Changes:

Putrid defense - you take 10% less damage from poisoned foes. Poison applied to you is 50% effective when shrouded (damage & healing reduction).

Soul Comprehension - change the name to corrupter's protection - when you're under effect of protection, reduce condition damage taken by 10%.

Reaper's protection - gain protection when you stunbreak (3s). When you're feared, fear the enemy back (60s icd)

Unholy Sanctuary - when you trigger shroud (both activation and exit) enter "unholy sanctuary" state for 5 seconds. When entering this state consume all boons received from outside sources to heal yourself (small heal pre each boon type, stacks don't matter), and no new boons can be applied from outside sources for the duration of the state.Your own boons however will function and when casted on yourself will be immune to corrupting, removal or transfer for the duration of this state.

Also regenerate increasing amounts of health when shrouded (200 hp base, 0.2 coefficient). Increase these values per 20% of base each second until reaching 100% bonus values cap at 6th second.

Why:

Death Magic has a clearly defined role - passive defenses that synergize well with minion and shroud builds. Problem is the potency of these is just too low, especially when faced with other specializations that not only offer damage mitigation tools, but also potent healing (blood magic, spite, reaper to name a few). So to break down each change:

• Putrid Defense - being all about passive defenses Death Magic should address one of greatest banes that necro shroud builds face - being poisoned. It's hard enough to heal up when shrouded (unless you're scourge), if you're poisoned things get hairy. Since DM is about passive approach to defense i feel this way of doing things is proper.

• Reaper's Protection - not a lot of protection in the current interation. Also a lot of stunbreak skills are warming the bench because spectral armor is just too good. Adding some protection to them this way will add to their viability and give necros more build diversity.

• Unholy Sanctuary - current iteration is garbage. It's basically pressing F1 for the player with a poor regen when shrouded. Only saving grace is that it can ignore shroud cooldown and pop it regardless.

My proposition meets the needs of necro along with thematic of death magic's passive defense. Instead of more boons for necro a way to defend the few he has from boonhate. Necro is the absolute master of boon removal, so it makes sense for him to be able to defend against his own (or similar) tricks.

To keep it in line, this anti-boon defense applies only to boons the necro casts on himself. If you cast a traited well, when under "unholy sanctuary" state, protection you got from it won't be removable by enemies until the state is over. But protection your allies got can be ripped at any time.

Another balancing (and fun) aspect is how the boon protection competes with the healing. If you want a prolonged, no holes boon protect, you must leave shroud early - like 5s after you enter it. But that won't give you enough time to ramp up the heal to serious values. If you need decent healing you will want to camp shroud. But if you do so, initial boon protect will ware off and every second after that is a risk of getting your boons ripped off and becoming a cc ragdoll or eating more damage (protection ripped off). However taking that risk will not only net you more passive healing, but an opportunity to stack up more ally boons on self (now that they are no longer denied) to use for another healing burst on exit!Also the boonstrip protection on exit will happen only when you exit shroud via pressing F1. If you let your life force get depleted to 0, you get nothing! Same for scourges - they can't leave their desert shroud on their own, it just runs out, so they get no exit bonus of unholy sanctuary. Similarly with heal - 6s desert shroud doesn't let them camp it and get huge passive heal for every extra second while shrouded.

That is deliberate. Scourges have no issues healing through barrier, and have ample amount of boons compared to reaper and core. They don't need that much power from this trait.

Well, don't be afraid to drop some feedback, it's what this thread is for!

I'm fine with putrid defense and reaper's protection but unholy sanctuary have an effect which hurt a bit group play in PvE and the necromancer don't need to be hurt in PvE. Why not settle for something like the warrior's trait that give a shitload of toughness on stunbreak? A big toughness buff when entering shroud wouldn't be a "bad" thing.

Honestly i don't see this doing very muchThats a nice bone to throw at Putrid defense and reapers protection but it wont accomplish too much.

You proposed adding a while new function to unholy sanctuary and honestly it seems like a disastrous idea. Not in the sense that it would be overpowered or anything generally if some one gives you boons you want to keep them not eat them. Its support conflicting and anet has done its best to remove mechanics like that form the gameFor example the old Rev Mallyx elite skill got changed because people cried about how allies would cleanse conditions off of them when the whole point of the elite was to copy conditions on you to foes around you.

My other issues is that you didn't throw bones or change proposals to some of the minor traits that you are stuck with and serve little to no purpose or could provide a better more unique way of helping provide death magic perform its idea role. Specifically traits like.

• Soul Comprehension (this one especially)
• Beyond the Veil

These are minors that dont do very much for their seating placements in the line and you are stuck with them.

@Dadnir.5038

This line already has a big toughness buff - the corrupter's fervor along with 180 tougness when in shroud. Total 480 tougness you can get for free when shrouded. Plus 20 for each minion if you trait for it.

Also Unholy Sanctuary is designed this way to protect party play. Imagine a necro that gets like 10 stab stacks from allies (mesmer and guard for example), resistance (mesmer and rev) and now he just sealed them up, no one can remove them. That would be beyond broken.

For that reason ally boons are to be destroyed (with a payout) and only necro's own boons shielded. That way balance is not broken as his own boonset is designed with his strenghths and weaknesses in mind.

And if you're in a raid, or organized PvE group - it is very unlikely you would pick death magic, let alone unholy sanctuary in the first place! In raid you pick spec lines that offer maximum damage or maximum party utility. Death magic meets none of these cryteria.

In other PvE content in general having your boons ripped is almost non-existant threat. You would sooner trait Death Nova or corrupter's fervor in such a case. Not to mention most of the time PvE is a solo endevour so ally boons aren't that big of a factor at all.

@"ZDragon.3046"

As mentioned in my reply to Dadnir - ally boons have to go, because if you could lock boons you're not supposed to get on your own at all, or at least not in huge abundance (stab, resistance) you could become unbeliveable menace. Yet without such a mechanic, especially in competitive we're down to "cc ragdoll" scenario, even if you're playing reaper. Too many enemies can remove your boons, and necro cannot just go "meh, whatever" at losing his stab or protection and keep recasting it every 3 seconds, or filling the void with dodges/blocks/invlunies.

Therefore this trait offers another choice i find very complelling for necro players:

• rely on allies and choose not to slot Unholy Sanctuary (after all it is not a minor trait, you're not forced to pick it).
• rely on yourself and choose it for moments when your own boons will stick with you no matter what.

About other traits:

• Beyond the veil - I have no issue with this trait whatsoever, i actually consider it a highlight. Death magic by design is great for making shroud builds, which suffer windows of vulnerablity when returning to base form. Some free protection on shroud exit is a very good minor for this line. More over with my Unholy Sanctuary it would receive protection from being removed. Excellent news for competitive necros that are almost always bursted after they drop shroud so they don't have time to gain lifeforce and shroud up again.

• Soul comprehension - didn't think about this one, but i will. Will update when i have solid idea for it.

I would combine the current Reaper's Protection into SR's Fear of Death and use the open slot in DM for your version.

For Putrid Defense, I would rather it be an AoE that consumes poison from allies in exchange for health. No CD but only active the first 3 seconds of shroud.

Deadly Strength should also affect allies within range like Vampiric Presence. An AoE power-stat buff could make up for DM's drag on dps.

Death Nova - add capability to sacrifice minions if their skill is on cool down, which would not change Bone Minions or Flesh Wurm but would allow the player to force Death Nova on the rest.

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:As mentioned in my reply to Dadnir - ally boons have to go, because if you could lock boons you're not supposed to get on your own at all, or at least not in huge abundance (stab, resistance) you could become unbeliveable menace. Yet without such a mechanic, especially in competitive we're down to "cc ragdoll" scenario, even if you're playing reaper. Too many enemies can remove your boons, and necro cannot just go "meh, whatever" at losing his stab or protection and keep recasting it every 3 seconds, or filling the void with dodges/blocks/invlunies.

Then thats a boon spam issue and the amount of boon spam needs to be culled around the board

Therefore this trait offers another choice i find very complelling for necro players:

• rely on allies and choose not to slot Unholy Sanctuary (after all it is not a minor trait, you're not forced to pick it).
• rely on yourself and choose it for moments when your own boons will stick with you no matter what.

Adding a mechanic like this to necros kit to eat others boons for the reasons you have listed here is not a viable way to fix the problems you have listed. Many other professions can already boon sustain without an ally to give them the boons. Necromancer is certainly not one of those professions. While death magic does not need to give necromancer boons to give it more sustain your idea is very conflicting with just general gameplay. What happens if the necromancer is at full hp and in shroud and the exit in the middle of battle. (Boons just got wasted and you dropped your only viable soft defense exposing yourself in the heat of battle.) Its just a conflicting concept. Not to mention a good way to annoy players who actually want to play boon support professions.

In all honestly the only thing Unholy needs is a better numbers on its current mechanic possibly higher numbers specifically with reaper equipped sense its a melee based shroud which puts you in more danger.

If you want this trait to be a risk reward trait in its play style thats fine and dandy. But you are making proposing the mechanic specifically because you hate the idea that an ally supporting a necro could be a "Unbelievable menace" which is a unacceptable way of thinking when proposing idea to help something rather than hurt it.

About other traits:

• Beyond the veil - I have no issue with this trait whatsoever, i actually consider it a highlight. Death magic by design is great for making shroud builds, which suffer windows of vulnerablity when returning to base form. Some free protection on shroud exit is a very good minor for this line. More over with my Unholy Sanctuary it would receive protection from being removed. Excellent news for competitive necros that are almost always bursted after they drop shroud so they don't have time to gain lifeforce and shroud up again.

It could use something more in all honesty. Perhaps increased protection effectiveness in exchange for the minion protection (that protection wont help the minions at all they die just as fast in competitive and will live just as long in pve where they dont take much damage in the first place)

@Anchoku.8142 said:For Putrid Defense, I would rather it be an AoE that consumes poison from allies in exchange for health. No CD but only active the first 3 seconds of shroud.

Deadly Strength should also affect allies within range like Vampiric Presence. An AoE power-stat buff could make up for DM's drag on dps.I really like this idea sadly each profession only gets one aura share

Death Nova - add capability to sacrifice minions if their skill is on cool down, which would not change Bone Minions or Flesh Wurm but would allow the player to force Death Nova on the rest.

Interesting concepts you have here

@"Anchoku.8142" some good ideas there. The fear part is indeed sticking out like a sore thumb. I just didn't want to take a fear cast from a necro since terror builds are already not doing too hot, but getting it outta here and merging the "fear 4 fear" aspect with Soul Reaping's trait is something i can get behind.

As for putrid defense tbh what i feel is really lacking is a way to apply poison. Necro is a special beast in regard to condies. Even power necro has a use for damaging condies, and this trait should be one of them. If not for damage of condition itself, then for damage mitigation from this trait and healing reduction. But currently i got no good idea how to make this trait apply the poison it needs in a way that will be balanced and functional.

Deadly Strength is a no go, least not the way you'd like it. If you introduce now power boosting party buff to the meta, devs will have either curb warrior (his banner of strength or Empower Allies) or curb everyone's damage across the board because that would be changing the top dps for all power builds, and current #1 dps of all is power spellbreaker (the irony). Not to mention they would probably do something nasty to Necro for having such strong party utility...

Some time ago i suggested instead adding a hard cc duration reduction to it, like rune of melandru's. So that we have some passive anti-cc in here. If it's damage you want for Death magic - yes adding that would greatly boost it's viability. But you'd need another method of doing that.

Death Nova - an excellent idea! One thing that absolutely sucks about this trait is that you can only detonate some of your minions while others die "when and where it happens". Being able to manually decide when to trigger is is abrilliant idea!

@ZDragon.3046 - soul comprehension change added to first post :)

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:And if you're in a raid, or organized PvE group - it is very unlikely you would pick death magic, let alone unholy sanctuary in the first place! In raid you pick spec lines that offer maximum damage or maximum party utility. Death magic meets none of these cryteria.

In other PvE content in general having your boons ripped is almost non-existant threat. You would sooner trait Death Nova or corrupter's fervor in such a case. Not to mention most of the time PvE is a solo endevour so ally boons aren't that big of a factor at all.

Ok, let's look at it differently, let's assume that a new e-spec grant the necromancer the necessary tools to be wanted as a tank. Then you'd want to take DM which is the defense traitline. With your change this trait would be a no go, because, like I said, it hurt teamplay and like you said, each sliver of damage are essential in organized PvE. I also disagree with your restricted view of open world PvE, group event are the main thing that make player doing openworld PvE and while each sliver of dps might not be important, you still lose out more than you gain by taking this trait.

And then, let's look at solo play in openworld PvE or even dungeon or fractal. Your suggestion is totally useless there since you'd have only your own boons and thus nothing to "eat". The trait need to be usefull outside of WvW where the necromancer is already seen as an overpowered lazy easy peasy noob profession.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 soul comprehension change added to first post :)Soul Comprehension - change the name to corrupter's protection - when you're under effect of protection, reduce condition damage taken by 10%.

Does this not already exist via Corrupter's Fervor unless you intended to allow both to stack together which if you did thats an alright proposal too.

If it was up to me though Soul Comprehension would become the boon extension mechanic you are looking to add into unholy (only working with self applied boons) and unholy would just get a numbers adjustment. Just my personal opinion on the matter.

Soul Comprehension is a free spot for almost any idea just waiting to take its place

@ZDragon.3046 yes- i'm well aware of corrupter's fervor - that is the reason passive has 10% condi damage reduction and not more - to not overshadow this grandmaster trait. It's intented to stack or act as poor man's corrupter's ferver when choosing a different grandmaster trait.

I honestly think boon eating is a very fun and unique idea, especially in terms of necro - the profession that does unthinkable and unholy things to boons and condies alike. Corrupting boons, pulling condies to munch on them like a fresh stake, or convert them to boons...it fits necro.

But all in all it's simply a mechanic of exempting outside boons from being made unremovable. I very much stand by the idea of boon lock for necro - he needs his own, personal way of dealing with boonhate without becoming a generic boon span class like just about anything that's not a thief or necro.

Seems you two ( @ZDragon.3046 & @Dadnir.5038 ) have given green light to another idea of mine. I don't mind the boon munching functionality going elsewhere. Necro is a devourer who will consume enemy's life, condies on himself (consume conditions), condies off allies (Unholy martyr), enemy's death (life force gain)....him munching on even his own boons sounds awesome.

But back to topic at hand. Alternative solution might be that allied boons are not removed, but neither do they get protected. When enemy corrupt/boon rip land on you when you're under sanctuary state, the boons you applied don't appear in their pool of boons to corrupt. So the chance of them stripping ally's boons is increased vs regular scenario when both yours and ally sourced boons are up for getting axed.

A third functionality (if boon munching is not gonna be part of the trait) I was thinking about for Unholy martyr, is condition duration reduction. Like -15% to condition duration when shrouded (next to incremental regen over time aspect0.

Point is to provide another passive anti-condi feature, since necro lacks resistance and should be The profession that can shrug off condi pressure like nothing.

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

• Putrid Defense - being all about passive defenses Death Magic should address one of greatest banes that necro shroud builds face - being poisoned. It's hard enough to heal up when shrouded (unless you're scourge), if you're poisoned things get hairy. Since DM is about passive approach to defense i feel this way of doing things is proper.

• Reaper's Protection - not a lot of protection in the current interation. Also a lot of stunbreak skills are warming the bench because spectral armor is just too good. Adding some protection to them this way will add to their viability and give necros more build diversity.

• Unholy Sanctuary - current iteration is garbage. It's basically pressing F1 for the player with a poor regen when shrouded. Only saving grace is that it can ignore shroud cooldown and pop it regardless.I disagree with your poison argument. Consume Conditions even benefits from poison.

As ususal I prefer simple solutions instead of complex reworks which have the potential to create even more problems.

Death Magic has one major issue: It's too weak in general. Every other traitline outperforms it significantly. At the same time the traitline does not stand the actual level of powercreep in the game. As a result ANet should just double the effect of every trait in that line, except (!) the condi cleanse which is already okay.

Minor:

• double toughness (360)

Major:

• double power increase (14, 28%) (Side Note: 28% seems to sound much, but the damage potential of Spite and Soul Reaping - and you have to drop one for Death Magic - is still much higher!)

Grandmaster:

• double protection duration (6s)
• double damage reduction (-4% condi damage / +60 toughness per stack)
• double regeneration (260/s)

-> traitline fixed!

Simple solutions don't mean jack if they're not smart...and yours...

• double tougness - tougness has diminishing returns (as does vitality). If you're running a 0 toughness build, getting extra 180 from trait upgrade is a slight defense upgrade. If you're already running a high toughness build, result will be miliscule.

• double power boost from deathly strength - if you want to make Death magic viable by giving it real attack options it'll again have to be more then just that. Power too has diminishing returns, and necro already amasses insane amounts of raw power with Awaken the Pain and traited Signet of Spite..

• double protection duration won't do much in competitive where boonstrip is vicious. And with concentration you could reach absurd situation of having 100% protection uptime from a minor trait.

• Unholy Sanctuary - double regen would be a start, but the whole design of this regen is garbage. Twice the garbage is still garbage. Here's why it's garbage (yes I will use that word for current interation of this trait a lot). It's a grandmaster/passive regen. In layman's terms:

  • it heals good? BROOO-OOOKEN! You can't let 100% passive heal outdo or match up to active ones or the semi-passives that feed on active actions (blighter's boon, signet of vampirism).
  • it doesn't heal well? GAAA-AAARBAAAGE! It's a grandmaster! It's supposed to be impactful.

Bottom line is, current unholy sanctuary healing design is a failure out of the gate, no matter what numbers you put there. It needs passive, meaningful, powerful healing. But for that to slide from balance perspective it needs to be dependant on player's actions. I needs a chance to fail (you getting knocked outta shroud fast), if it is to be allowed to have chance to succeed (you managed shroud well and receive vastly more powerful regen the longer you drag it out).

In all you said, in my opinion you only hit the mark once. That is by noticing that Death Magic is underperforming and one reason to that might be lack of offense. That is very true. 5 outta seven lines offer meaningful tools for both offense and defense (curses, spite, soul reaping, reaper, scourge). Blood magic doesn't, but it makes up by being only core spec to heavily address party utility (reviving, healing, sharing protection and condi transfer), along with having really good utility traits (banshee's veil, quickening thirst).

Death Magic is indeed drop dead last. No party utility, no real offensive options, no healing (I would refuse to aknowledge Unholy Sanctuary as a meaningful healing option even in spite, let alone the heavily defense oriented Death Magic). Death magic has attack and healing tools in addition to damage mitigation, but they are inconsequential unlike other traitlines.

@"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:Simple solutions don't mean jack if they're not smart...and yours...

• double tougness - tougness has diminishing returns (as does vitality). If you're running a 0 toughness build, getting extra 180 from trait upgrade is a slight defense upgrade. If you're already running a high toughness build, result will be miliscule.Not every trait and traitline is designed to fit in every build. And I don't see a problem in scaling. Everything scales relatively. 25 Might on 1000 power has more impact than 25 Might on 2500 power.

• double power boost from deathly strength - if you want to make Death magic viable by giving it real attack options it'll again have to be more then just that. Power too has diminishing returns, and necro already amasses insane amounts of raw power with Awaken the Pain and traited Signet of Spite..Class design!

Every addition to power via traits lets you invest less into power and more more into vita and toughness via gear, which directly benefits your sustain via shroud.

In general a.t.m. Power-Necro is too one-dimensional (burst dependend). Go full zerk or go home! When you go for defensive gear (which is your only sustain option, as you don't have blocks and stuff) you lose every pressure. Try to kill a competent thief or condi-scourge on non-full-zerk gear! You won't. Power-Necro needs more options to stay dangerous when gearing defensively.

Again: Class design!

• double protection duration won't do much in competitive where boonstrip is vicious. And with concentration you could reach absurd situation of having 100% protection uptime from a minor trait.Everything has counters.

• Unholy Sanctuary - double regen would be a start, but the whole design of this regen is garbage. Twice the garbage is still garbage. Here's why it's garbage (yes I will use that word for current interation of this trait a lot). It's a grandmaster/passive regen. In layman's terms:Yes it's garbage. I don't like auto procs. I would rework the trait. But my posting was about "realistic" expectations what ANet is capable of doing. And they don't do reworks that often.

Ehhhh.

Death Magic needs 4 traits changed:Soul Comprehension: Needs to do something. +1% LF/3 seconds while in combat is fine.Flesh of the Master: Roll the toughness into the GM trait; roll the health into the base minion.Necromantic Corruption: Roll the transfer effect into the GM trait; roll the damage into the base minion.Death Nova: Take all that stuff that got rolled into it:You gain 20 Toughness for each minion under your control, and minions will periodically take conditions from you. Whenever one of your Minions strikes a foe, it transfers one of its conditions to them. Whenever one of your minions dies, or whenever you are downed, create a Death Nova at its location. Whenever you kill a foe, summon a Jagged Horror.I know it's a long trait but it's a GM and I don't see any reason to be afraid of a big GM trait.

Even if they put nothing back in to replace Flesh of the Master/Necromantic Corruption the tree would be better.There is no difference for non-MM Death Magic as these traits are useless for you anyway.Minion Masters can now pick two of the other perks, including the nice Death Nova/Putrid Defense synergy that you couldn't take before.

I don't care what they put in the top row to replace Flesh of the Master/Necromantic Corruption, but some good defensive boon application would be neato. Necromancers don't have a +concentration trait outside of Scourge.