions for but otherwise just those four.

I command and pug on Mag.