Do you think Elementalist class "balancing" is justified? - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Do you think Elementalist class "balancing" is justified?

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  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

    Fun facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    I will give you the same challenge I posted to someone else above:
    Take any "meta" DPS build and make ZERO changes to it and go fight Istari (the first boss of episode 3) it takes 3 minutes to get to her with a new character.
    Tell me the results. If you record it on youtube/twitch/whatever even better.

    I think we all know the answer, and that is Weaver would be the simply hardest to beat that boss, if at all, using only the "meta" build. Meanwhile, Soulbeast, Dragonhunter, Scourge, Holosmith and Renegade I found it cheap to win (those are professions I tried), there was literally no trouble at all, using simply the meta dps build. I might be a bad Weaver, or really good at all those others, but I doubt it.

    The argument "Elementalist is at the top of the DPS, it needs to do lower DPS so other builds can shine" is ridiculous considering surviving as an Elementalist is ages harder than with anything else. And it shows clearly when you are alone, fighting story bosses. But yes let's nerf Elementalists at the one and only thing they can do, now we'll have easy to play, easy to survive builds also do the highest DPS. Really fun times.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

    Fun facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    Your an idiot.

    I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

    Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

    If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

    Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

    Fun facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    I will give you the same challenge I posted to someone else above:
    Take any "meta" DPS build and make ZERO changes to it and go fight Istari (the first boss of episode 3) it takes 3 minutes to get to her with a new character.
    Tell me the results. If you record it on youtube/twitch/whatever even better.

    I think we all know the answer, and that is Weaver would be the simply hardest to beat that boss, if at all, using only the "meta" build. Meanwhile, Soulbeast, Dragonhunter, Scourge, Holosmith and Renegade I found it cheap to win (those are professions I tried), there was literally no trouble at all, using simply the meta dps build. I might be a bad Weaver, or really good at all those others, but I doubt it.

    The argument "Elementalist is at the top of the DPS, it needs to do lower DPS so other builds can shine" is ridiculous considering surviving as an Elementalist is ages harder than with anything else. And it shows clearly when you are alone, fighting story bosses. But yes let's nerf Elementalists at the one and only thing they can do, now we'll have easy to play, easy to survive builds also do the highest DPS. Really fun times.

    What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

    Are you for real? I used all the other full meta DPS builds (before the patch) to clear the story, I didn't make a single change to my builds. Yet, for the Weaver specifically I made changes. Try the challenge after the new meta builds are out, I have a feeling that most of the other professions will still use their full DPS builds in story instances, while Weavers will need to "adapt".

    The game isn't only about Raids and what you do in big groups with full synergy. Some around here tend to forget that.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

    Fun facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    Your an idiot.

    I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

    Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

    If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

    Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

    You are downrating the elementalist way to much. In a proper healing build, tempest is still only second to revenant in healing output, whatever the gamemode. In PvE, elementalist is still best pick against large target and have dominated PvE dps since core, only occasionnally seeing a bit of competition that never last long. Bunkering a point contribute to your party progress in PvP, it's part of the teamwork. I can understand that not everyone like to do so, yet this is a valid role.

  • Mini Crinny.6190Mini Crinny.6190 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

    Fun facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    Your an idiot.

    I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

    Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

    If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

    Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

    You are downrating the elementalist way to much. In a proper healing build, tempest is still only second to revenant in healing output, whatever the gamemode. In PvE, elementalist is still best pick against large target and have dominated PvE dps since core, only occasionnally seeing a bit of competition that never last long. Bunkering a point contribute to your party progress in PvP, it's part of the teamwork. I can understand that not everyone like to do so, yet this is a valid role.

    Is that why in WvW there are no tempests and loads of Firebrands?, Again sitting on 1 point while your team is outnumbered does not help your team Druid offers more than Tempest in most Endgame content but Tempest is good on certain bosses

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

    Are you for real? I used all the other full meta DPS builds (before the patch) to clear the story, I didn't make a single change to my builds. Yet, for the Weaver specifically I made changes. Try the challenge after the new meta builds are out, I have a feeling that most of the other professions will still use their full DPS builds in story instances, while Weavers will need to "adapt".

    The game isn't only about Raids and what you do in big groups with full synergy. Some around here tend to forget that.

    In other word, you think chronotank (metabuild) waste their time doing doing the story without changing their build? Same goes for druid or Bannerslave? Who's real here? Do you also expect dungeon soloer to run metabuilds? The game give us the tools to adapt to any situation, no build is meant to be set in stone. Heck! The elementalist is meant to be a flexible profession for player with flexible mind and you suggest something as rigid as a metabuild without change. This is laughable.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @Mini Crinny.6190 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

    Fun facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    Your an idiot.

    I like your argument, it's refreshing and make sense in a lot of way.

    Eles healing output is one of the worst compared to the other healing classes, now I don't know what game mode your talking about but Firebrand, Chrono, Rev and Druid are all better than Tempest in most scenarios Tempest can be better than Druid in PvE but it's situational

    If a Weaver is holding a point in PvP just +1 on another node since the ele ain't going to do anything so you will always outnumber the opposite team

    Both Ele and Necro are bad in PvE, Necro is good in WvW and PvP and Ele is still good in WvW

    You are downrating the elementalist way to much. In a proper healing build, tempest is still only second to revenant in healing output, whatever the gamemode. In PvE, elementalist is still best pick against large target and have dominated PvE dps since core, only occasionnally seeing a bit of competition that never last long. Bunkering a point contribute to your party progress in PvP, it's part of the teamwork. I can understand that not everyone like to do so, yet this is a valid role.

    Is that why in WvW there are no tempests and loads of Firebrands?, Again sitting on 1 point while your team is outnumbered does not help your team Druid offers more than Tempest in most Endgame content but Tempest is good on certain bosses

    Okay, first, bunkering a point have been something done since age but usually not by elementalist, I think this is what bother you. It's not an invalid role and it garantee pips at least.
    Now, about, healing, note that I say "healing". Friebrand provide healing and more than anything boons. Druid is only usefull in PvE for the "extra" that he provide, the healing, in itself, is meh.
    I answered someone saying that the elementalist wasn't good at anything, while in fact it is good, even very good. It's just not the best and unfortunately, there is not enough role for each profession to be be able to be the best at something.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited July 11, 2018
    No

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    What is meta when a balance patch just hit? Each time a balance patch hit, the meta is bound to change. Balance change are not there to confirm a meta but to change it so that player explore different possibilities. I don't get the meaning of challenging people to achieve something based on outdate things. Moreover, meta build typically are builds that inscribe themself in a group synergy, what's the point in using such build out of a group?

    Are you for real? I used all the other full meta DPS builds (before the patch) to clear the story, I didn't make a single change to my builds. Yet, for the Weaver specifically I made changes. Try the challenge after the new meta builds are out, I have a feeling that most of the other professions will still use their full DPS builds in story instances, while Weavers will need to "adapt".

    The game isn't only about Raids and what you do in big groups with full synergy. Some around here tend to forget that.

    In other word, you think chronotank (metabuild) waste their time doing doing the story without changing their build? Same goes for druid or Bannerslave? Who's real here? Do you also expect dungeon soloer to run metabuilds? The game give us the tools to adapt to any situation, no build is meant to be set in stone. Heck! The elementalist is meant to be a flexible profession for player with flexible mind and you suggest something as rigid as a metabuild without change. This is laughable.

    I said "dps meta builds" only. With Weaver I adapt the build for solo play, which means my DPS is no longer the best anymore. With most other builds I don't have to change anything, I use the dps meta build that does the most DPS and have zero problems. All this because those other profession builds have innate defensive abilities, or even passives (health/armor). This means that the "overpowered DPS Weaver" is only such in very limited use cases, mainly static bosses in PVE while you have a big team to support you with heals and buffs, while in every other case possible this awesome DPS Weaver trails behind other builds by a huge margin. Mostly due to survivability issues. But I can understand, there are lots of people who are only looking at raw benchmark numbers and see "hey Weaver is doing too much DPS compared to other builds, let's nerf them", without a single thought about what such nerfs to Weaver would do to any other part of the game. I gave the example of Story mode bosses, but the same can be applied in PVP and WVW too. Balancing for the Raid dps benchmarks isn't a good way to go.

    Edit: Because Raid DPS Benchmarks do not take into account survivability at all, something really important outside Raids.

  • Sahfur.5612Sahfur.5612 Member ✭✭
    edited July 11, 2018
    No

    No. We already had a water 2 nerf that wasn't necessary not long ago but now dual attuning does nothing due to the massive nerf to the trait for healing, as well as screwed our ability to stack swiftness so we could actually get anywhere.. ever... Biggest unjustified wvw nerf I've seen a class get for a while, and one of the biggest nerfs period since warrior got its infinite dodges taken away.. and warrior actually needed it. I was a warrior main at the time so don't call me biased. It was alot of clears we just lost and so going into crowds that have any condis up is much harder. That 1v3 became much, much harder than it is on other classes now.

    This change was so bad, one that gets rid of one of the largest reasons to use weaver (dual attune) and was sort of the whole point.. that I think arenanet balance team now has no grasp of their games balance and am going to stop encouraging friends to play for the foreseeable future and withdraw all monetary support - This is just the kind of a balance change that spells doom. When stuff like this starts happening, it is bad news.

    I will make you [QQ].

  • Guizao.4167Guizao.4167 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    what is wrong with being top dps by a large margin, if other classes have better heals, better condi cleanse, better condi damage, easier condi application, better mobility and stealth?

    Fun facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    This is wrong, you should have written this way:

    False facts:

    • Elementalists condi build outdps necro condi builds.
    • Elementalists heal build have an healing output only second to revenant's heal builds.
    • Elementalists can be build to be as difficult to kill as a sustain warrior.

    Which game mode are you considering? [answer this first before proceeding]

    True facts:
    - Elementalists condition damage builds barely outdps guardian's since we have access to burning and bleeding. In the PvP scenario, mesmers' , guardians' and necros' condition builds performs exquisitely well compared to elementalists'.
    - Elementalists healing power builds don't overperform druids' and firebrands', in any game mode.
    - Elementalists can't be hard to kill even when it's built to be tanky because some of our traits have been nerfed a long time ago and besides that, if an elementalist is built to be tanky, it won't bring much to the table because the profession lacks easy access to hard CC skills and is hard dependent on self-healing, whereas warriors can be much more durable (Rousing Resilience) while maintaining considerable damage and hard CC. (hammer/physical warriors say hello!)

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • tekfan.3179tekfan.3179 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    The nerf is utter kitten.
    The lowest hp-pool of the scholars, lowest armor-rating, long cast-times and skills that root you to the ground.
    A class that's hard to master but rewarding once you do...wasn't this how an Anet-dev once described their vision of the ele? How is that rewarding?
    Same with the condi-engi. Run complex rotations to make just as much damage as everyone else on a dps-build?
    Guardian meta dps is now almost as high as the weaver and the rotation is a joke compared to the weaver. I also get aegis and higher armor-ratings plus more mobility during rotations. Yeah, staff-weaver has higher range, but in order to get the neccessary boons, buffs and healing you need to stack on the boss either way.

  • Xyonon.3987Xyonon.3987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018
    Yes

    I have to be fair here and say yes, a nerf for Weaver was needed. However I also have to say NO it's NOT PERFECT at all.

    That the optimal weaver rotation no longer attunes to air is saddening. It's far more interesting to swap to multiple attunements than just fire fire earth repeat. Maybe they should give the lightning storm a targeting system like the air overload, no diminishing returns in multi hit and make it the base power skill, while fire storm should become pure condi instead.
    I also disagree with the heavy nerf on lava font. Less cd is exciting, the 40% dmg nerf tho - 20% would have justified the lesser cd.

  • BlackBeard.2873BlackBeard.2873 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    This is another case of "golem balance" going on all over these changes, and it really goes to show that the only balance work done was in the safe vacuum of developer vs. immobile golem. They didn't even have the sense to test on a moving golem, while also committing some terrible changes that directly contradict past directions.

    The good:

    • Front-loading some of the damage from lava font

    The bad:

    • Stealth nerf to ele attunement: now double attuning gets you a MASSIVE 1 boon over 10s...in other words....NEVER double-attune.
    • Elements of Rage: they previously updated all traits that converted a defensive trait into an offensive one...and now they modify this trait to turn a defensive trait into ...an offensive one....this is a terrible change that makes the trait useless. Adjust the numbers...fine, but they might as well just delete this trait now. It is like they think eles can have a build that has a ton of vitality to get ferocity, without having reliable access to fury in arcana anymore and ignoring the healing power is still more important....completely tone deaf to think some kind of high-vitality, close-range body-banger build will dominate.
    • Blanket nerf to lava font damage destroying rotations of weaver (now you mostly camp fire), and nerfing non-weaver staff builds.
    • The nerfs to sword targeting behind, and "buffs" to useless double-attuned skills. They still don't get that sword is an inherently flawed weapon.

    I really don't mind if they wanted to nerf the damage of weaver. They should have done this, not by nerfing core ele skills like lava font, but by hitting those large damage modifiers stacked into weaver, and instead giving it proper traits to be a melee attacker.

    The key problem with weaver, since its release, is that the designer never really had a clear understanding of what it was supposed to do. Weaver has all these stupidly large damage modifiers to make up for sword damage being pathetic....Get rid of the modifiers and make sword stronger. Give sword proper leaps to stick to enemies, and give eles a better conjure mechanic to deal with the fact that they are 100% range-locked. I hate running sword in general-purpose PvE, b/c it makes you useless against all the melee hate without the proper utilities to just stick there or properly pop in, dump damage, and get out (like a sword thief).

    Oh well, enough rant for me, this game is pretty bad anyway...glad they have kept killing it more and more!

  • Dahir.4158Dahir.4158 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @Titan.8215 said:
    I've been playing ele since 2012 release, and I've lived all the nerfs along the way.
    But we are on 2018 now, and I want to give my thoughts about the last nerf. Weaver was designed to be a pretty good dmg spec (this was said for a dev), they kitten up the heals and the little sustain that we had on tempest, to just go into a spec with full dmg, lacking all type of support. Weaver at launch was too high dmg, they nerfed it anyway, I think that nerf was "ok". Introducing a ICD for Meteor shower was annoying, changed it to dmg reduction per hit, was more annoying, cause you don't feel rewarded for channeling it at all, which "channeling" is hard sometimes in raid.
    Weaver has a complex rotation and if you play it at high skill you get high rewards (not now, before nerf), yeah, its have a lots of burst, but most of the ppl don't keep the dmg up, and a lot of them ends the battles with mediocre dps (here is the difference between normal weaver / good weaver)
    It's a spec without cc, no survivability, cloth + min. HP, almost all enemies npc just kill you from 1-2 hits, also it's have some channeling skills like MS that requires to stay on site casting them. I don't understand the nerfs. I think weaver was "fine" after the last nerf with meteor shower reduction dmg, it was still strong on huge hitboxes, but on small wasn't the best choice. I've seen other classes doing almost the same dps, with an easiest rotation.
    I like elementalist/tempest/weaver since launch, but the nerfs are just to dissapoint. No justification, no buffs to other weapons (sword its bad, and going full melee with full glass canon class without some kind of survivability isn't a good idea).
    Instead of all of this, they buffed thief, with a stupid rotation, which spamming 1 button most of the rotation, you get 38-39k easy, while doing hard rotation on weaver, bring you to 33k on small/38k on huge (also golem isn't raid or fractal where you can stay free casting, so dps will be lower).

    Sorry for the big text and sorry if some of you don't agree, but I just think that we got injustificated nerfs for weaver, and I love this game, but killing my class it's just make me sad and with no gains to still playing till they revert the fun, or at least give weaver the love it need.
    I'm tired of this balance team, no justifications, no speak with community, only partners have access to test-realm (and most of them have 0 idea in raid/fractals terms) so they just balance on his way, with no feedback. And now we have to wait for others 3 months to another patch in which probably we'll get another nerfs for weaver.

    Sorry for my english. Good day.

    I agree with this so much. Fix your mess, developers, and read the forums for once. Some interaction wouldn’t go amiss.

    Learn from your co-worker, Ben, who frequently interacts with forum users in the WvW section. Maybe then you’d understand the real problems this class and elite spec has, instead of nerfing it into the ground for no apparent reason.

    Broski Supreme - Borsk Carry Effect

  • Knuckle Joe.7408Knuckle Joe.7408 Member ✭✭✭
    No

    @Bearbrunt.4196 said:
    While I don't want ele dps "buried," I think the changes were justified. I'm all for closing the longstanding damage gaps between overperforming/underperforming classes and leveling out the playing field (for all classes).

    In some past cases, ele has been able to pull up to 50% more dps than the most underperforming class. While a reasonable argument can be made for ele to do more damage than other classes, I don't think it can be given as much credence when they've for so long, easily been able to outperform other classes by a such a huge margin. At times (and even now, looking at the numbers post nerf) they're able to consistently pull 25-40% more damage than other underperforming classes/builds.

    Ele (and a couple other classes) have had too much damage potential for a long time. Either that, or underperforming classes have had far too little damage potential. Honestly, I think there is too much damage in the game to begin with, so I'm all for scaling the top-end back (not just eles).

    For the record, I really don't think this poll is going to be impartial, since the majority of the users that browse this section of the forum are ele goons.

    The thing is that this way of thinking about the nerfs is a bit flawed. By that logic, if you feel the need that ele's damage has to be scaled down to be equal of the other professions, then the other way around works as well. Eles can say that they need to bring down the HP of a warrior (or increase the ele's) to close the gap of survivability, because at the end of the day, if you are doing the same amount of damage as a Warrior who has 15k more HP and way more armor, why take ele? Or if a thief is making several k's more DPS than you with a rotation that uses a whopping total of 3 buttons, why bother learning weaver's stupidly precise/complicated ones?

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    Yes regarding WvW. By tuning down overall long range damage with nerfs to dhuumfire, lava fonts, CoR etc, they push WvW to what it is supposed to be; gamemode of coordination.

    Theres no space in WvW for full damage casters that play solo anymore. Wanna kill something? Bomb with other players. Weaver was overtuned regarding damage, before PoF there was actual ranged tags where eles worked together to kill groups of enemies.

    Regarding PvE, they most likely wanted to push people in raids lower in damage just to slow down the easymode powercreep in the game a bit. So they tuned down epi, meteor and lava font. Completely fine reasoning.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, loudmouth, tryhard
    Making Desolation great again/Alt somewhere
    Diamond Legend

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Regarding PvE, they most likely wanted to push people in raids lower in damage just to slow down the easymode powercreep in the game a bit. So they tuned down epi, meteor and lava font. Completely fine reasoning.

    And introduce a 40k deadeye at the same time. Riiiight.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

    And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

    And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

    The problem is there's a 39k deadeye on small.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

    And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

    The problem is there's a 39k deadeye on small.

    And i said it before. Try the rotation. That rifle rotation is not something useful in a boss fight at all. Shots can get blocked by adds, dodges at wrong times can destroy your rotation. Movement in general drops your dps to 33k and below. Try it yourself on golem.
    You justified weavers high damage with meteor channel time in previous threads. Rifle DE is like channeling meteors the entire fight. You can't sidestep OR dodge without huge dps drops. You will also constantly dodge out of chrono wells.
    The rifle rotation is not faceroll at all. It doesn't have a complex pattern like condi engi but it has very strict timings and positioning is not easy with it.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    Because the 38k weaver rotation you can use everywhere? Oh right, only Samarog is classified as huge. Oh right, he has invuln phases... as do most of the bosses. Oh right, you get your conjures stolen...

    And invuln phases affect only weaver? They affect condi way more than power builds. 33k dps on small is still holo level.

    The problem is there's a 39k deadeye on small.

    And i said it before. Try the rotation. That rifle rotation is not something useful in a boss fight at all. Shots can get blocked by adds, dodges at wrong times can destroy your rotation. Movement in general drops your dps to 33k and below. Try it yourself on golem.
    You justified weavers high damage with meteor channel time in previous threads. Rifle DE is like channeling meteors the entire fight. You can't sidestep OR dodge without huge dps drops. You will also constantly dodge out of chrono wells.
    The rifle rotation is not faceroll at all. It doesn't have a complex pattern like condi engi but it has very strict timings and positioning is not easy with it.

    And I've said it before - you can say the same about weaver. But it does 20% less dps.

  • Omnicron.2467Omnicron.2467 Member ✭✭✭
    edited July 12, 2018
    No

    I do not play Ele, but been thinking about this and I never minded Staff Weavers being able to lay down all the AOE damage and stack them for best DPS. I did not mind for three reasons
    1. The rotation was complex and rewarding as it should be
    2. It only worked on bosses who remained stationary, and only with good group support. For mobile enemies other professions did better
    3. I have done many raids without elementalists, they are not needed to clear any content

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.
    Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

    Sure. Nevermind the conjures. Nevermind pre-placing them 30 seconds ahead so you could pick them up. Nevermind getting them stolen by pugs. Nevermind the risk to get interrupted on MS. Nevermind the ground-targeted areas which the target needs to stay in. It's worth nothing, right? Let the kitless holo which only needs to sync two skills with their heat bar output the same damage, right? Here's an idea - let's bring back power herald. Let them do 50k on sword auto.

    Kitless holo does 30k at best. Power ren does like 31-32k. the 33k+ Holo rotation has 2 kits and leaves forge at 50%. Ground target areas is only a problem at matt. In fact lower lava font cd and damage punishes it even less now.
    Professions shouldn't be balanced with pug intelligence in mind. Actually whenever a pug steals conjures there is a high chance that the player has no clue what he is doing.
    Every kitless holo i saw in pug raids had utter garbage dps. There was at most one sword holo that was decent. But he played with kits.

    You make it sound like Weaver is on Power reaper level now. It is not. Weaver has top dps on large and medium dps on small. Also weaver has super strong burst with strong sustained damage.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.
    Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

    Sure. Nevermind the conjures. Nevermind pre-placing them 30 seconds ahead so you could pick them up. Nevermind getting them stolen by pugs. Nevermind the risk to get interrupted on MS. Nevermind the ground-targeted areas which the target needs to stay in. It's worth nothing, right? Let the kitless holo which only needs to sync two skills with their heat bar output the same damage, right? Here's an idea - let's bring back power herald. Let them do 50k on sword auto.

    Kitless holo does 30k at best. Power ren does like 31-32k. the 33k+ Holo rotation has 2 kits and leaves forge at 50%. Ground target areas is only a problem at matt. In fact lower lava font cd and damage punishes it even less now.
    Professions shouldn't be balanced with pug intelligence in mind. Actually whenever a pug steals conjures there is a high chance that the player has no clue what he is doing.
    Every kitless holo i saw in pug raids had utter garbage dps. There was at most one sword holo that was decent. But he played with kits.

    You make it sound like Weaver is on Power reaper level now. It is not. Weaver has top dps on large and medium dps on small. Also weaver has super strong burst with strong sustained damage.

    How does weaver have top dps on large when it's huge hitbox benchmark is lower than deadeye's small hitbox one? No, weaver is not top dps. Actually even before this patch condi berserker could benchmark higher. And on small? You get to be middle of the pack for the most complex playstyle out there. Great incentive. Totally feels rewarding, right?

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭
    Yes

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    And on small? You get to be middle of the pack for the most complex playstyle out there.

    Wait what? It's just slightly more complex than Holo now. Maybe even easier.

  • Feanor.2358Feanor.2358 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    And on small? You get to be middle of the pack for the most complex playstyle out there.

    Wait what? It's just slightly more complex than Holo now. Maybe even easier.

    Riiiight. Conjures are still there. Ground-targeted aoes too. I'm an ele main, but I do play other classes from time to time.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:
    And I've said it before - you can say the same about weaver. But it does 20% less dps.

    You can freely move during all of weaver stuff except for meteor channel. Adds can't bodyblock anything because even your projectiles deal area damage.
    The lava font nerf was maybe slight overkill but weaver needed nerfs to get back in line.
    Stacking 2-3 weavers in fracs was common and in raids it was either stack mirage, weaver or scourge. Now we can have some diversity again. Thanks to kitten cleave, stacking DE is maybe something you can do for a record run but not something you want for your weekly run.

    Weaver rotation is not rocket science. Fire -> Earth -> Fire -> Fire with long channels doesn't justify being top everywhere.
    Weaver needed to be nerfed for pve balance. Maybe they just overdid it with lava font but overall having a ranged top dps area dps that has also the best burst in the game is not something healthy for the balance state.

    Most of the ele skill and weaver skills are bodyblock skills..

    Why did ele need a 40% dmg nerf to lava font in pvp?

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • No

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Threather.9354 said:
    Regarding PvE, they most likely wanted to push people in raids lower in damage just to slow down the easymode powercreep in the game a bit. So they tuned down epi, meteor and lava font. Completely fine reasoning.

    And introduce a 40k deadeye at the same time. Riiiight.

    Deadeye is single target only, requires either high flanking or a stationary golem without any movement. The 39k rifle rotation is not something you can use in raids very often. Just slight errors or a dodge out of rotation and you lose a lot of dps. Its like channeling meteor but for the length of the entire fight.
    D/d will be the preferable rotation out of record attempts. Still 38k but again low to no cleave.

    Compare that to ele. Cleaves the entire area while doing damage. Ele still has 33/38k dps. STILL ahead of condi engi and way easier to play if you want to go for complexety argument again.
    And guess what. Weaver will most likely still be #1 in fracs and preferable on some raid bosses. It's just not #1 by a land slide anymore.
    Try stacking deadeyes on xera or sloth. Adds will just murder you while stacking weavers is not a problem at all if you bring some cc on druids/warrs/chronos.

    people play more than raids or fracs and I don't care about deadeye being as good in raids or not.

    What I care about is a deadeye that can oneshot everyone OUT OF STEALTH with no defense against it whatsoever. He just has to wait for you to pop all your evades and blocks... and then kills you.

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    Moving numbers up and down is not proper "balance" in a game as shallow, cookie-cutter and rotation-heavy as GW2. The worst thing that they could have done is nerf the only class set-up in the game that isn't entirely reliant on "select target -> spam everything." I know the circles are titanic and sort of impossible to miss (especially in PvE), but at least a player still had to manually place them in an appropriate area (which means that there is still technically some room for user error). They just randomly nerfed the only set-up in the entire game which truly require a player to use their brain on any level (it wasn't mentally demanding, but it still at least twitched a few neurons).

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

    hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

    Mkay? Anything else to say?

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • No

    @Feanor.2358 said:

    @Naustis.8510 said:
    Perfect patch. They bring down Ele from being OP to be on pair with other classes. At least here Anet devs made a good decision :)

    PS. To people who are saying Ele is garbage now. You just were nerfed to the point where you don't outdps 2nd best spec by 20-30% ;) weaver is still fine with 37k dps

    It would be perfect if the other classes required the same amount of effort to be on par, not 3 times less.

    Also, the TOP DPS on SC was NOT an Ele, even on large targets.
    So why the nerf?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

    hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

    Mkay? Anything else to say?

    I hate to say it he got a point the same thing happen when tempest was out core ele got destroyed its only gotten worst for core ele with weaver out. There not much hope out there any more for these things. Weaver going to be comply destroyed once the next elite spec comes out and core ele will be worthless as a class. Tempest was dead on arrival for the most part as any thing it was the lack of other classes at the time that made tempest viable as a support class (no healing was in the game but now there is).

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • TheQuickFox.3826TheQuickFox.3826 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

    hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

    Mkay? Anything else to say?

    I hate to say it he got a point the same thing happen when tempest was out core ele got destroyed its only gotten worst for core ele with weaver out. There not much hope out there any more for these things. Weaver going to be comply destroyed once the next elite spec comes out and core ele will be worthless as a class. Tempest was dead on arrival for the most part as any thing it was the lack of other classes at the time that made tempest viable as a support class (no healing was in the game but now there is).

    I'm not saying @Swagg.9236 does not have a point, I'm saying that in the way he tries to communicate his point fails to reach me.

    When you say that the core Elementalist was outperformed by the Tempest and both the Core Ele and Tempest were outperformed as soon as the Weaver was released, I agree with you. And that is why I suggested some serious improvements to the Core Elementalist and Tempest to make them competitive again and not just some tiny niche builds.

    Elementalist was originally designed as the most versatile profession of all. Earth for defence, bleeding survivability and tanking, water for healing, air for speed, control and single target damage and fire for nuking / raw damage. Choose and combine as you like. In my opinion, we don't have this now and this is a bit of a miss.
    On the other side: I as a more casual-ish style player am not an expert of this matter, but I think I still have a point when I say that it would be welcome of the Elementalist would have a lot more versatility than the current metabattle builds.

    Ascalon Will Prevail!

    GW Wiki user page | GW2 Wiki user page

  • Swagg.9236Swagg.9236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    No

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:

    @Quasar.1756 said:

    @TheQuickFox.3826 said:
    No, I'm still waiting for some serious improvements to both Core Elementalist and Tempest.

    hahahhahahahahhahahahhahahahahhahahahahhahahaha, You used "IMPROVEMENTS", "Elementalist" and "Tempest" in the same sentence....hahahhahhahahahhahahahahaha, the funny part is, the way we keep getting hit, it's just as funny to add "Weaver" to that statement and laugh at it, hahahhahahahhahahahhahahhahahh

    Mkay? Anything else to say?

    I hate to say it he got a point the same thing happen when tempest was out core ele got destroyed its only gotten worst for core ele with weaver out. There not much hope out there any more for these things. Weaver going to be comply destroyed once the next elite spec comes out and core ele will be worthless as a class. Tempest was dead on arrival for the most part as any thing it was the lack of other classes at the time that made tempest viable as a support class (no healing was in the game but now there is).

    I'm not saying @Swagg.9236 does not have a point, I'm saying that in the way he tries to communicate his point fails to reach me.

    When you say that the core Elementalist was outperformed by the Tempest and both the Core Ele and Tempest were outperformed as soon as the Weaver was released, I agree with you. And that is why I suggested some serious improvements to the Core Elementalist and Tempest to make them competitive again and not just some tiny niche builds.

    And the remaining point is that GW2 is fundamentally too shallow as a game to provide much for any of the "sub-par" specs other than just arbitrary bumps to DPS numbers. Every possible niche has already been filled at least twice over. At this point, we're just seeing team-buffs stack over and over on top of each other. It's stuff like the old Grace of the Land buff which demonstrates empirically how this game was built too shallowly: by the first expansion, the game had already forcibly outgrown it's own universal buff system (which is trash) by tacking on random passive buffs generated by unique classes. I'm not saying that the old Grace of the Land buff wasn't bad--I thought it was a step in the right direction if it lead to a general restructuring of the garbage boon/condition systems--but the fact that it existed at all (along with things like banners and the other in-combat passives like Spotter) really demonstrated how GW2 had hit its cap in playstyles and interesting mechanics long before the first expac even launched.

    If you want "serious improvements" to any of the specs, you honestly have to rework the entire trait system (again lol), cull all of the game's bloat (which is honestly about 70%+ of the game's skills and gear) and rework the classes into things that actually provide unique benefits to a team structure rather than just making all of them into DPS bots with some meme gimmicks on the side.

    Elementalist was originally designed as the most versatile profession of all. Earth for defence, bleeding survivability and tanking, water for healing, air for speed, control and single target damage and fire for nuking / raw damage. Choose and combine as you like.

    Except that Elementalist has only ever played like a typical PvE rotation-style, even within the context of PvP. It was always a matter of smearing a long string of skills together which simultaneously pumped damage and self-preserved until the stream ran out or something really nutty happened like a thief botting in with a billion damage (in which case, one would just pop a magical cantrip like Mist Form or Armor of Earth). That was 2012-13, and it really hasn't changed much since then. Tempest was super rotation heavy, relying on passives and instant-casts to get off easy overloads for self-preservation and damage; Weaver is possibly the worst nowadays in how it's incredibly PvE-tier when it comes to PvP encounter tactics (mostly just island-hopping from evade to evade while spamming damage in between).

    It also spoke volumes about not only the Elementalist's design but also GW2's design on the whole how meta PvE Elementalist has almost exclusively relied only on Fire and Air stances since this game's launch. Even now, it's still the same except now Earth has a random new button which serves as a second lava font (so it might as well just be a boost to Fire rather than anything unique or interesting).

  • Conqueror.3682Conqueror.3682 Member ✭✭✭

    What i want, is to make the rotation simpler, with not so many conjures and stuff, but instead we have the same rotation and now it does less dps.

    i really think that conjures should be reworked, it is ridiculous that our dps depends from these skills. I just hate conjures.

    Fall down seven times, get up eight.

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